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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Snowman frosty (talk | contribs) at 22:16, 25 May 2010 (→‎View by User:BozMo). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Statement of concern

Articles related to climate change have been one of Wikipedia's problem areas for a number of years now. Most of the disruption boils down to often heated or uncivil disagreement over the proper application of WP:WEIGHT and WP:SCIRS, though sockpuppetry and single-purpose accounts out of touch with wider Wikipedia norms play their roles. Near the end of last year, the Copenhagen Summit on climate change and the Climatic Research Unit email controversy contributed to a surge in interest in this family of articles; that furor has largely died down now. Whether the long term or the short term patterns have been more problematic is an open question, but a few days into the new year the community established Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation, giving uninvolved administrators wide leeway when acting to quell disruption in this topic area, and establishing a Requests for enforcement board for discussing the same.

Several editors in the discussion establishing this extraordinary probation opined that the community should review it after a few months had passed. It has now been about five months, and I would like to open this question for review. - 2/0 (cont.) 15:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Background
History of this probation

Actions taken under this probation are logged at Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Log. The large number of notifications resulted from the community decision to notify everyone making contributions to the topic area without any comment on the appropriateness of their edits. Page protections and blocks related to activities in the topic area but undertaken as normal administrator actions without invoking the probation have generally not been logged. The Requests for enforcement board was established to bring potential violations to the attention of uninvolved administrators and for discussion of appropriate action. Including trivial or vexatious requests, this board and its archives have dealt with 92 requests and comprise over two megabytes of discussion. An overview of the current state of this probation area may be seen here.

Desired outcome

If the community thinks that the probation serves a useful function at this time, the special measures can be reaffirmed, or possibly modified; in that case, periodic or continuing input from a few more uninvolved parties would be welcome. If the community thinks the probation does not serve a useful function at this time, the special measures can be marked as historical and the relevant articles detagged, with any future matters being referred to normal dispute resolution venues. If the community thinks that this family of disputes requires input from the Arbitration Committee, this discussion may serve as a preliminary (though please focus on the question at hand when commenting here).

Please do not edit others' View by sections except to add an endorsement. Threaded discussion should take place at the talkpage.

Views

View by User:2over0

Whatever else is decided here, the current Requests for enforcement board is not working. Instead of providing swift informed relief for nascent or escalating problems, it has turned into a game of brinkmanship. Whatever the outcome of this RfC, I have no intention of wading back into that sort of environment. This is partially an indictment on myself, as I have been acting as an uninvolved administrator in this area since shortly before the probation was established. I think that the best thing this probation has done is to establish and enforce a one revert restriction on the article Climatic Research Unit email controversy (under various names), which was enacted by Ryan Postlethwaite on 4 January; as this issue is less in the news of late and the investigations are being concluded, there is a good chance that this restriction may be relaxed. Other accomplishments include (anecdotally) fewer edit wars of the sure there have already been fifty reverts today, but I have not used my three revert entitlement yet variety, and a faster response when conflict flares up. I think, and I have been watching that monitoring link fairly closely for a while now, that this family of disputes has calmed enough that normal methods of dispute resolution should suffice. This is not to say that all matters are entirely settled, which would anyway not represent a healthy state for a developing encyclopedia, only that it is settled enough that it is no longer necessary to enforce a different set of rules from the standard Wikipedia expectations of collaboration and civility.

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As author. - 2/0 (cont.) 15:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Hipocrite (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Guettarda (talk) 16:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Endorse. The primary locus of dissent and animosity is now the enforcement board, while the articles themselves are mostly quiet. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:37, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Polargeo (talk) 13:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. BozMo talk 15:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC). The drama is mainly on the board; sadly even those uninvolved in articles can be still involved in the drama & accusations on board.[reply]
  7. I agree about it not working; not sure about the solution or if there even is one. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Yes, back to "normal" dispute resolution as the "crisis" of the "climategate flap" has settled (sorta), until the next "crisis" anyway. Vsmith (talk) 21:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view
  1. I got this impression from viewing the goings-on last week, I am not surprised by 2over0's view at all. The board is being used as a dramaboard to gain sanctions against opponents. Fences&Windows 19:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agree with pretty much every sentence, except for the parts about relaxing 1RR and bringing it back to standard dispute resolution - I am of the strong view that it is still not ready for that, and at least some sort of transitional stage is required so that standard dispute resolution does not become overwhelmed by the participants when they encounter more problems. More thought should have been put into how this part of probation (enforcement board) would work and be managed. Also, people should have been brought up to speed so that all were on (or very close to) the same page. Without either of these elements, there was no chance of this being resolved to a satisfactory level. That is not to say that the enforcement board was totally useless (see also some of the comments in LHvU's 1st view below particularly the 2nd para); I'm just saying that it was ineffective in terms of what probation actually means (or should be understood as). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree that climate probation has largely failed. I do not agree that there has been a significant calming outside of the periodic peaks and troughs of drama; rather I believe people have modified their behaviour to GAME the system to continue the disruption but at the same time hover just below the radar to avoid sanctions via wiki lawyering and tag teaming.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

View by User:LessHeard vanU

The probation is working, and the enforcement request page continues to evolve good working practices, and should continue to act to resolve the long term issues relating to the editing of Climate Change/Anthropogenic Global Warming articles. However, the participants to the editing of the articles and the administrators reviewing and enforcing the Probation and its requests for enforcement and their behaviours should be placed before the Arbitration Committee to have the issues regarding neutrality, disruption, battleground mentality, and associated concerns addressed and where appropriate have those individuals deemed to be nonconducive to the orderly resolution of issues brought to notice under the terms of the Probation to be removed, restricted or otherwise sanctioned so that the Probation may better and more quickly allow for providing a good editing environment within the related article and talkpage spaces.

It is my experience that in bringing cases to Enforcement request, the issues at hand are more clearly evidenced, with less interference, than on article talkpages - in the instances when that is exercised rather than edit warring - and that the dispute resolution that should have already occured commences. It is also evident that many cases of alleged policy violation are found not to have substance, and issues are then moved forward rather than dwelt upon. Lastly, the perceived belief that some editors were more equal than others in receiving the benefit or otherwise of individual admin actions has been largely reduced by the adoption by most uninvolved admins of a "consensus before action" discussion format, where policy application is decided and the end decision is adopted by all contributing admins. This has also lead to a greater consistency in the application of policy and the use of enforcement options.

That said, there are issues within the conduct of the Probation, the editing of articles within the Probations remit, and the conduct and adminning of the enforcement section of the Probation that likely requires the Arbitration Committee to review the entirety to see where there are areas of concern that may be beyond the current setup to address, to determine if there are persons whose conduct is detrimental to either the editing of article space or contributing to Probation pages, whether area's of the Probation process are indeed failing or otherwise require re-addressing, and suggestions of good practice going forward. This may be undertaken while the Probation is in force, with restrictions or amendments noted within the ArbCom process as required.

In short, it is a successful tool that might however require further refining.

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. The enforcement board is working. Cla68 (talk) 04:24, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. As proponent, obviously. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Editorially uninvolved Collect (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC) Shortcircuiting established procedure rarely is efficaceous, and is frequently detrimental to orderly functioning of processes established already. Note: I consider myself "uninvolved" as the claim that I am "involved" requires one to say that changing "asserting" to "asserts" and "has described as" to "called" and "among Australian independent bookstores " to "In Australia" etc. is the same as "being involved."[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:JohnWBarber

1. Problem: It's not working. The purpose of the sanctions regime is stated at WP:GSCC: Any editor may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive edits, including, but not limited to, edit warring, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith. Yet each of these kinds of misbehavior have been happening, often with impunity, on the WP:GSCCRE (requests for enforcement) page, right in front of the administrators involved in enforcement -- often enough with those administrators as the victims. What's going on at the GSCCRE page is a symptom of the failure. Some leeway is normally given on a dispute-resolution or complaints page, but the behavior now has gone way beyond a litle leeway. This line at the WP:GSCC page has become ironic: Not much leeway in pages under probation, so basically be a model Wikipedian; And yet we also have administrators blocking editors or imposing other behavioral sanctions without consensus on the GSCCRE page. Lengthy discussions of complaints about certain editors are followed by little or no action by administrators, and then the whole process repeats itself, creating an enormous waste of time and more frustration.

2. Some reasons why. WP:GSCCRE is essentially a little AN/I, with some of the same civility and consistency problems of AN/I. GSCCRE is attended by a rather small number of administrators, some of whom flit through and some of whom stay put. Those who flit through probably aren't as familiar with the ongoing problems as they could be, and some (possibly all) who stay are subjected to greater-than-normal complaints and even abuse for doing a tougher-than-normal volunteer job. And some of those administrators, for various reasons, have volunteered for a more difficult task than they can handle well. This isn't a major criticism of most of the admins working in this area: It only takes a few to prevent a consensus on enforcement, and administrators who get involved in this area are more likely than not to have stronger opinions about the content, and therefore may find it more difficult to separate their POV from their judgment on whether and how to sanction various editors. It's a challenging task, and many admins have said they wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Most admins probably couldn't do it well.

3. Proposal: Many of these problems would be solved if ArbCom took over control of GSCC, simply by agreeing to appoint administrators rather than having administrators select themselves for the job. On the whole, Arbcom appointees are likely to have better judgment than self-selected admins. Appointed admins will be responsible to ArbCom (removable at any time by Arbcom or an Arbcom committee) and therefore are more likely to be on their best behavior, yet with a mandate from ArbCom they're likely to be more decisive. Arbcom should appoint admins without an intense interest in political controversies related to science, or at least admins who have shown they know how to separate their POV from their admin actions. If five admins are appointed for overlapping five-month terms, with one admin rotated out each month, they'll get a good sense of the problems and personalities first-hand, but their terms will be up before they're likely to burn out. The first batch of appointees should include at least a couple of the admins who have experience here. They could serve for a one- or a two-month term to help retain some institutional experience. A stable group is more likely to act consistently. This won't solve all the problems (nothing will), but it would help with many of them, and if the appointees are good, it would solve most of them. After 11 months, ArbCom should ask the community in an RfC if it wants to continue the Arbcom-appointment regime, return to the old one (the one now in place) or abolish GSCC altogether.

4. Process: Since GSCC was set up by the community, Arbcom may be reluctant to overturn it without some kind of support for that move shown here, or at least community input on this page indicating that the current GSCC is not working. At least that's the impression I get from some of the arbitrators' comments now on the WP:RFAR page. [1] [2] Personally, I think Arbcom doesn't need community input to take this over, but I'm not really sure. I've numbered the paragraphs here to make it easier for anyone to note that they're rejecting parts of this while supporting other parts. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. Proposed. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yes. Arbcom should appoint the admins, and the admins should rotate. By appointing admins whose view parallel their own they can get the result they want without the overhead of a full case. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Appointed or community elected admins whould help give greater will and consistency to the RFE. Short terms preferred. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I think the numbers in paragraph 3 are inconsistent, but otherwise I fully support this proposal. It takes into account the practical problems of SBHB's proposal. Hans Adler 11:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Yes, that sounds like it could actually work. SPLETTE :] How's my driving? 16:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. BozMo talk 16:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC) per SBHB.[reply]
  7. Qualified endorsement. I think your proposal is a step in the right direction, but note that self-selection is not just 'who has strong feelings about the topic area' but 'who can stomach it'. This is a volunteer encyclopedia and admins do not deserve nor owe it to the community to take up post here. I think a simple closing of the enforcement page, with requests for enforcement made at WP:ANI as usual, will be enough to get the desired 'uninvolved' admins into the mix. Perhaps we could keep the probation guidelines minus the RfE page.--Heyitspeter (talk) 02:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view
  1. Fences&Windows 19:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. An accurate interpretation of the situation and I agree that ArbCom intervention is the only solution to this mess. ArbCom enforcement has helped resolve and restore calm to many very hostile battle fields on wikipedia and I am confident that they can do so again.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

View by User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris

At bottom this is a content dispute. The scientifically literate editors believe that the articles should predominantly reflect the conclusions of the scientific community -- a content issue. The contrarians believe that their views should get equal emphasis to those of the scientific community -- the other side of the content issue. Lar, LHvU and some others believe that the science should be de-emphasized in favor of sociopolitical concerns -- again, a content issue.

But we know that admins are not supposed to make content decisions. So, we try to re-cast our content concerns as behavioral ones. While there are a few clear instances of misbehavior, it is more typical to see people quote-mining, presenting diffs out of context, raising objections to precisely the same behavior in which they themselves engage, and the like because they have to do something to show misconduct by their opposing party. All so that the content dispute won't look like a content dispute. And yes, both sides are doing this (including admins, it has to be said). For these reasons I believe that the pretense that content is not the main issue ultimately makes the GSCC enforcement more rancorous than it would be otherwise, even before tossing in the usual long-held grudges and political machinations one sees at such venues.

Arbcom needs to drop the pretense that they don't decide content and get to the point: What do they want the climate-related articles to say? We can then go away and write those articles. Or we can stay away from them if the desired result is unconscionable to us, whatever our viewpoint may be.

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As proponent. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Supporting the spirit of this proposal. Even though they are the one body of Wikipedia that is most likely to deal with this in an appropriate way, I am not sure that Arbcom should do this directly: (1) it might hurt Arbcom's reputation in the eyes of the more extreme people on both sides of the dispute, and (2) it might hurt the working relations between Arbcom members. But pretending it is all about behaviour in a battle of admins over content only contributes to the problem. Perhaps we need a content advisory board for exceptional content conflicts for which the usual presumption that most admins willing to deal with a problem are neutral is unrealistic. There was at least one Arbcom decision about content in the past (WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE#Serious encyclopedias), and it didn't break the encyclopedia. Hans Adler 11:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Endorse, except for the conclusion. For better or for worse, it is not within ArbCom's remit to decide upon content issues. Perhaps that should be changed, but that's not within the scope of this RFC. NW (Talk) 18:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support - if only it were possible. --Nigelj (talk) 18:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Endorse the general statement. Again the final conclusion is a bit missing the point. I truly believe enforcement to have been counter productive. Polargeo (talk) 13:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. I agree in part, in the sense that strong feelings about content, in the broadest sense of the word, is the underlying problem. However, I believe that animosity between editors, and pigheaded behavior in general, is the reason why there is no resolution. (I think that the "CC science" types, with whose views I'm broadly sympathetic, have tended to go overboard in Fred Singer, for instance.) I have no opinion on the conclusion and am unsure about a solution, if any. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Yeah, let arbcom decide - they're paid more. Should add "interest" to the next arbom election. Vsmith (talk) 21:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Agree with the core observation. I'm not sure ArbCom can do any better, though. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Endorse with the caveat that I'm not sure the arbcomm could do much better on content. But I'm sure we'll see before too long. Guettarda (talk) 14:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Endorse, again except for the final para. Arbcomm shouldn't decide content, but if should decide content disputes. Pretending that you can settle content disputes as behavioural disputes is simply foolish William M. Connolley (talk) 17:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view
  1. Fences&Windows 19:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agree. Declare one and only truth and cull the opposition. A coin toss, perhaps. East of Borschov (talk) 03:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

View by User:ZuluPapa5

There could be greater consistency in the sanctions. I am left with the impression that closes and administrative actions could have better guidelines. RFE's are in and of themselves a disruption; however, necessary to address article disruptions. Thus, some of the disruptive aspects of the RFE's could be reduced with guidelines developed by sanction case histories, Arbcom finding, and ANI practices. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 04:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. Proponent Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 04:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agree. For an example of this inconsistency, see an analysis of GoRight's behavior, leading to indef block, as compared to an analysis of WMC's behavior, leading to zero sanctions. I'm sure no one will, but if you go through the diffs it's quite shocking to contrast the two descriptions.--Heyitspeter (talk) 16:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:Mackan79

The administrative question faced in this area, like any area, is what can be done with regard to the editing environment in order to best favor Wikipedia's content.

What's different about this area from most others is that some of the most basic assumptions are called into question. Generally it is taken for granted that "cooperation, collaboration, and compromise," as one editor puts it, are the key elements of a productive editing environment which will produce the best content. In this area, however, many editors believe incompetent activists are so prevalent that cooperation is a losing game. Thus, editors with this view work to ensure that there is not a purely even playing field (in the sense of purely democratic article writing), and to ensure instead that helpful editing and editors are given a boost.

Fringe editing is self-evidently a problem, and as such I believe that such a boost could be given openly and appropriately. Editors who do strong work and show substantive expertise should be accommodated. Editors who push fringe material in violation of content policies should likewise be sanctioned regardless of their compliance with behavioral policies. However, I submit that because numerous editors don't believe this is possible they go too far in various forms of gamesmanship, which ultimately ends up disregarding nearly everything besides apparent support for the grand cause. The gamesmanship is seen mainly in the continual hostility aimed at editors and admins, and the refusal to accept neutral principles of any kind. I think that at some point, this is also self-evidently a problem.

What is really needed is an environment that promotes quality over incompetent editing, but also maintains openness, consistency and professionalism. If the probation can preserve its own integrity then I think it can promote such a balance. A far more optimistic goal would be to change the culture so that more substantive experts perceive that an open, consistent and professional system is possible. Hey, it would be cool.

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As author. Mackan79 (talk) 05:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. LessHeard vanU (talk) 09:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Hans Adler 11:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I think I agree, but I'm not sure what this key sentence means: Editors who push fringe material in violation of content policies should likewise be sanctioned regardless of their compliance with behavioral policies. I don't know what policy would justify a sanction here. Perhaps once a consensus of editors have declared some point "fringe science" the topic must be dropped unless further evidence or new arguments are brought forward, otherwise WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT disruption kicks in and warnings and sanctions ensue. If this is what you're talking about, I think it's a better alternative to bickering and no more likely to be gamed than anything else, so I could support that. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. I agree, though I would add to the above that controversial administrator behavior has been a genuinely counterproductive force. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. --Heyitspeter (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Agree with the concluding paragraph, though not with all points. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:Nigelj

Climate change is an unusual phenomenon. It is the first time that scientific work has uncovered and described an issue that is so important to our very survival and that is going to drive political, economic and social change worldwide for the indefinite future. The factual description of such an issue is not something that is open to the normal political and social processes that may apply to opinion-driven issues. When you describe a war or a revolution, there are at least two viewpoints to describe, and that is the point of the conflict. When you describe other scientific endeavours like space exploration, you can say that political processes allocate the funding and so social and political viewpoints underpin the decision-making. The existence of the global warming problem is no longer the issue under debate (although what to do about it, how much, and how soon, still are). Level playing fields, compromise, balance and democracy are not words that apply to people who want to alter Wikipedia's articles to give air-time to views that there is no warming, that it is not caused by people, or that it doesn't matter. Discussion of such views are correctly covered in articles like Climate change denial, and barely at all in the mainstream texts. Global warming is not a matter of opinion: the two 'sides' in this case are those who get it and those who (for whatever reason) don't.

Therefore, merely enforcing good behaviour in content debates does not necessarily lead to more balanced articles, where all viewpoints are eventually given their due weight. In the climate change arena, giving balanced weight to the views of those who get it and those who don't, just gives us articles with a certain amount of nonsense mixed in with the reality. If the nonsense is sourced to a fringe blog, it is easy enough to argue the case, but when you have powerful business interests advocating denial, political think tanks set up to spread FUD and religious views that don't help either, many non-experts come to us convinced that they have valid contrary views, when they don't.

I have no idea how Wikipedia can encourage let alone enforce good, factual, balanced editing in this situation. I remain amazed that the articles are maintained as well as they are. This is due to the tireless efforts of those editors in the space who know what they are talking about and what they are doing. Using sanctions to teach those who have no idea what the real issues are how to behave may stop some of them adding their nonsense to the articles, but it may also just make them into more civil and cleverer pushers of their fringe viewpoints. The shame is that, in the complexity of all the gamesmanship that the whole process has engendered, there remain only a few scientifically literate stalwarts who have the skill and patience to keep up with the continual risks to their own reputations and accounts while maintaining the generally high quality of the current texts and references. In some senses, article quality has been maintained despite the content-agnosticism of the probation process, not because of it.

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As author. --Nigelj (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I think that this is a very good summary of the essential content problem. However, it needs to be acknowledged that editor behavior is a genuine issue too. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Largely endorse, though slightly toned down, except for I have no idea how Wikipedia can encourage let alone enforce good, factual, balanced editing in this situation. because the answer is easy: the admins enforcing the probation could start caring about content William M. Connolley (talk) 17:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Endorse, except it neglects that NPOV is the key issue with content, where neutrality can mean indifference. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 20:51, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:LessHeard vanU (2)

In response to the view by Nigelj, above. The premise that there are editors whose expertise within the science regarding the issues should permit them to disregard policy and practice when dealing with edits or subjects that reflect views from outside that discipline - and that are conversant with WP rules - is one of the issues that the Probation was created to resolve. The Probation, through its enforcement request process, has been successful in permitting the application of WP policy, and sanctioning violation of same, within the article space - although this is a continuing area of dispute and pov advocacy. To remove the Probation entirely is to allow the development of partisan editorship over encyclopedic neutrality.

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As author. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I agree that scientific knowledge is no excuse for bad behavior. Where I part company is with the implication that the mechanisms/actions dealing with "misbehaving science advocates" have been working. I think they've just tossed fuel on the fire. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree with the parts that disagree with Nigelj's view. Scientific orthodoxy does not need special privileges, and I think there's normally a consensus for it. There should be a consensus in favor of actual facts in all areas of the encyclopedia, but sometimes there isn't. Impatience with Wikipedia's loose way of getting to consensus is understandable, but scientific orthodoxy should have no more advantages in that process than any other wise POV anywhere else in the encyclopedia. If consensus-building should be made easier (and I wish it were, especially in the hotly contentious articles where many editors are involved), then we should look for encyclopedia-wide ways for that to happen, and editors interested in science will just have to wait to be served along with everyone else. (And no banging cups on the table in the meantime, please, or it's off to WP:GSCCRE with you). The "The Probation [...] has been successful [...]" part is not the way I would describe it, although I think there have been improvements. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:Polargeo

I simply do not think that sanctions/probation and enforcement have been of benefit to the climate change area of wikipedia. Internationally this area is vast. However, I believe that these ill thought out sanctions on wikipeida primarily distill issues into heated debates where a small minority of admins and editors entrench themselves in opposing camps. This in effect is detrimental to wikipedia. Polargeo (talk) 13:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The behavioural issues of a few editors can be dealt with by normal wikipedia procedures. CC Enforcement lends nothing to this. Indeed it puts a vast area of wikipedia (CC) under the editorial control of a small subset of admins and editors who are engaged in various content battles and attempt to win them through the channel of enforcement. This is detrimental to wikipedia. Polargeo (talk) 15:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As writer Polargeo (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Yes. I think it would be good for this forum disappear in favor of the usual AN/I procedures. As is, the CC enforcement page merely serves to hide requests from the larger community, and even from users editing within the topic area (I, for one, did not know probation was being discussed until it was enacted). This probation ensures that uninvolved admins and editors are kept at arms length precisely when we need them most.--Heyitspeter (talk) 17:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I think Polargeo has a valid point. Setting aside a special area for CC enforcement has not had a deterrent effect. On the contrary, it's as if WIkipedia is saying, "OK guys, if you want to fight, fight here." So fight they do, constantly, sometimes over major issues and sometimes minor issues. Rather than encourage users to calm down, this makes matters worse. However, I'm not sure that resorting to the usual Wiki methods is the solution. I think that all the commentators so far have described various aspects of the elephant without describing the whole beast. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Weakopedia (talk) 21:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Endorsing ScottyBerg's supportive commentary upon Polargeo's view. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:Lar

At bottom this is a behavioral issue, NOT a content issue. Those trying to paint it that way miss the point, or are deliberately obscuring it. SBHB claims that "The scientifically literate editors believe that the articles should predominantly reflect the conclusions of the scientific community" but I don't think there is any meaningful disagreement with that view among most folk. Further, if the edit process was working correctly, we would reach consensus about details in a calm, collegial and orderly manner if there were disagreement.

But editing in this area is not calm, collegial and orderly. It is contentious and unpleasant, marked by bitter and abrasive commentary from many participants, in what appears at first as warfare between two camps.

This is not new behavior at Wikipedia. We have seen it before, time and time again. Often, in a contentious topic, a "Wikipedia House POV" (1) develops and then gets fiercely defended... for example Scientology, Naked Short Selling, Homeopathy, Intelligent Design, Poland/Russia, Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, Cold Fusion, and so on (there are more examples to be sure). Sometimes (heck, almost always) it's the POV that has widespread support out in reality. That POV is not the issue. The issue is the tactics used to defend that POV, and the informal groups that grow up around defending it. Most people know these sorts of groups exist. Denying their existence in general is pointless.

Now, some will want you to believe that this is a battle between "the scientifically literate" and "the skeptics", as a whole. It's not. It is a battle between factions(2) , and not everyone who holds either view actually is in these factions. Further, some in the more powerful group tend to disparage anyone who does not instantly fall into line with their approach as "not one of us" and therefore a "skeptic"... exhibiting "You're either with us or you are against us!" style thinking.

No. Not acceptable.

I am far from a skeptic, but I do not agree up with the tactics employed by either of these camps. These groupings are the major problem area here, not the content itself, because most people get that GW is real. Most people, when they look into the tactics used, even (especially) if they agree with the content POV, are appalled.

The articles that resulted are generally accurate on the science, but there are loose ends at the edges. Any attempt to introduce any information that chips away at the edifice of certainty that AGW is exactly thus and such is fiercely resisted. Further, we have the BLP problem. Evidence has been introduced that skeptic BLPs slant negative over time, while AGW proponent BLPs slant positive over time. That evidence is wideranging but it gets shouted down (in detail) when presented. Even the NAME of an article (was it a hacking incident? An email theft? A leak? ClimateGate as everyone else calls it?) can be a source of warfare.

So then, that's the background.

The Climate Change sanctions were intended to improve the environment, but they did not explicitly acknowledge the existence of a grouping here. Unsurprising, as that sort of discussion is freakishly contentious. So the community took the path of least resistance and did not acknowledge the groups.

But the sanctions have been a mixed success at best. When enforcement actions have been brought against those outside the more powerful and entrenched group, they by and large have been fairly and evenly applied. Count that as a success. But when they have been brought against members of the informal group, by and large they have failed. In particular, WMC has been cautioned, admonished, warned, hectored and even sanctioned, over and over, but he persists. Why not? He has many stalwart defenders who say that the ends justify the means, that the science is what matters, and that he is beset by many on external blogs (while conveniently forgetting to mention that he gives as good as he gets on his own blogs). But WMC is a symptom of the general problem, not the sole villain.

There are groups on the other side of this, and fomenting of POV pushing among the skeptic blogs, to be sure, but they're going up against the House POV and will never win. (nor should they, by the way, actually "win" a content battle).

So what to do?

ArbCom needs to come out and explicitly state that yes, there are groups here, and that their activities have been on balance more harmful than beneficial, and that enforcement needs to take that into account. Without that statement, we are going to be forever trying to prove, over and over, in the face of defense in detail, what almost everyone already knows, but some won't admit.

If you endorse this view, you endorse:

  • that groups exist...
  • and that ArbCom should acknowledge their existence with a direct statement.

There are other things called for as well, such as refining the definition of "uninvolved admin", or setting up groups of admins rotating or suchlike. Those are good ideas but I leave those details to other views (many of which I will endorse) rather than trying to make this an omnibus.

1 - Thanks to Kelly Martin for this term
2 - Who? Folk (on both sides) who tend to show up and support each other almost reflexively... a good way to spot them in fact is that reflexive defense Another good way is to see who most vociferously attacks those trying to point out that such an informal grouping exists.).

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As writer ++Lar: t/c 15:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Heyitspeter (talk) 17:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Precisamente. [3] Évidemment. [4] Ja. [5] Who, on the face of this planet and several miles above and below, does not actually know this? C'mon, no b.s. Seriously. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Cla68 (talk) 05:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. I am endorsing under the understanding that I view that there are confluences of editors that may gather together supporting a specific pov upon a subject, and who may also again aggregate upon a similar pov, but may also bypass that second pov or even find themselves drawn toward a differing pov - in respect of both pro AGW and also skeptic/denialist viewpoints. In so far that there are such confluences apparent over some major CC related disputes, I think that ArbCom may need to review the specific issues that arise from the formation of such bodies of opinion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view
  1. I agree that this is a war zone and the issues are primarily behavioural, with a core of extremist POV pushing teams of editors making the articles a poisonous no go area for everyone else. I for one will never edit a climate change article and I admire the uninvolved admins who have volunteered to try and moderate this mess.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 17:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

View by User:ScottyBerg

I wandered into the climate change debate some weeks ago, and have hung around in a few articles, almost exclusively the talk pages, because I find the debate stimulating and interesting from several perspectives. I've written an essay with some observations. [6]. Comments are welcome and actively solicited for the talk page. My sympathies tend to go with the climate change people, but I'm not happy with some of the pigheadedness and lack of civility shown by some on that side. On the other hand, I've seen a backlash underway, which I would broadly define as climate change skeptics and those who have no opinion on CC, or perhaps even agree with the scientists, but feel that the behavior of "scientific types" has been poor, and requires harsh remedial action. For all intents and purposes, the battle lines have drawn roughly that way, "scientists vs. their opponents." It's not strictly "skeptic vs. scientists."

I think that no solution is going to work unless Wikipedia recognizes that there is a backlash, and that the backlash has not made things better. There have been controversial administrator actions and rhetoric that have done little more than splash fuel on the fire. Any solution to this situation needs to recognize that composition of the battle lines. If it is viewed simply as "scientists vs. skeptics" or "Wikipedia vs. bad editors" there will be no solution. Wikipedia needs to examine this issue with brutal honesty and self-appraisal. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. As drafter. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Perceptive Polargeo (talk) 13:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:BozMo

I wasn't planning to post other than endorsing the above call for rotating admins but the comments by Lar (which he has diluted a little) have prompted me to give a view.

  1. Trying to characterise tens of thousands of edits over a wide range of articles is not straightforward. It is something where even a good faith editor runs serious risks of Confirmation bias and where seeing patterns where none exist is expected.
  2. I do not like viewing editors as groups. The "science group" of editors identified by Lar displays some characteristic of team work (you see them referring questions to each other in areas of each other's specialty e.g. [7]) much like happens on Wikiproject Medicine but any kind of occasional "mindless support" is rare, and is often around things which are screamingly obvious. Anyway the rare possible knee jerk support always gets reported. And then it generally proves to be just a matter that PhD scientists share a similar view on the credibility of particular journals etc. Where they have formed a parallel view of the value of particular contributors this is more of an issue, but still appears parallel.
  3. IF a group stands out (and I prefer to think editor by editor), the rolling band of "skeptical&friends" editors seem to me to display more charateristics of always endorsing each other statements etc than the science group do, especially on the probation board and various RFCs. There are a few exceptions, but if you just look through the probation pages there is a group of editors who agree most strongly with each other and I am afraid I see Lar in the middle of it. Sure, thats a five hundred diff story and sure, I suffer from confirmation bias too but I definitely see it.
  4. The science group are certainly showing some signs of irritation with Lar and to a degree them being lumped together and treated with disrespect by him makes that inevitable. Even ones whom I regard as amongst the most patient and civil editors on WP, like SBHB, are unappreciative of the WP:BATTLE characterisations used of them by Lar. It is rather possible that, rather than this being people "ganging up" on Lar, Lar is significantly at fault (but I do not doubt his good faith in not seeing this, even though about half of all those involved in CC probation have said there is an issue on his RFC).
  5. WMC is probably the most scrutinised and baited editor on WP. Every possible infringement gets aired and discussed and many quite innocent edits are also the subject of complaint and scrutiny. The accusations keep being made and painstaking examination of the diffs generally reveals reasonable explanation. How much longer we will insist on holding him to a higher standard than the rest of us, and waste a lot of his time explaining reasonable behaviour (and then get surprised at and pounce on occasional displays of irritation) is an open question. But it has reached the point where drive-by complainants throwing a dozen diffs around at WMC need warning.
  6. My only area of concern on the current content remains BLPs. Living Persons who are viewed with contempt by the broad scientific community should still be treated with respect on WP and we do not always manage that. It is on BLPs that editors who share a scientific perspective which causes them to edit in an aligned way cause me discomfort. I wonder if BLPs should be split out into a separate probation.
Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
  1. --BozMo talk 09:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Nigelj (talk) 09:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -- (barring sentences 1 and 3 of point 6, assuming that "my/me" refers to the endorser) William M. Connolley (talk) 12:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Yes, quite good summary. Both the confirmation bias and the synoptic view among academically trained editors are well described. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. --Vsmith (talk) 13:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Polargeo (talk) 13:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. yep, fully agree SPLETTE :] How's my driving? 14:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Guettarda (talk) 14:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  9. I agree with the "groups" analysis and the discussion of BLPs. There's no question that there is a battle underway between climate change supporters and their opponents. I agree that their opponents are not necessarily skeptics. But to categorize either side as a "group" or similar language is unnecessarily divisive, provides no clear path to a solution, and implies collusion. However, there are civility and what I call "pigheadedness" issues on the scientific side that need to be addressed. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view

View by User:Example

Editors involved in either the enforcement of this probation or editing of this topic space endorsing this view
Fully uninvolved editors endorsing this view
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