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Welcome to the Wikiproject Golf talk page. This is the place for questions, answers, and telling the rest of the group some of your accomplishments. New members should put their name down in the appropriate spot on the main page. Comment away!

US Majors in "European Tour playoff records"

The article http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=189071.html includes all Open Championship playoffs back to 1972 but it only includes playoffs in the US majors since 2000. It includes all playoffs since 2000 even, for instance, 2003 Masters Tournament for Mike Weir and Len Mattiace, although neither of these would have a "European Tour playoff record" section. I assume the reason for starting in 2000 is that given in "1998 European Tour" which says "the Masters Tournament, U.S. Open and PGA Championship being included on the schedule for the first time". (there were no playoffs 1997-1999)

The list doesn't include the following playoffs: Masters: 1979, 1982, 1987, 1989, 1990, US Open: 1975, 1984, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1994, PGA Championship: 1977, 1978, 1979, 1987, 1993, 1995, 1996. Most of those involved are Americans and, like Weir and Mattiace, won't have a "European Tour playoff record" section anyway. However Seve Ballesteros, Nick Faldo and Colin Montgomerie were involved in one or more of these playoffs as were some Australians and Ernie Els.

Seve's Masters wins in 1980 and 1983 are included in his European Tour win total of 50 (as per http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=176339.html) but his 1987 playoff is not included in his European Tour playoff record (as per http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=189071.html). Seve was 6th in the European Tour Order of Merit in 1987. Faldo doesn't currently have a European Tour playoff record section. Monty's playoffs in 1994 and 1995 majors are also not included in his European Tour playoff record section. He won the European Tour Order of Merit in both of these years.

Greg Norman lost US major playoffs in 1984, 1987 and 1993 and these are also not included in his European Tour playoff record section. Ernie Els won US majors in 1994 and 1997; 1994 in a playoff. His 1994 US Open playoff win IS included in his European Tour playoff record section, although it is not in http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=189071.html . David Graham (golfer) won the 1979 PGA Championship after a playoff. He doesn't currently have a European Tour playoff record section.

Anyway, after this long introduction, my point is to ask whether we should include these 1975-1996 playoffs in a player's European Tour playoff record section. Superficially it seems bizarre that in Seve's article we currently include his 1980 and 1983 Masters wins in his European Tour wins but exclude his 1987 Masters playoff defeat. My personal preference is to include them, as we currently do for Ernie Els, even though this puts out of line with the list of playoffs on the european tour website. Nigej (talk) 08:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I say go ahead and do it. There was the case of the PGA Tour omitting Jack Nicklaus playoff win at the 1970 British Open but at Wikipedia included it. I know there are a few other cases of WP having something right that one of the golf tours doesn't or didn't but subsequently corrected....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:34, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

OK What you say is certainly true. Sometimes you've just got to assume that the "official" site has made a mistake. Nigej (talk) 17:44, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Women in Red online editathon on sports

		Welcome to Women in Red's May 2017 worldwide online editathon. Participation is welcome in any language.
		"Sports"

(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list) --Ipigott (talk) 12:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

RFC on sports notability

An RFC has recently been started regarding a potential change to the notability guidelines for sportspeople. Please join in the conversation. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion about WP:NGOLF at WT:NSPORTS

There is an ongoing discussion about changing WP:NGOLF at WT:NSPORTS.Burning Pillar (talk) 22:33, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

When tournament results section should or shouldn't be split

We've had a little bit of a dispute on the WGC-Bridgestone Invitational page.

It seems to me we split for two reasons:

• Firstly, for pragmatic reasons, often related to lack of information. Often we have more information for recent events and splitting makes sense, since the tables can have different columns.
• Secondly, when there is a significant change in status. For instance: Women's British Open is split for this reason. WGC-HSBC Champions is an interesting example. Splitting when it became a WGC event certainly makes sense but there is also a split when it became a PGA Tour event. Our logic seems to be that if it becomes sanctioned by a more senior tour, thereby increasing its status, then that might be sufficient reason to split. Simply being sanctioned (or not) by more junior tours would not normally lead to a split.

It seems to me that, sometimes, we split unnecessarily. eg: Open de France looks better to me as a single unbroken table.

In the WGC-Bridgestone Invitational it seems to me that there no real change in status in 2016. The was a small spat between the two tours (a clash with the 100th Open de France) but its status was not significantly impacted for that one year. See: [Official World Golf Ranking#Event ranking]] when it still sits in 12th place, just below WGC-HSBC Champions. Nigej (talk) 09:43, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

New articles

Wikipedia:WikiProject Women's sport/Golf task force has picked up the following articles, which I have added to WP:GOLF: Lady Hilda Madeline Britten-Jones, Sky Sudberry, Ann Probert, Lana Lawless, Katy Jarochowicz, Corinne Clark, Lina Boqvist, Shasta Averyhardt. Some look of dubious notability. Nigej (talk) 21:42, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Deletion discussion

I have nominated 2016 Memorial Tournament for deletion. Here is the discussion. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 23:51, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Article "List of professional golfers who have hit an albatross"

I'd be interested in your views. See Talk:List of professional golfers who have hit an albatross. Nigej (talk) 17:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

New European Tour website

The European tour website has been relaunched with a fancy new style. Seems to have made a mess of most of our links. eg Rory McIlroy who was at https://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=34024 is now at https://www.europeantour.com/en/players/rory-mcilroy-34024 so looks like the number is the same but it's got an extra bit in the name "rory-mcilroy-" and different directory structure (https://www.europeantour.com/players/rory-mcilroy-34024 seems to work too but not https://www.europeantour.com/en/players/34024). We have 853 transclusions to Template:EuroTour player which is less than I was expecting when I saw the "full list" at https://www.europeantour.com/en/europeantour/players/ mentions 17,377. I was hoping that some wizz-kid could take the name of the article and insert it into the address (changing 34024 to rory-mcilroy-34024) but this won't work in all cases, https://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=141 has become https://www.europeantour.com/en/players/christyoconnorjnr141 and https://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid=729 has become https://www.europeantour.com/en/players/jos-mara-olazbal-729. The Template:EuroSrTour player needs to be abandoned, not heavily used anyway - 46 transclusions. Also issues with tournament pages I suspect. Not gone down that route yet. Nigej (talk) 09:21, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Just looking at Template:EuroTour player. This currently has "[http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid={{{1|{{{id}}}}}} {{{2|{{{name|{{PAGENAMEBASE}}}}}}}}] at the [[PGA European Tour|European Tour]] official site" The "{{{2|{{{name|{{PAGENAMEBASE}}}}}}}}] at the [[PGA European Tour|European Tour]] official site" bit simply produces the text eg "Rory McIlroy at the European Tour official site" The important bit here is the "http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/players/playerid={{{1|{{{id}}}}}}" This uses the 1st parameter (or id= parameter) to generate the address. Struggling to find a simple solution. Nigej (talk) 10:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

I have a file that I created awhile back containing the articles of those involved in European Tour playoffs (about 410) which is almost half of the 850. Of these 75 use a 2nd parameter, mostly, I suspect, those with "(golfer)" in their title, even though the use of PAGENAMEBASE makes this unnecessary. The others 330-odd have no 2nd parameter. None of the 410 use id= or name= . Also checked the list of 850-odd articles. The only one with an unusual name is "Professional golf career of Tiger Woods" where the second parameter is useful. Nigej (talk) 11:48, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Progress report

I have changed Template:EuroTour player. Firstly, to simplify it, I have removed the id= and name= options that are never (i think) used. Parameters are now simply by position. As before parameter 1 is the number. Parameter 2 is now an optional prefix used in the address. If not given it uses the page name (with (golfer) stripped off if present). Parameter 2 is converted to lower case and spaces replaced with dashes. Parameter 3 is the old parameter 2. This new version works in most cases but there are plenty that don't. These need to have parameter 2 added by hand. Planning to do some tomorrow.

• Rory McIlroy correctly goes to https://www.europeantour.com/en/players/rory-mcilroy-34024
• Brian Barnes (golfer) correctly goes to https://www.europeantour.com/en/players/brian-barnes-10
• David J Russell goes to https://www.europeantour.com/en/players/david-j-russell-174
• Sergio García doesn't work because of the í, so still work to do.

Nigej (talk) 20:13, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Korean Tour external link template

I'm thinking of creating a on the lines of the others at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Golf/Templates#External_link_templates. This would link through to http://kgt.co.kr/players/profile.aspx?man_code=nnnnnnnn , eg K. J. Choi would be http://kgt.co.kr/players/profile.aspx?man_code=00000190 . The only issue is that pages are in Korean but the "translate to English" in my Chrome browser is helpful, although occasionally obscure (eg height = 신장 is translated as kidney. The page contains a lot of good stuff. eg the second option (결과 = results) gives season by season results.

Wendy's 3-Tour Challenge

The IP user has asked me about this event. It seems to me that it was a team event and hence should be in that section rather than the wins section. Each team was representing a tour. Nigej (talk) 15:19, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Golf outing

It just struck me as very peculiar that there is no article on Golf outings. I'm not qualified to write it; can this be put under an AfC section of this WikiProject or somewhere similar? Thanks, ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 05:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Tyco Golf Skills Challenge

Should wins at the Tyco Golf Skills Challenge be included in the "Other wins" sections of the events winners? See dispute at Peter Jacobsen, Peter Hanson, Justin Rose. This was an unofficial event run by the PGA Tour from 1992 to 2012. Tewapack (talk) 16:34, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I'd lean towards not counting it. If Jamie Sadlowski were to win a stroke play tournament, would his long drive wins be counted alongside that? To me, the skills challenge falls into the same category as long drive: not exactly a golf tournament. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 17:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Some events aren't considered wins. The Masters Par 3 tournament, or finishing first at Q school....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:14, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Absolute nonsense to count this I've said that all along 31.200.130.228 (talk) 12:03, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Splitting results table when official tour begins

There's been a dispute recently about whether to split the results table for the Open de France so that it is in 2 parts, post-1972 and pre-1972, 1972 been the year the European Tour was formed. A look at the 1972 European Tour events shows that, despite what one editor claims, we generally do not split these events pre and post 1972. Only a handful of the 23 events have the table split.

My proposal is that we should not split tables in such situations, unless there are other reasons for splitting (eg lack of data for earlier events). My reasoning is that, while 1972 was an important year for the European Tour, it was not a significant year for, say, the French Open. The 1971 winner is just as noteworthy as the 1972 winner. We generally mention the tour aspect in the text and infobox anyway and adding it again in the results table is to overemphasise it.

Comments would be appreciated. Nigej (talk) 10:41, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

In cases where it's split, chances are I was the one who split it. A while back, I took on the task of standardizing the year–winner–country–(venue)–score–to par–margin of victory–runner(s)-up format across European Tour events. My source was generally the European Tour website, which of course doesn't have information for pre-tour events. On the particular article in question, looking at the last revision before I reformatted it, I see that at the time most pre-1972 editions had no information regarding score relative to par or margin of victory. At the time, I decided it was best to leave that part the way it was, rather than add two blank columns, and split the table in two. Nigej has done a great job adding in margins of victory. I see, though, that the "score" and "to par" columns have been re-combined in order to join the two tables.

So I'd say I'm somewhat neutral in this case. The start of the tour is IMO not enough reason to split the table, but I wouldn't mind noting it in a ! colspan=7 (or 8) heading. Nigej mentions lack of data for earlier events as a potential reason to split; that could theoretically apply here (scores to par). I suggest that we leave the table as one and add a heading to note the start of the European Tour; I'd also prefer to split the score column again. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 14:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Personally I think there should be a split in the table to show tournament's history before it was not sanctioned by the European Tour or whatever Tour. Does it really look bad if the table is spilt up not for me it shows the history of the event. Also I am conducting research I am going to try and add Runners-up finishes for all players and add to their wiki pages like in Snooker and Tennis. I want to make sure events are not double counted. That can be easily done without a split table prior to a Tour Sanction. 178.167.176.131 (talk) 20:57, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I see no reason to split a table just to show when the European Tour started - it inevitably leads to tables of different widths which ruins the esthetics of the page. Regarding runner-up finishes for golfers - this isn't tennis or snooker were tournaments are single elimination (knockout) events and being runner-up means that you lost in the final. Few golf tournaments are single elimination events - a runner-up could have lost in a playoff or finished 10 strokes behind or have been tied with five others for second place - far different from tennis or snooker. Runner-up finishes in golf are rarely notable except in special cases (Jack Nicklaus in the majors, Phil Mickelson in the U.S. Open, etc). Tewapack (talk) 22:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

You are talking absolute nonsense Runner-up finishes are vital in every individual sport. Why does golf count runners-up finishes at all then if they are not important.They would not bother at all. Who gives a shit if you lose by 10 shots or in a playoff. You could lose by 10 frames in Snooker or in a single frame Shootout. I know for one Nigej thinks it's a good idea. And Tewapack you don't have a monopoly on what goes on Wikipedia. I'm free to add them if I want. I am putting hard work into it. 178.167.176.131 (talk) 23:35, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I said it was a good idea. I think I said it was an interesting one and you ought to discuss it here. You've never said in any detail what you're planning so it's impossible for me to judge. I like the margin-of-victory/runners-up in the tournament pages since they add interest and the table look better too. Just a bare list of winners is very dull. Whether we need a runners-up section in every players page is another issue. Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a stats site.

An encyclopedia includes all information. If the stats can be gathering there should be no problem including them 178.167.176.131 (talk) 11:14, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I mean a small section we don't need to list them all individually if that would take up too much room. Just a list of career totals whatever works best really and is easy to maintain 178.167.176.131 (talk) 11:18, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Are we talking all Tours from the PGA to the Sunshine Tour that have win boxes? Are we talking just recent golfers or you prepared to dig through reference books to do this thing for HOF players like Gary Player or Julius Boros? What's your sourcing going to be for these sections? Are you ready to tackle all 500 or more players with win boxes to make sure the whole WikiProject looks consistent....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:09, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Yeah all tours. Will try to cover all players obviously. I notice lots of info missing on the old South African Tour. It will obviously be harder to get info for older players compared to nowadays in the age of the net. It's a project but I think it can be achieved 178.167.176.131 (talk) 12:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

None of the tours track a player's 2nd place finishes with the exception of playoff losses. The data would be unreferenced and qualify as WP:OR....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:21, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

What are you talking about check out the European Tour and PGA Tour for a start it gives all players runners-up finishes. I don't know what you are talking about there. Everything will be referenced as is the case with all Wikipedia pages. it's quiet simple really. 178.167.176.131 (talk) 16:23, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

European Challenge Tour and Web.com Tour also list runners-up finishes BTW 178.167.176.131 (talk) 16:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Two Willie Hunters

There were (at least) two Willie Hunter notable enough for an article. The one we have at the moment (Willie Hunter (golfer)) is for William Irvine Hunter (born 1892, sometimes known as Willie Irvine Hunter or Wee Willie Hunter), the son of Harry. Harry had a brother William and this William had a son William (born 1878, a cousin of William Irvine Hunter) who was also notable, playing for Scotland v England and with some good finishes in the Open. This William was also known as Willie. To add to the confusion, William Irvine Hunter had a son William Irvine Hunter, Jr. (born 1924) who was also a professional golfer playing on the PGA Tour at times, I believe. Both Willies (1878 and 1892) ended up in the USA and died there.

"The Majors of Golf" (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JAtHsOzOCoUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) is confused about these Hunters, referring to Willie (born 1878) as William Irvine Hunter, Sr. (this Willie never had the middle name Irvine) and Wee Willie (born 1892) as William Irvine Hunter, Jr. (when really he was Sr.) It also has a "W. H. Hunter" playing in the 1901 and 1902 US Opens who is actually Willie (born 1878).

Anyway the question is what to call the two notable Willie Hunters. My suggestion is to use "William Irvine Hunter" for the one born in 1892, since he is commonly referred to using his middle name. "Willie Irvine Hunter" is used sometimes and is a possibility. Or "Wee Willie Hunter" but that doesn't seem very encyclopedic. The other (born 1878) is currently a red link Willie Hunter, Sr. but that title seems all wrong. He is almost always plain William Hunter (although William George D Hunter when he married in 1903, but these additional names seem to been made up). He could perhaps take over the Willie Hunter (golfer) article. Or we could go for Willie Hunter (golfer, born 1878) and Willie Hunter (golfer, born 1892) which seem long-winded but have some merits.

See eg: http://www.antiquegolfscotland.com/antiquegolf/maker.php3?makerid=716 and http://www.australiangolfheritage.org.au/articles.html#hunters for more details. Nigej (talk) 08:14, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Open Championship

Can we get 2017 British Open to redirect to 2017 Open Championship? I was surprised when I typed it in and Wikipedia didn't know what I was looking for. LordAtlas (talk) 23:09, 10 July 2017 (UTC)