Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Editor Retention

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Editor driven into retirement

Dear editors: I spent four hours yesterday preparing an incident report and posted it at WP:ANI, but in less than a day it is gone. I guess I'm lumped in with the trolls now. Since it was related to editor retention, I am posting a link to it here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive946#Train wreck. The link to the ANI discussion I mention doesn't work now that the thread has been archived, but it's just above in the same archive.—Anne Delong (talk) 11:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

@Anne Delong: Thanks. I read through your entire essay--I didn't think it too heavy on text. Good writing in fact. The result doesn't surprise me--I have seen it before. Often it is the case of "guilty until proven innocent". Once someone brings you to AN/I, you are in trouble, even if the editor who brought the action is equally or more responsible. The accuser often gets the upper hand, especially if they have been here a while and have a good reputation, with supporting editors and admins, and if they know how to tell a story and provide good diffs. The novice editor who is the accused, who doesn't know the justice system or have friendly admins is at a huge disadvantage, especially if the accused got frustrated and lashed out at the accuser.

Our policy of "there are no rules" and "be bold" can be incredibly misleading to new editors who might think they can change anything, edit war, say anything or make any argument (without RS to back it up), swear, etc. and there won't be consequences. The general public mistakenly thinks wikipedia is unreliable because "anyone" can change anything, and with this thinking that anyone can enter and change anything however they want, they are in for a rude awakening when they encounter experienced editors who sharply disagree with their changes.

To me the need to reform the long-standing problem of biting new users seemed obvious, until I became more aware of how new IP editors and sock puppets can show up and cause trouble and break various rules unapologetically. I realize these kinds of editors need to be blocked promptly.

So my thought is that if someone really feels they are falsely accused, there should be a way for them to ask for a proper trial with a jury of uninterested peers (randomly selected from a jury pool). Like in the American justice system, if there is good cause to show the accused might be a danger, the editor's rights would be suspended or severely curtailed until the trial is over. I don't think vandals would ask for such a trial. But I think someone like you described above would. This would be much, much better than an indef. block. Thoughts?

--David Tornheim (talk) 07:06, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@Anne Delong: I have read through your essay and it's a familiar story that I have documented at User:Ritchie333/SPI considered harmful. In a nutshell, using two accounts or editing logged out every now and then is a non issue on its own and those that think is are involved in Cargo Cult Administration. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:22, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

David Tornheim and Ritchie333, thanks for taking time to read my report. I don't think a "trial" would have helped in this case; the editor seemed to just panic and lash out in frustration. However, most editors aren't that touchy, and the idea may have merit in general. I think you are right that vandals wouldn't ask for a trial, but there are always trolls, who enjoy being the centre of a good show. The block was reduced after a while and I believe it's no longer in force.—Anne Delong (talk) 12:52, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I am no expert on this, and it probably sounds like the pot calling the kettle black,(example) but if somebody lashes out with a valid point, take the valid point and reply politely. People never expect a calm and civilised answer to a rant, it throws them off guard a bit. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:35, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Elections for New Page Patrol/Review coordinators

The elections are now open to voters. Voting has now begun for two NPP/NPR coordinators and will remain open until 23:59 UTC Monday 06 March. All registered, confirmed editors are welcome to vote. Please vote HERE. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:34, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject X Newsletter • Issue 10

Issue 10 of the WikiProject X newsletter is here!

This month, we discuss the new CollaborationKit extension. Here's an image as a teaser:

23:59, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

New Editors who cite to BOLD + IGNORE all the rules -> entrapment?

I will speak of a problem that practically entices and entraps new users into getting bitten. We advertise that Wikipedia is the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" and I think most of the general public thinks that means anyone can put anything they want into the encyclopedia. A new editor who comes here with this impression is given all the tools and told they can change pretty much any page, including the rules themselves. Rules like WP:BOLD and WP:IGNORE add to this belief. It's like giving a new recruit an F-15 telling them they can be bold and push any button they want, fly wherever they want and do whatever they want as long as they believe it is for the greater good. When they are bold and hit the drop bomb button, suddenly they are at WP:AN/I facing a block.

Any experienced editor knows you can't ignore the numerous arcane and obtuse rules that can take years to fully master. We know that one must be cautious with tone, adhere to WP:AGF, focus on content rather than editor, discuss disputes on talk page, not edit-war, work towards consensus, etc. But the new editor can easily think a discussion here is like the incivility of U.S. presidential debates (or talk radio) where candidates routinely call each other nasty names, make highly charged and questionable accusations and use similar bullying tactic, and this is all okay.

Too often experienced editors speak to new editors in a condescending, accusatory or threatening tone that exacerbates the problem. The new user may falsely believe their position has equal merit in the "encyclopedia where anyone can edit", and becomes increasingly frustrated and hot-headed, feeling pushed to the point of crossing the line that creates an actionable diff that can never be erased. (e.g. the example given above by Anne Delong) A new user likely will not know they crossed the line, mistakenly believing their accuser was equally guilty. When only the new user alone gets punished, it will seem unjust and they may leave for good.

We lose experienced editors for similar reasons as in the preceding paragraph.

I believe we need to do more to guide and warn new editors of the dangers of ignoring the rules, being too bold and thinking they can say whatever they want in an argument. I am working on an essay to refer to new editors. I might add some examples of conversations where I tried to warn new editors here: TBA.

I haven't decided whether to add a recent example(s) similar to the above Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Editor_Retention#Editor_driven_into_retirement. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:12, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

When I worte the above, I was thinking about the discussion at WP:RS/N here. As anticipated, the new editor in question got taken to AN/I here. Pinging those involved in the WP:RS/N discussion for notice: Calton, Endercase, Only in death, MjolnirPants. I already gave notice at AN/I here. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:13, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I notice you didn't ping all the other users who were involved in all the other RSN discussions said user was disrupting. I for instance first came across the account in another thread immediately below that one, where he attempted to shut down a discussion of whether the right-wing hate group FRC should be cited as a reliable source for a factual claim about teenage pregnancy.

Wikipedia has seen a massive upswing in NOTHERE, far-right individuals creating accounts (or logging into half-decade-old dormant accounts, as happened here) for the specific purpose of POV-pushing and promoting fringe theories. This started during the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign, and has continued even after the inauguration. On ANI in October, I saw no less than four separate threads on four separate fascist SPAs (one literally had Nazi propaganda on his user page) that resulted in indefinite blocks. Citing right-wing fake-news sites, arguing for the appropriateness of citing right-wing fake-news sites, and especially doing almost nothing but arguing this and actively refusing to do anything but this, are usually pretty good indicators of not being HERE. I advised[1] the user to do something else for a while (Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to stay away from articles on social media and right-wing politics for a while.) without speculating on his citizenship or voting record, and was met[2] with Ahhhhhahhahahaaaa [...] I have definitely upset you. [...] Would you please leave me alone until you calm down? [...] Also, I didn't vote for Trump.

The account you are referring to only posted in the discussion you are referring to in response to RSN telling him he wasn't allowed post Breitbart-sourced conspiriology on Wikipedia. He posted essentially the same non-comment in about half a dozen other threads on RSN, and did something similar on NPOVN, and despite multiple editors attempting to explain the policies to him, he either doesn't appear to understand or is deliberately pretending not to understand. If this were an editor retention issue, you wouldn't be the only long-term contributor who thinks so.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I only pinged editors of the WP:RS/N section I encountered the editor -and- the AN/I, where I gave notice. If you want to ping editors in other RS/N sections where you contend that editor was disruptive, be my guest.

I prefer not to argue or re-argue the merits of your AN/I here. I did so at the AN/I instead.

As for the other cases of "no less than four separate threads on four separate fascist SPAs (one literally had Nazi propaganda on his user page) that resulted in indefinite blocks", I have no familiarity with any of those cases and am not suggesting any of those editors were bitten or treated unfairly. I am only using the treatment of this one new editor as an example. --David Tornheim (talk) 12:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

If you want to ping editors in other RS/N sections where you contend that editor was disruptive, be my guest. My point was that you seem to have roundly ignored, both here and on ANI, the vast majority of the user's edit history. You happened to agree with them on the content of that one RSN thread, which seems to be all that matters to you. I have no familiarity with any of those cases and am not suggesting any of those editors were bitten or treated unfairly. Yes, but my point is that if you had happened to agree with their edits to some other page that had nothing whatsoever to do with that stuff, you would then, apparently, have shown up on those ANI discussions and insisted that they had done nothing wrong, ignoring the problems everyone else had with them, and claiming that those other users were BITing them. That is what you are doing here. I am only using the treatment of this one new editor as an example. If this example is typical ... yeah, I don't think there's a problem. Wikipedia's editor retention problems will not be helped by telling users who cite rightist fake news sites and, over the course of weeks, continue to insist that they are doing nothing wrong. White, heterosexual American men are overrepresented on English Wikipedia, and telling adherents of fascism and the "alt right" that its cool to post their propaganda here is going to make that problem worse, not better. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Content Adjudication? afterthought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Editor_Retention/Archive_30#Content_Adjudication.3F

Perhaps a way to test the idea of the viability of content adjudication is to try it on some very controversial articles that have been stuck for a long time going around and around the same issues, being vandalized a lot etc? That might be appropriate for such articles and not for others that work more smoothly. Something like MedCom, but going beyond just mediation. That would be a different role, which some Wikipedians would probably enjoy. Jed Stuart (talk) 03:11, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

As I alluded to in the previous thread, the key issue is how to get agreement on who will resolve the dispute. Oftentimes agreement can't even be reached on delegating the creation of an RFC to an uninvolved party, much less on delegating the resolution of a content issue. One problem is that the involved parties don't have any incentive to agree to cede the decision to one person or a small group of persons. Although personally I would be pleased to see someone float the idea, I highly suspect there will continue to be high resistance to relinquishing editorial control. isaacl (talk) 04:18, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Seems that if there were to be a higher level decision on content it would have to be people with higher level skills such as traditional world journalists and editors. Would such people volunteer to do that? Government employees might though. It is tricky. Jed Stuart (talk) 23:43, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

There are plenty of editors who would be happy to take on the role of making content decisions. But there's no agreement on how to select who would do this. You may want traditional journalists; some may want traditional historians; others may want social activists. isaacl (talk) 05:32, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

We need a Siverback or two to keep everyone in line. Buster Seven Talk 14:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

@Isaacl: A German Court has ruled that Wikipedia is liable for contents. WMF had to take responsibility in that case, so I guess the answer to your question is that WMF would have to be the body to decide who are to be content adjudicators. Wouldn't they have to do that occasionally at present anyway? Jed Stuart (talk) 03:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation relies on protection by section 230 of the Communications Decency Act and similar legislation such as Article 14 of European Union directive 2000/31/EC and so is unlikely to take a role in deciding content. isaacl (talk) 06:05, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Yet in the UK Outcomes_in_favor_of_the_plaintiffsa court order was obtained. Having different legal situations all over could cause problems, but I agree that is probably not going to be enough nuisance for WMF to re-think its policies. But, as Wikipedia grows in importance governments are going to increase their covert interference. This was partly exposed in investigation-into-offensive-wikipedia-edits-made-by-public-servants-staffers Government, and other, shills seem to be obviously present too. Perhaps that will all get horrible enough for WMF to think about other options? It would be a shame to lose the great innovation of open editing due to being sloppy about content control.Jed Stuart (talk) 02:29, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Let me try here...

Seconds Anyone?

Three candidates for Editor of the Week are awaiting vetting and seconding. Please see the Nomination page and respond at the talk of that page. Also, consider nominating that special editor that you have discovered. It only takes a moment and is very rewarding .... for you and for them. According to the long established rules of EotW they can only receive an award if they are seconded. These recent candidates may not be well known or visible because they have their noses to the grindstone of article editing. They are busy working, not complaining. The Award is about giving back to them for their time. You may not know or have experienced them... but they deserve at least a moments notice, more so than the many mis-fits we waste our time with. Buster Seven Talk 23:58, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

 Erledigt Thank you Yash!. Buster Seven Talk 23:57, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Editor of the Week : nominations needed!

The Editor of the Week initiative has been recognizing editors since 2013 for their hard work and dedication. Editing Wikipedia can be disheartening and tedious at times; the weekly Editor of the Week award lets its recipients know that their positive behaviour and collaborative spirit is appreciated. The response from the honorees has been enthusiastic and thankful.

The list of nominees is running short, and so new nominations are needed for consideration. Have you come across someone in your editing circle who deserves a pat on the back for improving article prose regularly, making it easier to understand? Or perhaps someone has stepped in to mediate a contentious dispute, and did an excellent job. Do you know someone who hasn't received many accolades and is deserving of greater renown? Is there an editor who does lots of little tasks well, such as cleaning up citations?

Please help us thank editors who display sustained patterns of excellence, working tirelessly in the background out of the spotlight, by submitting your nomination for Editor of the Week today!

Thank you on behalf of the Editor of the Week clerks. Buster Seven Talk 00:18, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Editor is planning to retire

I don't know if this is the right page to bring this up, but I just saw that User:Pavanjandhyala has decided to retire after completing a few tasks. This editor has written articles that I have copy-edited at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests. See, in the Date requested column, 2017-01-01 at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests/Archives/2017 and 2015-12-28, 2016-01-15, 2016-01-30, 2016-02-23, 2016-02-07, 2016-02-29, 2016-04-07, 2016-04-21, 2016-05-02, 2016-06-11, 2016-06-21, 2016-07-26, 2016-08-06, 2016-09-25, 2016-10-28, and 2016-12-31 for all the articles written by this editor that were copy-edited by GOCE copy-editors in 2016; see Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests/Archives/2016. See this edit and edit summary and what was removed in this edit. I don't know what happened during this past year. Perhaps it is worth looking into in order to retain this editor.  – Corinne (talk) 17:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I have left words of encouragement. Others should too. Buster Seven Talk 23:59, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Comment:...For The Record... The editor has stated that leaving WP has more to do with personal private reasons than with any mis-understanding. Buster Seven Talk 00:25, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Long term planning

If we're to become a better encyclopedia long term and improve in quality this project will need to become something central to Wikipedia and have people constantly working on protecting content contributors. We're currently not doing enough. Every day newbies are essentially shown the door because of inadequate patrolling and a careless attitude. I've been one of Wikipedia's most prolific editors who has produced a great deal of good content and even I currently feel like I would be foolish to want to contribute content to wikipedia. It seems at times the more effort one makes, the more they get it thrown back in their face. The general attitude and resentment of good editors on here and Wikipediocracy is awful. We've already lost over half a dozen great editors in the last year, and it's getting worse. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:36, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Can you be more specific to the concerns you have? I have long thought there need to be a few major changes in how discipline is meted out and "consensus" decisions are made at noticeboards:

(1) Decisions should be from independent decision-makers who are not involved. (For example, if all the editors arguing at the talk page move to the noticeboard, the noticeboard has no real benefit. It's just the same editors with the same biases. Many noticeboards are dominated by the same group of powerful editors with a particular bias.)

(2) The decision-maker(s) should be *randomly* selected rather than self-selected. (This solves the problem of (1))

(3) Admin duties would need to be covered less on the do whatever you want and more based on random assignment to problems based on who is on-line and available -- the way courts assign judges to cases.

For disciplinary actions such as WP:AN/I and WP:AE, for cases other than sock puppets, vandalism and widespread disruption:

(4) Provide a right to a jury trial of randomly selected jurors, especially for anyone who has been here a while and has a registered account (to avoid abuse by IP sock puppets). To obtain jurors, anyone who wants the right to a jury must serve regularly on juries. I have many ideas of how to create jury pools and assign them to cases. This could be for either Plaintiff(s) or Defendant(s).

(5) If a judgment is to be made by a single admin, or a set of admins, give the editor the right to pre-emptively dismiss one (possibly) more assigned judge(s) without cause, and possibly also with cause. This would really help with bullying and bias.

(6) Editors providing evidence should be identified differently and comment in a separate section from editors who are making decisions and judging the evidence presented. Those providing evidence should be self-selected, and invited to speak. Right now it is all clumped together at AN/I in one big mess and inviting interested parties to speak can be treated as canvassing. Big cases become TL;DR and incomprehensible.

Just a handful of ways of bringing some of the elements that work in the judicial system to avoid the kinds of problems we have here that make harassment, bullying and incivility so rampant.

Also, I think real experts are not treated well. That's a different problem... --David Tornheim (talk) 17:35, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Dr. Blofield. Your decade-long dedication to WP proceeds you. I hope this thread will be the catalysis for some dynamic ideas to bring about long term planning. Anyone who doesn't know the good doctor should examine User:Dr. Blofeld/Encyclopedia problems for an insight into his desire to improve our workplace. Please take note of the bullet..."Treatment of newbies". Also, I hope you can take your own good advice and turn the frustration into laughter and be reassured that what they said really doesn't matter and allows you to move on.... Buster Seven Talk 17:42, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not a particularly great writer (I have about 85 GAs, no FAs, and do try and work on articles when I remember but keep getting distracted - don't say "oh but you are great really Ritchie", if I was that good I'd be doing it professionally!) but I think there is a general lack of empathy on the project. This manifests itself in a number of ways : for instance, just now I've yelled at a bunch of people edit-warring over something I believe a typical layman reader would not care about, and I occasionally get complaints when I decline speedy deletions. In the former, there's a lack of empathy towards somebody who's not interested in editing and just wants to fact check, in the latter it's a lack of empathy about what it's actually like to be a brand new editor these days. Put yourself in the other person's shoes. (This is easy to do if you have a job, life or friends outside Wikipedia and socialise with people who would never dream of editing it and are a bit suspicious about it in general. Still....)

I'm also amazed at how some admins seem to be incapable of actually talking about a topic. Sure, there are things like Indian religious artifacts that I would have difficulty distinguishing from a hole in the ground, but I do try and make an effort to talk about the content and subject matter; chances are the new editor is more of an expert than you, and you really should recognise that. But then you get admins who seem to go "eeny, meeny, miny, mo, ippy, dippy, 3RR, block" and when you get them to try and talk about the content, they just come out with some waffle like "use the talk page" or "read the policy". Yes, we should discuss things at the talk page and refer back to policy when making decisions, but unless you say how they apply to this specific situation to a newcomer or inexperienced editor, you might as well be a vogon brandishing a clipboard. The most important skill an admin can have is being able to communicate effectively and explain themselves; any old idiot can hit the "delete - A7" button, but the real skill is dealing with the complaint that lands on your talk page a few hours later, and only a true grand master can get the other party going away satisfied that deletion was the right thing.

Sorry, this is a bit of a brain dump and a rant - I will try and think of concrete solutions later. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:49, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: If I can't reply on your talk page, please don't ping me there as I'm not sure what you're expecting. Now, as for "I've just now I've yelled at a bunch of people edit-warring" - that sounds pretty condescending when editors are reverting a person changing IPs to get around blocks. I'm pretty sure the great editors Dr. Blofeld refers to would not appreciate that behavior happening on "their" articles so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up as an example here. If you think an edit made by a block evader is worthwhile then you make that edit as a content contributor and you take responsibility for it. That should stop the edit warring unless other editors don't see it as an improvement. And for gosh sakes, don't block an FA/GA-writing editor with no warning for edit warring with a sock. That's how we lose editors. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:05, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@David Tornheim: The concern I have about decision makers being assigned at random is that ultimately the decision maker needs to have some sort of clue as to what's going on, so they don't get the wool pulled over their eyes by whoever can shout the loudest. Consider a program manager and software developer having an argument about some feature. It gets so heated, they both storm into their manager's office, demanding a decision. Now, out of the three people in the room, who knows the least about the issue? The manager of course! In a way, admins need to do the same - help people to help themselves and work out issues on their own and not issue decrees like executive fiat. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@NeilN: I don't know why you can't edit my talk page, it's not protected and lots of people post there :-/ Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:40, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: At the risk of opening an old can of worms, you requested that I never post there again last August. I've respected that request. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:46, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Did I? Ah, well I can't remember what I had for tea yesterday, let alone last August. I might have just been having a bit of a grumpy day, maybe the local shop had run out of cream buns or something, or the library didn't have a good source for verifying the engineering plans for Liverpool Street station. Or Trump had been tweeting. Or something like that. I'd ignore it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:51, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: Excellent commentary. Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Many good points. I went to a presentation on police brutality yesterday and one of the main themes was that the "old school" method of "law and order" does not really work, something discovered by the British in 1829: Metropolitan Police Act 1829. The U.S. has taken about 140 years to catch on and still hasn't really has shifted. One of the problems asserted was that the government policies promote community relationships, but the police culture, especially of the supervisors is they don't buy in, thinking it is too "touchy feely", so unless the supervisors and veterans buy-in, the community relationship problem continues, and you have riots over police brutality. The presenter has a PhD in criminology, so the talk was WP:RS, but sorry that what I heard it is not WP:VER. If I find something about it, I'll try to post it. --David Tornheim (talk) 03:11, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

My general feeling is that there is a worrying number of editors on here (and retired/banned) who seem to loathe certain productive people who are dedicated to this project, without really knowing them. When there is an ANI thread or some sort of scandal, a group of editors seem to relish the drama and a chance to take down editors. Whether it's out of jealousy or their own personal confrontations I don't know, but I've been here 11 years now, I've always genuinely tried to better it as a resource and reduce systematic bias, I've put in hundreds of hours of my own time to improve core articles too, ones like Frank Sinatra and Cary Grant which otherwise would likely still be poorly written. I've also put in a lot of time to run contests which have had a great impact on the site. You know, I didn't have to bother, I'm a volunteer. We all are. Developing Kubrick, Sinatra and Grant for instance, I've had very little positive input, it's been almost entirely negative over time, a large amount of trolling and hardship. If even somebody as obviously constructive as myself has had to deal with all this, what hope is there for newbies or people wanting to develop important articles on here? What hope is there for retaining the average contributor when they face this sort of hostility and protecting them? Several articles recently I've come across which I might have expanded I haven't felt bothered to do it, and the main reason is that it seems a lot more likely that somebody will take a pot shot at the work than thank you for it. To not only put in the time to research and improve it and then have the energy to deal with the complaints and nitpicking, just isn't worth the hassle.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:25, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There are two classes of editors Dr. Blofeld identifies in his initial posts - newbies and good content editors. One of the major reasons for them both leaving is probably what Ritchie333 mentions above - edit warring. It's easy to make a change to an article and that's what attracts new editors. It's a lot harder the defend that change on a talk page, using Wikipedia's ever-increasing amount of policies, guidelines, consensus decisions, and MOS guides. That takes politeness, patience and intellectual effort. Too much effort for many new editors who just want to contribute "what they know" and so they leave. For veteran editors, you have the somewhat opposite situation. They work hard on creating content meeting Wikipedia's highest standards but then sometimes they have to defend the content against less experienced or clueless editors or editors with a particular bee in their bonnet (no, I don't give a damn that that en-dash should really be a hyphen). It might be worthwhile to approach editors who have recently left offwiki and ask them what could have been done to halt them from souring on the place. I say offwiki because there they won't get unwanted responses and perhaps they would be more open to suggesting out-of-the-box policy/guideline changes. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:31, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the main issue is retaining newbies and nurturing them to become regular editors of course. We're losing at least 90% of potential editors because of the way they are approached initially I'm sure with warring, deletionism and general hostility. We also need editors developing good researching/writing skills to develop important articles on here to GA status and beyond. While the number of core GAs has improved in recent years, a high percentage of articles are still not up to scratch. We're at risk of losing valuable editors who contribute to them too, as I've found the more important the article, the more likely you'll encounter trolls and difficulties.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:37, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

A lot of time I find the edit wars are about something that probably isn't worth fighting over, or maybe I'm just more laissez-faire about stuff. I know people have almost declared nuclear war over the dreaded "I" word, and while I'll stick my 2c into the debate, if somebody really cannot bear seeing an article without an infobox, well if that's the price we have to pay to keep the peace and happy editors, it's one I'll consider paying. I will say though, Blofeld, that what you had to endure at Cary Grant was just staggering; I've seen some content disputes but that was just horrible. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:54, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, the war was over everything. Take a look at the fight over a photo. We hope (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Tim, Brian and SchroCat eventually got tired of the same "I" argument on every article they produced. For a while they were among the most focused, most precious editors we had on here, working hard to get important articles up to FA status. Tim and Brian in particular rarely said a bad word about anyone and were as professional and decent as you can be on here in general conduct., and you saw what Mr. Singora and co had to say about them. I think we need to do something to build up the esteem of editors and counteract the negativity that they face. I hope more contests will help to maintain focus and positivity long term. We need something where the harder an editor works, the more they get back in return because at present it seems like the harder an editor works the more BS they get back in return. Now a lot of editors don't expect "rewards" or to be paid, but if they're productive they deserve to be left in peace and not have to deal with the odious sorts of people who turn up or comment on 'ocracy. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:19, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld. Great comment. Completely agree. One of the worst things we could do would be to drive a female editor off the project and then write "Never come back you stinking nasty little bitch". Even worse would be to greet a Cambridge-educated academic (and published author) with comments such as you are "some snotty lecturer in a Hooray Henry university" and "You're quite a repellant creature aren't you?". Singora (talk) 08:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Long term planning needs to happen, but it needs to be focused on the consumers of our information, not the creators. And we need to recognize that much of what needs to be done we cannot do. Things that would address many of the issues discussed above and the (to me) particularly distressing issue of paid editing will need to come from the foundation, in particular:

1. Shitcan the stupid motto. Very simply, Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone may edit, not the encyclopedia anyone can edit. We all know not everyone is capable of working in a collaborative project, and the fact that implied in the motto is that you can add what you want, creates an expectation in new editors that simply cannot be met.
2. End anon editing. Require registration. On many websites, the "register now" button cannot be pressed until the "read the terms of use" button has been pressed. Do that. Registered editing only will end half the socking problems. It will decrease stupid vandalism.

I have more to say about consumer oriented management of the project, but my volunteer time is about up for now. I'll add more later. Thanks for listening. John from Idegon (talk) 23:02, 23 March 2017 (UTC)