Talk:Kerala Iyer

Talk:Palakkad iyers

This article contains many historical inaccuracies. The Brahmins who were residents of Travancore and Cochin who trace their origin to Thirunelveli, Ramnad and Madurai district of Tamil Nadu are clubbed with the Brahmins of Palakkad a majority of whom migrated from Tanjore district.

Till 1956 the Tamil Brahmins of southern and central Kerala were the residents of the erstwhile princely state of Travancore and Cochin whereas the Palkkad Brahmins were residents of British India.

I have added the history of the Pandi (short form for Pandya) Iyers in the article on Iyers. The entire article does require a fresh look.

Unfortunately, I am not proficient in WIKI editing.

I have been studying Indology especially the History and religions of India.

I am the editor of India and Hinduism categories of ODP.

Sankarrukku 09:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I have revised the text by removing historical inaccuracies.

1. There are two Brahmin Communities in Kerala. Palakkad Iyers and the Pandi Iyers of Travancore and Cochin. This article had mixed up both of them. They are distinct with their own language and culture. Till the present generation even marriages between these communities were not common.

2. The language and other political agitations in Travancore and Cochin before 1956 never affected the Palakkad Brahmins as they were in British India and have no relevance here.

3. The Palakkad district was merged into the state of Kerala only in 1956. A lack of Tamil schools should be attributed more to the neglect of the British administration than to the government of Kerala.

4. Palakkad or Palghat has a sizable Tamil Brahmin population even now.

5. I will fine tune the article later with additions about Pandi Brahmins in Palakkad. and add an article on Pandi Brahmins.

I would be thankful for any help/suggestions.

--Sankarrukku 17:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions

1) "Pandi Iyers"- Pandya kingdom was an ancient kingdom. However, in today's world, the word "Pandi" has become a term used by many ethnic Malayalees to refer to all Tamilians who resent it (including the Tamil brahmins- Iyers- living in Kerala and their official organisation known as- Kerala Brahmana Sabha) Many resent the word because it is used derogatorily by some people in the contemporary Kerala society. Often, the use of words such as "Pattar" and "pandi" in some Malayalam movies and television serials invites protests from Tamil brahmin community in general. Hence, I humbly express my opinion that it will be great if not used "controversial words" to refer to a community in the encyclopedia. For example, do people living in the southern states of India like to be addressed as "Madrasi"?. Yes, terms like "Pandi Iyers" and "Yankee Americans" make people's minds painful. Hence, let's say good bye to such ethnic slurs. Let's use "Iyers in Travancore-Cochin region", instead of 'Pandi Iyers".

2)"Pattar"- It is also a derogatory term used by many ethnic Malayalees to refer to Tamil brahmins(Iyers), who resent it. Many resent the word because it is used derogatorily by some people. It is also an ethnic slur like "Pandi", "Madrasi", "Yankee", "Nigger" etc.

2a) The origin of the word Pattar came from Bhattar. See www.keralaiyers.com for more specifics & history behind it. Yes, at times it might be construed as derogatory - but, Pattars indeed is a unique community and is highly recognizable from other iyers. I am not for separatism, but would strongly suggest to document & track the Pattar or Kerala Iyer community separately in Wiki also - as is done in the dedicated website www.keralaiyers.com and the associated discussion group [email protected] Ramsap (talk) 12:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)ramaprasad subramaniamRamsap (talk) 12:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

2b) Yes!!! Bhatta' is a Sanskrit word. And one type of the common brahmin surnames in Tamil, Kannada, Tulu, Malayalam, Bengali and Hindi languages derived from this Sanskrit word. (Bhattar, Bhattaru, Bhatt, Bhattacharya, Bhattacharjee, Bhattathiri, Bhattathirippadu etc. are as commonly used as Sharma even today) But, in Kerala, 'Pattar' is a derogatory nickname; not a brahmin surname. :) And about the usages of nicknames in Internet: There are also some communities in Orkut like "Gujjus" (Gujaratis), Ghati(Marathis), Bongs(Bengalis), Sardarjis(Sikhs), Mallus(Malayalees), Madrasis(Tamils), Gultis(Telugus)- possibly started by some wealthy computer-savvy and easy going youngsters from the respective communities just for a fun. There is also a 'Pattar' community at orkut started by some Iyers from Kerala! But, when we think from the point of view of 'total ahimsa'- the true brahmin culture, a great encyclopedia like wikipedia should not promote such 'nicknames' as 'synonyms'. Sure, most Iyers born and brought up in Kerala, like members of other language minority communities including Kannadigas, Gujarathis and Tuluvas of Kerala, have some 'unique attributes' absorbed from the local culture in their 'personality' like what many Punjabi Sikhs settled in Madhya Pradesh, Hong Kong, Kolkata or in United Kingdom having some attributes of local cultures in their 'personality'. So, we should understand that their 'personality' is influenced by the local culture. It does not mean that Punjabi speaking Sikhs in Madhya Pradesh, Delhi or Haryana are a "different community". In the same way, Iyers in Kerala cannot be considered as a unique community/ethnic group/caste but they are highly recognizable from Tamil Nadu Iyers in general due to the factor of having the 'Malayali-influenced personality'. Precisely, they are highly recognizable in personality; nothing else makes them different. Hence, we can take the example of Sikhs in this regard to understand Iyers. Sikhs are truly Sikhs wherever they are. But, they accept the goodness of local cultures and languages around the world and reflect it in their personality. However, life away from Punjab for generations does not make a Sikh happy to read the 'nickname' in wikipedia, to ensure that he would be more frequently verbally bullied or mocked or laughed at by collegues or classmates with an 'encyclopedic effect'! Initially, many of those 'popular' but hurting Sardarji jokes, self-deprecatory in nature, were made up by the easy-going Sikhs themselves. Several joke books containing Sardarji jokes were compiled by Sikh authors themselves.The elite class in the community enjoyed it. But, it was not easy for the common Sikh. However, later the rich Sikh realised the mistake after realising the negative impact on the community as a whole. Such jokes always caused mental pain for the common Sikh in the long-run. It's the case of Iyers in Kerala also. It's well known among middleclass Iyers in Kerala that www.keralaiyers.com and a discussion group [email protected] exist. There is also a www.tamilbrahmins.com. Earlier, there was www.tamiliyers.com also existed, but, now not working I think. However, in the contemporary Kerala society, Iyer students from poor families often become victims of inhuman verbal bullying and ragging-like situation. Many Iyers are sometimes compelled to be non-vegetarians to hide their alleged "Pattar-ness" in the canteens and hostels of educational institutions after being demoralised. Some attempted suicide. Some transfered to new educational institution etc.. Another issue is the elderly tamil brahmin priests/Iyers who travel in the traditional brahmin dress( dhoti, rudraksha, vibhuthi, kudumi etc) are often facing mocking comments from local youth etc..These are just examples. There are many unknown sufferings in the life of ordinary Iyers in Kerala, though, Iyers have always heavily contributed to the development of Malayalam language and literature. Elder generation of Iyers are studying the root cause of this cultural shift and planning to start self-awareness campaigns among the Iyer youth. Iyers may not be as strong as Sikhs to protest. Yet, wikipedia can help them, atleast by not promoting the words like 'Pattar' since Iyers are facing a serious crisis in Kerala being a small minority community. Yes, it's a violation of human rights. However, now a days, Iyers living in Kerala tend to be identified as part of the global Iyer community than 'patters' etc.. even in the grass-root level. They are verymuch conscious of their true identity to resist this trend of cultural shift. Precisely, Iyers are a single community spread across many states in India having a common cultural soul. They are well integrated with local traditions and languages like Sikhs. But, just like Sikhs wear Turbans wherever they are, Iyers are also a single community wherever they are and common Iyers tend to be united wherever possible to fully protect Iyer culture in the 21st century.

However, there is an article of 'Sardarji jokes' in wikipedia. It's of scholarly character. It studies the views of those who have been emphasizing the point of 'freedom of speech' to support such jokes as well as of those who oppose it since such jokes can be considered as a crime against a community - on the basis of section 295 of the Indian Penal Code- for "hurting religious sentiments".

I mean the articles in wikipedia about Sikhs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhs and Sardarji Jokes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardar_jokes - can help us while writing about Iyers carefully, whether they are in Kerala or Karnataka or USA :) [ Because, wikipedia must make all readers happy. Both easy going Iyers as well as religious Iyers. Non-Iyers also :) ] This is my personal opinion :) Thank you.

2c) I suggest that 3 articles will be great- 1) "Iyers in Kerala", 2)"Iyers in Maharashtra", 3)"Iyers in Karnataka" ( just like as part of the main article about Iyers including all their cultural attributes and personality visibly influenced by local cultures. Iyers live in Maharashtra and Karnataka in large numbers atleast for the last 125 years and they are very much integrated with local places like so-called 'Palakkad Iyers'! However, articles about other communities like Sikhs, Jatt People, Gujjars, Nairs and Kayastha people don't seems following any idea of 'splitting the single community' on the basis of state, country or region; but tend to give a comprehensive view especially for the readers belonging to the respective communities. For example, the article about Nairs is highly inclusive. The Sri Lanka born former Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M.G.Ramachandran(MGR)finds a place in that article with a photo as a Malayalee since he was a Nair. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair But, Tamil people(even some Tamil Nadu Iyers) often tend to exclude Iyers in Kerala even by going to the extent of branding them as "Malayalees" due to lack of General Knowledge! On the other hand, about Iyers who honestly opt to identify themselves as "Malayalees" and love to be addressed so, end up linguistically and culturally embarrassed in their hearts at some moments of life when some non-vegetarian ethnic Malayalees(especially in schools, colleges etc) use terms like "Pattar", "Pandi" etc deliberately. May be an exaggeration, but having no other choice for a comparison, this situation of identity crisis reminds many Iyers in Kerala of the condition of some German Jews during second world war. Many American, Russian and the British soldiers often suspected Jewish refugees from Hitler's Germany as Nazi agents. Even the local Jews of Jerusalem suspected that there might be Nazi agents among the Jewish refugees coming to the then British Palestinian territory from Germany! However, wikipedia is here today to redeem people from such ignorance and foster human values. :)

3)"Kerala Iyers"- All Iyers living in Kerala, whether in Palakkad district or in the southern districts, prefer to be known as "Iyers", however, geographically they live in Kerala, hence, it will not be wrong to use the word- "Kerala Iyers". However, they are not the traditional 'Kerala brahmins'. It is a misnomer since true Kerala brahmins are Namboothiris. In fact, Iyers are not even allowed to officiate as priests in Kerala's temples even today. In the past, the true Kerala brahmins(Namboothiris) even practiced untouchability towards Tamil brahmins(Iyers)

4) Clarification- "Till the present generation even marriages between these communities(Palakkad Iyers and so-called Pandi Iyers) were not common"- The true reason is- most Iyers migrated to Palakkad district from Tanjavur(Tamil Nadu) after accepting an invitation from the king(Raja) of Palakkad belong to the 'brahacharanam' sub-sect of Iyers, while, most Iyers in south Kerala belong to Vadama sub-sect, who migrated from Thirunelveli district. However, there were other sub-sects also among the migrants, but, the majority in these two different regions belonged to two different sub-sects. And marriages between the two group of Iyers, were common, if the bride and bridegroom belonged to the same sub-sect.(Vadama, Brahacharanam, etc..)However, Iyers in the south Kerala often preferred marriage proposals within the region and neighbouring districts of Tamil nadu than Palakkad, a 'distant land' then.(No train, buses like today...and...different sub-sects...their numbers...etc..etc..just guess the reasons)

P.S.- I am an Iyer. My great grandmother was born and brought up in Palakkad. Her husband belonged to a place presently in southern Tamin Nadu. And many family members of some of my ancestors had been high ranking govt officials in the historic Travancore Kingdom. I have never heard any word like "Pandi Iyer", Palakkad Iyer", "Kerala Iyer", "Tamil nadu Iyer' etc..etc..from my family and relatives. I have many relatives in different Indian states like Kerala(in many districts including Palakkad), Tamil nadu(in many districts), Maharashtra and Karnataka. The common things which bring all the Tamil brahmins together are Tamil language(different brahmin dialects), surname(Iyer), Smarta religious traditions and vegetarianism. To be frank, we are happy about the unity and diversity flourishing among us.

Tamilians or Malayalees?

If Palakkad Iyers are Tamil Brahmins, what is the point in adding Jeyaram, Ajith Kumar and Hariharan? --Rrjanbiah (talk) 06:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

All famous borders are political; not linguistic. And when the 'majority factors' defined domestic boundaries in the Indian context between states, common people on both sides were often confused of Iyers from Kerala without a confirmation from encyclopedias :)

Malayalee: A person whose mother tongue is Malayalam or its various dialects irrespective of his/her birth place. Hence, Malayalees in Kerala understand former Tamil Nadu Chief Minister/actor M.G Ramachandran,(a Sri Lanka born person whose mother tongue was a dialect of Malayalam)well as a Malayalee for encyclopedic reasons since he belonged to Nair community, a prominent Malayalee ethnic group(neither Sinhalese nor Tamil). However, MGR's far greater fluency in Tamil language was the reality and he loved Tamil, his personal choice and settled in Tamil Nadu. And, Shashi Tharoor, born in London(UK), is considered by Malayalees in Kerala as one among them since he is also a Nair, but, the ex-UN official with Malayalee origins is an English writer. If this theory is followed, Jayaram, Hariharan, and Ajithkumar(born in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh) are Tamil people from the point of view of an encyclopedia. Actually Tamil population is as diverse as Spanish speaking people with regard to their dialects spoken at home! It's to be noted that Spanish speakers also live in Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Venezuela etc..for centuries and even in New Mexico and Texas states of USA who speak very different dialects of Spanish from those of spoken in European Spain. Similarly all persons in Tamil Nadu are not Tamils. Communities of Telugus, Kannadigas, Malayalees, Todas, Badagas, Sindhis, Bengalis, Gujarathis, Punjabis etc exist in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu. :) Precisely, mere name of geographic or political entities like states, territories, provinces, nations etc never homogeneously define the linguistic or ethnic identities of the inhabitants as a whole. The 1991 census recognizes 1,576 classified "mother tongues" in India, spoken in all its states and union territories. Hence, official language of an Indian state(eg. Tamil in Tamil Nadu, Malayalam in Kerala) does not define the mother tongue and linguistic origin of its inhabitants as a whole(eg. Malayalee, Tamilian). Precisely, the population of a state or territory or region is comprised of the sum of different linguistic micro communities(eg. Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, Konkani and Tulu people in Kerala) and the historically major native linguistic group(eg. Malayalees in Kerala) and therefore a common linguistic identity for the inhabitants of an Indian state is non-existent due to encyclopedic reasons, though people are naturally fluent in the local but official languages spoken by the majority and highly multilingual. In the same way, all those who have born and brought up in Mumbai are not Marathis, despite the fact of being more fluent in Marathi than own mother tongues. Hence, detailed analysis always helps to reach proper conclusions of a person's or an ethnic group's mother tongue. Hence, no confusion! There are Malayalees born and brought up in Tamil Nadu but more fluent in Tamil and Tamilians born and brought up in Kerala but more fluent in Malayalam :) However, people's linguistic and ethnic origins are not at all important in this cosmopolitan modern world in my opinion. And as an Indian, the citizen of a great country which is home to a billion + people speaking 1500 + mother tongues, I am happy and proud to know that the French President Nicolas Sarkozy is the son of a Hungarian immigrant father, Pál Sárközy de Nagy-Bócsa. While the first citizen of France's mother is of Greek Jewish descent, named Andrée Mallah!!! Europeans are very much progressive after two world wars caused by linguistic pride, border disputes, racism..etc etc..and Indians can learn from them instead of giving over importance to mother tongues, I think.

For details, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayalee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_people —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyasaagar (talk • contribs) 13:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Palakkad Tamil

The dialect of palakkad Iyers is not "heavily" influenced by Malayalam vocabulary as some Tamil movies depict them.(very much prejudicial in this regard) Actually, the grammar is 99% same as Thanjavur Brahmin dialect. Vocabulary also 99% same. About vocabulary, after all, what is the difference between Malayalam and Tamil? Let's take an example, "Veedu" = Malayalam and Tamil meaning of the word is "house", but Palakkad Iyers say it "aam", like Tamil Nadu Iyers. Then, coconut= "Thenga" is standard Malayalam. "Thengaay" is what Palakkad Iyers say for coconut. Naay(dog), Poonai(cat), etc. all words are same in Thanjavur Tamil and Palakkad Tamil. In Malayalam- "poocha" is the word for "cat". And, Palakkad Iyers always say Poonai, not "Poocha". But, there is a major difference. It's neither grammatical nor lexical. But, just like American and British dialects of English have some differences, Palakkad Tamil has some uniqueness. For example, "Yaanai" is standard Tamil word for "elephant", but Palakkad Iyers generally say "aanai"- omitting the "ya" of Tamil. Standard Malayalam word is "aaana". And, in Kannada, it is "aane". Yes, there are some Kannada influences visible in Palakkad Tamil. Palakkad was part of Mysore kingdom for some time during Hyder Ali-Tipu Sultan era. Yet, Palakkad Tamil can be considered a more pure form of Tamil than Chennai's English+Telugu+Urdu+ "whatever"-mixed dialect a.k.a Madras Bashai. For more details about Palakkad Baashai, see Brahmin Tamil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyasaagar (talk • contribs) 20:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)