Talk:Violet Blue/Archive 2

need help!

Headings need to be better, links need to be placed, references need to be cited, content needs to be filled out, and external links need to be updated. Yeesh, lots o' work to do! Please help, even with one little thingie! --Vcdevx99 23:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Survival Research Labs

I have updated the section on SRL with numerous references to establish her work there.Wikiwikimoore 20:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be some debate about her current status with Survival Research Labs. Since the person or persons repeatedly removing it are contributing anonymously, I can't discuss over their talk pages. It seems that, at least in the past, she was a very active member, and I don't see why that shouldn't be a part of an encyclopedic entry on her, though I only know as much as is available on the SRL website archives. I'm going to restore it with past-tense verbiage, and if there is objection, then it can be discussed here. KathrynA 20:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As some one who has worked with SRL and a close fried of Violet; I can state that Mark Pauline and not a anon editor, 67.188.110.143, is the final word on who is in SRL. Violet has had a long history with SRL, longer then her history writing professionally. This can be seen throughout the SRL web site and in photos the SRL shop and shows. Numerous examples of her on the SRL web site:

first listed in the credits of this 1996 show: http://www.srl.org/phoenix_show.html

listed on *all* of these show DVD and VHS credits as crew:

ran the funhouse bot here: http://www.srl.org/shows/sf_minna96/

ran the inchworm in 1997 austin show: (http://www.srl.org/shows/austin/) http://www.srl.org/shows/austin/preshow/austinpre19.html

ran the inchworm in 1998: http://www.srl.org/shows/web98/postshow.html

1999 Japan show crew: http://www.srl.org/shows/ntt/crew.html

berkeley show 2001 crew, ran the inchworm: http://www.srl.org/shows/berkeley/

amy show, 2002: http://www.srl.org/shows/events/amyshow/images/index.html

zero one, 2002, loaded machines, no online evidence

pulsejet demo 2003 : http://www.srl.org/shows/events/thumb/

webbys 2002, ran the inchworm with todd blair: http://www.srl.org/shows/webbys/4.html

los angeles 2002 post gallery show: http://www.srl.org/shows/la/crew.html

Laughing Squid's Tentacle Sessions #35: the women of SRL 2002: http://www.srl.org/shows/events/tentacle/ http://www.srl.org/shows/events/tentacle/women.html

Tim North benefit, 2003: http://www.srl.org/shows/events/timbenefit/calendar.html

berkeley art museum show 2003, ran the air launcher: http://www.srl.org/shows/bam/

reserach pranks festival 2003: http://www.srl.org/shows/events/pranks/pages/030.htm

SRL 25th year anniversary 2004, ran the merch table and participated in baseball bat soldier activity: http://www.srl.org/shows/events/25/

LA SRL 2005: http://www.srl.org/shows/la2005/crew.html

2006 LA show Fish Boy's Dream: http://www.srl.org/shows/la2006/crew.html

san jose show 2006: http://www.srl.org/shows/sanjose/crew.html

2007 Maker Faire machine demo, ran the running machine: http://www.srl.org/shows/events/makefaire/crew.html

She has even been mentioned on NPR in relation to SRL as noted by Xeni Jardin, who produced the NPR peace, on BoingBoing:

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/04/21/xeni_tech_on_npr_srl.html

Given her long history and the fact that there are references to here involvement in march of this year I think that it is not unreasonable to believe those, such as I, that claim not only was she a member of SRL but can still currently be considered one. Wikiwikimoore 11:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the article needs six references in the SRL section. Your thorough list is here in the discussion if individuals are concerned about it, but I think the earliest and most recent links are enough for the article itself. KathrynA 22:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure if the Laughing Squid page is much of a credible source. The SRL links are original research, see: WP:NOR. The BoingBoing link and associated NPR piece are good sources though for her having been a part of SRL. I will attempt to tweak the SRL section to only rely on established facts from valid sources. Flowersprout 02:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, done. I hope my edit satisfies everyone. Since there seems to be a dispute as to whether or not Blue is currently involved in SRL, there seems no reason to speculate one way or the other. If there are any sources indicating that she is currently part of SRL, let's add those and change it, otherwise I think this is an appropriate compromise. Flowersprout 02:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think that this is much of a comprise, "has worked" is past tense. The dispute is between on anon writer and two people people providing references. The anon author making claims that Violet is not longer working with SRL has no evidence to that effect. I think KathrynA's version was very concise and was more clear on the facts. I would like to revert to that unless some one can give a argument as to why I should not. Flowersprout what is your intrest in this? Your account is brand new and you have only edited Violets page. Wikiwikimoore 06:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Wikiwikimoore, I don't want to be profiled based on the articles I edit, so I create new accounts. You can learn a lot about someone by the articles they edit! The great thing about wikipedia is that so long as everyone follows policies, it doesn't matter if a user is or isn't a sock puppet. That's why it doesn't matter if KathrynA is also a new account that has only edited this article and your talk page. That said, I appreciate your being upfront about your relationship to the subject.

Fine if you want to be private but it is not a good way to endear trust; but I still wonder why you have taken this cause on. The edits you changed were reasonable and cited. Wikiwikimoore 09:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

"Has worked" is an accurate phrase based on the source. "Flowersprout has consumed pizza" is an accurate statement based on a photo of me eating pizza. It does not preclude me from future pizza consumption, but it is more factually grounded than calling me a "pizza eater." SRL, with the exception of Mark Pauline, seems to be a transient collective of artists. It is indisputable that Violet Blue has worked with SRL in the past, that she has worked on the crew of shows, but no where is it documented anywhere that SRL has a standing crew or membership roster or other affiliative mechanisms, nor that Violet Blue is included in such.

"Flowersprout has consumed pizza" implies that Flowersprout is not currently consuming pizza. As I have documented on this discuss page Violet have been involved with SRL on a continual basis for the last eleven years with the most recent being in March of this year, the most current show to date. If we had pictures of Flowersprout eating pizza regularly starting in 1996 with current photos as well, then it would be entirely accurate to state that "Flowersprout has consumed pizza since 1996" which is exactly the form of the copy you removed. Wikiwikimoore 09:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I could add that her blog seems to support the implications that she's had a falling out. But that's beyond the scope of our discussions here. Let's just stick to credible sources and factual statements. Flowersprout 07:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how the entry you edited dose not stick to the facts. "She has been involved as a mechanic, fabricator, and performance artist[3] with Survival Research Labs since 1996." It states the work she has done and when she started with references to back it up. There has been some drama emanating from others at SRL, some who have been, in my opinion, lying to try and get there way; but according to what Mark Pauline has told me in personal conversations that she is still a member. Given that KathrynA's version of the statement includes more information than yours and is entirely backed up with citations. I see no reason to not use it and will revert to it tomorrow unless some one can cite evidence that it is wrong. Wikiwikimoore 09:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to reach a consensus, but I have issues with the current revision. "Mechanized performance art shows" is worded oddly, and "in the past" is trying to establish exclusive past tense participation with no sources, credible or otherwise, to back it up. Also, the SRL website would be a primary source for an article on SRL, but doesn't fall under WP:NOR - There's nothing speculative about a crew roster. Laughing Squid is a fine secondary source for establishing what we're trying to establish - namely, the fact of her participation.

Since there's no actual evidence that she's *not* currently in SRL, I think we shouldn't explicitly state that her involvement was "in the past" - I'm happy leaving it vaguely past tense for now, though it would seem silly to only come and update the page with present tense during an *actual show*.

I really like the "has been a member" wording for that reason. It establishes the past but doesn't necessarily rule out the present. Would it help if we removed "since 1996"? KathrynA 17:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I see not what portion of WP:NOR that states that primary sources are excluded, WP:PSTS explicitly allows them. I would really like it if some respected Wikipidea editor could help resolve this dispute. Of the people commenting now only I and KathrynA have accounts that were not created in the last few days. Given that this started with defacing of the page, even the hole sail removal of all references to SRL, it is hard to know who's opinion to trust. We of course what this entry to meet the standards of wikipedia lets try and resolve this issue and move on to other improvements. Wikiwikimoore 20:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikiwikimoore I think you and your girlfriend Ms. Blue are abusing Wikipedia by using the term "defacing" to disenfranchise the editing process- the WP process that determines if someone is notable, and if their trivial side projects (including who they call "Mom") is encyclopediac. I welcome any editors' input on this. I am sure Ms. Blue's frequent posts to her blog mischaracterizing these edits as vandalism and defacing will result in Some Friendly Editor resolving all of this and feeding into her delusions of internet fame. I resent your mischaracterization and find it even more shocking that you are claiming the high road of "anonymous accounts" while Ms. Blue's Sock Puppet Kathryna has only done edits to this page as well- come on, let's be fair here and remember WP:Civility. There are clear conflicts of interest here, and attempts to warp WP:POV with Original Research, that we should resolve. Also, invoking Mark Pauline's name is disingenuous. Ms. Blue is no longer part of SRL (which should not be a part of this article as it is Original Research). PS Thanks Flowersprout for the BOLDING idea, as this talk page is so hard to follow thanks to an unreasonably large pasted-in list of SRL events. SpiritMovesMee 18:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Has been a member is not established anywhere. It's not clear that SRL has "members". All that is citable is that she has been a member of the crew for various shows. Again: the SRL website is not a citable source and neither are her blogs. Use of primary sources as citations violates WP:NOR. I have included a highly credible source, NPR, to document her participation in SRL, I don't see how any reasonable person could dispute that. This is a frequent problem with bios for less notable people, there is a larger body of things that people "know" about the person than there is interest in the person, thus these "facts" are non-encyclopedic and/or do not have sources. Encyclopedia articles must be entirely comprised of external sources. Flowersprout 18:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm willing to concede on using NPR, but I still think some of the wording should be modified. I'll make another edit based on this, and if we need to we can keep discussing here. KathrynA 19:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikiwikimoore is clearly dating Blue and Kathryna is probably her sock puppet- that being said, I agree on the points above re: Original Research, but I do think it's important to keep a record (on this talk page) of her resignation letter blog post where she publicly resigns from SRL: http://www.tinynibbles.com/blogarchives/2007/05/flameout.html also her past-tense reference to membership at SRL (and thinly veiled criticism) in a recent blog post: http://techyum.com/2007/08/knifehandchopbot.html Good luck figuring all of this out with WP:NOR in mind! SpiritMovesMee 17:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow. This is astounding. Violet Blue has contributed so much to the sex-positive, sex education, and LGBT communities. Her contributions there, alone, make her such a heroine to so many. Her talents in publishing and advocacy are so valued, and so proven. Why all the fuss about something so fringe? It seems to be more of a distraction, than a contribution. For the credibility of our heroine wordsmith, please keep this un-credible drama off of her wikipedia page!! It is just so irrelevant. Whatever may or may not have happened with SRL- please, Violet and wikiwikimoore, take a long stroll through a rose garden, get over it, and look towards the sunshine! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Delbertpk (talk • contribs)

Well, it's not *her* Wikipedia page, it's a page about her. The SRL involvement is notable, so we're sorting through credible sources to back up the involvement. Welcome to Wikipedia! KathrynA 19:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I edited it down to "She has been involved as a machine operator and performance artist with Survival Research Labs," with the NPR source cited. The NPR piece states that she works as a machine operator, and SRL is a performance art group. We could change it to "machine operator with the performance art group, Survival Research Labs", instead, if that makes more sense. Opinions? KathrynA 20:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is good wording but I believe that it should include the 1996 date for her first participation as it can be backed up with links and adds more to information. Wikiwikimoore 20:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the wording "since 1996" implies "to present", which is obviously what's been under debate. Leaving it as "has been involved" neither includes nor excludes the present, so I'm satisfied leaving it without either of those enclosures, at least until sources emerge clarifying present involvement, although of course once that's documented it will have happened in the past.  :-) KathrynA 21:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I think that the entry should include something about the interval of involvement. How about "Beginning in 1996 she has participated in at least 19 events as a machine operator and performance artist with Survival Research Laboratories." I would also like to add additional secondary sources to her involvement. One of or more of the fallowing can be added: Make: Podcast - Survival Research Labs Walkthrough, Wired: Tech Heads Drop Trou for a Friend, SF Weekly: Normal Weekend Wikiwikimoore 22:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikiwikibabyhoneypie, your enthusiasm would so make our girl blush right now, were she to look at this page! The sentence KathrynA crafted is succinct and fabulous. Let's just leave it at that, and focus future additions and edits on Violet's writing and activism- which do seem to be the focus of her efforts these days, according to her blog. delbertpk

Survival Research Labs Alumna

I've started a new talk section due to the previous one being cluttered. I've updated the article to reflect Ms. Blue's Survivial Research Labs alumna status, citing this link: Ms. Blue writes "(the kind of details an SRL alumni like myself would want to know)." EscalanteXP 18:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

notability

Perhaps I'm missing something, but this person doesn't appear to meet WP:BIO. Dstanfor 04:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, all the books mentioned are available on Amazon, and two of the books are ranked ~#1000 there, so she's certainly not unknown by any means. I only know her from her podcast though, maybe somebody else can expand on her notability. --Interiot 04:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I did see that two of her earliest books (the ultimate guide to oral sex ones) showed up if you did a deep search. How'd you find the approximate ranking on amazon? Dstanfor 04:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The two books that ranked highly are her 2002 books. Right below where it mentions the ISBN and #pages and such, there's a "Amazon.com Sales Rank" field. *shrug*

Oh, also her podcast is listed #15 on Yahoo's most popular list (even though the episodes are released sporadically), and while it's not unimaginable that there's a war on podcasts, almost all of the top ~20 podcasts I listen to have an article. --Interiot 04:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

OK then. From that it sounds like she's on the edge of notability, but enough that it's worth keeping around. I'll remove the unencyclopedic tag. Dstanfor 04:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you are missing something. She has is often quoted by the press and reasontly was named in Forbs The Web Celeb 25. She has won a independ award for one of her books IPPY. Her pod cast is on the top of the Yahoo, as noted, and iTunes lists. Has a column in the San Francisco Chronicle's web site, Violet Blue Open Source Sex. Has seventeen books in print some as noted are best sellers. As well as many other accomplishments. Wikiwikimoore 06:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

Would any one object to me filling out more information about Violet Blue? Disclamer: I am close fried of hers. Wikiwikimoore

This article seems to be shaping up just to be a CV rather than a bio. I'm not sure this list of activities is really all that encylopedic or notable. Thoughts? Flowersprout 09:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. It would seem that Mr. Wiki Moore had an episode and set about over-zealously proving a point that was not being disputed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HackerToy (talk • contribs) 18:21, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Personal Info

I intend to translate and transfer this article into the German language Wikipedia. Therefore it would be extremely helpful to get an official birthdate and -place. This shouldn't be to big a problem since a photo is already posted. Once this is done a short notice on my :en user page would be great.--Nemissimo 18:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Blocking WikiWikiMoore

Would any one object to me filling out more information about Violet Blue? Disclamer: I am close fried of hers. Wikiwikimoore

Why is WikiWikiMoore editing this page? He is dating Violet Blue (according to Ms. Blue's blog), all of his edits have been to her wiki page. He is reverting edits that include confirmed biographical information like her real name (Wendi Sullivan Blue) and birthdate (Sept 22, 1970). Can someone please explain this? EscalanteXP 17:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to ignore this discussion as it's clearly unacceptable behavior (editing others' comments and blocking threats) but as I can only assume EscalanteXP is a newbie, I'm going to suggest you take a look at WP:BLP, especially around not using public records (the verifiability of a paid service is even more questionable), Privacy of birthdays, etc. Biographies of Living Persons are obviously a tricky subject, so it may help to read a bit more about it. I honestly don't know if your edits are factually correct or not, but they don't seem to be crucial to the article, could violate several BLP guidelines, and from your tone and insistence about these edits and other editors, it's clear that you're here for reasons other than improving the quality of the article. If you feel your edits were reverted unjustly, and you feel that they improve the article and don't violate guidelines, then please begin a rational discussion about those edits rather than attacks on other editors. Thanks, KathrynA 18:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Violets blog dose not state my relation ship with her as claimed above. As I have stated I am a close friend of Violet Blue. Regardless of my relation ship with Violet I believe that I have been unbiased in all of my edits and attempted to fallow all of the rules of wikipidea. As to the revet I don't see in what manner people finder is a athortive source for information. In this case people finder is wrong. I don't know how I can site a refreace proving or disproving this but, Violet Blue is the legal and true name of the author and she has never been known as Wendi Sullivan Blue. I find it in pour form that some one has edited this talk page to a old update of mine and move it to a section about blocking me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiwikimoore (talk • contribs) 19:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I was only quoting Wikiwikimoore's post from above- I did not edit his comment. He invited us to take up the discussion of "are his contributions invited?" and I am obliging. There is nothing "attacking" about what I have added.

Instead of making attacks on my editing style, can somebody please explain why Ms. Blue's lover Jonathan Moore is so involved in editing her article?? He reverted my revert, quoting the Wired article's reference to Peoplefinder, of her Birth Name of "Wendi Sullivan Blue" by saying "incorrect", with no counter-evidence. According to Ms. Blue's blog, Flickr, and Laughing Squid, they are dating! Should we allow him to edit and lock this article? Or should we have a factual, encyclopediac article including the birth date and name on her birth certificate?

Surely there are precedents for this! Won't some editor help against this teaming up of two editors (KathrynA and Wikiwikimoore) who have been accused of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry above? My only motive is accuracy and truth! EscalanteXP 02:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I apologize, EscalanteXP. It wasn't clear that it was a quote- by copying text that included WikiWikiMoore's signature it gave the deceiving impression that he had written that text himself inside a section about blocking him. I suggest re-editing it to make it clear that you are quoting him, perhaps using one of these methods.

The only reference to Peoplefinders on Wired that I can find is in an anonymous blog comment. I don't think we really need to argue about that as a valid source. Again, I'd take a look through the WP:BLP policy before insisting on making claims based on a questionable source, especially if someone you assert is close to her (who would therefore be in a better position than any of us to actually *know* what is on her birth certificate) states that it is incorrect. - KathrynA 20:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

People interested in the truth and accuracy do not use peoplefinder. 67.114.166.165 18:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)not so humble sockpuppet

Okay, Wikiwikimoore has a clear conflict of interest, being a friend of the subject. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that he should be prohibited from editing the article, though his edits may be met with closer scrutiny. Ideally, he should add information to this talk page and let other editors integrate it into the article. On the other hand, I have to agree that Peoplefinder isn't a particularly reliable source. As far as birthdays go, KatherynA is correct that there's no real need for it here. Per our policy at WP:BLP, we only include birthdates for highly public individuals with widely publisehd birthdates. Violet Blue, while certainly notable, doesn't fall into that category. -Chunky Rice 18:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Peoplefinder says there is no me, whereas people-finder says there are two of me in California. I must prepare. There can be only one. 67.114.166.165 23:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)graduated to shoepuppet