Talk:James Arbuthnot

Intro

Is it really appropriate that the chairmanship mentioned in the intro para is that of a mere grouping, 'friends of israel', rather than the constitutionally more weighty and significant Def Cmt? Alci12 13:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring over how someone's voice sounds?

Ahem. (coming here from User:Rockpocket's talk...) If I understand what is happening here, something was in the article about Arbuthnot's voice, it was objected to on the grounds of not being referenced, and the result was that it was indeed referenced, and then some, with a fair bit of additional colour put in about his colourless voice, (if you'll excuse the turn of phrase) and now we're warring over it? Is that a fair assessment? I suspect a number of people have better things to do than babysit every Arbuthnot article so if we could all find some sort of compromise that worked, that would be grand. If his voice is truly notable enough to be remarked on in several places and it somehow helps the reader understand the subject, and passes BLP, why not leave it? But also, why drone on about his drone (if you'll excuse the turn of phrase, again) at length? A short mention would do I would think? ++Lar: t/c 23:21, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Misattributed and unencyclopedic. Also POV rather than factual. - Kittybrewster ☎ 00:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Iridescent and I both decided to protect this, independently and at the same time, as it was drawing the usual suspects into an edit war. Everyone involved in reverting this article today is experienced enough to know better. Please discuss it here instead of reverting each other. Rockpocket 00:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

(EC) As this is rapidly heading towards WP:LAME and 3RR blocks all round, I've temporarily protected The Wrong Version. If his voice is important & the quotes are accurate, 24 hours should be long enough for VK or Giano to dig out a source for it; if his voice isn't important, 24 hours will give Kittybrewster (or anyone else - KB, you might want to try speaking to User:Walton One who's quite good on Conservatism articles) long enough to form a coherent argument as to why it doesn't warrant being on here, without getting yourself blocked yet again for edit warring. I do not understand what it is with this family — I'm not aware of any family that causes so many flamewars in so many areas. Can I take the opportunity that any rambling abuse on my talkpage from the Baronet Brigade will be deleted unanswered, unless they have something to say - unlike BHG, I do not find this saga remotely interesting any more. — iridescent 00:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

As a neutral outsider with some expertise in UK politics, I've been asked to give an opinion here. It seems that the debate here is over whether this belongs in the article or not. There are two separate sources and two separate points.

• Firstly, Kittybrewster is correct that the proposed wording misquoted Nicholas Soames. If one reads the source [1] itself, the full context is as follows:

" It described a scene in the Commons chamber when Nicholas Soames, guffawing at some rejoinder by a government minister, merrily jabbed his neighbouring MP, Arbuthnot, in the ribs. Hoggart put what happened next like this: "Mr Arbuthnot did not respond, but sat with a thin, weak smile, like winter sunshine upon a coffin lid." ”

• As such, Soames did not say it - Simon Hoggart did - and it referred to a specific situation, not a general appraisal of Arbuthnot's appearance. This therefore either should not be in the article, or needs to be reworded to correctly attribute the quote to Simon Hoggart rather than Nicholas Soames. Personally I don't think it belongs in the article at all, since it wasn't meant to describe Arbuthnot's general physical appearance but rather his appearance on one specific occasion, which doesn't constitute a fair and balanced biography of his life.
• The other source [2] does indeed quote Byron Criddle as comparing Arbuthnot's voice to the speaking clock. However, I suggest that if this is to be included, it would be better to find the original editorial from Criddle and use that as a source, rather than a second-hand report of his comments (as this is). Generally it's preferable to avoid solely relying on the Guardian - not that I'm questioning its status as a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes, but it does have a well-known left-wing slant, and it's probably better to use a range of news outlets as sources in order to reinforce the neutrality of the article.
• We also need to avoid undue weight - just because one person has criticised Arbuthnot's voice in one editorial doesn't mean that such criticism belongs in the article. If it's going to be kept in, then ideally more than one source regarding his voice needs to be included. Remember, the article needs to be a full and balanced biography of its subject's life.

These are just my suggestions. When the protection expires, please don't revert the wording back to how it was (especially not the blatant misquote of Soames). Walton^One 15:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree. I am also bothered by User:Vintagekits approach as evidenced by his edit summary 22:01, 1 December 2007 (→Personal Life - better? got loads more where that came from on this "character"). - Kittybrewster ☎ 16:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I truly think it is not a good idea to edit a page on one's own brother. Charges of COI are inevitable. Giano 16:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I think both Kittybrewster & VK would be well advised to steer clear of this; editing the page of your own brother, and editing the page of the brother of someone you've been have a permanent argument with for nine months (!), are both getting uncomfortably close to COI. I'm sure there's someone else floating around who can write this one up if he warrants it. — iridescent 18:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I second that. The history between the two shows the potential for COI editing is as real for Vk as it is for Kb. Walton One's assessment is also spot on. There is grounds for additional content on others' opinion of Arbuthnot, but we can't just add a sentence about his voice without context. If Vk has a genuine interest in improving this article, then I suggest he spends some time collecting sources that describe Arbuthnot in both positive an negative terms and drafting a balanced section on the talk page. In response to that, I suggest Kb also restricts himself to discussing that section on this page also. Rockpocket 21:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not going to get involved in the "gibber-gabber" - Kb has a week to get this article into shape - I am getting all the sources and references for my own stuff together this week and after the week is up I am going to tare this article a new whole!--Vintagekits (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It really isn't encyclopedic though, is it? This isn't about suppressing something which casts him in an unfavourable light, it's about removing un-encyclopedic information. That's what I think anyway. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 18:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Update

Ok, Vintagekits has said he will leave off editing this article as a favor to me. (Thank you, VK, it's appreciated). Kittybrewster, I would hope that you would do the same, due to the COI problems. I for one would have no problem if you edit the talk page, and help us correct any factual errors that come in. Hopefully we can find a neutral person who's familiar with the information available about Mr. Arbuthnot, so we can have a good article, that's neutrally presented. I know I'm on weird hours compared to the majority of the editors involved, but if anyone has questions, I will try to help to the best of my ability. SirFozzie (talk) 03:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Times 16 dec 2008

James Arbuthnot, the Tory chairman of the Defence Select Committee who makes Eeyore look like a ray of sunshine, was gloomy. “As I listened to you, I found myself agreeing with you but not inspired or enthused. Is there anything you can do to inspire the country so that it actually starts believing with some enthusiasm about why we need to be in Afghanistan?” Gordon tried – Alky Aida got another mention – but now he sounded a bit like a cartoon character going through the motions. He then headed to Pakistan and India. I do hope someone is getting air miles on this and is wearing DVT socks. Kittybrewster ☎ 23:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

The Independent 16 dec 2008

I doubt the committee has ever heard such a flow of self-satisfied volubility. The chairman James Arbuthnot is a quiet Tory who can do considerable damage by not saying anything. He left an eight-second silence after a general gave an inconclusive answer on the Hercules that went down without life-saving flame-retardant foam. Two or three times he asked Mr Davies for shorter answers, then started interrupting and finally gave a tutorial (with examples) in not banging on. Labour's Dai Havard came at it from the other end, barking: "I don't want company, I want an answer!" He wasn't going to get one, not from a minister who can't admit we have three armed forces and only enough money to keep two in the top division. Kittybrewster ☎ 23:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)