Are Ohio State’s safeties on the verge of achieving an elusive goal? Buckeye Talk podcast

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The 2024 season is right around the corner as Ohio State enters a pivotal year of the Ryan Day era.

It’s the perfect time to set a tone and discuss what Day has accomplished as head coach, using that to project what the future holds, especially in a season where OSU has clearly pushed all its chips into the middle of the table. In doing so, we at Buckeye Talk will spend the next two weeks breaking down the program position by position looking at its past, present and future under Day.

Up next, Stephen Means and Andrew Gillis discuss the safeties as Matt Guerrieri tasks over the position.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:00.845)

Which is true like in the time like you just commit third and other programs were selling Dorian on this idea of Do you really want to be third in the hierarchy and no matter how many times Tim told him that’s not true?

Stephen Means (00:20.193)

We’ve reached the end here, Andrew, of our two week long State of the Program reset.

Dig deep, position by position, evaluation of the Ohio State football program in the Ryan Day era. We’ve been looking at it through three lenses, the past, the present, and the future. The past being 2019 through 2023, the present being obviously what’s about to take place here during the 2024 season. And then the future is literally what’s going on on the recruiting trail, the young guys on the roster, and beyond.

looking at things from that perspective. think it’s been a fun week of potting. Honestly, it’s been long. Well, some of these pods have been long. Some of them have been a little shorter. This tight end one was on the shorter end. But some of them have been almost two hours. But I think it’s been a good reset, partially because we’re in a pivotal moment in the Ryan Day era. But also, Andrew, you’re only a year into this. So I think it was also just a good exercise for you to get a chance to really look at the Ohio State program from every angle as a guy who

still kind of on the outside looking in even as a media member.

Andrew (01:24.78)

Yeah, well, mean, like, what’s that quote where it’s just like, how are going to get to where you want to go if you don’t know where you’ve been or something like that? Like, I think it was a nice little exercise. I think the defense has been far more interesting for me than the offense. Right. I feel like the D the offense, it’s like, all right, man, they got great quarterbacks. Congratulations. Like, and I understand this the most important position is just we talk about them so much. And then running back, it’s like, well, they got a new coach. They got great running backs this year, but we’ll see how much the running backs really matter. And this and that, the other receivers, same thing.

With defense, what we’re about to do, it’s a star -driven thing, but it’s also like they’re turning it around and there’s a lot more intrigue, I think, about the defensive side of the ball. And especially for the position that we’re doing today, there’s more drama when things are really good or really bad. I think we’ve seen some of the really good and now we’re about to see the other side

Stephen Means (01:55.349)

It’s a story.

Stephen Means (02:20.333)

So as you mentioned, we did all offense last week, quarterback on Monday. Tuesday was running back Wednesday, wide receiver Thursday, tied in offensive line wrapped up last week. And then this week, as you’ve already heard, Monday was defensive line. Tuesday was linebackers. Yesterday was corners. And now we’re going to get into the safeties, which they’ve had a few safeties coaches, Andrew, since Ryan Day took over the program. Obviously Jeff Hathley was just running the defensive backroom as a whole back in 2019 when

came as a defensive coordinator, also Matt Barnes was the special teams coordinator, but I think he also had an assistant defensive back.

coach as part of his job title. So he was also in that room when Jeff out half way left. Matt Barnes has kind of stayed in that role in 2020 while Kerry Combs came in and took over the defensive back room, which is both cornerbacks and safeties. And then they kind of transitioned and started to split that up a little bit. Kerry Combs got to where Jim Noles is right now a little bit where he’s more of the overseer defensive coordinator. Matt Barnes is running the safety room a little bit more. I think they hired Parker Fleming.

as the special teams coordinator. believe that was 2021. I might have my years mistaken, but obviously three games, two games into that season, Kerry Combs loses play calling ability and Matthew, Matt Barnes is now the pseudo defensive coordinator in this like weird thing where Ryan Day didn’t fire Kerry Combs, but he demoted him. And so was, it was kind of the beginning of the end of that situation. And 2022, Ryan Day completely resets the entire defensive coaching staff with Larry Johnson being the only guy.

who survived that, which we got into that on the Monday pod. Larry Johnson has survived two resets of the defensive coaching staff since Ryan Day took over. He survived the one when Ryan Day first took over the head coach in 2019 as the only holdover on defense from the Urban Meyer staff. And obviously after the 21 season, he survives that one.

Stephen Means (04:16.109)

Tim Walton comes in, he runs the cornerbacks. Perry Eliano, fresh off of Dorp Award winner Kobe Bryant and top five NFL draft pick Saul Skardner. He comes in to run the safety room. And I thought it was quality for at least 2022. Now things kind of fell apart there at the end. Obviously people remember the Latham ransom falling down.

in the Peach Bowl. That was a pivotal moment, but I thought they took strides brings Perry Eliano back in 2023. The room takes more strides. Josh Proctor is the best version of Josh Proctor we’ve seen ever in the six years that he’d been here. Lathan Ransom continues to emerge in year two because he had a quality 2022 outside of that moment. And then he built down that in 2023. But obviously the recruiting on the safety end wasn’t as great. You miss out on.

KJ Bolden in the 2024 class. You miss out on Caleb Downs in the 2023 class. But you put together some decent classes, but nothing great. Perry Eliano not retained. And so now Matt Guerrero is running that room as a guy who’s been following Jim Knowles around for a while. Now, Matt Guerrero was actually a GA here during 2022. And then left to go be Indiana’s defensive coordinator in 2023. And now he’s back in 2024.

From a safety perspective though, Andrew, as much as there’s been turnaround with the coaches, there’s also just been weird stuff with the players, right? As they’ve gone through different schemes. Jordan Fuller, I think is still the best safety who has played in a football game for Ohio State in the Ryan Day era. And I put that played in a football game because Caleb has not played in a football game, even though on college football 25, he’s the best player on Ohio State’s roster. He has not played in a football game.

over that spot once August 31st hit but for right now Jordan Fuller when they were playing that single high safety he was the only safety on the field he was the best safety and he played at such a high level that when Ryan Day tried to run that scheme back the following year Josh Proctor and Marcus Hooker kind of both had that spot at times and then in 2021 Josh Proctor has the job flashes against Minnesota breaks his leg against Oregon so now you’re throwing Bryson Shaw out there and what ended up being

Stephen Means (06:29.229)

I don’t think fans were not happy with the play of Bryson Shaw. I think that’s the right way to put it. That’s a lot. just threw at you there how we got from George. It’s almost like the cornerback story all over again when things were elite in 2019 fell off a bridge. And as we started to get closer and closer to where we are right now, things got worse before they got better, but they did eventually get better.

Andrew (06:55.552)

Yeah, this is one of the more fascinating exercises because I understand that we’re not evaluating sometimes NFL players, but I do think it is sometimes indicative of how the next level views you, right? And kind of the talent level. And you mentioned it, Jordan Fuller, know, six -round pick, he’s still in the league. You know, he was obviously a very, very good safety for Ohio State. First team all.

Stephen Means (07:21.377)

He was a captain for a Super Bowl winning team.

Andrew (07:23.662)

Yeah, like he first team all big 10 second team all big 10 like he he had a you know, a really solid run where you know, I believe he had an injury plagued year where he was out for one year but he’s pretty much been a starter for like three of the four years. And now he’s a now he’s a member of the Panthers and hey, look, that’s a great player and frankly, somebody who when he went to pick 199, you kind of look at his career.

maybe he was a steal for the Rams. But it doesn’t necessarily match up with the rest of the roster, right? Like in that 2019 team that Fuller was a part of, you you had a linebacker go higher, you had a defensive lineman go higher, and Davon Hamilton, you had another defensive lineman go higher, Chase Young, you had two corners go higher. Then you get to 21, no safeties were drafted. Then you get to 22, no safeties were drafted. Then you get to 23.

no safeties were drafted. Then he gets a 24 and it’s like, okay, ransom would have been drafted had he entered, but no safeties were drafted. So Ohio State has not had a safety drafted since Jordan Fuller.

Stephen Means (08:28.971)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (08:32.705)

Yeah.

Andrew (08:39.154)

Ohio State has not had a safety drafted since the NFL draft that saw Chase Young go and Joe Burrow and Tua and Justin Herbert and Henry Ruggs and Jerry Judy and C .D. Yeah, Justin Jefferson was in this draft and like that is the length of time that we’ve gone that Ohio State has not had a safety drafted. Now I understand

Stephen Means (08:50.677)

Guys who are now on second contracts.

Andrew (09:03.714)

You know, you want to make that argument. well, sometimes NFL draft picks are not always indicative of college careers or NFL careers. I always, I understand that, but it is a, I think a very fair barometer to look at and say like, well, I would say just hasn’t had great safety play or maybe even like good safety play for that stretch. I know we’ve kind of been talking about this unit as, is this unit championship quality? Is this unit championship quality? That’s kind of the point of this entire thing.

It’s not even a question that the safety room has not been championship quality over these last couple of years. Now we get to the present. That’s a whole other conversation. You know, we get to kind of the present and probably even the future as we talk about this for the last two thirds of this pod. But the first third of this pod is not going to be pretty for Ohio State’s safety room. just they haven’t had a playmaker. And I’m not saying that you need to be the best.

safety, you should obviously strive for this. I’m not saying that you need to have the best safeties in the country and the best corners in the country and the best linebackers in the country and the best defensive linemen in the country. And if you don’t, that that’s a failure. But there’s got to be a limit to this, right? There’s got to be a limit to just like, hey, if you’re an average safety at Ohio State, you’re going to get drafted because you’re playing on a really good team and you know, you people are going to view you all this guy was a, you know, a top 80 overall recruit and he’s got the talent, he’s got the background, he’s got the pedigree. They

They just haven’t done that. It’s kind of remarkable. And I think that this was kind one of the more eye -opening things for me. I obviously looked this up last summer. This was one of the things that I looked up was kind of trends of where the roster was trending. I think that that’s an interesting kind of way to evaluate things and how is a room viewed now versus how was it viewed five years ago versus three years ago versus one year ago. The safety room has just not been good. From 2019,

2020, 21, 22, 23, it’s just, it started to get better in 23, but there was just a really, really long gap of really poor play there.

Stephen Means (11:10.133)

You mentioned the draft part of this and yes, there are situations where not every position is weighted equally in a draft perspective, right? We’re not gauging Ohio State’s wide receivers, whether or not they get drafted or gauging whether or not they’re fresh round picks.

Andrew (11:25.454)

And especially with safety, like safety, think of it like running back. Yeah, like when Caleb’s downs goes 14th in the 2026 NFL draft, people are going to look at it be like, what are you talking about? This guy’s the number one overall place. This is guys the best player in college football. Well, they play safety and that’s a position that’s currently being devalued. So keep that in mind, but no, yeah.

Stephen Means (11:38.613)

Yeah, see, I’m not gonna say it’s gonna be devalued. think it just depends on your defensive scheme. Safety is such running back is clearly being devalued by everybody. Safety, I just think it depends on the year, right? There might be some years where it’s like two or three safeties who get drafted in the first round, then there might be years

Andrew (11:50.092)

Of course.

Stephen Means (11:59.117)

We get through the first 50 picks and no one gets picked. think it’s just what do teams need on a given year? How many people are running a scheme when they need multiple safeties? But still.

Andrew (12:09.166)

I mean, the first safety drafted this year was 47th overall.

Stephen Means (12:12.863)

Right, but also, but then there’s been, you there’s been some years where the safety is going first round. Right. So it’s like, you know, if you’re a

Andrew (12:17.644)

I mean, yeah, I remember the year Kyle Hamilton went early. like, but that’s the thing, you need to be that level of safety. And the year before, Brian Branch, a really good safety at Alabama, 45th. Like, safeties don’t typically go high unless you are an elite level safety.

Stephen Means (12:24.831)

No, yeah, but

Stephen Means (12:31.853)

No, no, no. It’s not a first round conversation because safety do start flying off the board on day two. That does. That’s a true statement. And then early on day three, they start flying off the board. It’s the fact that there have not been NFL caliber safeties at all, regardless of drafted or not. Like Jordan Fuller is outplayed being a six round draft pick when he’s been healthy. I think that’s fair to say there have not. If you look at Ohio State’s death charge through the year before Lathan Ransom emerged in 2022,

Andrew (12:37.112)

Say, yeah, day two and three,

Stephen Means (13:00.141)

There was not a single safety that you would look at and go, oh, that guy’s going to get drafted one day. And that’s without the NFL having to officially tell us that you could just look at the talent and say that wasn’t the case. And then when Josh Proctor missed the tackle against Notre Dame, and so he got pulled, Lathan Ransom took the opportunity and ran with it. like, okay, Lathan Ransom looks like he’s going get drafted one day. And you’re right. Lathan Ransom is going to end this drought for Ohio State come 2025 April. He would have probably ended it this year had he decided to go pro, but

kudos to Ohio State. He’s another piece of this puzzle who came back for this defense.

High moments, Jordan Fuller. Low moments, I think Josh Proctor is both a high and a low moment for Ohio State and what his six year career was. And we’re going to talk about Fahim Delaney when we get to the future of this, the top 50 recruit in the 2025 class. Fahim, I believe, is the first top 100 safety recruit. Ohio State has landed who wasn’t in its backyard. So this is excluding Sonny Stiles because Sonny Stiles is from Pickleton, but also he’s a linebacker

since Josh Proctor in 2018. It’s the last time they landed one. And Josh Proctor’s Ohio State career is, it’s such a weird thing to talk about, because he’s never what you expected, both in the best way and in the worst way.

I think people saw him as a top 100 recruit, the first player Ohio State ever learned it from Oklahoma back in 2018. Obviously Nate Robbins has joined that list now, but was like, oh, he’s got some upside. And you would hear people throwing around their name Malik Hooker, just because he was rangy and seemed like a guy who could wreak some havoc back there in the back end. And then 2019.

Stephen Means (14:44.653)

As a second year guy, second string safety, you got to see flashes of it, whether that was the pick he had early in the year, the hit he had in the Big Ten Championship game in 2019, you just saw flashes of it. And then in 2020, it was just really weird, right? You thought he was going to be your starting safety and then he wasn’t your starting safety. They were moving them all over the place. Eventually he was your starting single high safety. He flashed in the Big Ten Championship game. And then in 2021,

just when you thought it was ready to click, he breaks his leg. And so he loses an entire year. And then in 2022, just when you thought it was ready to click, he misses a tackle and gets pulled and now he’s a special teams player. And so for whatever, and then we’re all out. We’re all coming out on Josh Proctor. Maybe the moment has passed. And then here comes Lil Low, Andrew Gillis. Lil Low, you nothing at all. Been on the beat for a week and a half. And he goes.

Andrew (15:29.942)

I was gonna bring this up, I was hoping you were gonna say this.

Stephen Means (15:38.701)

I like this guy Josh Proctor and everybody our texters, six one four three, six one four three five oh three three one five two weeks free trial three 99 for that. The texture, myself, Nathan we were all like listen.

Andrew (15:42.051)

I got flamed. our subtexters were not happy with me when I said that.

Andrew (15:49.919)

they let me know.

Stephen Means (15:55.181)

You must be new here. We’ve all been down that road. And listen, I think you can feel validated in that hunch was Josh Proctor, an all American. No, but was he an all big 10 level player? No. Was he the best player on his defense? No, but he had some moments that flat and he was a quality player on this defense.

Andrew (16:01.452)

Andrew (16:13.838)

What I think we talked about, like I think the conversation that we were having was like ranked the 15 most important players on the defense. No, I had no, it was not eight. I would have to go back and listen, but I remember I think it was like 11th or 12th. Like it was like I had him back there and I was like, look, man, he’s like a 60 year player. Like I watched a little bit of the film. Obviously, I had watched some previous games like whatever I could on YouTube, which I mean, like it was kind of frustrating trying to find.

Stephen Means (16:19.671)

and you had him like eighth.

What was my day?

Andrew (16:41.678)

some games because you can’t always see like the safeties where they line up and everything. But I watched some of the games that I remember just kind of thinking like, you know what, this guy’s a 60 year player. Like he’s got, you know, a veteran side of him. I just I think as a starter, I think he deserves it. I said it and Stephen and Nathan started laughing. And when I said something either really smart or really dumb and what the funny thing was, I was like, oh, man, I feel so bad about it. And Nathan and Stephen were like, dude, don’t feel bad about

What if it turns out and hey look, he was a really solid player for him this year. I guess last

Stephen Means (17:13.739)

Yeah, listen, you just got part of this job. You just got to be confident in your convictions. Because you’re going to be wrong and people live to tell us that we’re wrong. And sometimes you’re going to be right. But the goal is to make an educated conviction. And you made an uneducated conviction. And sometimes those work out, too. And it worked out in your favor. Uneducated convictions. That’s what I talk in a nutshell right

Andrew (17:19.628)

Yeah, exactly.

Andrew (17:23.874)

We’re all wrong, yeah.

Stephen Means (17:39.295)

Speaking of nutshells, that’s another person we’re going to get into later on in this pod because he’s got a commitment date coming up soon, but we’ll talk about that in the future. That’s continuing our list. What are the past five years tell us about what are realistic expectations for Ohio State safety room going forward?

Andrew (17:58.636)

Yeah, this is one of the tougher questions to answer because I think so much has changed with Ohio State’s room. you know, where I think, you know, with like receiver or quarterback, it’s, you know, they should be recruiting at an elite level at a, you know, at a, you know, one of the best levels in the country. And that’s totally fair. I think when it comes to, you know, linebacker, I think even, you know, it’s, Hey, the last five years haven’t really taught us much, but James Lauren Itis is here now. And with safety.

There’s, it’s an interesting conversation because the last five years to me, like if you were to take one lesson from it, it’s that’s the floor. Like that’s, that’s the bare minimum. You’re scraping the bottom of the ocean. What is the next level? What is the next frontier, if you will, of, of Ohio State safety recruiting? And, and I think that you have kind of learned, okay, this is how you manage without.

you know, without safety, like without elite safety recruiting, which like kind of, kind of like, it’s funny to think about now because they have Caleb Downs and we’re going to talk about this room in a couple of minutes. But you have seven right now in the room, Ransom, Nelson, Bonsu, Downs, Hartford, McClain and Roker. And like, if you didn’t have Caleb Downs, I think we would be talking about this room in a lot different light. And we would be, we would be talking about this room going

This is what the last five years give you, right? They give you problems. They give you needing leaps of faith where at Ohio State, you’re always gonna need players to step forward, but you’re not gonna need players to step forward like maybe some other programs do, right? Like if you’re at Wisconsin, sometimes you’re probably looking at your roster going, we need this corner to play well because we don’t really have anybody else.

You know, this guy’s not ready and this guy’s definitely not going be ready. At Ohio State, you need leaps forward. You know, like next year, they’re going to need leaps forward from the offensive line. And I guess maybe that is maybe a need. at, you know, receiver, you know, you need Carnell Tate. You know, you need Jeremiah Smith. You don’t need them because you’ve got you’ve been recruiting at that level. Whereas at safety, there’s been a really pronounced kind of need at safety if you didn’t have down.

Andrew (20:26.07)

I think that that’s where I kind of land on this. The last five years have taught you that, you know, it’s really, really difficult to get out of a jam and you kind of got to get out of jail free card with Caleb Downs. And otherwise, I think you might be in a little bit more of a precarious situation. So you can’t let that happen again. And I think that that’s probably the number one lesson is that if you have a run of bad recruiting, hey, look, Lathan Ransom would be great,

we’d be talking about the 2024 and 20, the 2024 safety room would probably be fine. We’d be talking about the 2025 and 20, maybe even 2026 safety room is like, uh -oh, like there could be some serious problems on the horizon here. It’s trouble ahead. And I think that that’s kind of what that’s taught you is that there’s a floor for this. And this is kind of a, an alternate history where Nick Saban doesn’t retire

Caleb Downs decides at the last second that he wants to stay at Alabama and see it out. There’s a lot of different ways that this can go. Ohio State, let’s call it what it is, they got lucky and Nick Saban retired. Because if Nick Saban didn’t retire, Caleb Downs is not on the roster. yeah, think you have seen the other side of what this could be.

Stephen Means (21:46.701)

I think some of that in terms of 24 depends on what you think of Molly Hartford and And also I think yes sure Nick Saban doesn’t retire Caleb Downs isn’t here, but I also think there have been some good Things that I’ve come from out of the spring to where I mean your upsides not gonna be What it would have been with Caleb Downs obviously and I’m not gonna sit here and say oh they’d be just as good if they didn’t have Caleb Downs in 2025, but I do think

Andrew (21:51.99)

Yeah, and that’s a fair point.

Stephen Means (22:16.109)

I want to push back on this. I don’t think it would been dire. I think it doesn’t go from elite to dire. There’s a middle ground there that I think they would have been. Simply because I think Lee Carpenter, he would have been a starter this year. And Bonsu’s like, the early returns on Bonsu are pretty high. And those two would have just been your starting safeties in 2025 if you projected this out. for me, to the Caleb Downs point, I’m going to say this here because I want to talk more football. And when we get to the present.

Andrew (22:23.212)

Yeah, well, and but right now you have Malik Hartford as a third guy and Bonsu’s four,

Andrew (22:32.811)

Yeah, exactly.

Stephen Means (22:45.581)

Caleb Downs means to Ryan Day’s program as a transfer, what Von Bell meant to Urban Meyer as a recruit. It’s just, you go ask Urban Meyer, the most important commitment he ever earned was Von Miller in that 2013 class. He was the number 26 player and the second best safety and a kid from Georgia where the pitch was literally like, dude, we need players like you from this area so we can beat the schools from this area. And Von Bell signed up for that.

Andrew (22:51.223)

Interesting.

Stephen Means (23:10.987)

And it set the stage for what Ohio State’s recruiting was under Urban Meyer going forward. And this is a new era from a recruiting standpoint. I think we’ve had that conversation. In fact, we did that exact pot at one point, Andrew, who’s the most important commitments of the Ryan Day era. But when you’re about safety, I mean, excuse me, when you’re talking about the transfer portal, I mean, it’s. It’s either Downs or Justin Fields. And both of them, an interesting situation because you’ve got both of them.

their second year college football from the SEC. So you’re going to get two years of them. But in the argument for fields as he plays quarterback and Ryan needed a quarterback and he’s a quarterback guy, right? The argument for downs is downs is established already. Justin Fields wasn’t established. You thought based off of his recruiting ranking, he was going to be what he ended up turning into.

It’s no thinking with Caleb Downs anymore. He lived up to all that five star recruiting ranking stuff very quickly at Alabama. So it’s a little bit more established. So it’s, it’s between those two, but he, don’t think Justin Fields isn’t portal era. That’s the other part of this because he still is from the era where he had to like get the waiver to be able to play right away because he wasn’t a graduate transfer.

I have more questions than answers. That’s what the last five years have told me about Ohio State safety situation. I think there’s some bright stuff going on with the future in terms of guys on the roster now and guys in the recruiting class. And of course we’ll get into all that, but it’s like, they haven’t been able to figure it out, man. It’s, the offensive line of the defense in terms of everything’s great, but one little tug on the string and it can all fall apart.

That quickly, it feels like. And that’s literally what happened with the safety room back after Jordan Fuller left and Josh Proctor got hurt. That’s literally what happened with the offensive line. Right. Last year, it really fell apart when you got to the Missouri game. But it’s just it’s unstable. And

Stephen Means (25:15.533)

I think if you’re a fan, you want that room to get to a place of stability. does Matt Guerrero, as we’ll transition here into that conversation after the break, is he the guy that Ryan Day, well, Ryan Day clearly thinks he’s the guy who can do it, but can he actually do it? Can he be the guy that brings stability to that room? Because Caleb Downs is great. He’s got 24 months left through college football. Nathan Ransom’s gonna be great. He’s got nine months left of college football.

There’s a development that needs to happen in the background. There’s some recruiting that needs to happen still and some consistent recruiting. You can’t have one top 100 safety recruit every six years. And so let’s take a break there and we can get into some of the positive things that could come from this season, but also just kind of break down what the room looks like right now where we know kind of what the hierarchy is. It’s kind of similar to the cornerback situation, but how things could look in 2024 when we come back from the break here on Bunker Talk.

Stephen Means (26:14.103)

We’re talking safeties as we wrap up our State of the Program series here. I’m Stephen Means, that’s Andrew. Gillis, I think this has been a good way to just evaluate the entire roster from the outside, from the inside, from the side, everything, every way you wanna look at it. I don’t know if that made sense, but I said it.

So here’s my three deep for the safety spot. Andrew, you can agree or you can disagree. Your starters, Caleb Downs and Lathan Ransom, obviously they call the safeties here adjusters and bandits. That’s just free safety and strong safety.

Your second string guys Malik Hartford and Jayden Bonsu and then your third string guys in a room that’s kind of short on talent. Kenan Nelson is probably somewhere in that second string mix as well. He’s in the mix, the South Carolina transfer. He’s in the running there depending on whether or not they want to play him at the too high safety spot or maybe.

We didn’t bring him up in the cornerback situation yesterday, Andrew, but maybe he’s the guy in terms of if Jordan Hancock goes down, who’s the nickel safety? Maybe Kenan Nelson ends up taking that role. So we have to mention him as well. And then you got, but the two high safety situation, your threes.

Jaylen McClain and Leroy Roker as the two true freshmen. Caleb Downs is the best safety in America. Lathan Ransom is one of the maybe five best safeties and at least a big 10. Malik Hartford, he flashed some things when he first got to campus. There are some people in the program who were really high on his potential. I Jayden Bonsu, who just went through his first spring, because he didn’t early enroll last year, he’s flashed some things that maybe he’s got some, high ceiling there. And then Jaylen McClain has also flashed a lot.

Stephen Means (27:45.855)

in the spring, even in the spring game when he had the pick six where the press were kind of hating on him and tried to mold a whistle dead and defense said, no, we’re going to celebrate this because this is a pick six. And then Leroy Roker, who just showed up here, the lower rated guy in the twenty twenty four class, who just showed up here this summer. Top to bottom, Andrew, because I don’t the top is obviously championship caliber. Right. But is the depth. Are you confident in the depth of this room in

There’s options if things happen and guys have to play.

Andrew (28:22.57)

Yeah, I think so. Because I think you like you said, I think you kind of have to maybe put Hancock in this mold, too. Like if Lathan Ransom needs a week or two or is out for a game or whatever, is Hancock the guy that slides back? And now all of sudden it’s Hancock and downs and then all of sudden you feel more comfortable with your main Matthews as your as your other corner or or whatever the situation might be. You know, is

Is that something that Ohio State can do? I think that you kind of have to include him as maybe like a tweener. But you Caleb Downs, he’s one of the best players in college football, not just best safety, he’s one of the best players in college football. He’s on your starting unit along with Lathan Ransom. That’s a great one -two punch, maybe the best one -two punch in safety in college football. Then you have those two. And then this is where this gets important. Malik Hartford is your three and Jaden Bonsu is your four.

At least that’s the way it’s kind of shaping up right now. And that’s a heck of a lot better than Malik Hartford being the starting lineup, Bonsu being your three, and then Kenan Nelson being your four. know, Jayla McClain being your four. that’s it. It just kind of pushed everybody down the lineup. Basically the Downs edition.

Stephen Means (29:45.951)

It’s stable. It’s to that word stability again.

Andrew (29:46.87)

Yeah. And I think that I, so I think that it’s quality, it’s championship quality at the starting level, obviously, but I think the depth because of that is championship quality because basically what you did, like, you know, it’s kind of like a baseball, like a baseball trade for like a starting rotation. It’s like, Hey, you just tried it for a number one pitcher. You just tried it for an ACE and now all of sudden that ACE steps in and now your best pitcher or your previous best pitcher doesn’t need to pitch game one.

in the playoffs. can now slide into the number two. Now you slide into number three or number four, right? It just makes everything kind of fit into place much better where you don’t need Malik Hartford to be the guy that can uphold the end of the defense, right? You don’t need Jaden Bonsu to step in in his second year and maybe be a starter if something happens. You’re not staring down the barrel

Ransom Hartford in 24, Hartford Bonsu in 25, and then in 2025, you’re looking at that room going, okay, is Jalen McLean and Lee Roy Roker the best three, four we got, or are we putting a freshman out there? Like the depth really, really was benefited by the Downs edition because again, it just, moved everybody into the, think their correct spots. you know, I think they would probably like to have another safety.

in the room. mean, they only have seven scholarship players right now at safety. They only have 81 on the roster. So I would bet you that if they had their way, if there was an Ohio State quality player that they could add at safety, that would probably be one of the first places that they would add. Maybe it’s like safety running back and then you kind of figure it out as you go. But yeah, to me, it’s championship quality starters, it’s championship quality.

you know, three through seven. And I think you have to feel really good about where this unit is at because again, you’ve got some versatility there. I think I mentioned the Hancock thing. There’s just, there’s a lot of ways to skin this cat. And I think Ohio State’s feeling pretty good.

Stephen Means (31:55.127)

This is another position where there’s a walk on who because they’re under a numbers, they might be able to give them a scholarship. And so I would keep an eye on. I don’t this is I’m just.

We did this earlier where I think one of our textures, 614350315, asked a question of some walk -ons. If you could give them a scholarship, who would you give it to? think Brenton Inky Jones is in that conversation for us, just because he also flashed the spring. if they’re under, I think he would be one of the walk -ons you would pay attention to. I know we mentioned TC Caffe last week when we talked about the running back situation as well. But stable, man.

Stability, that’s what this room needs. Start there and then you can start working on, let’s see how high the ceiling can be with this safety room throughout its future. But stability first, this is the most depth they’ve had at safety in terms of guys where if someone gets abducted by an alien for three snaps, you’re not holding your breath.

hoping that he doesn’t get exploited. Now, you put Malik Hartford out there in the Michigan game, he got exploited, but that’s a veteran quarterback identifying a true freshman’s out there. Malik Hartford’s not a true freshman anymore. know, and Jalen McClane.

Andrew (33:00.758)

And depending on who you ask, they didn’t even get exploited. Some people would say it wasn’t even a touchdown. So yeah, it might not have yet. Yeah.

Stephen Means (33:05.207)

That’s true. There are some people who would say that the veteran quarterback picked him off. So even in that situation, it’s not, you know, cut his dry all like that, but just you’re right. The numbers are low, especially for a defense that has coined the phrase safety driven defense when you’re playing three safeties. But to your point, one of the guys who plays one of the safety positions is in the quarterback room and that’s Jordan Hancock, put seven safeties and you feel good about five of them.

I think heading into the season, Caleb Downs.

Andrew (33:36.162)

Basically, yeah, you feel good about the non -freshman. I think that that’s probably the way to put it. Or do you want to include McLean in that conversation?

Stephen Means (33:43.413)

Not yet, because you just want to see him play real football first, because I think McLean right now is where Malik Hartford was last year, without, also having the benefit of not being one snap away from playing like Malik was, where he had a really good spring, and then you saw him out there the second week of the season, when he had to start for...

Andrew (33:47.692)

Yeah, I agree. I’m with

Stephen Means (34:06.699)

Josh Proctor and it just didn’t look great. And so they had to go with Jahad Carter. They probably could have used Jahad Carter sticking around though, just for the sake of depth, though he decided to leave. But I feel better about Jalen because unlike Malik, as I said, he’s not one snap away the way Malik was.

So whatever freshman mistakes he’s going to make, because they happen, he’s going for and also the schedule is a little bit easier. He’s going make on against Marshall and Akron in Western Michigan. But also he’s going to be making them in the third quarter of already decided game versus in the first quarter of a game that’s still zero to zero. So right now, I’ll just say the top five.

I think you can feel good about heading into the season. And by November, I think Jaylen McLean can be in that conversation of you feel comfortable about him, even though you don’t necessarily think he’s going to see the field this year, but you almost let’s check back on him in January and go, hey, is this guy going to win a job this year? I think that’s a realistic possibility for him as well.

Realistic best case and worst case scenarios. Best case scenario is they’re what they were last year, but also they have Caleb downs. Worst case scenario is maybe they take a step back from what they were last year, but they still have Caleb downs.

Andrew (35:21.195)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (35:23.819)

That’s it. And when I say realistic, it’s because I don’t, the injuries are obviously worst case scenario. I always have to give that caveat, but I want to also just be able to talk about what the actual performance is going to be.

Caleb Downs raises the ceiling. Even if the play falls off a little bit, he’s still on the field. And if Lathan Ransom is 5 % better than he was last year, plus Caleb Downs, Malik Harfords 5 % better than he was last year, plus Caleb Downs, right? That matters in this situation. I think the safety play is gonna be really elite this year because of that. I think the realistic best case scenario is the thing that’s on the table in this situation.

Andrew (36:05.292)

Yeah. mean, the Caleb downs of it all, I mean, it just changes the math in so many ways. I mean, it changes the math for the safety room. It changes the math for the defense. just the presence that he has on the field. It’s like. Steven, I don’t know. Are you a do you know who John Boyce is?

Stephen Means (36:23.649)

You know I don’t know who that is.

Andrew (36:24.942)

Okay, well, he’s a guy who does if you know who I’m talking about, he’s a very, very prominent like Twitter personality. He’s but he also does a YouTube page. And one of the things that he did was, like, he’s really good at like these like math type of questions. And one of the things that he did was he did a series about and I promise you, I will get to Caleb Downs. He did this like math series where he and like this like whole thing of like, he looked at Barry Bonds is like 2003 or 2004 season or whatever.

Stephen Means (36:32.459)

Yeah, I don’t know Twitter personnel.

Andrew (36:55.434)

And basically was like, hey, so many teams were afraid of him. What did like what happened here? And he basically simulated, okay, what happens if Barry Bonds walked to the plate without a bat? So nobody knew none of the pitchers knew that he didn’t have this bat, but Barry Bonds just stood there. And he did like a simulation looking at, okay, here were the percentage of pitches that he took that were balls. And what happens if it’s a ball? What happens if it’s a strike? And the long and short of it

Barry Bonds still would have had one of the best seasons in MLB history had he not had a bat. And it was just fear. People would walk him with the bases empty because they were afraid of a solo home run. And that was his whole point was like, this is one of the craziest things in baseball history. Look at what fear can do to opposing pitchers. Well, look at what fear I think can do to opposing offenses. You’re going to find out what’s going to happen

Stephen Means (37:31.565)

because I had just been walking him.

Andrew (37:54.476)

because I think you’re going to look at Caleb Downs and you’re going to look at Ohio State’s defense and just the fear that he is going to strike in opposing offenses is going to be tangible. You’re to be able to look at opposing offenses and they’re going to be afraid to do things that they normally wouldn’t be because Caleb Downs is back there. And that’s just going to feed them right into other things that Ohio State kind of wants. that’s my roundabout way of saying the Caleb Downs equation changes

It changes the way that opposing offenses treat Ohio State and it changes how Ohio State can treat its safety room. It just changes

Stephen Means (38:35.007)

It changes how they might run the ball this year, according to Ryan Day. But here, okay, since we’re at the end of this and we’ve reached the defensive side of this conversation, it’s four defensive units, linebackers, defensive linemen, cornerbacks, and safeties. And we’ve been asking this question for two weeks of is the group championship caliber and does it have to be for Ohio State’s team to win a national championship?

Andrew (38:37.651)

my

Stephen Means (39:04.205)

I think it’s championship caliber, but if you had to look at the four defensive categories and go this group, one is absolutely 100 % positively. If it’s not championship caliber, there’s no way this team wins a national title. And four is, I mean, sure.

I guess like it will they’ll be okay if it’s they’d like it to be they’d like all every position to be championship caliber But if this is the position that’s not championship caliber, they’ll be okay Where does safety fall on that list?

Andrew (39:44.078)

For me, it’s three. think in terms of defensive line one, think that outside, I think it’s quarterback number one, defensive line two. Like if you’re gonna rate the whole roster of where you want championship quality. So defensive line, I think is a lock to me for being the number one thing that you need. Personally, I don’t think you can possibly win a national championship without an elite defensive.

Stephen Means (39:47.137)

behind defensive line and corner.

Stephen Means (39:57.173)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Andrew (40:12.416)

I’m not saying you got to have like the Purple People leaders out there where you know you’re you can’t do it with a with a you know where you’re covering for a bad defensive line. So they’re number

Stephen Means (40:15.607)

Right, but that’s

Stephen Means (40:22.061)

I just want to make sure we’re applying it to like how the way this team is constructed as well.

Andrew (40:26.346)

I write so right now corners too and I think corner would be too for a while and what I mean by that is corner is number two and I think you needed to be championship quality as well to win a national championship. So cornerback is national championship quality cornerback needs to be national championship quality right now Ohio State safety room is national championship quality. I’ve said this that you know starting unit and the depth. I think though it’s an inverse relationship with corner.

The higher the corner back room is, the better the corner room is, which is very good right now. You don’t need it as much at safety to be championship quality. However, if you’re talking about a corner back room that, you your number one corner is Jordan Hancock and your number two corner is Jermaine Matthews and your number three is Aaron Scott, then you, like that’s a lot of promising talent, but you lose some of your depth, right? Like then you probably need your safety room to be that much

And I think this year, Ohio State would be fine. Next year, I guess they still have Caleb down, so they’re probably fine. But like you see what I’m saying? Like I think the better the corner room is, the less of a need that it is for the safety room to be championship quality. So it’s kind of, yes, you needed to be championship quality, but with an asterisk because you want everything to be championship quality, as you said. But if the cornerback room is...

the need for the safety room to be goes down. I hope you

Stephen Means (41:59.455)

I would put them third too. I would flip cornerback in defensive line just for this team. Because overall, yes, defensive line. That’s what wins champion. Yes, for sure. And that group has a number of guys who probably just need to like max out their potential here with Jack Sawyer and JT Twinmolo out and Tylee Williams. And we discussed a lot of that on the Monday pod. But this team has limitless options for what gymnals can do defensively.

And you know what helps with that? Having corners who shut down in man coverage. And I wrote this after the Peach Bowl during the 2022 season about how Ohio State needs to figure out its cornerback room because it might be holding back its defensive line in the process. And I looked at, yes, you had Joey Bosa. Yes, you had Nick Bosa. Yes, you had Chase Shum. But you know what you also had with those guys?

Malik Hooker as a safety, Marshawn Lattimore, Bradley Roby, Jeff Okuda, Denzel Ward. Like you paired it, right? The front and the back end work together. That’s what every defensive line and secondary member says. The front and the back work together. And so.

The defensive line recruiting hasn’t fell off. Even Zach Harrison was a five star recruit. Now, did it take him some time to develop? Sure. But what if he had a five star cornerback in that 2019 class with him? How does that change his level of production? Right. What if JT Tui Malau and Jack Sawyer last couple of years had that elite corner and especially in 2022 when they were in year two, how does that change their production? We started to see it last year, especially late in the year.

The cornerbacks were elite all season and you saw Jack Sawyer start to emerge. So if the corners build on what they were last year and you’ve got three dudes.

Stephen Means (43:52.589)

and a quarterback can’t get a pass off. But more importantly, if they’re tackling in the run game, if they’re in coverage and they’re elite, it just opens up what gymnos can do. Because if your corners are elite, that means you can blitz your linebackers more often. It means you can blitz your safeties more often. You can be more aggressive because you’re not worried about your corners giving up things. That was the thing in 2022. Gymnos was uber aggressive and it really showed up against Michigan. They were uber aggressive, but they didn’t have the corners who could hold up a man coverage. So if a quarterback diagnosed it quickly enough, it led

of 50 yard touchdowns and 60 yard touchdowns. That’s what happened in 2022. Jim Knowles can get back to that level of aggression he had in 2022, in 2024, as long as those corners are just as good as we think we are. Because what that, opens up everything you want to do with Caleb Downs. It opens up all the creativity. So I would flip those two, but I agree, safety is third on that list.

And we’re saying a group that we are pretty confident, about 99 .9 % confident is gonna be championship caliber. It’s third on the list of things that need to be championship caliber. So that’s a lot of groups that we think are gonna be championship caliber, but we also think about this entire defense in this situation. Three deep, we feel confident about five of those guys, three of which, because they’re veterans, two of which are veterans from the SEC.

one of which is in his third year as a starter in Latham Rantum. And then you’ve got some young guys behind them, Leigh Hartford, Jaden Bonsall, and Jalen McClain, who are coming on quite nicely while Leigh Roy Roker joins the team late. Last question for this. What’s a question you have about the room that isn’t something obvious or that, and in your face?

Andrew (45:30.284)

Yeah, it’s the development of Jaden Bonsu, I think, I think because everybody wants to talk about Malik Hartford. It’s how good is Bonsu and can Bonsu be somebody that pushes for a starting role next year? You know, I think we’re not really concerned about the corner room. We’re not really concerned about Caleb Downs. And I think everybody has just kind of penciled in Malik Hartford as the guy who’s going to start week one next to Caleb Downs when you play Texas in week one of twenty twenty five. And I’m not saying that that’s not true.

I just, we saw Malik Hartford play a little bit this year, but we didn’t see him play enough to where I was like, oh, this guy’s gonna ball and this guy’s a future all pro or not all pro. This guy’s a future all big 10 player and this guy’s a future, you know, sure fire NFL player. And I know you’ve talked to people in that building, Steven, who, you know, think or thought that definitely Hartford’s a three and done type of talent. And that still might be true, but I just haven’t seen that yet. And I think.

what we saw from Jaden Bonsu in spring practice, what we saw from Jaden Bonsu during the spring game, I mean, I guess what the nation saw, that was a nationally televised game. I wanna see if Jaden Bonsu is that guy, like is he the guy that can make that second safety spot interesting? And can he be the guy in 2025, frankly, that you maybe need? Because I understand you have Kenan Nelson, but like, we don’t really know what he is yet. And

You have Caleb Downs. He’s great. You have Malik Hartford. He seems to be pretty good. Everybody’s really high on him. But then you got a bunch of freshmen coming up. Jalen McClain and Leroy Roker, we don’t really know there. You need Jayden Bonsu next year, right? You need Jayden Bonsu to be really good because if you don’t have Jayden Bonsu, then it’s Caleb Downs, it’s Malik Hartford, and then you might have a cliff. You might have a cliff to fall off of without, you know, without knowing what Jaylen McClain is going to be. So again, if Jayden Bonsu can ball,

From what we saw, he looked really good and I just, wanna know if that’s, hey, he’s gonna be really good as he’s gonna be the starting safety next to Malik Hartford in 2026 or he’s a starting safety in 2026 or is this a, he can start in 2025. I don’t know the answer to that question. I wanna

Stephen Means (47:46.389)

Is Matt Guerrero an upgrade? Because you didn’t have to bring him back. He’s been with Jim Knowles for a while. They were together at Duke, so he’s a Jim Knowles disciple.

Stephen Means (47:59.989)

I didn’t think Perry Eliano was doing a bad job. I thought he was doing a decent job, but decent isn’t the standard at Ohio State. The standard is elite. And so if you’re not being elite, Ryan Day, that’s a, that decision is like one of the, as another example, that’s not as, it’s kind of under talked about because he did something big and gave a play calling, right? And the transfer report and all that other stuff, but it’s all, it’s a little small thing of.

Sometimes you gotta make a hard decision that I don’t think anybody would have been like, why did you bring back Perry Eliano if he brought back Perry Eliano? But he didn’t, he didn’t retain him. His contract was up. He didn’t resign him. He decided to bring in Matt Gray, who had spent the year being the defensive coordinator in Indiana. I think he almost went to Tulsa though and followed Kevin Wilson there. Is that an upgrade? Because it’s not a big swing, but it’s just, what is he doing?

this year that shows up in a way, whether it’s on the recruiting trail or it’s on the football field with the guys who were starting this year or in the development of the young guys like Malik Harford and Jayden Bonsu and Jaylen McClain and Leroy Roker. What is he doing where we get to October, November and we’re going, that’s why Brian Day Wing got that guy. That’s why he didn’t bring back Perry Elionado and brought that guy in here. And I don’t think it’ll be, it’ll probably be something subtle.

Right, it’s not gonna be this drastic thing because again, the safeties played pretty well the last two years outside of some rocky moments. So what is the thing Ryan Day saw in Matt Guerrero that made him feel like I’m not retaining my safeties coach, I’m bringing you back here?

That’s my question. And I don’t know if it’s probably a nuanced answer to that question. Like you’re gonna get a tangible answer to the Jayden and Bonsu question at some point, whether that pays off this year or we’re talking about it next spring. I don’t know if I’m gonna get the same level of payoff with that immediately. Or maybe I am already seeing some of the payoff of that. We’ll take our last break and we’ll come back and we’ll talk about the recruiting, which, I mean.

Stephen Means (50:11.629)

They got a top 100 safety. So maybe we’re already seeing some of the tangible evidence of why Ryan Day brought Matt Guerrero back, not as a graduate assistant, but as a full -time assistant coach. we’ll get into that when we come back for the break here on Buckeye

Stephen Means (50:28.781)

So we’re gonna get into the good, the bad, and the um on this last part of the pod. That’s what we’re gonna refer to the future here as we talk about where it’s going. Andrew three safety commits and it’s 2025 recruiting class, number one class in the country, 23 overall commits, 23 guys who are, excuse me, three guys who are safeties. Let’s start with, let’s start from the bottom and work our way up. Kody had died.

the Ohio commit who they flipped from Wisconsin for people. Just a reminder of what who this kid is, what Ohio State is getting in him and just your overall thoughts on Cody a dot.

Andrew (51:10.614)

Yeah, Cody Haddad is a really interesting kind of prospect because, I mean, this was a kid who, you know, I think Ohio State, not to say they got lucky because you don’t want to say that about a kid who was hurt, you know, but this is a guy who played at St. Ignatius and he missed a lot of his junior year, which is obviously, you know, the...

Andrew (51:38.326)

He missed a lot of his junior year with an, I believe it was an arm injury. And that’s the year where you really start to see recruitment kind of pick up, right? Like that’s the year where, you know, you really, mean, obviously you have freshmen and sophomore year where coaches evaluate stuff like that, but junior year is really where it picks up and he missed a lot of it. He played, hurt a lot. I know he had to put like like a club or whatever it was on, on his arm to kind of play through the rest of the year. He missed some significant time. And I think that Ohio state,

maybe would have been on him earlier. He committed to Wisconsin on January 17th and Ohio State offered three days later. And he got a lot of other offers, A offered, Iowa offered, Minnesota offered. He decommits when Wisconsin two weeks later, he commits to Ohio State. This is a player that I really like. This is a guy who can run. His dad played in the NFL. He can hit. I think he plays a lot of different things. I think the number one thing

When I have talked to Cody Haddad, when I’ve talked to Deshaun Stewart, when I’ve talked to Fahim Delaney, every single one of them uses the word versatility. And I think that that’s a really important thing to note is that they view both safety positions as interchangeable. They view maybe even that nickel corner as versatile. they really think that they can move all these guys around. So I like Haddad. And I think that Ohio State, you know, maybe they jump in on him earlier,

maybe a program like Penn State or Michigan or who else is in the area, Notre Dame or, you know, one of the other big time Midwestern slash Big Ten programs gets involved. And it’s a little bit harder to flip him from Penn State or Michigan than it is to flip him from Wisconsin. I’m not saying they couldn’t have done it, but, you know, I think Ohio State has made a really, really smart choice here and a really, really smart bet

mean, Cody Haddad’s number 386 overall player in the class. He’s still listed as an athlete. Ohio State is obviously going to use him as a safety. You know, this is a kid who when he committed to Ohio State, he was in the five hundreds, I think maybe six hundreds. And he was a he was a kid that I remember I sent it in and a couple of people texted back in our subtext. Six, one, four, three, five, oh, three, three, one, five. Why should we care? You know, like this doesn’t really move the needle for me. And I get thinking

Andrew (54:04.622)

But I think that this is maybe of Ohio State’s class in terms of who could rise, who could fall. This to me might be the kid that rises the most. Like I think that we might have like a top 200 prospect on our hands with Cody Hedad and that would mean he’s rising up the rankings almost over 200 slots.

Stephen Means (54:29.656)

So next up is Deshaun Stewart Ohio State’s busy in New Jersey in this cycle man. They got a couple of guys The number 245 player number 21 overall safety. Tell us more about the Sean

Andrew (54:42.476)

Yeah, Deshawn is another interesting kid because he plays corner at DePaul Catholic and Ronnie Hickman also went to DePaul Catholic. you know, that’s exactly what they have kind of used him as, you know, they’ve kind of made that comparison. And the thing that you watch with Deshawn Stewart, the ball skills are off the charts. And why are they off the charts? Because he plays corner and he’s not going to play corner at Ohio State.

And that to me is impressive about that early. That’s the most impressive part about Deshaun Stuart, I should say, because he, you know, all he does is make plays at corner and now they’re going to have him play at safety. So there’s going to be a little bit of a transition there, but Ronnie Hickman did the exact same thing. You know, you’ve got a guy who, who knows coverage skills, who’s got great athletic ability. I mean, you turn on the tape for him. And I mean, it’s, it’s just, it’s really impressive.

you know, kind of how he handles everything and how he plays in coverage. you know, you talk to people around him and, know, they really like what he can do is a cover guy. So, you know, he’s a bigger body. He’s listed at 6 ‘2″, 185. So there’s obviously room to kind of fill out there. And I think that, you know, when it’s all said and done, Ohio State’s can have a cover corner that they really like. So, you know, you like the length, you like the cover skills, you like the cover ability, you like the ranginess. And I mean, trust me, you watch his film and he’s not afraid to run up

put the leather on somebody. So I really like Deshaun Stewart. I think he is a really, really solid football player and I’m kind of buying what Ohio State’s selling in terms of him making that transition from corner to safety.

Stephen Means (56:23.038)

The way you just described it makes me feel like he’s going to end up being a nickel. Because Jim knows, I talked about that, too. When they’re looking for those nickel safeties, they’re just as likely to take a guy who’s got corner a corner background and play it just as much as a safety background. Jordan Hancock is the first real example of that. But the guy who had that job before Jordan had it was Tanner McAllister, who had a safety background. So it just makes me think.

Andrew (56:27.116)

Perhaps,

Stephen Means (56:49.077)

Nishan Stewart as a nickel safety makes a lot of sense. And then you got Fahim Dillane. Where does he fit?

Cause that’s a top 40 recruit who is a borderline five star recruit. It’s a big deal that they got that kid and it felt like it was headed that way the entire time. And it just felt more like the official visit was punctuation more than anything else. And now he’s in the class for starters, any worry that he’ll make it to signing day, but then also where does he fit into this defense?

Andrew (57:19.534)

Yeah, I mean, this is another guy that they kind of sold on the versatility and Fahim when I was out in the DC area and I went and visited with him and his coach. And one of the things that Fahim told me was like, I don’t really care where I play as long as I can get on the field. Whatever’s going to get me on the field fastest. That’s what I want to play. And that’s what I want to do for Ohio State. So obviously Ohio State might have maybe a different development plan for him, but that’s kind of Fahim’s mentality. And, you know, he’s another kid, six, two and a half, 195. This is a kid that I think

can play that nickel roll. He can play that, you one of the two high safeties. A really, really talented kid in terms of, you know, just football intelligence. They know that’s something that really kind of maps or jumps off the page when you kind of map it out and you see the, you know, the ability of him to just recognize plays and, you know, he steps up into the box and he’ll make plays and he drops back in coverage and he makes plays and you can kind of use him all around the field. And he just, he’s an athletic freak.

And, you know, I, you know, I really like him. I like his aggressiveness. I like the way that he plays. I think that he takes chances, which, you know, maybe you got to be a little bit careful of at the college level. You get burned a little bit. You know, first, first two times you go up against Jeremiah Smith and try to jump around and Jeremiah Smith makes you look foolish. Maybe you start to rethink that philosophy, but I do like aggressiveness and players. I’ve said that a lot. I mean, this guy plays in one of the better high school leagues in the country in the WCAC in the DC area is a,

one of the Catholic leagues out there. It’s a big deal. So with Fahim Delaney, this is another guy who he has played corner. Good counsel, you their coach out there told me that he has played corner. He has played safety. You watch him play and they’ve moved him down almost into like an outside backer type of role. This is a guy that can move around. And again, you know, we can talk about the roles for all these kids. And I don’t want to frustrate, you know, recruiting fans and Ohio State fans as they talk about this,

We talk about the roles for these guys and it really depends, man. It really depends on on kind of how their bodies evolve and how their senior years go and how their freshman years go when they get to Ohio State because there is true versatility in all these players and that’s what I say likes about them. And I think for him, Delaine is probably the best of the bunch of the three that they

Stephen Means (59:39.949)

So let’s end with this, because this is kind of the bad and the um at the same time. There are five players in the state of Ohio in the 2025 cycle who are considered amongst the top 80 players in the country. You have five star quarterback Tape in St. Clair as a number nine player and the number two quarterback in the country. He’s creeping, man. That number one spot is he’s creeping. got Trey McNutt, the number 19 player in the top safety in the country.

You’ve got Carter Lowe, the number 49 player and number six offensive tackle in the country. You’ve got Justin Hill, the number 56 player and number four edge rusher in the country and Bo Jackson, the number 77 player and number four running back in the country. Tavian Carter and Bo one, three and five are all committed to Ohio state. Justin Hill. And I know we talked about him earlier this week. He committed to Alabama and

That’s a loss, but it’s not over. I think that’s a recruitment that’s going to continue on. as we know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s one of those things where you chop it up to, you’re selling a kid on a position that might not exist. And maybe we see the Jack this year and Justin Hill sees everything he needs to see and goes, you know what? I’m going to go up to street to Ohio state. I’m not going to go to Bama. Maybe he doesn’t who knows, but that fight is not over. The Trey McNutt fight is interesting.

Andrew (01:00:42.158)

Ohio State is not deleting that number from their phone,

Stephen Means (01:01:07.149)

He set a commitment date for tomorrow. Ask people who are listening to this pod. You’re about 24 hours away from trading, make nuts decision and where things sit right now. It seems like organs in the lead, right? At least right now. That one is definitely not over. That one is going to continue to be fought until he signs his piece of paper. I don’t want to have an organ conversation when it comes to trade, make nut right now, because that day is coming, right? They have to play Oregon.

Andrew (01:01:34.51)

We will have an Oregon specific conversation eventually.

Stephen Means (01:01:36.857)

They’re going to play Oregon this year. And so we’re going to have that conversation much later on in the commerce in the, process. Ohio state hasn’t lost a five star that it absolutely wanted to have yet since Ryan day took over the program. got Zach Sawyer. It got Paris Johnson. It got CJ Hicks. It got Sonny styles. It’s getting Tabian St. Clair, right? It got it. The only ones that hasn’t gotten are like drew our.

And it’s because they got quinoa yours. That’s why they didn’t get your hour. Those are the types of five stars they lose. If Trey McNutt commits to Oregon tomorrow, that’s a legit loss of a five star recruit. And it’s something we haven’t seen in the Ryan Day era, losing five star recruits from your backyard. And it also just happens to be at a position, as we talked about during last season, Andrew, where the recruiting of it hasn’t always been great.

Is this a, sometimes kids just don’t want to stay home, man. Obviously we can say the NIL implications, but NIL is everything now. Every recruitment in the country has NIL involved with it. Now, are some more NIL than others? Sure. But this is the world we live in where NIL matters. So yes, I’m acknowledging that. I’m acknowledging, right. But I’m acknowledging that NIL probably plays a role here. Cause I don’t want to

Andrew (01:02:40.63)

Yeah, sure.

Andrew (01:02:50.326)

Money matters in every profession in the world, of course.

Stephen Means (01:02:59.531)

just dismissive of that. But the other factors of maybe this kid just doesn’t want to stay home. Maybe this is like an Aaron Scott situation where he’s flirting as hard as possible to not stay home and then eventually picks Ohio State.

Or maybe Trey McNutt looked at the history of safety play at Ohio State in the last five years, and it hasn’t been great. Yes, Caleb Downs exists, but he just got here and he’s a transfer. It’s not like you want to hit him out of high school. Maybe it’s Matt Gray. He’s new. And so that relationship is still being bonded. Maybe it’s all of those things in general. But what does that say about where things are headed in the future with Ohio State safety recruiting? If the best safety in the country.

lives two and a half hours from your campus and is willing to go to the other side of the country to a team who is now in the big 10. And that’s if he picks Oregon. This has not happened yet. And a lot can change. Right. There was a situation where you thought everybody thought Justin Hill was going to pick the Buckeyes and then six and a half hours before he makes his commitment. All of a sudden, Alabama is taking the lead. So things can change between while you’re listening to this spot on Thursday and him actually making his decisions Friday afternoon. But right now it seems like Oregon’s in the lead there.

What do you make of that, Andrew? And what does that say about where Ohio State’s safety recruiting is?

Andrew (01:04:17.912)

Well, to be fair, he has also got another Big Ten school in there in USC, which is hilarious that we’re considering Oregon and USCs. But that’s my point. Yeah. So it’s like, I guess he could end up in the Big Ten theoretically, but and not end up at Oregon or Ohio State. This is an interesting conversation that I would really like to maybe kind of glean some more from from him, from people around him. You know, like you said, this this recruitment is not over, you

Stephen Means (01:04:23.047)

Okay, yeah, anyway.

Andrew (01:04:45.166)

As with any recruitment in the year 2024, just because a kid commits doesn’t mean that a coach goes, ah, shucks, we missed and whatever. And it happens to Ohio State and it happens for Ohio State, right? Ohio State is not gonna like if Trey McNutt, I said this to our subtext subscribers last week when the announcement got made that Trey McNutt was, know, that he had picked a date. I think...

You know, I think an earlier commitment date probably doesn’t favor Ohio State because I think Ohio State kind of wanted this to go on a little bit and really kind of, you know, really kind of drag this out and, you know, turn this into a war where it’s like, man, you are this close to time, you really want to leave? Like that, I think was Ohio State’s probably best chance of landing him. think an earlier commitment date doesn’t bode well for them, but

There is something to be said for building your own path and blazing your own trail because this was something that Chad Murphy said to me. He’s a coach at Winton Woods and he’s a great, great coach. love, I love talking to him. he’s got a great program down in Cincinnati. he’s, he’s just, he’s a real genuine guy and he says what he means and it means what he says. And in one of the things that he said about Justin Hill, which I thought was really interesting. And I think he’s right is

Sometimes guys want to go do their own thing and they want to blaze their own trail. And sometimes it can be as simple as that, where it’s, you know, everybody’s been telling me for five years that I should be going to Ohio State, that everybody’s telling me I’m going to be the next great Buckeye and then I’m going to be doing this. And sometimes kids just want to go somewhere else and that’s fine. And I do think though it is notable that if McNutt does indeed leave the state, two of the top four players in the state of Ohio are now going

programs that Ohio State compares itself against, going to Oregon and going to Alabama. So it’s an Ohio conversation. It’s a safety conversation because this was a position that you need high level talent at, right? This is not like you lost a five star receiver. I mean, I guess it would be another kind of crazy if you lost like a five star receiver in your backyard. But if you’re losing, like if Trey McNutt played wide receiver, Ohio State would probably feel less bad

Andrew (01:07:07.118)

it frankly, like they would feel better about losing a receiver that’s in your backyard, because the receiving situation is just so different than the safety situation right now, where you’re still trying to work your way out of it, you’re still trying to build the future for 252627. So it’s an interesting look, man. And I’m fascinated to see and I’m fascinated to kind of hear about what factors were important as recruitment, you know, money can be a factor,

I also don’t like the argument that, well, he only cares about money. because Ohio State’s got money too. Ohio State’s got an NIL program too. They’ve got a robust NIL program. That doesn’t mean that Ohio State’s just not throwing anything around, right? So Ohio State’s not showing him, this is what, look at Denzel Burke. I think Denzel Burke’s a great example. Denzel Burke admitted this, that he wouldn’t be at Ohio State right now if it wasn’t for their NIL program. So Ohio State does have some money that they’re throwing around.

I want to know what, what factors were important to, to Trey. I want to know how much of this was him saying, you know, I want to blaze my own trail. We’ve seen this with him and kind of blazing his own trail where, you know, he was one of the guys that was outspoken about Ohio state or not Ohio state, the state of Ohio and their seven on seven rules, right? Where kids couldn’t play and you know, you, you wonder like, you know, if, that’s just the way that the kid is wired of saying,

I don’t necessarily need to do what everyone tells me I have to do because if that was the case, Justin Hill would be at Ohio State. Everybody was telling him, he needs to go to Ohio State. He needs to do this. He needs to do that. And he looked at his situation and what I think I have a better chance at Oregon. Maybe Fame DeLane does the same thing or fame DeLane, Trey McNutt. you’re like, yeah, that’d be bad if it was fame DeLane. Maybe Trey McNutt’s doing that same thing. So. Really interesting conversation to be had, and I think that there’s a lot of variables here that involve the state of Ohio that involve the Oregon Ducks.

that involve the safety position. It’s just a very, very multifaceted.

Stephen Means (01:09:11.563)

If he doesn’t pick Ohio State tomorrow, but Ohio State figures out a way to flip him between now and signing day, I think it’s a statement that Matt Guerrero. It’s another way of to go back to what I was saying. My not so obvious question is what’s the thing of this is something Ryan Day and even Jim Knowles are seeing in Matt Guerrero that made them bring him back here as the assistant coach.

If that happens, that says something because Tim Walton, yes, but Matt Guerrero would be his positions coach. So if that happens or if. Momentum flips between when you’re listening to this pod and we get to Friday, that’s the statement too. But if at any point, Matt Guerrero. To convince this kid to stay home, I think that’s a statement. If he doesn’t, I don’t think that’s as big of a statement in a negative way. It just leaves you with it. It leaves us where we’re at now.

Andrew (01:09:59.008)

I agree.

Stephen Means (01:10:02.797)

still wondering where is this position headed long term and can it find consistent stability? And I think that’s the way I’ve come to a conclusion about the safety room is I’ve watched five years of instability and not right now in 2024 they found stability, but is it going to be long term?

Or is it a short term solution for 18 maximizing its championship window in two two thousand and twenty four. Get the text six one four three five oh three three one five. That wraps up our two week series state of the program.

a deep dive into every position of the Ohio State roster. There are some positions had have a shiny past, a shiny present and a shiny future. There are some who have some parts of it are shiny and some parts of it are gloomy. And I don’t think anybody has a complete loomy from start to finish. Right. They’ve all had high moments and they’ve all had low moments outside of wide receiver. They haven’t had a low moment yet, which is I mean, kudos to them. But it’s just been interesting.

just looking back on how we got here and where things go from here. And I think some of it just might depend on how this season plays out, right? Does Ohio State beat Michigan and get back in the win column and the rivalry?

This is Ohio State winning national championship. The future was so much projection, but so much of it depends on what happened in 2024. And there are some things that we’re going to be having to figure out over the next six months about this team that wraps this up. We’re just going to have some fun on Friday. Check out our YouTube channel. Just type in Buckeye talk on YouTube and you’ll find us. We’ll definitely react to the Trey Mcnutt news and we’ll be doing a couple other things on YouTube as well. But we’re just going to have some fun on the Friday pod and be millennials. So you guys can check that out or you cannot. We’re just going to be talking about our

Stephen Means (01:11:49.519)

impressions of a game that hasn’t been around for a decade that will have been out officially starting tomorrow, but it’s been out for a couple of days if you pre -order the way we do, because that’s what everybody does nowadays is you’re pre -ordering into deluxe editions. You can play it early and then next week.

The grind starts officially with Big 10 media days, 18 Big 10 teams. And so it’s no longer a two day thing. It’s three days. Ohio State’s going on the first day. Michigan’s on the second day. It’s spread out though. There’s enough elite teams on each day that there’s going to be intriguing information coming out from each of those days next week. So get the text 614 -350 -3315. Stefan will be back on the Friday pod and then he’s with us forever. Or as long as he’ll have us. So for Andrew Gillis and Stefan Kreisnick, I’m Stephen Means and that was

talk.