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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ivanvector (talk | contribs) at 18:18, 14 July 2021 (→‎Requested move 4 July 2021: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Name changes

I have added numerous name changes and statue removals done in the wake of the discoveries of the graves. I am wondering if it might be better in a table format, similar to the articles here, here, and here. Much of the prose I am writing, especially for the schools, takes on the same format and includes:

  1. old name
  2. new name
  3. who was responsible
  4. when it was done
  5. why the change is being made (description of the eponym)

They could be grouped by category (e.g., schools, statues, publications, etc.), with a column at the end for details. Another section could have proposed name changes. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 09:12, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It may very well become necessary to condense into a table, with a general overview preceding it. Not sure it's necessary yet, but no harm in having it set up. - Floydian τ ¢ 16:56, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2021?

there are articles about it from as early as 2015 (BBC)? Wilhelm3 (talk) 16:36, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The actual discoveries took place this year, but the historical context goes back hundreds of years. This article is just meant to bring together the two major discoveries this year, and the inevitable others that are to come in the next few months. - Floydian τ ¢ 16:53, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the Brandon one's from 2019, so I agree to drop the year, especially since it's already almost July and the rest could easily take years to find (and that's not even figuring for potential future lockdowns and coverups). InedibleHulk (talk) 21:23, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah there's no reason for this article to restrict itself to 2021, considering both Brandon's earlier discoveries, the preliminary work done by Tk'emlups te Secwepemc in the early 2000s, and the fact that these discoveries will keep coming. I reckon the title should be something like "Unmarked graves at Canadian Indian residential schools" as suggested by CaffeinAddict and Floydian on Talk:Kamloops Indian Residential School. James Hyett (talk) 21:44, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Unmarked" might be shortsighted, too. Markers are planned, to the extent possible. And in this political climate, things can move relatively fast. The gravesites will stay discovered, though, near what used to be and are still easier to call Canadian Indian residential schools. That much is known. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose the year is an unnecessary qualifier, given that there aren't other articles covering this topic for other years. Dropping the year is the simple solution. FWIW, the Brandon IRS unmarked graves weren't announced until June 4th; the study commenced in 2019, so we shouldn't label this as when the "discoveries" started. - Floydian τ ¢ 23:15, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for unilaterally moving the page without consensus, I just moved it back to its original page name as to how it was when it was first started. If the page should be moved, it should go through the formal move request process so I just moved it back to the original very first name the page had. The 2021 is a necessary qualifier as 2021 is the year in which the discoveries really started to "breaking out" and gaining major traction and widespread domestic and international media coverage in the news. If we don't keep the 2021 who's to stop someone from adding older discoveries such as the 1974 72 graves at the Battleford Industrial School to the article "Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries"? Unless I am greatly mistaken, and this page is in fact meant to be for discoveries in the entire history of Canada in general, I thought this page was only about the surgence of discoveries since Kamloops 2021. This page is about the discoveries that mostly went underway in 2021 and not other years. Yes, the Brandon search started in 2019, but it was not until June 4, 2021, that it was announced that they had located 104 potential graves. Yes, the actual discoveries took place this year, but the historical context goes back hundreds of years - correct, which is why i think it is important to note that the mass discoveries began in 2021. Tragically, there potentially could be even more graves unearthed moving forward this year and even this decade going into 2021, 2022, 2023... so unfortunately the page might end up in the future as " 2020s Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries. " Yeungkahchun (talk) 03:41, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The announcements were mostly this year, definitely. But there's a process called discovery, too, made of particular discovery events. First you hear the stories, then you find the land, then you use the radar. Next you discover who was buried where, and when, possibly why. The whole thing was interrupted by the COVID response, but it's still a whole thing that had already started. And to be clear, this doesn't cover all of Canada, for hundreds of years. Just the residential school plots from the residential school era (about 150 years). InedibleHulk (talk) 20:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly won't stop anyone from recalling and accounting for Battleford. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:48, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Statues and institutional name changes

The weightiness of this list is starting to overtake the core purpose of this article, to document the discoveries and the direct reactions to those discoveries. A lot of the "iconoclasm" (really?) is part of the larger ideology of systemic racism, not just indigenous issues and often not a direct response to these discoveries. One notable exception would be the toppling of the statue at Ryerson University. There are hundreds of schools, institutes, etc. named for John A. Macdonald; shall we list each change by each overseeing government body in each region?.. or just say "In the wake of the discoveries at Kamloops and Marieval, numerous schools indicated they would be changing their names, which currently commemorate X, Y and Z. In addition, the cities of A, B and C have removed public statues of X and Y."? - Floydian τ ¢ 23:29, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's definitely too big. As more graves are found, it won't be getting shorter. A lot of seriously and widely controversial things have standalone reaction articles. Shoveling it there might make more sense than trying to continually fold it together or prune it back here. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the sources (like this one) mention the changes as direct results of the Kamloops discoveries, but it might be better branched off into a separate article like InedibleHulk said. Something similar to List of changes made due to the George Floyd protests or List of name changes due to the George Floyd protests. 188.148.229.11 (talk) 07:11, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Map of every residential school site in Canada

Map
Map of all Indian Residential Schools in Canada. Edit-preview this section to view the map properly, as it may take a few hours to process the thumbnail.
  Confirmed discoveries   Investigations underway as of June 26, 2021
  Other Indian Residential Schools

Would anyone be interested in making a map for the site of every residential school in canada, like in [here]? Frozemint (talk) 00:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a handy list of addresses or locations, I can make an interactive KML/json map fairly quickly. - Floydian τ ¢ 00:59, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The map in the tweet comes from the canadian encyopedia, which in turn uses a google map with markers I believe. It might be possible to simply parse through the markers and obtain the necessary data. There is a LOT of data points however, so I am hoping someone with more expertise in this area could help. The intend is to put the discovery of unmarked graves in all the locations so far within the context of just how widespread residential schools were. Frozemint (talk) 04:08, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've spent the last couple hours working on a map that would have the names, years active, and colour coded to show the sites with confirmed discoveries, sites currently being examined, and the remainder. I'm using IRSHDC[1] and NCTR[2] to locate the often difficult to pinpoint locations... but I'm only up to Bishop Horden; slow go. - Floydian τ ¢ 04:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Understandable, thanks for putting in the effort. Frozemint (talk) 05:23, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, so the data is in place. Needs some work to be displayable (see to right... give it about 4 hours to display properly, or edit and preview the section), but it's there. On my way I got to experience the geography of Canada far beyond what I have ever seen. However, I feel like Sam O'Neil on the bridge of the Event Horizon... I have been to hell and back. Every profile, every list of confirmed deaths. It is disturbing to say the least, and I hope everybody gets to see what our government and the church did to these children. - Floydian τ ¢ 04:11, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, suggesting the addition of a map like the one you made, ensuring the readers of the article appreciate the sheer scale of the atrocities this country committed was exactly the intend. Thank you again for your hard work. Frozemint (talk) 06:32, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Children vs people

Is there any evidence that any of these unmarked graves do *not* contain children? Sources seem to be going with "children", from what I have seen. Elinruby (talk) 18:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They were residential schools, so safe to assume most were native children. But unsanitary conditions, improper heating and routine violence don't discriminate against killing old white Christians, either. Proposed edit? InedibleHulk (talk) 19:41, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know I've encountered in a few of the hundreds of articles that staff, caretakers, and the non-aboriginal students, were also buried in these cemeteries. What the article needs to note is that these are not exhumed graves, but "pings" on a Ground Penetrating Radar survey. Some could be empty, some could be filled with multiple bodies. The headlines seem to steer this more than the substance. - Floydian τ ¢ 20:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
An empty grave would just be dirt. These weren't often likely like modern urban crooks, sneaking in luxurious vaults or liners. But yeah, if it needs saying, by all means make clear that (Crown and corporate) Canada doesn't dig up "Indian burial grounds" on purpose! InedibleHulk (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Big ref

I've spoken with a researcher at Indian Residential School History and Dialogue Centre (IRSHDC) and received links to a significant report that focuses on the unmarked graves and cemeteries at residential schools, as well as providing a background on the conditions of the buildings and disease outbreaks (particularly tuberculosis and a notable bit on the damage the Spanish flu caused). This should replace newspaper sources wherever possible.

-- Floydian τ ¢ 16:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 21:06, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2021 Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries → Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries – Basically to formalize what already appears to be a clear consensus at the page's 2021? section. The year is an unnecessary qualifier, and potentially confusing too since many references are years old and the process of discovery started way back then. There is also no apparent reason not to expand the scope to potentially include Battleford Industrial School gravesite discovery from 1972. I would add that concision is also a factor. Surtsicna (talk) 18:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Response 1) in a non-Canadian view of the subject Residential school disambiguations include Boarding school, so by calling it what it is - whether the name was offensive or not is just proper semantics. 2) Despite the knowledge of there being unmarked graves, the scale to which they existed is still a "discovery" as they had to use forensic and archaeological means to find said gravesites. CaffeinAddict (talk) 06:22, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Murray Sinclair's use of hyperbole

Under the heading "Background", the two final sentences of the first paragraph state "An exact number of school-related deaths remains unknown due to incomplete records from negligence. Estimates range from 3,200 to over 30,000." Two sources are cited for this rather astonishing claim: an article from the CBC website, which states "Sinclair offered the figure of 6,000 in a later interview with Evan Solomon to air Saturday on CBC Radio's The House — much higher than earlier estimates that put the number of school children who died in the system at less than 4,000, but still possibly far short of the real outcome", and an article on The Canadian Encyclopedia's website, which states "The commission also found that approximately 3,200 residential school students died of malnourishment, tuberculosis and other diseases caused by poor living conditions. Justice Murray Sinclair argued that this number is likely higher, perhaps 5 to 10 times as much; however, due to poor burial records, the commission could not report a more accurate number." With context it is clear that Mr. Sinclair is not citing an "estimate" he is using hyperbole, in the way that people often do when they say "it could be 5 or 10 or 50 or 100 times as much", without it ever actually reflecting an objective evaluation of the evidence. Why not just make it an even 100,000, and have done with it, one wonders? The commission which actually investigated the matter -- comprised of First Nations persons -- came up with the "3,200" number, and the government's other investigation came up with the "less than 4,000" figure. Citing Sinclair's fresh-out-of-a-nearby-orifice claim of "5 to 10 times" as much, gives undue weight to the extreme number he suggested. An encyclopedia should not be in the practice of promoting guesstimates or scientific wild-ass guesses. Bricology (talk) 05:21, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, even the TRC report (which should be the third source on that sentence) states:

The commission also found that approximately 3,200 residential school students died of malnourishment, tuberculosis and other diseases caused by poor living conditions. Justice Murray Sinclair argued that this number is likely higher, perhaps 5 to 10 times as much; however, due to poor burial records, the commission could not report a more accurate number.[3]

And given that they've found 966 at two of the 139 former schools (there's more than that when you consider they switched sites in many cases), 3,200 is going to come and go very quickly. But in the spirit of what you are saying, I think we could truncate it to something along the lines of "the TRC Report estimates 3,200. However, many believe this to be a conservative estimate, and he actual number to be much higher." - Floydian τ ¢ 13:21, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the sentence could rather say something like "the TRC Report estimates 3,200. However, other sources state this to be a conservative estimate, and the actual number could be much higher." along with the sources that state the higher numbers theories etc rather than "many believe" because that choice of words adds a faith/unsupported air to the sentences. Shearonink (talk) 14:50, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, too much WP:WEASEL. I think what you wrote there is perfect. - Floydian τ ¢ 16:53, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I adjusted the sentence/the section but not sure it is what editorial consensus seems to be - feel free to adjust/change/etc. Shearonink (talk) 17:32, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suspicious burnings of Catholic churches

After the discoveries, a number of Catholic churches began burning down across western Canada (primarily in First Nations reserves), all of which have been labelled as suspicious by the police investigators. They likely shouldn't be included as reactions until they're definitively shown to be arson motivated by the discoveries, but given the timing and specificity of the locations/buildings, many are already speculating that they are. Maybe they should be mentioned under Reactions as "suspected"? Even if some/all of them are proven to be independent, I don't think having mention of them as "suspected to be related but later found to not be" would be out of place. 206.214.235.110 (talk) 16:26, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that given the incidents are still under investigation, it would be disingenuous and misleading to include speculations into the article at this point (WP:SPECULATION). Frozemint (talk) 17:34, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But very reliable sources do speculate. Surtsicna (talk) 18:36, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So let's be more reliable and not speculate. Undoubtedly the connection will be made, but we should wait until then. - Floydian τ ¢ 12:43, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Floydian, Surtsicna (and ping to Ivanvector) what about creating a separate article 2021 Canadian church burnings? With the latest Edmonton church burned to ground this is now become a national issue of enduring significance. Even if it turns out this is unconnected the events would be notable for how wrong everyone was to make this connection.VR talk 15:25, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have yet to see a news article about one of these fires that does not mention gravesite discoveries. I am not saying that we should go as far as the Alberta premier, who is bluntly speaking of the fires as hate crimes, but excluding any mention of the church burnings is not helpful to the readers. I do not see why we should not report it as reliable sources do: simply state that churches are burning and that investigations into possible links with gravesite discoveries are taking place. Surtsicna (talk) 15:48, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My proposal is simply to link 2021 Canadian church burnings in the "See also" section of this article. The article on Church burnings would be standalone as its notable in its own right.VR talk 16:02, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In accordance with previous similar articles, the movement that is being accused (whether justifiably or not) ought to have explicit mention of their accused activities, particularly when there are so many sources making such claims. As such, I’ll be adding it to this article. I’m presently against creating a new article on these church burnings because there has not been a serious link made between them independent of speculation. Once a definitive link has been made by at least one serious credible source, I think a new article on the church burnings would be a welcome addition and provide additional context that would be inappropriate for this article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:00, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm honestly not sure why I was pinged here, but thanks. These events are being covered in major international news sources (BBC, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post) so coverage on Wikipedia is warranted. Those sources are also explicitly linking the burnings to the "discoveries" (not really discoveries, governments and religious orders have known for decades) of unmarked children's graves on former residential school grounds. Do we already have an article on the gravesites? The burnings belong in that article. If they turn out to be entirely random and not related at all, that's still the correct article. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 00:14, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, that's this article. I thought this was the WikiProject Canada discussion board. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 00:19, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New Brunswick

"In New Brunswick, Education Minister Dominic Cardy said the education curriculum would be amended to teach about the province's Indigenous day schools.[36]"

The platitude is nice, but New Brunswick didn't have any residential schools. - Floydian τ ¢ 12:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 July 2021

Canadian Indian residential schools gravesite discoveries → Canadian Indian residential schools gravesites – Per a note made (by me) late in the previous move discussion regarding "discoveries" in the title. What makes these gravesites notable isn't the fact that they're being located, it's that they exist at all. "Discoveries" also perpetuates the POV settler narrative that nobody knew they were there until now, despite it being well known for more than a century now that Indigenous children were dying at these schools at rates far exceeding childhood mortality rates in the general population (thanks to deliberately poor care, severe physical abuse, and medical experimentation) but the dead were never returned to their families, and despite decades of activism on that exact subject. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ivanvector and others, any opinion on "schools" vs "school" as brought up above? Lennart97 (talk) 19:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kevin D. Annett

Surprised not seeing any references or discussion to the work of Kevin D. Annett who seems to have started or at least facilitated the conversations we are having here since the late 1980s. A little background:

1. As late as March 2021 Reuters called him a conspiracy theorist: Reuters. This has surprisingly not been retracted by Reuters following the Canadian discoveries of May/June 2021.

2. His Wikipedia page (in English) has been deleted some years ago as not notable enough. This is strange as his collaborators are as blue-chip as they come, including, on the Canadian indigenous case, Baltasar Garzón, the Spanish prosecutor. However, Annett has been defrocked by his church in Canada sometime in the early 1990s for researching the subject and deported from England for the same as recently as ~2010, although he has had steady but muted exposure in the Canadian media over the last 3 decades.

Annett focuses on publishing first-person evidence of the Canadian residential school system victims and attempting to prosecute perpetrators under international law. I encourage other editors to look into this material and reference it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.26.202.156 (talk • contribs) 10:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rewriting the article's "discoveries" framing

Per the legitimate concerns raised by Ivanvector, where we definitely don't want to perpetuate the myth of the gravesites and frame it as a "discovery", do we want to rewrite the intro of the article, where the "discovery" wording is still used? I think there is a bit of consensus already from the second renaming voting, but I just want to throw in an extra section here before we go ahead with the correction. Frozemint (talk) 18:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources to balance in some NPOV

This hot-off-the-presses article from the New York Post has an interesting quote, which succinctly explains what I feel is a more neutral the opposite POV on the topic.

"Most of the teachers, priests, nuns and others in charge were well-meaning, though, as in any group, some bad apples took advantage of their positions to inflict abuse. The idea was to turn poverty-stricken children into productive, even prosperous, members of mainstream Canadian society — and, from the church’s perspective, to save their souls."
Torrance, Kelly Jane (July 12, 2021). "US media shamefully justified a string of Canadian church burnings". New York Post. Retrieved July 12, 2021.

This UVIC dissertation offers a good in-depth look into the conditions of not only the schools, but the communities, the children, the general population by comparison, etc. after 1930 (though it covers before that too, oddly)

Making Poverty: A History of On-reserve Housing Programs, 1930-1996

As it stands, the "Background" section gives the impression that, for 115 years, the entire staff at these schools beat and tortured all the children attending every one of them. Obviously with the recentism straining towards the sensationalist approach to this story ("that'll rile 'em up"), it's a topic that is difficult to offer a grounded approach to without upsetting someone. - Floydian τ ¢ 01:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:
1. Why do you think the first quote is "impartial"/neutral POV? There is no proof that the staff were well-meaning, bearing in mind that up tp 50% of the inmates died. The facts are proof to the contrary. Being positive about this is clearly partial - will you stand by it when there are 10 "discoveries"? How about 100? Are you aware of the size of the pipeline and the range of estimates of the dead? Are you aware indigenous people were not legally permitted to sue (or vote) still in the relatively recent past? Even though Canadian government controls the "discoveries" by controlling the funding (it could stop any time) and allocating it to particular indigenous organizations (which might be more government-friendly than others), this might be difficult to stop.
2. Why would you think a 25+ year old (pre-internet) study would provide a neutral point of view? If you go back long enough you will find UVIC studies supporting apartheid (just 10 years back would be by guess).37.143.126.151 (talk) 11:25, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your speculation adds nothing to this. the article is currently almost entirely based on the truth and reconciliation report, which as we are learning now, also wasn't too accurate. "Up to 50% of the inmates died" shows you are not impartial, nor capable of not grossly exaggerating. The number of discoveries is irrelevant; we know they are there, we have known they were there for a very long time. I am very aware as I have gone through the entire TRC report, as well as the background and TRC death list for every individual school, including the 5 in Nfld not covered in the TRC report. Being one sided is not neutral, nor is the remainder of your tangent. The Canadian government also controls the media by allocating funding of it to particular media organizations (which might be more government-friendly than others), most notably the CBC which makes up half the references, so moot point. As for point two, what relevance does the internet have (the lack of sensationalism, perhaps)? "If you go back far enough" is not a valid objection, if you go back far enough tuberculosis killed 5-10% of children, everywhere in Canada... but again your speculation holds no value. Also, if you note above, I said that these sources provide a different look into the situation, to balance in a neutral point of view. - Floydian τ ¢
Going to jump in here and say that, while the IP poster is seems to desire certain non-neutral perspectives into the article, the New York Post is not reflective of a NPOV perspective. Besides the NYP‘s well-established character of taking sides on issues, they do perform admirable reporting on occasion. However, in this instance, the quoted block posted by Floydian is very clearly intended to deflect blame from the institutions as a whole and place the onus on a select group of “bad apples.” This is an interpretation of the events in question, as one could reasonably counter such a statement by saying the residential school system gave these “bad apples” the ability to inflict significant harm. Further, it attempts to legitimize the efforts of the residential schools. As a Catholic, I see missionary endeavors as a noble exercise, but I’m willing to admit that it isn’t universally perceived as such. I would suggest seeking a few new disinterested editors to help improve this article and ensure concordance with the guidelines established by WP:NPOV. All that said, excellent work from those who have been researching and posting additional information over the last few weeks. I wish my contribution could be as substantial. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough about NYP. However, I have seen some stories and articles regarding the "positive" light, and I just want the article to make clear that these atrocities weren't committed at every school and/or throughout their history. For example: Huffington Post, Toronto Sun (from yesterday)
I'm not looking to falsely characterize this stuff as "oh it was only here and there", more just a simple "while a handful of communities benefited from the program, it was by and large the site of sickness, starvation, and assault"...etc. etc. - Floydian τ ¢ 22:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Did not wish to imply you were violating NPOV. You've done an excellent job of using multiple sources throughout this article. I think my complaints can be more levied with the lack of similar efforts from editors such as myself. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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