Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel

This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Relevance of ICC chief prosecutor's visit

The ICC chief prosecutor didn't anywhere mention 'genocide'. He merely acknowledges that the ICC is prepared to investigate war crimes (of both sides?). That the Oct 7th attack was murderous is certain, but the relevance of the ICC visit isn't clear. Obviously an investigator is not going to offer an opinion either way at this stage, prior to independent ICC investigation, so why is he there? I can't read the full Haaretz piece (£££.$$$.€€€). Pincrete (talk) 10:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Second Holocaust

Most of this article is WP:SYNTH as most sources in the article do not explicitly state that the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel was genocide (in fact some of the sources used in this article are from before 2023). Now some sources do make this allegation specifically, but not sure why this can't be covered at Second Holocaust? VR _talk 06:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unless I'm missing something, this article is a rehash of the one that was deleted here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alleged Palestinian genocide of Israelis. Pinging all the participants in that discussion: Ping (BilledMammal—Iskandar323—SomethingForDeletion—Marokwitz—JMWt—nableezy—Oaktree b—Daveout—Sj—Zero0000).VR _talk 06:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No - Topic is relevant and notable enough for its own stand alone article. Homerethegreat (talk) 08:16, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/redirect This is a POV fork of Alleged Palestinian genocide of Israelis which after an AfD ended up as a redirect to Second Holocaust. Selfstudier (talk) 12:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second holocaust is per lead: The notion of a "second Holocaust" (Hebrew: השואה השנײה, romanized: HaShoah HaShniyah) or "Another Holocaust" (שואה נוספת, Shoah Nosephet) is an assertion that the Holocaust or a similar event is recurring or will recur. It is often used to discuss real or perceived threats to the State of Israel, the Jewish people, or the Jewish way of life. ------ The Second holocaust article is on the fear of a threat of extermination of the Jewish People or Israel.

This article on it's own is notable enough a topic and has been covered enough to warrant its own standalone article. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is on the allegation of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. It is not on the fear or perceived threat of a second holocaust. It is on the allegation of a genocide committed by Hamas against Israelis in 7/10. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:52, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How is this POV fork? This is a notable topic, the whole section is made up of academic discourse and its on a specific notable event on a point of time as well as government responses. Homerethegreat (talk) 13:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel is obviously a subtopic of Alleged Palestinian genocide of Israelis, which article did not survive AfD. This new article is just an end run around that decision. Selfstudier (talk) 13:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is a POV fork to attempt to get around the deletion of the first article. Oaktree b (talk) 14:14, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Deletion or the moving of this subject to another page is probably useful. Scientelensia (talk) 12:25, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No - The topic meets notability guidelines and is much better served in a dedicated article. This is not a POVFORK; it seems whoever makes this claim has never actually read that policy. POVFORK refers to two articles on the same subject expressing different points of view. The scope of Second holocaust is completely different so the idea this is a POVFORK is absurd. Furthermore, this article is only weakly related to the idea of "second holocaust". Very few reliable sources express the viewpoint that the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel was a "second Holocaust"; the number of victims is of a different order of magnitude. However, many genocide scholars interpret the intentions of the mass killings on October 7 as meeting the legal definition of genocide. Marokwitz (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into more appropriate articles, whichever they might be (e.g. 2023 Israel–Hamas war, 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, etc). The accusation is not notable on its own. If an open letter is all that it takes to declare a genocide then Israel is guilty of genocide as well. The attack was a standard terrorist attack within a standard war. The word genocide has been cheapened lately.

-Daveout(talk) 21:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No - Second Holocaust might need a short section in referring to this as the main article. But it keep separate. This is a strange special case of what the accusation is being used to justify, so keep it stand alone. The only thing it might fit in as a merge is War crimes in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. But I still think this should stay separate. Irtapil (talk) 20:25, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of Neutrality/Bias

There are sections for public and academic discourse, yet this discourse seems only to be in favour of this characterisation of the attacks of ‘genocide’. More needs to be added for the opposite side, as it is quite rare for one series of attacks to be termed a genocide throughout history. In the Palestinian genocide accusation article, both sides of teh argument are at least clearly represented.
No criticism of the characterisation is used in the lede, whereas this is standard and is done in the Palestinian genocide accusation article.
The use of the ‘Antisemitism in Islam’ accusation could potentially be seen as offensive. This conflict does not regard the whole of Islam, rather the 2023 Israel and Palestine/Hamas conflict and so just Palestine. Thus, the Racism in the State of Palestine article and/or the Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war article (seeing as this whole article only concerns the 2023 attacks) are more appropriate to be used, in my opinion.
We need to collaborate to share thoughts and improve this article, which is arguably not yet suitable for consumption (although to me it has the makings of a strong article).

Scientelensia (talk) 12:39, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. A 97.103.129.121 (talk) 09:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a Muslim, I don't care if something is "offensive". What I do care about is these allegations are thrown around without sufficient sourcing. Can anyone provide sources that the Islamic religion motivated a genocide against Israel on October 7? VR _talk 02:28, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Scientelensia (talk) 11:55, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Insufficient context

The context in the article introduces Hamas, yet some text could be devoted to explaining the beginning of the formation of Hamas in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict in general. (e.g. reasons for formation, context within the first Intifada, formed by who?)
This is simply a suggestion, discussion is of course welcome.

Scientelensia (talk) 12:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that context etc can be useful, however lots of content was removed on grounds of SYNTH... Homerethegreat (talk) 11:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323 pinging you since this is relevant discussion. Can you explain why you think lots of content on charter, background and etc should be removed... Homerethegreat (talk) 14:16, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You get relevant context without synth from sources mentioning the subject and mentioning the context. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:19, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Homerethegreat: the material you have re-added largely predates the topic and so is still OR/SYNTH. Since WP:OR is policy and a core content pillar, this is non-negotiable - nothing written on talk can magically make synth permissable. Background sections aren't something editors get to just make up out of thin air. Each source must be directly connected to the subject, which sources that predate the event this page refers to clearly do not - not least direly dated material from 1992. Please clean up your own mess here. Violating core policies in a contentious topic area is fairly disruptive, and more so when repeated. I would prefer not to have to waste my time escalating this. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Iskandar, I don't think its the case. You can see there is content and sources including experts that also directly connect (therefore not synth or OR). For example Bruce Hoffman, Dr. Hilly Moodrick-Even Khen... Homerethegreat (talk) 09:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even more information was removed... Also relevant information that is sourced... Homerethegreat (talk) 08:34, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Synthesis and other templates

I've added several templates to the article. Here are my justifications [1] [2] [3]. This article has serious problems. It apports few useful informational value, and basically only serves to create a WP:FALSEBALANCE situation with articles like Palestinian genocide accusation. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 16:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is scholarship and sources on the issue. Regarding false balance, I hardly think there is need to compare the article to Palestinian genocide accusation. This article is modeled on the allegations of genocide against Ukraine. Regarding synth, go to the discussion above and see that on the contrary, there is a feeling there there is insufficient context. Homerethegreat (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article on Ukraine is much more serious, with an international investigation ongoing if I understood correctly, the whole article is simply more developed and opinions of scholars are not simply listed but complemented into a coherent text with a point. About synthesis, it is clear it is a present worry of several users so I recommend leaving the template some time now that the AfD has closed. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are serious sources for the article. There does not seem to be an issue of WP:SYNTH here, see the discussion above. Dovidroth (talk) 08:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 December 2023

It has been proposed in this section that Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel be renamed and moved to Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel → Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war – For a broader article scope (possibly still include the year if this is an issue, i.e. Allegations of genocide during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war). GnocchiFan (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Israel and Hamas have been at war for a looong time.

Kire1975 (talk) 23:16, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. "Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war" would be a very different page with a much broader scope. Perhaps one can just create such new page, where this page covering only the attack by Hamas would be a sub-page. My very best wishes (talk) 00:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support anything other than the current POV-pushing mash-up. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 19:18, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose We already had a merge request with another article and lots of reasons were presented there regarding notability and GNG and I think they also apply here. Homerethegreat (talk) 20:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose that would fundamentally change the scope of the article, overstepping the complimentary Israeli article. Yeoutie (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]