Talk:Diocletianic Persecution

Skepticism

It is really hard to believe that the ultimate cause for the persecution was a religious one, taking into account that there was no other religious persecution during 600 years of Rome history. E.g, all the persecutions against jews had a political reason, namely the dominion over Palestina, so there was no war against jews, but against a rebel province.

I don't remember where now, so I cannot be sure, I have read that the ultimate reason was an economical one, concerning taxes. Maybe somebody could clarify this or explain what religious reasons really caused the persecutions.

It is stupid to think that one day Diocletian said: "well, I don't like the colour of that limber, I will kill 3.000 christians, therefore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.57.146.182 (talk • contribs) 14:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Manichaeans

It's not that Diocletian didn't persecute Manichaeans—he did—it's just that he didn't persecute them during the period following February 24 303. In any case, mention of the persecutions of Manichaeans should probably be dropped in somewhere in the first body paragraph, beside the description of Diocletian compelling Christians in the army to sacrifice. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 09:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 16:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Diocletianic Persecution → Great Persecution —

1. Almost everyone Everyone calls it this: Check the CAH XII p.647, or Williams, p.173, or Corcoran, Empire of the Tetrarchs, p.6, Barnes' Sossianus Hierocles and the Antecedents of the "Great Persecution" or Rees' Diocletian and the Tetrarchy; even when people disapprove of whatever implicit suggestions they see in the term, they still use it. They just put "scare quotes" around it (see Rees, Corcoran, Barnes). There is no other generally-accepted term for this concept; "Diocletianic Persecution" is a neologism.
2. The persecution was not Diocletian's alone. The traditional (Lactantian) narrative has it that Galerius pressured D into the persecution. Furthermore, when treating with Diocletian's persecution, one usually also treats with Licinius' persecution, which would, again, make these persecutions not solely "Diocletianic". Also: Diocletian persecuted the Manichees, but that's usually considered separately, or simply as an antecedent of this, the "Great" persecution.

Hence:

1. Almost no one No one uses the term "Diocletianic Persecution" to define the matter for study.
2. Not all of Diocletian's persecutions are covered by the subject matter of the "Great Persecution" as traditionally defined.
3. Not all persecutions covered by the subject matter of the "Great Persecution" as traditionally defined are strictly 'Diocletianic'.

Therefore:

4. I'd like to move the page. I'd do it by fiat but the content (read: redirect) on "Great Persecution" prevents me from doing so. — Geuiwogbil (Talk) 16:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Survey

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Discussion

Any additional comments:

Not a neologism; see here for "Veturius" and the Beginnings of the Diocletianic Persecution. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Aye, I was about to correct myself here. You notice, though, that the term "Great Persecution" is still far more common. Compare: Diocletianic persecution (87) and "Great Persecution" Diocletian (429). Geuiwogbil (Talk) 20:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Even Woods himself uses the term elsewhere: [1] and [2].Geuiwogbil (Talk) 20:13, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not unsympathetic, and I note that Peter Brown, doctor clarissimus, uses the term. The questions are whether Great Persecution is POV, which is probably quibbling, and whether it is genuinely ambiguous. Some of the 1010 uses of "Great Persecution" without Dicletian mean something else, most obviously the Restoration persecution of Presbyterianism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

If it were the case (and I'm willing to accept it if it is, although it would surprise me), then shouldn't "Great Persecution" be a disambiguation, and not a redirect? We obviously don't have an article on Presbyterianism/Dissenters/Puritanism in England (1660–1688) or Restoration persecution of Presbyterians/Dissenters/Puritans, which would be suitable targets for that disambiguation, though. (Are we in the habit of making disambiguation pages for not-yet-existent pages? Also interesting to note: Although Restoration is a disambiguation page, The Restoration redirects to English Restoration, and not, you know, Bourbon Restoration) Hmm. I'm less sure on this than I was before. It's still not an entirely Diocletianic Persecution, whatever other "Great" Persecutions there might be. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 23:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• On your note: Many uses of The Restoration are from such pages as Confederate Ireland. I'm not going to type English Restoration there, thank you; I have some sense of self-preservation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
  • LOL Geuiwogbil (Talk) 19:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.