User talk:Ju98 5
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Avianca Edit and its Date of Fundation
Hello,
In regards to the edit you have made on the page Avianca regarding the date of Foundation, there are several proofs that the creation date was 1919. please look at the discussion page the last item added by the user "". this is what the post says.
In fact there are strong evidences that this was the foundation date. and just because the airline is Colombian or South American is not right not to provide the correct date.
I am an active member of the Project Colombia and also Airlines Project. at this time most importantly I am aiming for proper information about articles related with Colombia to be accurate in any aspect possible. I have not changed the date because there is some discussion about this. but the below message created by the user Mekanos was enough proof to remove the lock the page had. unfortunately enough nobody had enough evidences to fight against this proof therefore there were no more discussions about this specific topic.
I will kindly ask you to please verify the sources provided in this discussion and reconsider giving the correct date of foundation to this Airline which shall be 1919.
"There are quite some points I would like to address here and excuse me for all what I'm going to write, hope you can all read through it. First of all, I have to say I am on the Avianca's 1919 foundation date side but not because I'm colombian but because there are some facts about it. As YSSYguy said before, he edited Qantas profile when someone changed it saying that now it's the oldest airline after KLM and Air France's alliance (which is clearly not accurate) so I think I can also keep nationalism bias at bay as long as there are good sources to rely on.
Second, I also agree with YSSYguy regarding why Avianca shouldn't be treated any differently than other airlines like Air France or British Airways (to mention some) that have their foundation dates after merging with some or many other previous airlines. Now, why those airlines don't have an older foundation date but the merging one? I have no idea... maybe there's a specific case for each one of them but all in all, Avianca's case is different and it's acknowledged by reliable and important sources.
Third, I also believe that the airline's website does not constitute a reliable third-party source and even though I think he goes a bit to far when he states that the "Colombian government does not constitute an impartial reference either for reasons of national pride", I will mention something particular about it later on.
There are also 2 particular aspects regarding this whole issue with Avianca. One is the role of SACO and the other one is the name change to Avianca. If, let's suppose, SACO was not involved at all and Scadta would've changed its name to Avianca, I guess we could all agree that its foundation date would've remained 1919, correct? After all, name or acronym change doesn't affect the origin of an airline... if not, then Avianca's foundation date would've changed when German Efromovich purchased it, changing its acronym to "Aerovías del Continente Americano". And second, the name change to Avianca. If Scadta would've continued operating under the same name after it took over SACO in 1940 (and kept it to this days), then we would agree that its foundation date was still 1919. Same example goes for Delta after it took over Northwestestern... or did Delta's foudnation date changed to January or February 2010? I don't think so.
And there's also this minor "technical" thing some people hold to... if it was a merger or if one airline took over the other one. In reality, you'll find it everywhere as a merger but it was a take over just as Delta and Northwestern, even though you'll find it on their article as a merger. Air France and KLM was not a merger, it was an alliance just as Summa was.
But in this case, Scadta HAD to change its name to Avianca because of the huge issues with the starting of World War II and any possible references to (nazi) German association, regardless if the airline was owned by Colombians, non nazi Germans, Americans or a mix of resources from different nations origin. The "alemana" (german) word in Scadta's acronym was no good. All in all, the year says it all: In the early 1940, Peter von Braun was forced to sell his shares in the airline to America's Pan Am and in june (same year), they completely removed the name "Scadta". As someone stated a long while ago, yes, all Scadta assets and staff (crew) remained the same. Saco was just a legal excuse to legitimize the name change after the so called "merger".
Going into the references, even though YSSYguy doesn't recognize the Colombian government as an impartial one, the Aeronáutica Civil (government agency in charge of regulating civil aviation, the aviation industry and of managing the Colombian airspace), released Resolution 04888 in 2001 stating (translated): "By Public Document 2374 of December 5th of 1919 from the Second Notary in Barranquilla, the "SOCIEDAD COLOMBO ALEMANA DE TRANSPORTES AEREOS -SCADTA", was constitued, and then, in june of (1940), changed its denomination for "AEROVÍAS NACIONALES DE COLOMBIA -AVIANCA". Source: http://www.anato.org/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=1&download=66 Do note I'm leaving aside their refernce to Avianca being the second oldest (active) commercial airline in the world. I'll adress that one later.
I guess it's much better to bring forth REALLY reliable third party sources (specially after all this long rant). Right now, I have 2 very good ones and if someone is not willing to accept this sources as valid, then I really have no idea what you want to read or from whom you'd like to read it. Basically, these references validates all the previous rant as they acknowledge Avianca as the second oldest airline in the world:
My first reference is Boeing. In 1937, Avianca (back then still known as Scadta) acquired 10 Boeing 247 airplanes. 70 years later, when Avianca in 2007 announced the order for 10 (funny, same number of airplanes lol) Boeing 787, John Wojick, vice president, Sales for Latin America and the Caribbean -- Boeing Commercial Airplanes, said: "This order reaffirms the enduring relationship Boeing has maintained with this historic airline for 70 years". In the same news release, Boeing references Avianca as "Colombia's largest airline and the second oldest commercial airline in the world". Source: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070329e_nr.html
My second reference is another famous airplane manufacturer: Airbus. When Avianca recieved its first Airbus 320, John Leahy, Airbus Chief Operating Officer, Customers said: "Avianca is the second oldest commercial airline in the world and we are honored to welcome such a prestigious airline amongst our big family of Airbus A320 operators". Source: http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/pressreleases/pressreleases_items/08_02_22_first_a2320_avianca.html Later, when Avianca recieved the first Airbus A330, the same John Leahy added: "We look forward to seeing our long range bestseller flying in the fleet of one of the longest established airlines of the world" Source: http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/pressreleases/pressreleases_items/08_10_03_avianca_a330200.html (all bold letters added by me)
So there are some historic events related to World War II, the clear and paramount need to change Scadta's name and the inclusion of SACO as the perfect excuse for the airline to take over it and legitimize the name change to Avianca. There's also a legal document from the Colombian government agency that specializes in these subjects. But above all, 2 key references from the two biggest airplane manufacturers in the world that oficially in their news releases, mention Avianca as the second oldest airline in the world. In Boeing's case, the timeline fits perfectly from 1937 to 2007 as they mention the 70 years that Avianca has been a Boeing user. Finally, I would like to bring a copy of the exact text that was written in 1940 in Barranquilla when the airline chaged its name to Avianca to prove (futher more) what was said back then, how Scadta didn't really ceased to exist but it was rebranded to Avianca taking as an excuse the "role" that Saco played but how all the previous assets from Scadta remained. I don't live in Barranquilla but maybe something could be worked out to get such Document...
I still don't understand the difference between Avianca and Air France and British Airways to mention some. But if Boeing and Airbus recognize it, if Avianca painted aircrafts to celebrate its 85 and 90 years (clearly not making up a random number) and if the Colombian government also recognizes it, there HAS to be a difference... and if not, then AF, BA and all other relevant active airlines should bring forth their reasons as to why their foundation dates should go before the ones they currently have if their cases have the same legal and historic benchmarks as Avianca's."
ABOUT AVIANCA BRAZIL
Dear JU98 5, Thanks for up-dating the article of OceanAir, now called Avianca. However there are a few things to take notice and then you will understand why I changed the name of the article from Avianca Brazil to Avianca (Brazil). OceanAir remains the official and judicial name of the O6 airline. It will however be marketed under the brand Avianca (without Brazil, therefore the parenthesis). It is a very similar case to TAM Airlines in Brazil and Paraguay. Thus Avianca Brazil does not exist, just Avianca, which to avoid confusion with the Colombian airline I suggested being referred to as Avianca (Brazil). OceanAir and Avianca remain separate juridical entities. Which are your thoughts about that? BRGDS, (Brunoptsem (talk) 01:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC))
PLEASE REPLY ON MY TALK PAGE AS I WILL NOT BE MONITORING YOUR PAGE
DG (talk) 22:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
File:SCADTAvianca Logos.png listed for deletion
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Orphaned non-free image File:AeroRepública.PNG
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Template:Republic of Colombia has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. — This, that, and the other (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Satena headquarters
About this edit Where is an RS that says that the headquarters of Satena is on the airport property? WhisperToMe (talk) 08:30, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
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Avianca
Hi, I have reverted your edits to Avicanca. Please see the Talk Page regarding this matter. --JetBlast (talk) 02:15, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of AeroSur (Colombia)
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