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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Werieth (talk | contribs) at 18:13, 2 July 2014 (Reverted 1 edit by 94.181.76.11 (talk) to last revision by PaleAqua.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Background

See also: Wikipedia:Archive.is RFC and Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Archivedotisbot

Archive.is is an archiving service similar to sites like Webcite and the Wayback Machine, offering different levels of service up to and including snapshots that are retained regardless of modern changes in a sites robots.txt file, which the Wayback Machine can abandon (potentially delaying rather than removing the potential for LinkRot), while Webcite has presented itself as having an uncertain long term future tied to funding. No issues have been found with the quality of the snapshots provided at archive.is.

In August 2013, a bot called User:RotlinkBot, created by Rotlink began linking Wikipedia articles to the new Archive.is service. This bot was not approved, and was therefore subsequently blocked. This block was procedural, and made based on the lack of approval, not the quality of the RotlinkBot's edits.

Following this block, edits matching edits from the bot, including the edit summaries, were made from hundreds of IPs, residential and business, from three different Indian states, Italy, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Qatar, Latvia, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Spain, France, Mexico, Austria, and South Africa. Based on fears that the IPs were not being used legally, these IPs, and User:Rotlink, self-identified as the owner of archive.is, were subsequently blocked. Rotlink has not commented on any of the blocks.

The previous RFC regarding Archive.is concluded that the site should be added to the blacklist and that all existing links to archive.is should be removed. In few cases, the removal of archive.is links has resulted in LINKROT.

Archive.is has never been added to the spam blacklist because the use of the blacklist would require the links to be removed before unrelated edits could be made to the article. Instead, an edit filter has been applied which prevents additions of the link, but does not prevent editing articles which simply contain the link.

The concerns about the potential for malware raised in the RFC have not materialized at this point, leading to arguments as to whether those fears were well-founded. An effort to get a bot approved to implement the RFC result stalled, indicating that the community may no longer believe the block to be warranted.

Archive.is does use advertising. The previous discussion showed that some editors considered this to be a major issue, but there was no strong consensus either for or against the site based on this.

Based on the questions of consensus raised during Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Archivedotisbot, the community should discuss whether the previous consensus is still in force

Options

Don't prohibit additions and don't continue removing (oppose/support)

  1. Support per above argument as RFC creator, the Archive.is service itself has shown no negative effects and provides a net beneficial service to our project. The site has presented no malware or evidence of ill intent beyond the actions of RotlinkBot and RotLink. Sanctions should remain undoubtedly on the implementation of the bot and spam linking as per usual, but Wikipedians using the service as an archive and adding links to the site should no longer be prohibited, nor should existing links added by individual users be removed, as nothing negative has been tied to them.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:53, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Further comments The opening statement was a collaboration between myself and the creator of the original RFC, Kww. It mentions advertising but even with adblocker off I fail to see any advertising on the site, certainly if it is there it isn't significant enough to notice, but given that I have been to the main page and back, I'm either blind or there are no adverts on the site. An IP on my talk page here also informs me that any adverts there are google custom advertising, and so I fail to see the issue anyway. This isn't the Pirate Bay filled to the brim with suspect advertising. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:48, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose. While the RFC was phrased in a circumspect manner, there's no reasonable doubt that the owner of archive.is used an illegal botnet to add links to Wikipedia, and I mean illegal in the sense of contravening actual law, not Wikipedia policies. We should not use our status as the sixth largest website to provide links to someone that has demonstrated that he will use compromised computers to achieve his goals. That places our users in unnecessary peril.
    Further, the use of advertising on a site that takes snapshots of other people's contents raises substantial copyright questions: it's hard to justify taking a complete copy of someone's work and using it to attract people to ads under current copyright law.—Kww(talk) 20:07, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Hm, I'm fighting SPAM etc. myself, but things are not necessarily as easy as they might look at first glance, Kww. There is still alot of doubt that the owner of archive.is has anything to do with Rotlink(bot) and the IP bot nets. It could also have been a competitor trying to kill archive.is' reputation and thereby eliminate competition. That would be illegal, but it is nonetheless a common practise in the ad business. (BTW. Not all bot nets are illegal. I'm not defending them at all, but I don't like premature conclusions.) So far, you have not provided any proof, therefore instead of trying to let assumptions look like facts, please provide (links to) actual facts that the bots were/are run by the owners of archive.is (or people related to them), otherwise your whole argument is void. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose Per Kww's points Werieth (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose Archive.is has demonstrated multiple times that they have no scruples in regards to respecting robots.txt rules, Injection of malware, replacement of ads, violation of Wikipedia Terms of Service, and abuse of process. Archive.is and it's advocates should demonstrate by acceptance elsewhere that the internet as a whole trusts them before they can earn our trust back. Hasteur (talk) 22:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you please point me (and other editors) to anything providing proof to your statements? I mean actual facts, not speculation and hearsay, as so far I have only seen the latter. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    "Why does archive.today not obey robots.txt?"
    The distributed botnet nature of how once their bot was blocked suddenly many IP editors showed up with the same editing characteristics as the bot from a great many distributed sites terminating at user based endpoints suggests that somehow they used malware to get their toolset on many different computers
    Again I refer you to their FAQ which suggests that the pages are being rewritten to inject Ads of Archive.today's choosing
    Terms of Use, but specifically I charge:
    Engaging in Disruptive and Illegal Misuse of Facilities
    Paid contributions without disclosure
    Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/RotlinkBot, Wikipedia:Archive.is RFC (and it's linked history)
    I shouldn't have needed to enumerate these but since you appear to be going for the "intentionally dense" argument, I feel the need to prove it Hasteur (talk) 12:53, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Hasteur, your insults are not required, Matthias asked a legitimate question and you've responded with more hearsay and speculation. Whatever Rotlink and Rotlinkbot were doing, that has no bearing on what Archive.is is doing and what functionality it serves. It is a far more flexible, powerful, and robust archiving service than the other two major contributors. Anytime you wish to retract your insult directed at Hasteur would be a good time to do so.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:47, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow Darkwarriorblake, you really must be blind. Its not a matter of hearsay and what Rotlink did is relevant. Rotlink is the owner of archive.is. His use of a bot net (Ive never seen a legal use of a bot net spanning such a wide geographic area) is proven. Its not hearsay, Just because we dont have the person admitting it doesnt mean that its not fact. Usage of malware to propagate itself and its willingness to ignore website's policies is very questionable at best. If you really want a good solution just ask the WMF for one. Taking over website or going into partnership with archive.org is a far better solution that using a site that is a know source of abusive behavior. Werieth (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if any of it were provable beyond speculation, the site has been sanctioned since the original RFC and the first time it attempted to do something of a similar nature it would be gone forever from Wikipedia. The important part is that it does what is necessary, and it is a far superior archiving service to anything else on offer, and it continues to operate without Wikipedia. It isn't some waiting harbinger looking for the slightest weakness in our defenses to inundate us with useful archives. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 18:13, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    So lets ignore the fact that they use illegal bot nets, probable malware and abusive behavior, just because you think that they are useful? Werieth (talk) 18:18, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Again you prove my point "probable" malware, not sure what you mean by abusive, I assume you mean mass link addition, which is spam and those links should have been reverted, the issue is that it didn't stop at spammed links. Bot nets and illegal, again both are theoretical, nothing proven and nothing to do with archive.is. If a bot started spamming Wikipedia with links to foxnews would we ban foxnews or blame the botnet? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 18:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Usage of an illegal bot net is not "probable" or "theoretical", if you know anything about cyber security you could easily identify it as such. as Hasteur states below, if a site adminstrator used similar tactics regardless of who it was (CNN/FOX/MSNBC/BBC/whoever) A) any reputable source wouldnt do that. B) our response would be the same. had this been Fox the fallout of such an action would mean massive problems for them and probable lawsuits, investigations by the FBI, FCC, and probably a dozen more agencies due to misuse of electronic communications. The fallout of the negative publicity alone would probably mean that anyone involved including the CTO and CEO would be terminated, and possibly sued. I use the term probable malware because I dont know of any other method to distribute software to peoples computer without their permission, which is what happened in this case. If you try to deny that, Ive got some nice ocean front property in Kansas for you real cheap. Werieth (talk) 19:19, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Your analogy is incorrect. If a editor registered, made a bot that started swapping out references going to ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN/etc to a similar article at MyLiberalNews.com that was caught operating outside the bot's own userspace, that started having a Bot Requests for Approval (but was withdrawn), that in the process of the BRFA it was discovered that the editor has a significant interest in MyLiberalNews.com (owner/writer/etc), that later when a horde of IP addresses start doing a replacement of links again in the same style as the original bot, that the wikipedia community comes to a consensus that MyLiberalNews.com should be prevented from being added to any new pages, then yes we'll hold the site responsible if it appears that the actions which caused the editor/bot to be blocked in the first place are still continuing in evasion of the block/ban. Hasteur (talk) 19:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support Archive.is is not my preferred archiving site for various reasons, but for as long as noone brings forward any proof that Rotlink(bot) and the possible IP bot net was/is actually controlled by the owners of archive.is (or people related to them), or that contents archived at archive.is were altered or manipulated which would make archive.is an unreliable site, I feel bound by the basic rule of "in dubio pro reo". All I have seen brought forward so far "as facts" were not actual facts but speculative assumptions and suspicions. Based on the little evidence we have so far, Rotlink and the bots could just as well have been controlled by a competitor in the archiving or ad business trying to harm archive.is' reputation and thereby eliminate a competitor. Therefore deleting all archive.is links right now is a harmful over-reaction. It not only harms archive.is, which so far has been a rare/valueable resource for us, but it harms us as well, as it destroys valueable contributions by editors and makes verifying facts more difficult. Of course, we should continue to block Rotlink(bot) and remove links actually added by bot nets. If archive.is would actually turn out to be a malicious site somewhen in the future, we could nuke them in a split-second and disable any immediate threats simply by muting the archiveurl= parameter and then run a bot to remove the archive.is url before reenabling archiveurl=. Alternatively, we could create separate archive parameters for the few common archive sites, so that we can centrally enable or disable them on an individual basis. We could also pass the archive urls through another template in order to have a chance to filter them out in case of any actual problems arising. Doing this would also turn out to be useful if an archive site's structure of semi-static links would change in the future. I consider this to be a much more reasonably approach to a - so-far - purely hypothetical problem. While we should keep an eye on it, no immediate actions are required. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 22:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    There are a few legitimate bot nets, however given the distribution and number of nodes it was not a legal bot net. The person who ran the bot was the website owner. I dont recall exactly where/when that happened but I know before the mass bot attack there was a discussion with the website owner and some improvements where made to archive.is as a result. But the fact that Rotlink operates archive.is is not in dispute. preventing archive.is isnt as simple as disabling the archiveurl parameter for that link. The bot attack used some very sneaky/devious methods. Often it obfuscates the original url, also the website owner took snapshots of the wayback machine's archive and then removed both the original URL and the link to the wayback, leaving only the archive.is url. Thirdly I have seen a lot of cases where links to a valid known and trusted site where hijacked to point to archive.is without notifying the reader. The only way you would know that a Link to the BBC was hijacked to point to a different location, with trust issues, instead of the valid target BBC is to mouse over the link and look for the target of the URL. Werieth (talk) 00:10, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose per Hasteur. Chris Troutman (talk)
  7. Oppose per Kww and Hasteur. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:32, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Oppose - There are too many uncertainties, even as to what law the server is subject to. It is not subject to US law. The domain is registered in Iceland, but the servers appear to be in Prague, and one of the name servers is in Lichtenstein. There are too many uncertainties as to what the purpose of the archive is. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose - Per Kww's arguments in particular. The problems with the archive, even if only half of them are only slightly true, far outweigh the benefits. - Aoidh (talk) 00:16, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Oppose If Rotlink is willing to use botnets to spam here, there's no telling what he could decide to make his site do someday. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Oppose per Hasteur. PaleAqua (talk) 01:58, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Oppose Whoever is behind archive.is has demonstrated that they are willing and able to do anything, and they cannot be trusted. If thousands of links are established on Wikipedia, the archive operator can later do whatever they want when a link in an article is clicked. Johnuniq (talk) 02:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Oppose Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I've supported the removal of archive.is links for a while since I don't think anyone who has operated a botnet in that way can be trusted. I would note I'm somewhat confused about all this talk of advertising and copyvios @Kww:. The previous RFC did not find any evidence of advertising. The FAQ doesn't say they are currently advertising, all it says is they may include advertising after 2014. I don't know if it's changed because otherwise @Hasteur:'s comments seem confusing. But I see someone in the previous RFC suggesting it said the same thing and this archive from 2013, presuming it's accurate, says the same thing as it does now [1]. And I don't see any advertising currently, so unless someone can actually show some evidence of advertising, I'm going to have to conclude this is an incorrect claim.
    Now while I'm not an expert on copyright law, but even if running an advertising on an archival site is a violation, I'm not convinced that the fact a site may include such ads in the future mean it's in violation now, and therefore prevent us from linking to it. @Moonriddengirl:. Presuming I'm right, there's no copyvio concern arising from advertising currently so it's not something we have to worry about for another 6 months at a minimum.
    The only other copyvio concern I can see is that the site doesn't respect robots.txt. This is a greater concern. I will note however it's also unlikely to be an issue except in those cases where the robots.txt would have prevented archival, so it's not all links that are affected. See also my comment below.
    Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Oppose The archive.is links present a possible (even if not confirmed) threat to readership. Immediate removal is more important that having ~16,000 some articles with dangling references most which can be fixed in time. --MASEM (t) 15:31, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support I see no evidence that the links to archive.is are currently harming Wikipedia readers or that the archived content is being altered. I edit mostly comet and asteroid articles, and the JPL Small-Body Database and Minor Planet Center database do not allow the WayBack Machine to make archives due to robots.txt. Orbital solutions for newly discovered objects can significantly change every time the observation arc doubles. -- Kheider (talk) 17:01, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    @Kheider:, Are you aware of the botnet abuse performed by the site owner, and mass abuse by them? Do you know why the JPL and MPC forbid archiving? Werieth (talk) 17:10, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    From what I have read it seems that there is strong evidence that the author lacks good social skills since he did not bother to respond to any Wikipedia talk page messages. But that does not mean the author is malicious. I know a lot of programmers with poor people skills. (I do agree that the unapproved mass bot edits should be reverted.) -- Kheider (talk) 17:22, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    @Kheider:The site owner used an illegal bot net to preform a distributed multinational prong attack to force links to their site into wikipedia. If this was just a failure to respond to talk page messages it wouldnt be an issue. However the site owner ignored Wikipedia policy, WMF terms of use, evaded blocks, and used deceptive tactics to propitiate links to their site. Werieth (talk) 17:31, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    The botnet mass-links were not approved so those mass edits should be reverted. But that does not make archive.is itself malicious. As I understand it, you can not be certain the owner of archive.is actually made all the botnet edits. -- Kheider (talk) 17:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Illegal bot nets by definition are malicious. If you take the time to examine the evidence, timing, style and other characteristics you can reach a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that the bot net was used to run the rotlinkbot code. If the owner of archive.is did not do it himself it was done with their knowledge at least. Werieth (talk) 17:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Or more specifically, when all the observable evidence is combined (the use of bot nets to add links, the nature of archive.is's practices), it smells like something incredibly fishy, and while there might be a legitimate case, this would absolutely need to be communicated by the person(s) behind it, which is not happening. They've had a chance to explain their motives and haven't decided to engage, so we're going to assume there's something malicious here. --MASEM (t) 17:58, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Oppose to "don't prohibit additions" part and support to " don't continue removing", per my posts under options number 2 and 3. Mayast (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support per Kww, Hasteur, Masem, Werieth. archive.is provides a useful service and no harm to articles or users has been shown. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:12, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support. While the RFC was phrased in a circumspect manner, there's no reasonable doubt that the owner of archive.is used an illegal botnet to add links to Wikipedia, and I mean illegal in the sense of contravening actual law, not Wikipedia policies. We should not use our status as the sixth largest website to provide links to someone that has demonstrated that he will use compromised computers to achieve his goals. That places our users in unnecessary peril.
    Further, the use of advertising on a site that takes snapshots of other people's contents raises substantial copyright questions: it's hard to justify taking a complete copy of someone's work and using it to attract people to ads under current copyright law.—Kww(talk) 20:07, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    You have no evidence of any wrong doing and it is not reasonable to throw accusations against the site or its usefulness, if the aim was to archive the web, post links on wikipedia, and profit, then that went out the window after the last RFC and the site would be shut down. Walt Disney wasn't a great guy either, but we don't remove the Disney articles because it helps funnel profits into Disney's pockets, Rotlink and Archive.is are not the same thing. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:20, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    This demonstrates solely that you have not taken the time to analyze the IPs presented in the previous RFC or other discussions, not any weakness in my argument.—Kww(talk) 21:47, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose per above. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:20, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Per Kww's points Werieth (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Strong oppose see my reasoning in response below. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support with the caviat that the links not be absolutely lost but replaced with appropriate replacements. Something that I observe Kww has been kicking and screaming against. Hasteur (talk) 22:30, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose, see comments below. Corvoe (speak to me) 20:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Oppose. See reasoning in my detailed response above. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 23:09, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Oppose The links should be replaced with other archive links first before removal. Del♉sion23 (talk) 00:30, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm genuinely confused by your comment, Delusion23. Do you support or oppose this proposal (the removal of links)? Supporting this proposal and supporting proposal 3 would be "remove links after replacing them with another archive", which would seem to be what you are saying.—Kww(talk) 00:49, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Support removal if they are replaced with links from another archive. I don't support the removal if they are not being replaced. (sorry that it was confusing) Del♉sion23 (talk) 09:19, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose. Bertaut (talk) 02:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Oppose Removing these links without discretion and without facilitating a shift to other archives is harmful to the life of the articles. I caught this being done on one of the articles I watch, and by chance archive.org had mirrored the source at the right moment in time so I was able to repair the rot. Other articles might not be so lucky. If it's decided that some or all archive.is links should be removed from Wikipedia, then it should be done deliberately and with a plan of including other archived sources to ensure that the removal does not harm the article. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:38, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I have an example of such a 'less lucky' article on my watchlist. Yesterday, Werieth removed the archive.is link for the Foreverly (2013) album sales, and when I expressed my frustation with that action, he responded by providing a different URL that was archived in January 2010, before the album was even recorded (!), and also leaving a 'friendly' message on my talk page. The absence of sales numbers reference in that particular article probably isn't a big deal, but it's one of many articles in which the refs are being removed while no other alternative captures exist. As you can see below, I strongly support the third option. — Mayast (talk) 22:34, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support I don't care if there's a replacement or not. Wikipedia is not a business partner of anyone, for any reason. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:12, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    What on Earth are you talking about? This is not a question of being in business with anyone nor promoting and so I assess, based on your comments, that you haven't read the opening. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:43, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support per Kww and Chris troutman. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support - Remove the links. We don't need an alternate archive. Wikipedia is its own archive. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    You don't seem to understand what an archive is. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:57, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support - Per Kww and Chris. I don't believe these links don't belong on Wikipedia, whatever perceived good they do does not justify it. - Aoidh (talk) 00:22, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support Per my comment above. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Support Per Kww and, frankly, the juvenile display at ANI. Protonk (talk) 01:02, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support reversion of damage caused by block evaders is business as usual. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:17, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Conditional support - Conditional removal in cases that there are no other links, the links that were being archived should be restored even if they are dead or replaced with other sources first. See "Require that another archive alternative exists before removing link". Full support in the case of external links sections. PaleAqua (talk) 02:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support The archive operator cannot be trusted, and the links have to go, per this and previous discussions. Johnuniq (talk) 02:06, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Partial support See my comment above for why I support. Nil Einne (talk) 07:08, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    As for why it's partial, as I've expressed at AN my view is similar to PaleAqua. I will only support if citations are not removed in their entirety, as has happened in the past. I will not support removal of citations, even in the case of a completely bare URL and where the archive.is URL doesn't work, since it's possible that the original URL or an alternative archive source can be recovered, e.g. from the history of the article or by searching for the archive.is URL. While the info will always be present in the history, it's unrealistic to expect people are going to be aware that the info was cited, and the citation was removed without some indication this happened in the current page (preferably the talk page too).
    I also now definitely feel that the archive.is should not be removed if is the only URL and it's a web only citations (in other words, this doesn't apply to offline new sources, journals etc where the URL is just convience link) until the original URL is recovered from archive.is, even if there may be enough info in the citation to find the URL. (This includes cases where archive.is itself isn't working for reasons I outlined earlier.)
    I'm fine with removal even if the original URL is dead and there's no current alternative archive, even though I recognise having the archive.is URL may assist in finding an alternative archive and it's possible no other archive will be found. One of the factors of course is that anyone looking for an archive could easily still lookup and see if archive.is has a copy and then use that to help them find out copies so it's not really that big a loss. And as I've said above, I don't think we can trust archive.is, so it's not something we want to keep around for ever so the apparent lack of an alternative archive is something we'll have to live with until a solution is found.
    As I've said at AN, I'm not saying we have to keep the archive.is as a clickable link. I'm fine with hidding the URL, or even doing something like putting a hidden comment with AISID where the ID is contained if people feel it's necessary. (In cases where it's not the archive.is ID but the full URL, then it's trivial to recover the original URL without visiting archive.is so it shouldn't be an issue.)
    But as I've also said, I think there's a fair chance the numbers are small enough that they can be dealt with manually within a few months. And combined with the lack of any real evidence of current harm no matter how dodgy the people behind archive.is may seem, I don't personally feel it's big deal to keep the likely small number of cases where archive.is is the only URL until they are dealt with.
    And just to be clear, I'm only referring to citations. I'm fine with the complete removal of external links to archive.is.
    Nil Einne (talk) 06:56, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Support They have to go, they present a danger (even if not malignant at the present time) to our readership. Damage control in the safer enviornment can be done later. --MASEM (t) 15:33, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Strong oppose when no alternative archives exist.
    Neutral if the archiveurl would be replaced with another archive with similar time of capture (and not captured for example three years earlier, as with Foreverly). —
  23. Oppose per Kww, Masem, Werieth. archive.is provides a useful service and no harm to articles or users has been shown. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:12, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Oppose unless replaced with alternative archive/source, concerns raised doesn't seem serious enough to justify damage this can cause.--Staberinde (talk) 13:54, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose The benefits or archiving are small compared to the legal questions involved.—Kww(talk) 20:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, it would be nice if we lived in a world powered by candy floss and dreams but we don't, the near death of webcite is evidence of that, an archive site using adverts is not a bad thing, most of the sites we source will have adverts. If the site is being spammed that is a different story but this RFC is not about allowing RotlinkBot to spam links, and noone has to use Archive.is links if they are morally opposed any more than anyone else has to use webcite because they don't have faith in it's longevity. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:20, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose Per Kww's points Werieth (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Strong support The original intent of using archive.is was to help with WP:LINKROT and provide an alternative to WebCite or Wayback Machine. I have personally seen User:Werieth working their way through countless articles removing all of these links over the past few days, and not replacing any of them with a valid alternative to the archive.is link. Myself and others have not taken fondly to this editing, which many of these opposers (see an example on Werieth's talk page here) are considering disruptive. By removing all these links with out a replacement, is doing more harm than leaving them on the site until replacements can be made, in my opinion. If archive.is is considered illegal in actual law, then fine, let's get the links off the site and we won't continue adding new ones. But in some cases, these archive links are all that is remaining of the sourced content. So there has to be a solution to properly remove the links with correct replacements to fulfill the original editor's intent of having the link archived, and if the original url does not exist anymore, a secondary alternative needs to be figured out to preserve that content, with out just blatantly removing the one link to the source because an RfC told us so. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support Per Favre1fan93 points. I've suggested multiple times, but the editor leading the charge in scorched-earthing any Archive.is link refuses to come to a compromise. Hasteur (talk) 22:33, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Strong support per Favre1fan93 as well. Corvoe (speak to me) 20:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support. See my reasoning above. Also per Favre1fan93 above - I too am serious concerned about Werieth's continued behaviour trying to create facts by removing archive.is links all over the place in the face of ongoing discussions and no established consensus. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 23:12, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    There was an RfC already that established that these links are unacceptable. So please do not mis-represent the issue. Werieth (talk) 23:58, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    As I understand it, the general consensus was to remove links added by bots. -- Kheider (talk) 16:46, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Strong support per Favre1fan93 also. Spc 21 (talk) 00:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Strong support When we deprecated Template:Wikify we replaced it with other helpful templates before removing it. When we deprecated the ratings parameter on the Album Infoboxes we moved the ratings to the article body text while removing it from the infobox. This way no information was lost. These archive.is links should be removed, but why the rush? They should be replaced with alternatives before being removed, otherwise valid sources are being removed from Wikipedia for no good reason. The RfC decision stands, but the aftermath could be handled a lot better. Del♉sion23 (talk) 00:29, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support. As per Favre1fan93's argument above. Bertaut (talk) 02:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Strong support per Favre1fan93, and my comments at Wikipedia talk:Archive.is RFC#Any alternatives to Archive.is? from February.— Mayast (talk) 16:11, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Oppose per Kww. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:12, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Oppose per Kww. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Oppose - Why do we need an alternate archive? Wikipedia maintains its own history and good backup. This option isn't persuasive. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Oppose - Per Kww. I don't find the argument that "The site is bad but the world isn't perfect" to be particularly compelling. - Aoidh (talk) 00:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Oppose We don't require this for any other spam link we remove. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Support per Favre1fan93, but only for links used as sources. Neutral if used in external links sections. Just because the site might be bad, doesn't mean that the information it archives is bad. I see this as very similar to what happens when a link becomes dead. We don't just remove a reference because a link becomes dead, we try to find a good link first or a another source. PaleAqua (talk) 01:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Clarification: I am also fine with a solution that de-activates the link while leaving a source reference for example by hiding the link, or just having the address in a comment along a request for editors that see it to replace with a better link. PaleAqua (talk) 09:03, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Oppose Previous discussions have established that the links need to go—that is standard procedure for spam. Energy might better be directed at persuading the WMF to help a reputable archive. Johnuniq (talk) 02:10, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Mostly neutral I don't see the need for archive.is when the original URL is working, if anything, it may discourage people unaware of the controversy of finding an archive link. As I said above, archive.is is not a long term solution and so for some dead links, it's possible we'll never have a suitable archive. For dead links where an alternative archive does exist, I'm sorry to the reader for the temporary loss of the source, but we also have to weigh that up against the issues from linking to a site run by someone with such dodgy practices even if there's no evidence of current harm and I think people have had plenty of time to replace archive.is links. Still I wouldn't completely oppose people being given more time, but they have to accept in cases where the original URL is present (whether working or not), they're not going to get unlimited time to replace the archive.is link. Nil Einne (talk) 07:19, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: When a webpage is still online or an alternative capture exists, I have no problem with archive.is link being removed or replaced with another archive, and I think some of the users supporting this option would agree with me. But in multiple articles archive.is links have been removed while there are no alternative captures – and those reference sources have now become dead links, probably forever. — Mayast (talk) 19:16, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose The danger of the links is more a concern than having an archiveurl. We are not wiping the history of these articles, so as long as the diff where the link was removed, editors can go back to figure out what the archive.is link was and capture the details in a safer manner. --MASEM (t) 15:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support, especially for links used as sources. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:50, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support as alternative archives are not always available and removing a verifiable source harms Wikipedia. -- Kheider (talk) 17:08, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support There are many situations where they are being removed, resulting in the archived content being lost forever and I cannot ever support the quality of articles being brought down. STATic message me! 18:30, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support - danger of links not serious enough to justify removal without replacement.--Staberinde (talk) 13:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support So long as we only support a single outgoing URL to the content, we're going to be squabbling over which is the preferred archiver. There are no substantive technical barriers to citation templates that support many outgoing URLs, even to systems that are in effective competition with each other. See for example {{Authority control}}, which links to multiple authority control systems. Stuartyeates (talk) 22:42, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Neutral - Why do we need a non-Wikipedia archive? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 10:53 am
    Because websites customised for specific content are always going to do a better job of that context than generic ones. For example: deep-linking to a WP:MEDRS in a MEDLINE-type archive is always going to provide better context and more tools than we can do in Wikipedia. This kind of context is basically what archival studies is all about. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Comment I'm not really sure how this is relevant to the rest of this RfC. I'd support this as long as it didn't include archive.is (by any of its many names). Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Strong support - We don't link ISBN directly to Amazon, Barnes and Noble etc, but to a system that allows access to many different catalogs. The same should be true for archives. I'd almost rather see some sort of wikidata for link archival and allow various archive links to be associated with them, similar to how links work to articles in other languages. PaleAqua (talk) 01:56, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Archive.is does use advertising -- Fatal - The fact that the facility utilizes advertising and thus presumably makes a profit is a fatal issue, Archive.is should be blocked, banned, excluded from anything to do with Wikipedia. Us volunteers don't get paid for the work we are doing and yet our work has value, we do not want parasites making money off of our work. Damotclese (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this comment in the right section? What does that have to do with if we should provide options for multiple archive sites? This question is not about archive.is, but on allowing support for multiple archives for links that might go dead. advertisements are actually a good reason not to favor a single external resource and was one of the reasons why we already don't just link all books to Amazon etc.PaleAqua (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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