Talk:Secularism in Turkey

Comments

Introduction

From the last sentence of the introduction: "...actively monitors the area between the religions." I don't fully understand what this means; it may need to be rephrased. Is it alluding to the government taking a neutral stance on religion, or the government actively promoting religious tolerance? EyeSerene^TALK 17:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Not Neutral Point of View

Despite the fact that sources are cited throughout, several sections of this article seem to reflect a bias against Turkey and need to be cleaned up to meet Wikipedia's standards for NPOV, such as the following passage:

"...Therefore by being a secular republic, Turkey is a poor representation of a democracy due to the fact it harasses people who pratice religion in public while it is evident in the West that many people practice religion openly without facing discrimination a law upheld by the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights as "legitimate" on November 10, 2005 in Leyla Şahin v. Turkey.

The strict application of secularism in Turkey has basically led to oppresion and has made for many individuals in Turkey a huge obstacle of expressing freedom, values, social life, and way of thinking#PPA28,M1 }}</ref>"

Therefore I am going to put the disputed-neutrality template on its page. —Edward Tremel 00:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

O.K. The article is based on cited information. The available concepts are distributed to their correct places. The concept is very popular and biased edits are expected. That is the nature of the Article. From my perspective the article has problems but not really bad. Any other recommendations?? --OttomanReference 16:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

it was an anon who declared Turkey as an Islamic state, his/her edit was reverted immediately. see this diff. Deniz^T_C 03:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Secular Paradox

While its almost indisputable that Turkey is more secular than many of the countries neighbouring it how can they claim to be a completly secular republic when.

• 1) Its flag bears the imgae of the Islamic crescent

• The 'Islamic crescent' comes from Turkey/Ottoman Empire

• Which in turn used an Islamic symbol, to underscore its claim to the caliphate. Interestingly, religion was one of the ways by which Turks were *defined* during Republican-era conflicts with Greece and Greeks.

• 2) The Government funds the construction of Mosques

• They are donation based as far as I know. In Turkey every now and then you can find someone on your door who asks whether you want to donate money to a mosque construction

• Their preachers receive government salaries

• 3) There is (Islamic) religious education in state funded schools

• This one is in a way true, there is a course called 'Din Kültürü ve Ahlak Bilgisi' (direct translation: "Culture of Religion and knowledge of Ethics")

• The teachers are invariably these same government-subsidized Sunni preachers. A common Alevi complaint is that (a) these teachers use the opportunity to proselytize, and belittle Alevi beliefs, and (b) Alevi children (unlike those of recognized religious minorities) cannot be excused from the class.

• 4) There is a Government "Department of Religion"

• Ministry for Religious Affairs, which on paper oversees the area between the religions, but in practice it is like a Department of religion, maybe since almost everyone in Turkey is at least nominally Moslem. It is not a state church

• Most Turks are at least nominally Muslim, but many are non-Sunni (i.e., Alevi), while others disapprove of the state-supported mosque system. The only thing that distinguishes this system from a "state church" per se would be the Turkish government's insistence that there is no state religion.

• In Denmark, England, Germany etc most churches are paid for by the state. In Italy, the law confers many fiscal priviliges to the Catholic Church instead of directly paying for churches.

• 5) Until recently Adultery was a crime (and there have been proposals for recriminalising it)

• No it wasn't, but there was a discussion initiated by some politicians

• There used to be laws against hotels renting rooms to unmarried (or unrelated) Turkish couples.

• So? Until 20 years ago it was legal for a Spanish man to shoot and kill his wife and her lover if he caught them in bed. One needs to only visit southern Turkey to see if that law about hotel rooms still applies :)

• 6) Identity cards state the bearers religion (surely in a truly secular state a persons religious beliefs would be of no more interest to the agencies of the state than their favorite footbal team)

• Correct.

• True, however it is NOT obligatory to have such a mention on ID cards. The law was changed a while back. In any case, you are right that there should be no such mention. But remember that in EU member Greece ID cards still have the mention of religion. This was used back in the day, in TR and GR for example, to make sure that someone wouldn't be a "threat to national security" by making sure that they were "true" X's or Y's. Remnants of the Cold War, what can I say?

• 7) There are widespread allegations of (past and present) persecution of and discrimination against religious minorities

• unfortunately, but not related, the laicite of the Turkish government does not imply that no teen will be a murderer

• In the Sivas massacre, the police were credibly accused of "looking the other way" while Sunni mobs attacked Alevis. Similar events happened in Istanbul.

• It was a horrible and condemnable incident. However it was nearly twenty years ago. The Sunni-Alevi tension no longer exists in Turkey, and that event was one of the last events in those dying tensions.

80.229.222.48 20:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• Deniz^T_C 00:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

--Side Comment to number 6: Germany, an undisputed secular democracy, requires citizens to state their chosen religion as part of tax forms since tithing is done by the state. Germany also requires State recognition of religious sects.

I would have thought the Germans of all people would know why letting the Government know your religious affiliation might not be such a good idea but we are discussing Turkey here not Germany. 80.229.222.48 21:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Public Reason

I see the reference to "public reason" was added to the lead; I'm not sure that's appropriately used in reference to Turkey. The phrase has some currency, but is somewhat central to John Rawls, at least to my understanding (meaning I doubt it has much influence on Turkish politics). I would rephrase that unless someone disagrees. Mackan79 14:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)