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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sammi Brie (talk | contribs) at 02:30, 13 February 2022 (→‎Implementation: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Make cable provider/channel number collapsable by country or continent?

The cable provider and channel list is getting kinda long as more and more countries get cable TV is there a way to make a collapsable list by country? So like "United States" may have within "DirecTV, Dish Network, Fios, Time Warner, Cox, etc." U.K. might have "Sky, etc., etc.... ", Canada "Rogers, Bell, Shaw, etc., etc." CaribDigita (talk) 00:52, 22 April 2013‎ (UTC)[reply]

If not by country perhaps why not by continent? Africa, Americas , Asia, Europe, Oceania?

web/website

Raymie, I found an article today using both |web= and |website=, and there was no warning of conflicting parameters. It looks like if just one is used, there is no problem. If both are used, the value in website is used (which may be blank) and overrides whatever is in web=. Not sure if there are other parameters with potential conflicts. If there are just a few articles using web=, we could find and fix them and deprecate the para. Or we (you) could add the conflicting para code here. MB 01:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MB, should I just get rid of |web=? There are also a couple other parameters with aliases: |tv_stations=/|tv_transmitters= (without underscore), |image_alt= and |alt=, and |language=/|languages=. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 01:37, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if there are not many uses. Do you want to add a tracking category so we can see the extent of the problem? MB 01:40, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I might, since as an alias it does not split out in the template data report. The other param ones I'm probably keeping. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:03, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, MB, it comes out to at least 3,200 pages from briefly having a category in page. Guess I have to roll this in the PrimeBOT slogan-removing task that's delayed because it's substing out the Z templates. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:15, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok we could just keep it as an alias for website, but add a "clobbered parameter" check to catch only those cases where both are used - those are the only ones that really need to be addressed. MB 04:18, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The first two I picked randomly from the cat were only using web=. MB 04:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that might be the way to go, to catch these clobber cases. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:21, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It would probably save a lot of "cosmetic" edits (I don't think the "cosmetic bot day" every got approved!) MB 05:30, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I need PrimeBOT to run anyway to ax the slogan tag, so I've simply added that to the request. It might be a while with all those Zs to remove. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sammi Brie, I was thinking about this again. What will Primebot do? I thought it only removed deprecated template parameters. In this case, it can't remove web or website since either could have a good value. Does it do more? Like only remove a para if it has no value. That would, hopefully, leave a small number article for manual cleanup. MB 15:04, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just moved house and my PC is still in storage (which has all of my AWB settings), so this bot run is still probably a week or two out (sorry for the delay). If there's an issue with web/website and you are looking to get rid of "web", then I would do a check to see which parameter is used and store the value under |website= (or just keep website if web is also populated). Primefac (talk) 10:48, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, thanks for the guidance. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 18:02, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd actually advocate going with your initial idea mainly because you also have a |webcast= parameter which then leads to ambiguity to what |web= was the editor referring to. And we all know editors always manage to surprise us. Gonnym (talk) 08:16, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we should deprecate |web= and only use |website=. But to do this properly, we have to manually determined what value to use in any articles that use currently have a value in both parameters. We shouldn't just blindly remove |web=. I believe Primefac is saying he can 1) remove web= if it is empty, 2) move values from web= to website= if website= is empty, 3) do nothing if both have values. After the bot run, anything left can be fixed manually. MB 16:49, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. Primefac (talk) 08:12, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, it might take a while to populate but I've set up a page for the clobbered params. I haven't edited any yet (still working through the slogans of a different template) but they mostly look like straight duplicates. Might still be worth cleaning them up manually since there are only 0. Primefac (talk) 12:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
14 Done. A few were straight duplicates. Several had one value that I moved to |webcast=. If that is all there are/were, |web= can be completely removed now. MB 15:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

0 left in Category:Pages using infobox television channel with parameter web but I'm tired and headed to bed. Once those are done |web= can be formally removed. Primefac (talk) 21:34, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. MB 22:17, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Availability section

I just noticed this, but the "Availability" section of this Infobox is showing up on articles where there is no data to show (defunct channels). I don't remember this occurring before. One example is Cable Music Channel. If this was already brought up, disregard my post.Msw1002 (talk) 05:55, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Msw1002, there's some quirkiness with the autoheaders under it because those fields that Cable Music Channel does not call are actually coded into a child infobox. I'm a bit lost on how to handle it myself. If I hide it, it forces "Links" to show up instead. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 06:08, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC for removal of "Availability" section

Should the Availability section of the template be removed? Gotitbro (talk) 16:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Need consensus for a template module that has caused contention between multiple editors on different articles (back and forth removal/addition). I personally see no encyclopedic value for this information per WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE. These are mostly unsourced channel numbers which I don't think are valuable at all, multiple channel service catalogues exist for this, this should not be Wikipedia's purpose. There are a plethora of cable, satellite, streaming, IPTV, terrestrial etc. services and these channel numbers keep changing frequently; people keep adding them to articles which in many cases takes up more space than the content itself. Gotitbro (talk) 16:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Last year, I led a major technical overhaul of this long-neglected template and cut down the capacity limits significantly (when some thought they should be increased, among the most ridiculous ideas I've seen peddled on this encyclopedia). I also have implemented a policy where television channels that are so broadly available (e.g. dozens of countries in a region or something like BBC World News) that including this information would result in an unacceptably long infobox should not have it at all except for terrestrial carriers. (Ideally, all the listed providers should be in the same country.) I am a bit hesitant to support this yet, but its removal could very well reduce the high maintenance load on these pages. Note that removal would require a PrimeBOT task 30 run to be done efficiently. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 20:29, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Did think about terrestrial channel numbers but then haven't really seen them being used ({{Infobox television station}} already serves that in a sense). Doing away with all the clutter seems better. Gotitbro (talk) 21:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The case where you'd need terrestrial numbers in that box is the European one. It could even be said that's information worth keeping in the infobox in that particular case.
    Infobox television station and Infobox television channel are solutions for countries with different kinds of ways of organizing TV service. The former is used in countries where stations tend to be individual in character, restricted to a specific area, and own their own transmission equipment, with major users including the United States, Canada, Japan, Australia, Argentina, and Mexico. Infobox television channel is used for terrestrial services in places like European countries, where a single service, e.g. BBC One or Disney Channel (Spanish TV channel), may have one number nationally as part of a national digital terrestrial television system (the archetype cases would be the UK, France, Spain, Germany, etc.)
    Historically, WikiProject Television Stations (now a task force) focused almost exclusively on the former (and even then concentrating on North America) and not on the latter, or on the other category of users of Infobox television channel: pay TV services on cable, satellite, etc., including in the United States. One of the reasons I've been so adamant about increasing its scope to include all of the types of articles I've described is because this caused neglect in the support infrastructure around those other pages and because people outside of the project logically thought they belonged in the scope anyway. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 21:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This would mean that they are just territorial re-broadcasts of the channels, making them not highly different from the other params to be removed. While I could see some value here, going to rely on NOTDIRECTORY again for this one. For listing individual stations/broadcasters the separate template exists. Gotitbro (talk) 23:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absolutely support removal per WP:NOTDIR. Consensus has been to delete full lists of company channel lineups (AfDs like this, this, this, [[1]], etc.), and there's no difference in listing constantly-changing channel numbers as a guide. Belongs off Wikipedia -- Wikipedical (talk) 22:03, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Gotitbro. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:04, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with conditions. The inherent problem with the "Availability" section is twofold:
  1. It is almost impossible to properly source channel placement on pay TV operators, and even then, the burden of editing when a channel placement is changed is needlessly complicated.
  2. Inadequate international concerns. Much of the template in general was designed with United States television stations and channels in mind, which is fine except for one thing: the U.S. is a major outlier regarding the structures of broadcasting, especially the network-affiliate model and pay television. The freeview method of broadcasting pay channels via terrestrial means is not the case here (although attempts had been made in the past and ATSC 3.0 is hinting of a similar concept).
Basically, I am in agreement with Sammi Brie in retaining any and all freeview information and renaming the section to reflect as such. The rest—cable, satellite and IPTV—can go. Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 17:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Implementation

@Gotitbro, Wikipedical, Favre1fan93, and Nathan Obral:

I'm proposing a three-fold implementation schedule:

  1. A PrimeBOT 30 run to remove all of the cable, sat, satradio and iptv parameters.
  2. A review of the contents of the online parameters (some may contain webcast links to be provided by the |webcast= parameter, which arrived in 2020 and thus underused) before their removal.
  3. Trimming terrestrial lists. Ultimately, there will only be 2–3 terrestrial options supported.

Does this work out? If so, I will ask PrimeBOT to make the change. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 00:52, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll need a full list of params to remove for the run, but since it looks like there's consensus I can make it happen. Primefac (talk) 11:39, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here they are, Primefac: cable_chan_1 (through _10), cable_serv_1 (through _10), sat_chan_1 (through _10), sat_serv_1 (through _10), satradio_chan_1 (through _2), satradio_serv_1 (through _2), iptv_chan_1 (through _8), iptv_serv_1 (through _8). Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:31, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get to this soonish. Primefac (talk) 11:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I’m in support. Simple, straightforward and will help the ibxes a lot. Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 20:44, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just saw this implemented; agreement that this has been needed for years. I'm ready to see the 'channel vandals' who threw in local cable positions or false satellite positions and ignored multiple warnings that we're not Channel Guide magazine either leave in frustration or be ignored because their template edits now scream into the void. I'm also ready for the multiple online services (or ones which use us to SPAM their illegal services) to be removed; I'm tired of having to remove randomly popping up "Jim Bob's 100% I Promise Legal TV Streamin' Service for Wrassling" crap, or for like Newsmax TV, stream free on so many services that it's obnoxious when you can just say 'multiple services' in article text and be done with it. Eventually, there's going to be a big shakeout with satellite and cable and rerun channels as wireline fades away, and I'd rather not have to spend needless editing time removing things or detailing that 'on September 39th, 2024, DirecTV dumped Military History and Lifetime Real Women'. Nate • (chatter) 01:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mrschimpf That is a mood—and indeed one of the reasons this had to go was the fragmentation of how people consume TV from how things were even 5 or 10 years ago, let alone 15. By not removing the online parameters right away, I want to have enough time to save the appropriate webcast links. The TV station and channel boxes took years to get that field (unlike radio), and some of these can actually use it. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:30, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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