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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Fowler&fowler (talk | contribs) at 20:04, 13 December 2019 (→‎Comment by Fowler&fowler: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Abbasid invasion of Asia Minor (806)

Abbasid invasion of Asia Minor (806) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Constantine ✍ 18:27, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the largest expedition ever launched by the Caliphate against the Byzantines after the Second Arab Siege of Constantinople. Although not as dramatic, it was a climax in the long history of Arab–Byzantine wars: a long period of peace followed, before warfare resumed in the 830s. The article is a bit old, and passed MILHIST's ACR back in 2012, but I have continued working on it, adding some more details. I feel confident that it is as comprehensive as I can get it, but any suggestions for improvement are, as always, welcome. Constantine ✍ 18:27, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Alt text, external links etc are all fine. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Dank

Support by Gog the Mild

  • Haj is duplinked, but permissibly so IMO.
  • "Harun retaliated at once, launching a raid" It is not clear what Harun is retaliating for. From the text Nikephoros had not done anything that needed retaliation. Indeed at this point in the article there has been no mention of any actions at all by him.
  • Good point, it was left rather unclear. Fixed now.
  • "he barely escaped with his own life" Delete "own".
  • Done.
  • "Having settled matters in Khurasan" Do we know what the nature of this settlement was?
  • Clarified the original problem, and rewritten/added some details. Also took the opportunity to re-check and re-order the references to a more fine-grained pattern.
  • "against the local Arab garrison began in Cyprus" suggests that Cyprus was Arab occupied; while "admiral Humayd ibn Ma'yuf al-Hajuri was prepared to raid Cyprus" suggests that it wasn't.
  • Clarified.
  • "asked Harun to send him a girl from Herakleia" Suggest something like 'asked Harun to send him a young Byzantine woman who had been taken captive when Herakleia fell'.
  • Good suggestion, done.
  • The related quote shortly after: consider putting it in a block quote per MOS:BQ.
  • Done.
  • "Abbasid efforts was compounded" Either 'efforts were' or 'effort was'.
  • Done.
  • "Influenced by the events of Harun's 782 campaign" Is this a typo? If not, why is in an article on the 806 campaign?
  • What I meant was that the later narratives conflated the two: the 'famous' expedition was that of 806, and Harun's letter to Nikephoros is widely quoted; but in 782, the Arabs had actually come within sight of Constantinople, so the later sources 'tweaked' things a bit, and had Harun advance to Constantinople twice during Nikephoros' reign. I've tried to clarify this.

And that's all I have. Masterful. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the kind words Gog the Mild. As usual, you also caught (hopefully most of) the stuff I overlooked. Please have a look at my changes and let me know of you have any further comments. Best, Constantine ✍ 21:10, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The changes and clarifications are all good. I am happy to support. Although a cite immediately after the block quote may be helpful. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton

An interesting and engaging article, dealing most informatively in a sphere of history which is entirely new to me. I'm much inclined towards support, but meanwhile have a few issues for discussion or action:

  • The article is quite short, just under 2,000 words ex. lead, of which 680 words deal with background, and 750 with aftermath and impact. That leaves only 550 words on the campaign itself; I just wonder if this constitutes full, comprehensive coverage of the action?
    • A reasonable question, which IMO touches on two issues: one, the comprehensiveness of coverage of the 806 campaign, and two, the relation of the 'main' section to the rest of the article size-wise. On the first, the sources are very brief regarding these events. If you check Tabari's or Theophanes' accounts (which are our main sources), you will see that they only mention towns taken, generals involved, etc., pretty much the same as you can read in the article. This is sadly the case with most of the conflicts of the period, sine chroniclers on both sides give a somewhat sanitized, not to say sterile, version of events. Kennedy makes this point when describing the Siege of Kamacha, where for once we actually have details for an event that otherwise would have been an one-liner in Tabari's account. So there is--unfortunately--nothing more to add on the account of the actual campaign.
      On the second issue, although we don't know much detail about the actual campaign, it still is of importance in the historiography of the Arab-Byzantine conflict, as it represents a certain climax, and impacted both sides: Nikephoros turned west instead of east, etc., not to mention the erection of a victory monument by Harun, the echoes in later literature, etc. So this definitely needs to be unpacked somewhere. The first half of the 'Aftermath' section properly belongs to the denouement of the campaign itself either way. Similarly for the 'Background' section, because the interplay between Harun and Nikephoros needs to be explained in order to give sufficient context for the campaign itself. If you think there is anything redundant, feel free to add it to the list below for discussion
  • Prose: a bit of final polishing is necessary:
  • Lead: "to retaliate for..."? I think you retaliate against.
    • I don't know, but "retaliate against the Byzantine successes" reads odd to me; how can you retaliate against a success?
During my review I started to make the same complaint, anticipated Constantine’s response and left it. It seems to me that the meaning will be entirely clear to a reader and that it is the least grammatically messy way of expressing it without completely recasting it. Wicktionary’s sole quote on the usage of retaliate has “retaliate for”. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:52, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still unhappy with this form, but won't press it unduly. I'll just make one rewording suggestion which I think would work, retaining "for": "In retaliation for the cessation of tribute and the violation of the peace agreement concluded with Irene, Harun launched a raid under his son al-Qasim in spring 803". Brianboulton (talk) 13:09, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is indeed much better, done.
  • Background:
  • I'm not sure of the purpose of "also" in the first line.
  • Leftover from early drafts. Removed.
  • Some pronoun confusion in the first para: we have "when he learned", and in the next line, "he was determined", a different "he". You need to clarify who the different persons are.
  • Good point, fixed.
  • Formulaic phrases like "in addition" should, if possible, be avoided. (It occurs again in the fifth paragraph.)
  • Rephrased, have a look.
  • Now we have "retaliated to"
  • CHanged to "for", see above.
  • I'm not sure that "confronted" is appropriate in the circumstances you describe; exchange of letters doesn't amount to confrontation. Perhaps "faced one another"?
  • Good suggestion, done.
  • Campaign
  • Per MoS, section heading should be just "Campaign", rather than "The campaign"
  • Done.
  • Link "freebooter". The best is probably a pipelink, thus: freebooter
  • Done.
  • "Harun's lieutenant Abdallah ibn Malik al-Khuza'i took Sideropalos, from where Harun's cousin Dawud ibn Isa ibn Musa, with half the Abbasid army, some 70,000 men according to al-Tabari, was sent to devastate Cappadocia." Needs reworking for clarity – too many sub-clauses at present.
  • Rephrased.
  • Impact
  • Third para: I got somewhat lost in the convoluted sentence beginning "Influenced by the events..." There seems some fusion of fact with fiction – needs clarifying
  • Rephrased, please have a look
  • 4th para: Another redundant "also"
  • Removed.
  • I'd replace "due to", another ugly form, with something simple like "left incomplete on Harun's departure..."
  • Done.

Source review follows. Brianboulton (talk) 14:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

  • No spotchecks carried out
  • Links: The archived links in refs 3, 24 and 41 all go to the same place, although the refs cite different chapters. The archived link to Kiapidou in the list of sources isn't working at all.
    • Hmmm, this is troubling, since the original url also appears more often down than not. Google cache still displays at least the text content. Well, there are two options: One, we link to the Google cache and at some point in the future, when the website is again up and running, I will try to archive it again at the Web Archive, although since I can remember and know that the url had been archived, my hunch is that it has been removed by request and therefore is likely to be removed again. Second, I can remove/replace Kiapidou altogether. It was a major source at the inception of this article (as well as its inspiration, TBH), but that is no longer the case; I can simply remove the references and the content would still be more than adequately cited. It would, however, be rather dishonest to do it, for the reasons mentioned before.
  • I think I see a solution to this:
  • The linked source for refs 3, 24 and 41 is this, which has three sections: 1. Historical background; 2. Beginning and outcome of the campaign; 3. Consequences.
  • I assume these sections are the three "chapters" referred to in your refs?
  • Then, all you need do is reformat refs 3, 24 and 41 in harvard short form, and replace the dead link in your sources list with the working link.
  • Hah, I feel really stupid, I didn't check that the links in the footnotes were working, I just went with the main source link, which was dead. I've fixed it now: the correct archive url is in the "Sources" section, and the footnote links point to the relevant sections in the archived copy. I also renamed from the apparently unclear "Chapter X" to the actual section headings. Constantine ✍ 17:23, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Erledigt
  • Formats:
  • Refs 42 and 43 both carry open-ended page ranges, which make verification difficult. Is it possible to be more specific?
  • Certainly, will do this ASAP
  • Done, I reworked and expanded the section somewhat in the process.
  • You could add an oclc number to the 1923 Cambridge medieval history, vol. 4. It is 241580719
  • Done, thanks
  • Quality/reliability: The sources appear to be of a scholarly nature within our FA criteria for quality and reliability. My lack of subject expertise means I can't judge whether they fully cover the topic, but in the absence of any challenge I accept your word that they do.

Otherwise, all well. Brianboulton (talk) 14:58, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fixed, thanks.
@Brianboulton: just a heads up, can you please have a look at my edits and replies above and indicate whether any outstanding issues remain? Cheers, Constantine ✍ 13:27, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No further issues: sources are fine now. Brianboulton (talk) 16:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Brianboulton: Thanks :). What about the general/style comments above? Constantine ✍ 16:28, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your responses to my expressed concerns are fine. I intend to read (slowly) through the whole article again, in a few days' time (you can ping me in a week, if I haven't done so by then) before making a final decision on supporting - so far, I've only speed-read it. Brianboulton (talk) 17:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Take your time and be as nitpicky as you like :). Constantine ✍ 21:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a few additional comments/suggestions:

  • Lead: delete "ever" from first line
    • Erledigt
  • Background:
  • Para 2, 4th line: delete "himself"
  • Changed to "in person"
  • Para 4, line 2: "that summer" – specify year
  • Done, with some rewriting around
  • Campaign: since here you state that the number 135,000 is "certainly exaggerated", perhaps you should mention this in the lead, where the number is first mentioned.
    • Good point, done
  • Aftermath: "surprisingly" is perhaps editorial comment?
    • Indeed, removed.
  • Impact: "Nikephoros's efforts would end tragically in the disastrous Battle of Pliska". A bit vague – you could say "would end with his death". And presumably, the story of his being hanged from the Hagia Sophia is fictional – that needs be be made clearer.
    • Good point, I rewrote the section a bit, I think now it is clear.

An impressive article, deserving of FA status. Brianboulton (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your time and contributions, Brianboulton! Cheers, Constantine ✍ 14:26, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by PM

All the images are appropriately licensed and have appropriate captions. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:05, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

  • Unlink Arab.
  • men from Syria, Palestine, Persia, and Egypt Maybe pipe Persia to the medieval Persia?
    • Was unaware of the link, done.
  • Despite the sack of Herakleia, which is given prominent treatment in Arab sources Isn't the sack a proper noun?
    • You mean it should be capitalized? No, here it is used descriptively, not as a named event.
  • victory monument about 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) west of Raqqa Round the nought here.
    • Done.

That's anything that I found. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:56, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5: your points have been addressed. Anything else? Cheers, Constantine ✍ 18:39, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Fowler&fowler

After quickly reading the lead and skimming the rest of the article, I feel that the article's prose (which includes, syntax, coherence, and cohesion) is insufficient to meeting the requirements of an FA. Here are just a few examples that make it very difficult for a newcomer.

  • Sentence 1: The Abbasid invasion of Asia Minor in 806 was the largest operation launched by the Abbasid Caliphate against the Byzantine Empire.
    • The largest? We know nothing about the lesser invasions, at this point.
    • What is an "operation?" Did they overrun or merely infiltrate?
    • The "Byzantine Empire?" The page name makes no mention of the empire, whose geographical extent in 806 CE, in any case, is not a matter of common knowledge.
    • Where is "Asia Minor" in this explication? It doesn't help that Anatolia (to which it redirects) makes no mention of this invasion, incursion, expedition, or military operation.
  • Sentence 2a: The expedition was commanded in person ...
    • "In person," means, "by one's own action or physical presence." What other forms of command were available to an individual in the early medieval period?
  • Sentence 2b: "who wished to retaliate for the Byzantine successes in the Caliphate's frontier region in the previous year ..."
    • "the Byzantine successes?" We know nothing about them at this stage. The definite article presumes familiarity.
    • To retaliate means to take revenge for, or to avenge, an injury, harm, insult, etc. to a person, nation, etc. A "success" is too much of a euphemism for that injury, harm, or insult. You have to tell us more precisely which Byzantine action constituted an insult. Note I thought BrianB had suggested an improvement, but I don't see it implemented in the lead.
    • You probably want to say something like, "who wanted to avenge the loss of life, property, and livestock incurred during the Byzantine incursions of the previous year." (I'm making that up, but you get the idea.)
      • Or if you want to use retaliate: "invaded Anatolia to retaliate for the loss of life, property, and livestock incurred during the ..."
    • You probably don't want to mention the "frontier region," at this stage. Where else would an incursion have taken place in medieval times if not at a frontier? You especially don't want to link it to thughur which in turn redirects to al-ʿAwāṣim. Too much recondite information for a second sentence. You could point to direction if you like, e.g. "northeastern region," if that is the case.
  • Sentence 2c: and impress Abbasid might upon the Byzantine emperor, Nikephoros I (r. 802–811).
    • What does it mean to impress might upon? Are we saying after avenging an insult he wanted to insult, or to display a medieval version of shock and awe, in return? This is all too vague.
  • Sentence 3a: "The huge Abbasid army"
    • Again, "the" presumes we know about this army or about its relative numerical size.
    • Huge is an informal word, like gigantic, or enormous, meaning very numerous. How is a reader to know what constituted "huge" in 806?
  • Sentence 3b: "—the Arab sources report, with exaggeration, that it numbered 135,000 men—"
    • m-dashes, unless appearing in fiction, or creative non-fiction, should be replaceable with commas. That is not the case here. The third sentence in the lead is not the place for an off-handed aside.
    • "with exaggeration" generally implies that the exaggeration was a deliberate, or invariant, feature of such estimates. Whether or not that is the case, the reader does not know that.
  • Sentence 3c: "set out from Raqqa on 11 June 806,
    • Here we are using Raqqa the modern name for a medieval city, which is fine, but you should tell us what was Raqqa's significance. Why did the army set out from Raqqa?
    • I think you will be better off saying: "On 11 June 806, a large army, numbering 135,000 by some (optimistic) estimates, set out from the Abbasid capital of Raqqa."
  • These are just the first three sentences. But they point to the kind of issues appearing in many later sentences in the article. Besides, the lead is too short for the article. As BrianB has mentioned, the article is already too short. If I had more time, I would oppose its candidacy and stick around to help it improve, but I recommend that my critique be taken as a model of a longer one. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:35, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Fowler&fowler, I will respond to your prose criticisms later, but I just want to point out that article length is not a criterion for Featured Article. Article comprehensiveness is, which has not been challenged by any editor thus far. Unless you know of information I have missed, the article length will therefore not change much. I am also rather confused by your final statement "If I had more time, I would oppose its candidacy and stick around to help it improve, but I recommend that my critique be taken as a model of a longer one". What exactly is this review in service of if you don't intend it as a basis for improving the article here and now? Do you suggest a quickfail based on prose and/or length? And your critique thus far does not touch anything that might actually increase article length (apart from a bigger lede, perhaps), so I fail to see how it can be taken as a "model of a longer one". Constantine ✍ 17:59, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I know the rules, but why are we in this business? To write something that is worth reading for an average layperson, or to Wikilawyer our way to a bronze star? There is obviously an unstated lower limit for length. You have two articles, Abbasid invasion of Asia Minor (782) and Abbasid invasion of Asia Minor (806). The first begins with, "Abbasid invasion of Asia Minor in 782 was one of the largest operations launched by the Abbasid Caliphate against the Byzantine Empire," the second with, "The Abbasid invasion of Asia Minor in 806 was the largest operation launched by the Abbasid Caliphate against the Byzantine Empire." Well, how many operations were there? If there is no lower limit, can we go lower? What I mean is, both articles are relatively short, use the same sources, have the same organization, and are part of the same context, involving the same Caliph, or would-be Caliph. Neither, for example, is mentioned in the Britannica article on Harun al Rashid. If there truly are no more sources, then why not combine the articles? The need for context in one of the FA criteria would almost require that. And even if you don't want to combine them, consider the one paragraph that I have read in the lead. It is already full of references, by way of either direct mention or the use of the definite article, to a wider context, which leaves the average reader puzzled. Examine the first sentence of the next section: "The deposition of Byzantine empress Irene of Athens in October 802 and the accession of Nikephoros I in her place marked the start of a more violent phase in the long history of the Arab–Byzantine wars." How does a deposition or accession by itself mark a violent phase? That long history, according to the link, lasted from the seventh century to the eleventh. Did the violent phase last from 802 until the end of the eleventh century? Imagine yourself in the shoes of an ordinary reader, who clicks on the link Arab–Byzantine wars and happens upon the paragraph:

"Wishing to emphasize his piety and role as the leader of the Muslim community, Caliph Harun al-Rashid (r. 786–809) in particular was the most energetic of the early Abbasid rulers in his pursuit of warfare against Byzantium: he established his seat at Raqqa close to the frontier, he complemented the thughur in 786 by forming a second defensive line along northern Syria, the al-'Awasim, and was reputed to be spending alternating years leading the Hajj and leading a campaign into Anatolia, including the largest expedition assembled under the Abbasids, in 806."

Though it needs tidying up, it at least explains the background. Do you see the issues? I could help you but there is some basic reorganization, expansion, and improvement of accessibility (for an ordinary reader) that you need to do yourself. You don't need new sources for that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:13, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but if you think that my asking a few questions and challenging your approach is my "wikilawyering" after another bronze star, then you have a massive lack of WP:AGF. You can ask some other editors in this very review whether I "wikilawyer" myself though nominations or whether I insist on details and proper work before I pass any work, or indeed put my own work forward for judgment. But that is beside the point. What I object to is your arbitrarily moving (or inventing) the goalposts, and I have every right to be upset by this.
First, "There is obviously an unstated lower limit for length." is simply not true; either the rules prescribe a limit or they don't. Criterion four insists on an article being"focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail and uses summary style". The topic is the 806 invasion, and the article deals, AFAIK, with it in the most comprehensive way. I repeat, if you find the article lacking in its treatment of the subject, i.e., the 806 invasion, be my guest to hold up the nomination for as long as it takes for me to address this deficiency. But you don't even try to make this argument. Instead you now propose to "combine the articles", because they "are part of the same context, involving the same Caliph, or would-be Caliph", even though they deal with events 24 years apart. This is, sorry to say, complete nonsense. By this argument, we should also merge the articles on the War of the Austrian Succession and the Seven Years War... Likewise, "Neither, for example, is mentioned in the Britannica article on Harun al Rashid." is yet another invented goalpost... You'd be surprised how much that is not mentioned in Britannica is actually mentioned in high-quality Wikipedia articles... FWIW, I usually don't even consider submitting an article to GA, let alone for FA, before it is considerably more complete than the best tertiary source I can find on it.
Now, on the heart of your complaints, as far as I can see they concern prose style. Prose is not a structural problem, it is a matter of adjusting the exposition of the content already in the article. That is precisely the sort of problem that can easily be addressed within the confines of a FA review. So please, if you think the prose has problems, point them out and let me try to correct them now. But summarily dismissing the article in toto because of "length" and prose problems in what amounts to an "I don't like it" review is neither useful to me, nor to the article, nor to this project. Constantine ✍ 13:50, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A vigrous defense of something or other you might have mounted, but you still haven't fixed the first three sentences of the lead. The determiner "the" is most commonly used to refer to things that are a part of the writer's and the reader's shared world. (or Websters: "used as a function word to indicate that a following noun or noun equivalent refers to someone or something previously mentioned or clearly understood from the context or the situation.) There seem to be several misuses of "the" throughout the article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:04, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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