Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Letterkenny Shopping Centre (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Letterkenny. Black Kite (talk) 02:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Letterkenny Shopping Centre

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Non-notable 57-store, 102,000 sf shopping centre, which lacks non-run-of-the-mill, substantial, RS coverage. Epeefleche (talk) 04:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Letterkenny. You should expect more working sources on an article that survived two earlier nominations. Shopping Mall itself is also not very convincing in notability. Night of the Big Wind _talk 13:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First -- that is a mis-statement. It did not "survive... two earlier nominations". It was deleted at one of them. Second -- are you again following me around the Project? And, in doing so, confronting my comment here with a statement that is not true?--Epeefleche (talk) 00:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know it is not illegal to comment on a deletion nomination. Assume good faith, Eppie. Night of the Big Wind _talk 03:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By itself, no. But AGF is a rebuttable presumption. For further background re this pattern, which leads to this question, see here. And you haven't responded to my questions.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Merge - Article meets WP:N. It would help if the nominator actually read the article or explained why the references fail WP:N. I wouldn't call coverage in two independent national newspapers as not meeting WP:N. --HighKing (talk) 16:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep- States in AfD the article "lacks non-run-of-the-mill, substantial, RS coverage" Sunday Bussiness POst and the Indo, are RS.Murry1975 (talk) 19:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The sources amount to routine mentions of the existence of the place. DGG ( talk ) 22:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC) .[reply]

Um....no they don't. They mention a significant overhaul and expansion as part of a relaunch. Granted, not the most exciting news... --HighKing (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with DGG that such references are routine. Overhaul and expansion of a 57-store, 102,000 sf mall.

Furthermore, WP:NPLACE indicates: "Very small malls ... are generally deleted." From what I have seen at our mall AfDs, and from what I have been told by two sysops who are active in that area, a 102,000 sf mall falls within what NPLACE refers to as a very small mall.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that these things have guidelines but size is relative. What conts as samll and not notible in the US isnt necessarily the same in other countries and common sense should be used.Murry1975 (talk) 10:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hear your point. But what was communicated to me by one sysop was that the dividing line was 1 million sf, and the other sysop said he believed it was 500,000 sf. This mall is far below both those cut-offs, at 102,000 sf, and in fact one of the smallest size malls I've seen reflected on the Project.

Those weren't US-specific guidelines. And ~~Canada~~ Ireland is one of the 40 120 largest countries in the world (out of 242) -- Tuvalu, it ain't.

Recent AfDs involving Canadian malls include AFD Stonegate Shopping Centre (432,000 sf mall; deleted February 20) and Abbottsfield Mall (186,000 sf mall; deleted February 15). Recent AfDs involving Australian malls include Rosebud Plaza (100,000 sf mall; deleted February 12) and Wagga Wagga Marketplace (21,000 sm mall; kept February 12).--Epeefleche (talk) 10:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What are you on about Canada for?Murry1975 (talk) 10:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're right -- revised. Canada and Australia are the examples, as they are the 2 non-US countries with the most recent mall AfDs as to which there is square footage info.--Epeefleche (talk) 10:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well done you have just read where the article is about even though you nominated it.Murry1975 (talk) 11:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. You wrote: "what counts as small and notable in the US isnt necessarily the same in other countries". Looking to address your concern that we look at standards for non-US malls, I checked our most recent non-US AfDs that mention square footage. The first such non-US malls I first found were Canadian. I didn't find Irish malls at the most recent AfDs that I checked, but I've included the most recent other non-US malls, which are Australian.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And I note that size matters Wagga Wagga Marketplace is still there a fifth of the size, with a poplulation of 22million. Ratio population to size 22m:4.5m I think this shows common sense both when to keep an article and when to nominate one.Murry1975 (talk) 11:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that size is relative. The WP:NPLACE essay uses "relative" terms and doesn't specifiy a cutoff. It's helpful, but altogether too general for many articles, and incorrect to lead editors to believe that size trumps WP:N policy. If an article meets WP:N, it is notable. Start there. While there's seemingly nothing extraordinary about this centre from an international point of view, it is a well-known local landmark. And more importantly it has had coverage in two national newspapers and that's why I've !voted to keep. Barely. That, and the fact that it is the largest shopping centre in the county. On it's own, that fact is sufficiently notable. --HighKing (talk) 17:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi High. A couple of points. First, just so its clear in the event you were wondering, I don't have any personal strong views as to specifically what the notability criteria should be for malls. I am trying to apply what I understand to be our rules and conventions, evenly, however.

As to the specifics here, Ireland has 34 counties.[1] I'm not sure I agree that the largest mall in each of those 34 counties -- even if it is as small as this one -- should under our criteria have a wp article. I think that that sort of approach would suggest that we have thousands (say, 8,000?) malls that qualify for articles on wp -- even those that are 50-odd stores large, with 100,000 sf of space, as is this one. I don't believe that is in keeping with what I've seen (feel free to take a look at the mall AfD archives yourself to check me), or what has been communicated to me by the sysops. I do, however, see how if we had a mall this size in, say the Marshall Islands, that the "size is relative" argument would have much to support it.

Then again, reasonable people can disagree on this, and I expect that editors who are more Ireland-focused and less mall-AfD-focused (if that is the case ... I don't know) will be more likely to see things differently. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reasonable and knowledgable people know that there are only 26 (historical) Counties in the Republic plus six in Northern-Ireland. Night of the Big Wind _talk 03:00, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BEFORE isnt being conducted either in nomination of article or even in research to show points. The local government article if read would show how many admin counties there are, as opposed to traditional counties, Epeefleche it still aint 34. Nominator is failing to use Wiki guidelines and having a a disruptive effect on the project.Murry1975 (talk) 09:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.