Talk:Suicide

book -- in new translation (may be relevant for improving history section)

Farewell to the World: A History of Suicide by Marzio Barbagli, translated by Lucinda Byatt, 2015, Polity Press Jodi.a.schneider (talk)

Misleading statistic?

The statement "Three quarters of suicides globally occur in the developing world" is in my opinion misleading. The WHO fact sheet says "75% of global suicides occur in low- and middle-income countries." I'd suggest that 75% of the worlds population lives in low and middle income countries, so that living in a low or middle income country does not increase the tendency toward suicide. I'd suggest deleting this statement, but I hesitate since it is sourced from the WHO fact sheet. But if the WHO fact sheet presents a statistically invalid argument, we shouldn't repeat it, right? What do you think? Marfinan (talk) 10:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Why was the WHO reference removed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Doc James Why was this edit based on the WHO source removed? [1]

You are adding text not support by the reference. You added "Pesticide self poisoning is the most common form of completed suicides worldwide, with around 30% of global"

Where does it say this is the "most common"?

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:20, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

http://time.com/3270766/pesticide-poisoning-is-the-leading-method-of-suicide/ for the time being. I will locate the WHO sourceCharlotte135 (talk) 12:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

You used a source. It was this one [2] and it does not support the text.

Time misrepresents this WHO new release.[3] Not the first time I have seen the popular press make mistakes like this and again why we do NOT use the popular press for medicine. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh, very sorry. Other very high profile organizations also made this error then! So if TIME made this error, why am I being punished for it? This isn't fair Doc James.Charlotte135 (talk) 12:46, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

You know very well that we all much use high quality sources. And most importantly we must reference the sources we use. That you are using TIME and than putting in place WHO is not at all cool. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Doc JamesNo I certainly don't know very well. If TIME got it wrong why are you blaming me? And I resent your insinuation. The stats are very confusing as you know.

On that note, again I ask, can you please just paste the actual sentence here please Doc James, where the WHO source uses the terminology "suicide attempt" rather than "suicide behaviors" which is the term the WHO and CDC use nowadays, when referring to global not USA stats. I just can't find it in the WHO source you quoted? It would be really helpful, because this is what this is all over. The wording suicide attempt over suicide behaviors was Flyer22reborn's argument too. We established consensus on the term "suicidal behaviors" 4 days ago. We compromised. We all walked away. 3 days later you suddenly changed the wording to suicide attempts again? And started this whole debate up again. And then accused me of edit warring!

So yes, it is very very important you produce the sentence please Doc James, from the WHO, using the words suicide attempt rather than suicide behaviors for global statistics. Thank you.Charlotte135 (talk) 13:39, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Suicide attempt

CDC states suicide attempts more common in women than men."However, women are more likely to express suicidal thoughts and to make nonfatal attempts than men." (2105) and "Women report attempting suicide during their lifetime about three times as often as men"

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:08, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Doc James Doc James, I hate to say this, again, but the CDC are for USA only, as you very well know. As you also very well know, we are only talking about the WHO source you are using, as it generalizes to global not USA statistics. Flyer22reborn's whole contention was as you know, we use suicide attempt not suicide behaviors for global generalizations. That is what dragged us all back here, after we had all reached consensus through compromise, and then you accuse me of edit warring! We had reached consensus days ago and I compromised. So, again please just provide the actual sentence for global generalizaation purposes. The CDC is why I correctly changed it to USA. And that was not a revert by the way. Nor was it disruptive. It was factually correct.

So, again, just the actual sentence from the WHO source please Doc James, where it uses the words "suicide attempt" not "suicide behaviors" which is what we established consensus on and you suddenly changed 3 days later (without consensus) and without a reliable source it now seems. I know you are very important to Wikipedia and I don't mean to correct you here, so please, just the sentence from the WHO source, so it verifies the Global as you very well know. I just can't find it anywhere. The WHO use "suicidal behaviors" not "suicide attempts" Thank you.Charlotte135 (talk) 14:26, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

You mean <ref>{{cite book|last1=Krug|first1=Etienne G.|title=World Report on Violence and Health|date=2002|publisher=World Health Organization|isbn=9789241545617|page=191|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=db9OHpk-TksC&pg=PA191|language=en}}</ref><!-- Quote = rates of non-fatal suicidal behaviour tend to be 2-3 times higher in women than in men -->

We must paraphrase so using other terms that mean the same is required. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

And this ref from who says "More males commit suicide than females but more females attempt suicide."[4] so the language is used. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:49, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

A 2015 review "One of the most consistent findings in suicide research is that women make more suicide attempts than men, but men are more likely to die in their attempts than women."[5]

This bit is interesting "One reason for the lack of investment in female suicidal behavior may be that there has been a tendency to view suicidal behavior in women as manipulative and nonserious" and "In most countries, men die by suicide at 2–4 times the rate of women, despite the fact that women make twice as many suicide attempts as men." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:54, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Doc James I think we should stick with the WHO source given the source you quoted uses the WHO data. Back to our main point though, you very well know Doc James that non-fatal suicidal behaviour refers to other behaviors like suicide ideation etc. It is not the same as suicide attempts as we all know. So paraphrasing it doesn't make sense. Suicide attempt is clearly defined as intention to commit suicide. We have 2 options now IMO. One, we say USA only, like I said today and you actually reverted Or option 2, we use non-fatal suicidal behaviour like we had correctly used and settled on through consensus, and you changed to suicide attempt without consensus, that is, if we are going to generalize to global stats. Which should we choose please Doc James? However either way, this clearly proves I was neither edit warring, and more importantly my edits have been factual and entirely correct based on our WP policy. I'd like to move on from this nonsense which I'm sure you would too. So which of the 2 is it please?Charlotte135 (talk) 15:15, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

We have lots of sources that say the same such as this [6] which found a 1.4X higher rates of suicide attempts among females in Europe. You could try a RfC. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:32, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Why don't you just compromise here and we let it go. The WHO uses the term "non-fatal suicidal behaviour" when referring to global stats. Why are you disputing the WHO Doc James? Doesn't make sense. And any other source you produce will simply base their content on the WHO? What do you think. Go back to the consensus, formed compromise we all settled on at talk a week ago, and we let it go. The WHO is pretty reliable IMO. What do you think?Charlotte135 (talk) 15:43, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

And at any rate we should obviously remove all sources currently in the article pertaining to te point we are discussing, if you are not going to correct the wording. As it stands, readers are being misled Doc James as we now have established. Can you do that please?Charlotte135 (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Doc JamesDoc James, our dispute is not over statistics. It is purely over the terms suicide attempt and non fatal suicidal behaviors. Our dispute is over nothing else. Never has been. I'm perfectly okay with the 2-4 stat as I've said over and over, (so I'm not sure why you are bringing up gender), this has nothing to do with gender as you know. But the WHO does use the wording "non fatal suicidal behaviors." for that statistic to be used in the article for global generalizations. Would a 3rd opinion help here do you think? Alternatively, can you just comment here on my above two questions please and it's resolved. And we can move on. No drama.Charlotte135 (talk) 08:37, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rational suicide

Should the section on rational suicide also include reference to "Hobson's Choice" situations. Consider for example The Falling Man and up to 200 others who jumped from the World Trade Centre on 9-11 rather than be burnt or asphyxiated. How would this play with those religions that are fundamentally opposed to suicide? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:56, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

The existing reference to the Holocaust seems a better fit for the Hobson's choice as the victims mentioned had a chance to think about it. The reference to martyrdom is the only religious theme in the section, so if you've got a good source for a religious viewpoint or debate on the morality of the camp inmate's choices or similar that could be interesting. I doubt that WTC jumpers are widely considered as suicides. Seren_Dept 05:25, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't. These are genuine questions. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

There's a section at the bottom of Jewish_views_on_suicide that seems related but its sourcing (other than primary) isn't obvious. Holocaust research seems like a good place to find the perspectives you're looking for. There must be lots of analysis of resistance, cooperation, and collaboration, and whether there was any choice at all, and often from a religious perspective. I hope that's helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seren Dept (talk • contribs) 02:00, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2016

Addition of Suicide Prevention Hotline numbers (by location) to the top of the page. It's 1-800-273-8255 in the USA. JGageWright (talk) 02:06, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

What's changed since Talk:Suicide/Archive_6#RfC:_Crisis_hotline_link or any of the other times this was proposed? —C.Fred (talk) 02:11, 10 December 2016 (UTC)