User talk:ArielGold
Jay Barbree pageHello Ariel, and thanks for your cogent points on the Jay Barbree references / Deke Slayton authorship. Re. the Barbree story, it is an anecdote that appears in his book, that the writer of the MSNBC (same affiliated company as Barbree) repeats in the context of talking about his book, and the only source of which can be Barbree (as the other person, Shepard, is long dead). Therefore, it seems more accurate to cover all bases by saying "Barbree says Shepard told him" - but it would also work to say "In his book, Barbree writes that Shepard told him" - I'd be happy to amend to that. It therefore then correctly leads to the source. As Barbree's books are not an accurate account of the space program (there are a huge number of factual errors in the most recent one, and many of the anecdotes are unreliable) it is best to show that the source is him, and not a fact coming from another source. In this instance, the only possible source for the MSNBC story is Barbree. MSNBC, by repeating it, do not by default verify it. Re. the Slayton authorship, I also believe it is more correct to say: In 1993, Shepard, journalist Howard Benedict, and Barbree collaborated to write the best-selling book, Moon Shot.[3 Astronaut Donald K. "Deke" Slayton is also listed as an author, although he passed away before the project was completed. Slayton colleagues have said that the "Moon Shot" book was one he had no actual participation in, but that he allowed his name to be placed on before passing away without ever seeing a draft. I thought my wording was therefore a more accurate summary, in that it still names him as a listed author, without (incorrectly) suggesting he was an active participant. The wording you have changed it back to "In 1993, Shepard, fellow Mercury astronaut Deke Slayton, journalist Howard Benedict, and Barbree collaborated to write the best-selling book, Moon Shot.[3] Slayton died before the book was completed" is factually incorrect (although impossible to source this) as it lists Slayton as an active collaborator. I'd recommend it be changed to the more accurate, more open version which allows both possibilities, not just the factually incorrect one. I realize that we are in the somewhat murky waters here of impossible-to-source information, therefore my wish that a more neutral pose is taken. Otherwise, the page is pushing in the direction of incorrect information, no matter how meticulously it can be proved that the incorrect information is repeated by other journalists. Thank you, and I appreciate and admire your longstanding and hard work to keep these pages accurate. Authorinfo 22:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello Ariel, Okay, I guess we'll agree to disagree on the author listing - the page is incorrect, as any reliable space historian would tell you. but I understand the need to keep things grounded in sources. I have made the other change, as you suggest, and thanks for understanding the viewpoint on that one. As the person who began the Barbree page, FYI you may wish to look at areas such as recent Amazon.com reviews on Barbree's new book, including from a well-known Apollo spacecraft engineer. It might be informative to you as to why many people are concerned whenever they see Barbree's anecdotes repeated as fact in web pages that others may use as reliable sources. So pleased to see that you are working on so many fronts to keep the space information updated and widened on Wikipedia - great work - thanks! Authorinfo 23:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ariel, Yes, I read the book the other month. I'm sorry to say, it has all of the errors in there that are listed on Amazon. I was immensely disappointed, as I have always enjoyed Barbree's work. I agree, Amazon reviews are not something that could ever be used or relied on as a source, that was just FYI. In this instance, those negative reviews are correct, as information like rocket heights, mission lengths, rocket fuel amounts etc. can be checked and verfied against non-memoir sources, and they are often incorrect in his book. There are even lines from the "Apollo 13" movie used as if they really happened, although there are verifiable sources saying they were invented for the movie. I found and noted all the same points as mentioned in those reviews, as have other space historians. For an outside space enthusiast, I bet the book reads as a wonderful, exciting account. For those who were there or have researched the events, it is painful to read for the amount of errors. The fact that it uses a faked photo is damning in itself, when it comes to accuracy. I certainly agree with you that something like "Slayton had nothing to do with it" would be far too strong for somewhere like Wikipedia - I was instead trying to write neutrally but with wider options. But I quite understand what you are saying, and the care that needs to be taken for any changes, however subtle. I have to admire the way you do your work, even when I disagree sometimes! Thanks. And there are some great other books out there about the early years of spaceflight - here is probably not the forum to make recommendations, but I'd encourage you to see what else is out there, too. Authorinfo 00:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Ariel, sounds like you are thinking about all of the ramifications and looking for accurate information, which is great. Indeed, memoirs tend to be less reliable than other types of publications - all the more reason not to rely on them for objective facts, and to tie anecdotes from them back to the memoir. Glad you are interested in the subject, and appreciate your work. Authorinfo 17:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Preity Zinta FAHi there. The Preity Zinta article has recently achieved A-class status. Due to the wealth of support I have decided to now nominate for an FA class article which I believe and judging by the comments of others is pretty much up to. In my view it is better than some existing FA actor articles. I would therefore be very grateful if you could give it a final review in your own time and leave your comments and views at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Preity Zinta. Thankyou, your comments are always valuable. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Talk"? 10:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
NovemberHappy November! ;) Tiddly-Tom 18:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Re:CongratsThankyou very much! And thankyou also for your support in my RfA. I look forward to getting started. Best wishes, Lradrama 18:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC) This is coolThis is very cool! — Timotab Timothy (not Tim dagnabbit!) 21:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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