Talk:Christian Science/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 03:14, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be glad to take this review. In the next few days, I'll do a close readthrough of the article, noting any initial issues that I can't easily fix myself, and then go through the criteria checklist. Thanks in advance for your work on this one. -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:14, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unless anybody objects, I'm going to hold off on reviewing this one for a week or so, since the past 24 hours have seen a few content disputes; I'd prefer to let those play out and review the resulting version. Thanks to everybody for their work on this one, it seems to be coming along well. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, as one of the disputants, I'll hold off on involvement in this article/Talk page for a week or two to help it to settle down for review. Thanks for giving your time to this Khazar2.Be-nice:-) (talk) 21:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'd encourage you to work out anything you see as still deficient! I've got no problem waiting till there's consensus on these points. We'll give it a few days in any case. -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm OK with the article at the moment, more-or-less.Be-nice:-) (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, good to hear. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:06, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to note that I haven't forgotten this article, but am still holding off for now, as it looks like we've had a few reverts in the last 24 hours. This article has seen an enormous spike of activity in the past few months (3 of the 5 talk page archives are from just the last six months!) and I'd like to see how stable the current version is. Again, I hope editors will read this note as encouragement to keep working on any issues, not as a request that editing stop! I'm happy to wait. Thanks everybody for your work. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:29, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Initial readthrough

It looks like this article has indeed reached an island of stability, so I'll start with my review. Since this article has proved more controversial than any GA I've previously undertaken, I'll follow my close read for prose and sourcing issues with an attempt to review issues others have raised on this talk page. I've made minor tweaks to the prose as I went, so please double-check me and feel free to revert anything you disagree with.

Here are some comments on the first half; I'm hoping to get to the second half shortly.

"Eddy wrote that "God is incorporeal, divine, supreme, infinite Mind, Spirit, Soul, Principle, Life, Truth, Love."" -- since the later footnote cites several passages, it would be helpful to follow this quotation with a more specific footnote citing it more specifically.
"Christian Scientists believe that this opened up practical possibilities" -- what does "this" refer to here-- God's relationship with humanity, or Christ's proof of this relationship?
I switched a few instances of "man" to "humanity" to try to use more gender neutral language. However, I assume that the original (and perhaps the current) language of Christian Science was "God and man", so if the other seems more accurate to you, feel free to revert me.
"David Weddle writes ... " This present-day writing on Eddy is described in the present tense, whereas Stein and Rescher were described in past tense. I think either solution is okay, but this should probably be made consistent.
Not a GA point, but just wanted to comment that this article makes excellent use of block quotations to give the flavor of Eddy's words as well as the content.
"thinking whatever would be said were he present" -- would all the practitioners be men? If not, it's probably best to use to the awkward he or she, or to make practitioners plural and use "they".
"The first church was erected in 1886 in Oconto, Wisconsin" -- this threw me for a moment, since the previous sentence mentions she founded a church seven years earlier. But I assume one is the church as organization and the second as building? I wonder if it would help to say "first church building" to clarify that for other easily confused readers like myself.
"The church boasts one of the world's largest pipe organs, built by the Aeolian-Skinner Company of Boston." -- as a superlative claim, this should probably have a citation
"A project is currently under way " -- It would be helpful to at an "as of" here instead of currently, per WP:REALTIME
"individuals claiming to have been healed through Christian Science prayer" -- how about stating instead of claiming here, per WP:WTA -- Khazar2 (talk) 07:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on "Reception" section:

" Pamela Klassen wrote that " -- again flipping to the past tense for a modern-day commentator. It's probably worth making it more explicit in-text that Klassen is writing in 2009, also, since the paragraph is about other commentators on CS.
"gigantic heresy," -- is this comma in the original quotation? If not, it should be moved out of the quotation marks per MOS:LQ.

My impression on my first readthrough is that this is a solid and well-written article: clear, concise, and well sourced, with no immediately obvious neutrality problems. Thanks to everybody who worked to get it to this point. As a next step, I'll take a look at some of the supporting sources and other discussions on this page to check for completeness and neutrality. -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

Most of the other neutrality debates on the page appear dormant or resolved, but if there are any I'm missing, feel free to bring them to my attention.
The studies of increased morbidity among Christian Scientists seem worth including; these appear to be peer-reviewed articles on a relevant topic for this article.[1] Is there a reason these were cut?
Be Nice raises an interesting question as to whether the child deaths section may be a little long, but my personal opinion is that the length of this section is reasonable--this was a major national controversy that lasted for some time, has numerous reliable sources, and includes some significant religious-rights/parental-responsibility court cases. (I'd even venture to say that for a generation of Americans like myself, these cases are--fairly or unfairly--what the religion is best known for.) Anyway, five paragraphs on this issue doesn't seem to me to violate neutrality to a level that concerns the GA review, but of course I'll be guided by consensus if others disagree. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The "increased morbidity" included Amish et al and did not further separate the statistics (other than having 16% of the cases related to CS) - making tham problematic, alas. We also have no stats on overall increased morbidity on CS believers. Did anyone find actual "life expectancy" data at all? I also removed the names of children as not being of actual encyclopedic value here. And the "vaccination" claim which did not directly connect to CS is a problem - we nly really have the polio and measles anecdotes. I think this overall improves this article a hair. Collect (talk) 14:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, that makes sense. I suppose my own preference as an editor would be to give a sentence to this. But looking more closely--and realizing the CDC and JAMA are both talking about the same study here--it certainly doesn't fall under a "broad aspect" that needs to be covered to meet the GA criteria. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Medical Criticism

Alex, in relation to the Twitchell case, you have changed "The conviction was later reversed" to "Their conviction was later overturned on a technicality." I don't think the latter wording is a fair reflection of the situation: the couple were found to have acted in good faith in the context of circumstances outlined here: http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/416/416mass114.html. In any case, "overturned on a technicality" is both tendentious and tautologous. (All legal decisions are technical in nature.) Rather than getting into an edit war on this, can we agree on a fair wording? I'll leave it up to you to review the source info and come up with a fairer formulation.Be-nice:-) (talk) 11:47, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Content selectively being removed.

I see that mentions of vaccination have been removed down to a single line from [2] to the current article. I see the content on increased morbidity has been removed. The well sourced content that she was infleunced by Quimby has been removed (Christian Scientists don't accept the actual history) [3]. All mention of Christian Science being made to look like science has been removed (possibly due to a misunderstanding that in the 19th century "science" meant the general search for knowledge, which was not the case in 1872). The mainstream viewpoint is being watered down and removed. Compare what was there: [4] to what is now there at Christian_Science#Health_and_healing. A positive spin has been put on that section by going back to primary sources again (S&H), and by overly relying on the nytimes, while discarding academic sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:16, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Contrariwise, the article is far more balanced now than it has ever been. The issue of changes over time to CS are now addressed, and the use of pejoratives have been removed. Material abiut deaths is clearly given, and given due weight per WP:CONSENSUS. I would like to note that "Christian Scientists don't accept the actual history" would appear, on its face, to be a POV claim ab initio. As for the importance of Quimby - that is an editorial decision, not a POV decision. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess from your perspective of having not looked at the academic sources it would seem like I'm asserting it ab initio. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article is now in much better shape than it was a few weeks ago. The evolution of the article in its present form, including sources cited, has resulted from consensus editing. (BTW, I don't know what "actual history" means and neither would any contemporary historian, or philosopher of history for that matter.)Be-nice:-) (talk) 09:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please. Is this some sort of "everyone's version of history is equally valid" crap? What practitioners claim happened with the history is completely different what the reliable sources say; mostly because it's unflattering. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Collect is not interested in any reliable sources. See the talk page on the Christian Science article, he claims every reference I have listed breaks "NPOV", but the references I listed were written by reliable scholars such as Timothy Miller and Catherine Wessinger etc. SlimVirgin seems to have got the message and this user is now using some of the references I put on the talk page but this user seem to think they "own" the article, and any edit I or others make they revert, so I am just watching and we will see how their new edits go. Fodor Fan (talk) 23:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly note the actual talk age discussions where I note that making a long list of critical articles without any balance at all does seem to be a WP:NPOV problem. The talk page discussion, moreover, makes clear that I exert no "ownership" of an article which I have very few edits on. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV for you means to exclude anything critical of Christian Science. It just happens that the so called "critical" sources are the reliable ones published by scholars or in scientific papers, take a hint Christian Science is nutty fraud, why? Becuase that is what the sources say! Find me a single reference published outside of the Christian Science Church that is supportive of Christian Science? The 90% of references will be critical of Christian Science, there is no reason for a "balance" when the 10% are Christian Science sources published by Christian Science publishers. You are confused about WP:NPOV, with your logic every pseudoscientific article on wikipedia would be supported without any criticism, but if you look round you will see this is not the case, we don't need to balance articles when the majority of sources are against a specific subject. If the reliable sources say Christian Science is nutty fraud and filled with criticisms then that is what should be put on the article, not the nonsense claims from the tiny minority of CS sources... Infact there is no problem in using some CS sources (many are on the article) but to argue for a balance is just totally wrong.

If there are a million reliable sources against Christian Science and only ten in favour of it, are you really going to argue for a "balance"? :) Fodor Fan (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK -- if we postulate that CS is a "nutty fraud" as you aver from your own personal knowledge, we still have to follow WP:NPOV. I know this rankles crusaders agains "nutty frauds" but that is what Wikipedia is based on. When one editor comes up with twenty sources uniformly critical of a religion, and we have substantial sources from followers of that religion, we can not give excess weight to the critics. Else 99% of all religion articles would be filled with criticism of them as utter heresies as seen by all the other religions. Thus we neutrally pose the tenets of a religion, and list a few of the primary criticisms thereof. We do not list the thousands of books highly critical of Muhammed (for example) as a person in the article on Islam for very good reasons. What we do is present each side in some sort of balance. NPOV is not the same as "we state the absolute truth because we know what the truth is" it means we state what is stated on each side of an issue in reasonable balance for major views. Collect (talk) 01:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No you are utterly wrong that we try and balance views as equal. We don't try and pretend that creationism is equal to evolution for example. Or that global warming denialists have an equally valid point to the climate scientists. What we do is describe them neutrally, but that does not mean we give them extra credibility where it's not due. You admitted that you are not assigning weight to points made by the majority of sources because you mistakenly believe that wikipedia treats two opposing views as equally valid. The only time we aim for balance is when the reliable sources are divided WP:BALANCE: "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both approaches and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." What you are doing is rejecting the secondary and tertiary academic sources in the name of what you perceive to be balance. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:28, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I retract my previous comment about SlimVirgin, I thought we were making some progress but clearly not, this user yet again has deleted an edit I made and anyone elses edits. This user seems to think they own the article, they deserve a topic ban. Fodor Fan (talk) 02:06, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The aim is to use WP:CONSENSUS to make a "Good article". If your desire is to make the WP:TRUTH be in the article, I rather think you are in the wrong place - that is not how Wikipedia works. As for topic bans - generally the person who is never accepting of consensus and compromise is the one banned. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My aim was to go with what the reliable sources say collect, but no matter how many times you are told this, you don't seem to get it, and keep spouting nonsense. We will just let the Christian scientist SlimVirgin delete all the criticism and conclude Christian Science is valid on the article then! Indeed that is what this user has been doing, and they revert anyone elses edits. You got what you wanted. I am not wasting anymore time on this. Fodor Fan (talk) 14:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

AFAICT, SV is not a Christian Scientist, nor am I one. Enjoy editing elsewhere if you are leaving - I think the article is worthy of the GA seal now. Collect (talk) 15:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Collect, since you have based your edits on your own personal reasoning (such as claiming that science didn't mean natural science in the 1870's), you don't really have a leg to stand on complaining about others wanting what the academic sources say to be in the article (which you have removed in favour of the new york times). IRWolfie- (talk) 11:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The bit about "science" being used in a different context in the 1870s was from a reliable source - I do not have any personal experience of the 1870s, really, nor do I make assertions not found in reliable sources. My edits on the article have been based on Wikipedia policy only, and not on any personal biases whatsoever, and I regret your attempt to personalize this discussion. It does not appear to be of any utile value whatsoever. [5] shows some of the still-current disparate definitions of "science". [6] states the changes over time - including discourse on the meaning of "science" in the Constitution (also found in law books if you really wish to discuss this in depth)

At the Framing of the Constitution, ―science‖ meant a system of knowledge that comprises distinct branches of study or categories of knowledge. ...

1 WILLIAM F. PATRY, COPYRIGHT LAW AND PRACTICE 123 (1994) (―The term ‗science‘ as used in the Constitution refers to the eighteenth-century concept of learning and knowledge.‖); L. RAY PATTERSON & STANLEY W. LINDBERG, THE NATURE OF COPYRIGHT: A LAW OF USERS‘ RIGHTS 48 (1991) (―[T]he word science retains its eighteenth-century meaning of ‗knowledge or learning.‘‖); WALTERSCHEID, supra note 1, at 125 (―The use of the term ‗science‘ [in the Copyright Clause] is straightforwardly explained by the fact that in the latter part of the eighteenth century ‗science‘ was synonymous with ‗knowledge‘ and ‗learning.‖‘); Oliar, supra note 1, at 1809 (―[T]he eighteenth century meaning of ‗science‘ was close to the meaning of ‗knowledge.‘‖); Solum, supra note 1, at 47-56 (analyzing meaning of science at time of Framing); Malla Pollack, Dealing with Old Father William, or Moving from Constitutional Text to Constitutional Doctrine: Progress Clause Review of the Copyright Term Extension Act, 36 LOY. L.A. L. REV. 337, 376 (2002) (―‗Science‘ means ‗knowledge‘ in an anachronistically broad sense.‖); NEIL WEINSTOCK NETANEL, COPYRIGHT'S PARADOX 106 (describing the overriding purpose of promoting the ―progress of science‖ as broadly understood to include all products of the mind‖) (2008). For a discussion of judicial instances of construing science to mean general knowledge see discussion infra Part II.C.2 and infra notes 15 and 226.

I trust this indicates that it is not my "personal belief" that the word has had different meanings over time, or that I would give "personal beliefs" as a reaon for edits on Wikipedia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:42, 1 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some thoughts

Hello there; I've given this page a look through and have some thoughts. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no mention, or link, to Christianity in the lead; I know that the term "Christian" is in the title, but nevertheless, I believe that it should be in there.
I think we need to make it clearer that Baker was an American and that the religion was founded in the U.S. in the introduction.

We should clearly indicate that she was an American, but the "Christianity" bit is difficult - CS does not conform to usual definitions of Christianity, and the use of "Christ" as shown by the name of the church "Church of Christ, Scientist" indicates clearly that she is using the name "Christ" to denote a specific person she calls a "scientist" (old meaning of the word) and not that she considers that person or anyone to be a "Messiah" nor that she accepts any fundamental Christian tenets (not even accepting a death by crucifixion as a renet). So yes to "American" and no to "Christianity". Collect (talk) 20:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]