Following an explosive season for Ohio State’s tight ends, what’s next? Buckeye Talk podcast

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The 2024 season is right around the corner as Ohio State enters a pivotal year of the Ryan Day era.

It’s the perfect time to set a tone and discuss what Day has accomplished as head coach, using that to project what the future holds, especially in a season where OSU has clearly pushed all its chips into the middle of the table. In doing so, we at Buckeye Talk will spend the next two weeks breaking down the program position by position looking at its past, present and future under Day.

Up next, Stephen Means and Andrew Gillis discuss the tight ends and what defines success for Keenan Bailey

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:16.768)

And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk, continuing our two week long series, state of the program, position by position, breaking down the Ryan Day era, looking at it from a past perspective, a present perspective, and where it’s headed in the future. I’m Stephen Means and that’s Andrew Gillis. And Stefan will be joining us shortly as he wraps up his vacation out in Europe. We got a couple more of these to do.

So next week he’ll be joining us when we get ready to go for the 2024 regular season. But that’s why we’re doing this, Andrew. We’re at a midway, not a midway point, but just at an interesting point in the Ryan Day era where it’s his program completely. And we have a good enough sample size to be able to talk about things and what it’s been and where it’s going. We’ve done quarterback, we’ve done running back, we’ve done wide receiver. And now this week we’re going with tight end. We’ve got two more offensive groups and then next week obviously we’ll do defensive groups. We’re talking tight end today. And it’s like.

I have no idea how to talk about this, Andrew, because it’s like, I don’t know what’s real. Right? Here’s the, here’s the leaders in tight ends in terms of production, receiving production since Ryan Day took

in 2019. We’re talking, starting with the president, excuse me, the past as we typically do.

In 2019, Jeremy Ruckert led all tight ends. had 14 catches for 142 yards and four touchdowns, including one pretty cool one -handed touchdown catch in the Big Ten Championship game against Wisconsin. The guys behind him, Luke Farrell had seven catches for 119 yards and two touchdowns, and then Jake Housman had two catches for 13 yards, one of which was a touchdown. But they play a lot of snaps.

405 snaps that year for Jeremy Ruckert, Luke Farrell 461 snaps and Jake Housman 237 snaps. We know that the Titan is a vital part of Ohio State’s offense. It’s just not in terms of getting the ball right now. Then you get to 2020.

Stephen Means (02:04.812)

Jeremy Rucker plays 354 snaps in eight games, 13 catches for 151 yards and five touchdowns. So by that math, he’s actually more involved in 2020 than he is in 2019. It’s just less games, right? But 13 catches in eight games versus 14 catches in 14 games. A lot of that came against Clemson though, when Ohio State used its tight ends to the fullest. Luke Farrell that year, five catches, 37 yards and one touchdown on 378 snaps.

Then you get to 2021 and it ramps up because they’re really throwing the ball. Obviously, Garrett Wilson, Jackson Smith, the Jigma and Chris Olavi are at the heart of that. But Jeremy Ruckert, 26 catches, 309 yards and three touchdowns on 714 snaps. we’re ramping it up here. But if you add all that together, so you add in what Jeremy Ruckert was for three seasons, what Luke Farrow was for two seasons and Jake excuse me, Jake Housman’s 2019 stats, all that together.

It’s 67 catches for 768 yards and 16 touchdowns, which is okay for right three years of production. It’s kind of okay. If you just look at the leaders, Jeremy Rucker as the leader, that’s 60 it’s 53 catches for 602 yards and 12 touchdowns, which is okay. But it also means Titans don’t get the ball here. You weren’t on the pod yet, but we actually had a conversation or one of our market down Mondays was under 20 catches.

for Cade Stover going into the 2022 season. And it was based off of what we had been looking at for three years there. Cade Stover in 2022, 36 catches, 406 yards and five touchdowns. And then obviously last year where he’s the Big Ten Titan of the year in a John Mackie award final, it’s 41 catches for 576 yards and five touchdowns. was tied for second in catches this year. He was tied for third in catches in 2022. So in two years.

Cade Stover had 10 more catches than the top three tight ends had in the three years combined before that. 77 catches for 987 yards and 10 touchdowns for Cade Stover in two years as Ohio State’s tight end. Andrew, what do you even make of that in the production? And is that more

Stephen Means (04:20.894)

An offense that was constantly evolving, was that about just some opportunities Cade has because maybe there were some injuries that the wide receivers have threw things off or was Cade Stover just that good in comparison to some of the other guys we saw?

Andrew (04:34.838)

I think it was a mix of two things. think, I mean, this team is so loaded at receiver that it’s hard to get a tight end driven offense. This isn’t Iowa, right? This isn’t Notre Dame, right? This isn’t a team that you’re going to look at, you know, Hey, when they play Iowa, who does Ohio State have to worry about going over the middle when they play Notre Dame? Who does Ohio State have to worry about going over that? That’s not this. So I think it’s a weird comparison because I don’t know.

You know, don’t want to say that Cade Silver’s that much better because I don’t know if he was just that much better than everybody else. I just think that the opportunity was there for him. You know, you had a quarterback who, I mean, let’s call it what it is, was not, he was not a Heisman level quarterback like Justin Fields and CJ Shroud were, right? He was

Stephen Means (05:26.348)

No, but even he did this in 2022 when he had CJ Stroud. Hey, yeah, in 2022 he had 36 catches for 406 yards and five touchdowns. So he just like continued his production.

Andrew (05:31.222)

Who did? Cade?

Andrew (05:39.742)

Right. but I think with, with the receivers that you had last year, I think that that was, I think that that was setting up to be a really, really special year for the, for the receivers. It’s just that comma coordinated safety blanket. And I think that that’s kind of where some of those numbers came in sometimes. cause Kate, think Kate is a really good player. and I think he had a little bit of that benefit that I guess you could say.

where I know he wouldn’t like this, but his blocking is not his strongest suit. I’ll put it like that. He’s more of a receiving tight end, right? So he’s not one of those tight ends. It’s going to stay in there and block because he’s just going to maul people and he’s a sixth offensive lineman. That’s just not Cade Stover’s game. And I think it just makes sense in that regard to kind of have him laid out and go, okay, he’s just going to catch more passes and

when you kind of map out, okay, well, he played with a really good quarterback, you that helps some of his numbers and then okay, he played with a quarterback, then you need to check down that needed, that helps some of his numbers. So I think it was just a kind of a mix of

Stephen Means (06:54.124)

I think Kate Silver was just that good that they felt they needed to get him the ball. Now, what probably played into it in both of the seasons is you didn’t have your full starting receiving core for a lot of the year, right? You spent nine months building an offense around Jackson Smith, the Jigba in 2022 only for him to hurt his hamstring. And I think what was at the first quarter of the first game of the season and it throws everything out of balance, right? Now, what helped with that is Marvin Harrison Jr. He was pretty good.

of Bucca, he was pretty good, but what you had then is a more traditional sense of, I think 2022 was the most pro style we had seen in terms of the distribution of production for Ohio State. You have two top tier thousand yard receivers.

You had a tight end that could be involved and you had a wide receiver three who I think in most of the big 10 is at worst your wide receiver two. And as a matter of fact, Julian Fleming is at Penn State right now. He’s probably their best receiver already, but he’s a quality third option, but he’s kind of splitting, you know, touches with the tight end who’s a quality option as well. And then in 2023, I think you would have seen something similar.

had Emeka Buka not gotten hurt. Both Emeka Buka and Cade Stover both had 41 catches. Emeka also missed a couple of games that year dealing with an injury, but also in some of the games he was playing after that injury, he still didn’t look like himself. Well, I think Julian Fleming, I think the difference between Kyle McCord and CJ Stroud in terms of wide receiver distribution of production was your wide receiver three kinda got.

disregarded right julian fleming went from 34 catches for 533 yards and six touchdowns in 2022 to 26 catches for 270 yards and no touchdowns in 2023 but i think cade stover it’s just it’s an interesting thing to lay out because jeremy rucker was a top 100 recruit as a tight end so you would have thought on the day he signed that he would have had the numbers that cade stover would eventually have luke farrow and jake houseman were tight ends when they got

Stephen Means (08:56.524)

Cate Stover started his career off as a linebacker, moved into the defensive line room, moved to tight end, was playing in the Rose Bowl, by the way, in the Rose Bowl after the 2021 season, he’s playing linebacker. So there’s a linebacker on the field for Ohio State in the Rose Bowl. And you’re going, hey, in about a year from now, that guy’s gonna have 36 catches for 406 yards and five touchdowns and be a vital member of this offense. And really,

Had he not gotten knocked out of the Peach Bowl the following year after his first catch, he probably would have had 40 catches last year with the way they were running things. I think what you saw is, I think you’re halfway right, Buckeye Dog. Where you’re right is there was a combination of things that made it possible for Ohio State to rely on its tight end a little bit more. Injuries to Jax Smith and Jigba, injuries to Emeka Buka the following year.

Julian Fleming not necessarily being as involved in his second year as a starter as he was in his first year as a starter, but also I think Cade Stover maximized the opportunity to be another weapon for Ohio State plus.

Trevion Henderson was involved in the passing game in 2021. He was not really involved in the passing game the last couple of years. And I think those targets instead went to Cade Stover and has created a world where I don’t know how to talk about Ohio State’s tight end room going forward because these are two extremes, right? We went from in 2019, the leading tight end has 14 catches to 2023. The leading tight end is second on the team in catches with 41 catches. We’re going short.

with the past part because that’s just kind of what it is. I don’t think there’s a way to judge the recruiting of tight end because also some of this is based off some weird stuff of sometimes.

Andrew (10:41.742)

Well, tight ends also a very tight ends also a very developmental position, right? It’s a very unique position to try and grade. You I mean, you look at 2020, they didn’t have a tight end picked. You look at 2021, Luke Farrell, he’s a fifth round pick. 2022, you have Jeremy Rucker. He goes one on one. Twenty three got like the picks have been impressive. It’s just a hard. It’s a hard conversation to quantify because.

Stephen Means (10:46.624)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (11:00.064)

That’s even impressive though.

Andrew (11:10.638)

Ohio State is a team that plays one tight end usually, right? Like the majority of their offense is kind of run out of 11 personnel. You know, they do throw two tight ends out there,

Stephen Means (11:21.74)

They do 12 person though a lot. Ryan Day loves 12 person.

Andrew (11:24.475)

I need to see the numbers on that. I wish that there was like a site that we could, you know, check personnel groupings and stuff like

Stephen Means (11:29.228)

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, this is obviously a feel right now. They did it a lot in 2020. And as we talked about on the receiver pod, a lot of that was because they had Garrett and Chris as really the main guys at wide receiver and they had a veteran tight end room.

And then I think the last two years they’ve done it, but maybe not as much as 2020 because behind Kate Stover, you weren’t always confident in what’s your second option. And we can get into some of this conversation when we get into the present. Cause I think this is going to be a continuing conversation of did they do more 11 personnel?

Especially this year because you didn’t have Mitch Rossi like you did in 2022 as another tie -in option Where it was a lot of 11 personnel because you just weren’t confident in the room And if you feel more confident in the room, do we see more of that 12 personnel?

Andrew (12:15.64)

Yeah, I mean, that’s the possibility. It’s just, again, I think it’s just such a weird conversation because you’ve had NFL talent, yes, you can have championship quality tight end play. We’ve seen that. Iowa, for example, has had championship quality tight end play. Georgia has had championship quality tight end play. Notre Dame has had championship quality tight end play. But

Are any of those offenses really like the envy of Ohio State? You know, like, you know, like that’s, think it may be a more interesting point. Like, Steven, you, you, I mean, you have covered this team longer than I have. Whenever Ohio State has played Iowa in the time that you’ve been here, has, have you ever gone into a week going, man, Iowa might throw some stuff at them offensively that they could really mess them up. Probably not. Right. There’s probably nothing serious. Like when they, when,

When,

Stephen Means (13:14.956)

I wasn’t on the beat yet in 2017 when they had two tight ends just like dismantle their defense. But back in 2022 when they played, I mean, you’re correct. wasn’t Sam Laporta was a very good football player. I wasn’t he wasn’t going to be the reason why I will won that game.

Andrew (13:31.918)

Right. Yeah. And it is the same thing, I think, in that, um, in the 2022 Notre Dame game where it was like, all right, they got Michael Mayer and Michael Mayer is Notre Dame’s best player. Who else they got that scares you? There’s not really anybody that scares you. mean, like the only argument would have been like, ah, if they get the offensive line rolling, which they didn’t, you know, Ohio State’s defensive line played pretty well in that game. So it’s like, that’s kind of the weird thing where it’s

It’s like, how much does it matter or how much should it matter at Ohio State to have that, you know, previous, you know, tight end room? I think it’s a, mean, you, would prefer to have it. You would prefer to have Luke Farrell and Jeremy Ruckert and Cade Stover and guys like that. But I don’t know how much Ohio State’s offense can truly evolve with an NFL tight end every year, every other year. And frankly, I don’t know how much in Ohio State offense can really look.

Like how much better would Ohio State’s offense have been if last year? I’m not going to say Brock Bowers because Brock Bowers was just like a different type of tight end where you could like you could use him in the backfield. could you they Georgia was running end of rounds to this man and stuff like that. But like. You know, you start to wonder like, OK. How much is? Ohio State’s offense different in 2022.

Stephen Means (14:40.116)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (14:46.217)

Yeah.

Andrew (14:57.696)

if you have Dalton Kincaid, the tight end that went to Buffalo, who was like a first round pick, right? Or how different is Ohio State’s offense if you have Ben Sinad or Ben Sinad or whatever his name is, the kid from Kansas State who played with Will Howard last year? I don’t know the answer to that question. But that’s my point. And these are guys that are going in the first and second

Stephen Means (15:05.363)

I don’t think

Stephen Means (15:14.496)

I don’t think it’s much different, honestly. It’s like, H -OVER was a really good tight end for them. It’s just not how their offense flows. It’s just not, right? So it’s a nod to opportunity meets readiness. The opportunity for a tight end to be more involved has showed its face the last two years. And they had a guy in place capable.

of maximizing that and caged over and he turned it into 77 catches, 987 yards and 10 touchdowns and he was the big 10 tight end of the year.

And he was a John Mackey award finalist. That’s the national award for the best tight end in the country, which is crazy because I remember going and talking to Cade Stover back when he was still in high school at Lexington one day. And we’re talking about Bill Davis. If you guys remember that name, the former linebackers coach and his future as a linebacker and how he loved James Zoranaitis and all that stuff. don’t know if we were sitting there having that conversation that day and I went, hey, hey, Cade, you’re going to be the best tight end in the Big Ten one day.

He’d have probably looked at me like I was crazy and then told me to get out and then made me go work on his farm or something. don’t know. But it’s that level to the point you’re making of Titan is a developmental position. mean, that’s. Kate Stover is the walking embodiment of this is a developmental position because he wasn’t even on his radar when he committed to Ohio State. He ends up being the most productive Titan by far of the Ryan Day era. Let’s take a quick break.

And then we’re going to get into the present, which again, it’s, think we’re taking the long way around to go. think this is going to be all interesting, but also I don’t know how to talk about it. So we’ll figure out a way to do that when we come back from the break here on Buckeye Talk.

Stephen Means (17:02.412)

We’re talking tight ends for Ohio State heading into the 2024 season. The pass is an interesting conversation of we don’t throw the ball to tight ends here to we have one of the best tight ends in the country and he’s very involved and he’s productive and he’s impact player for us. So what does that mean in 2024 when that player is now gone? You’ve got Uber options and wide receivers to get the ball to running backs to get the ball to your quarterbacks are going to run a little bit more.

And it’s like outside of offensive line and quarterback outside of the immediate, like who’s going to be the starter at some of those spots and then are they going to be good? The only other question I think people will have about this offense is tight end. And what is this tight end going to be able to do for Ohio state in 2024 where the names are G Scott, another guy.

who came in playing a different position in transition. came in as a top 100 recruit playing wide receiver. He transitions to tight end in his second year. And now it seems like he’s ready to be the starter for you. You bring in Will Casmeric from Ohio. You’ve got Jelani Thurman as a former top 100 recruit. You’ve got Bennett Christian who’s entering his third year after coming off of last year where he was ineligible for, I think he took a banned substance. I think that’s the reason why he was ineligible last year. Those are the names at the top of that list.

This isn’t a hey, is this an impressive list conversation, Andrew? It’s a what do you think Ohio State’s going to be able to do with these tight ends? Do you think they have a formula here? Do you think they have a group here where if they want to do 12 personnel, if they want to do 13 personnel, they’re going to be capable of doing that or some of these guys still a year away. And it’s just going to be kind of we see a lot of G Scott as a starting tight end and everybody else kind of gets in where they fit in.

Andrew (18:48.462)

To me, that was why they went and got Will Kazmeric, right? Like to me, Will Kazmeric might as well just be nicknamed 12 Personnel because that’s what he allowed you the ability to do, They went out and they got a blocker. They went out and they got a player that they knew could block, that they knew could handle defensive ends, that could handle blocking big time backers in a run game or something like that. That’s why they went out and got Will Kazmeric.

because not only does Will Kazmeric give you that ability and something that maybe nobody else on that in that unit has, you get G Scott now with Kazmeric. There’s two. All right. Now you know, you got two guys that can play. Everybody loves Jelani Thurman. Now let’s see it. Like, like, like, let’s see it into action. Everybody loves talking about Jelani Thurman and what a freak he is and how he could change his offense. Like let’s see it. Ben a Christian.

he’s coming back after a year off, like, let’s see it. You’re not really counting on the freshmen. So there’s four. So you have a room that’s loaded with six. And I think that that’s kind of what the Will Casmeric edition signaled to me was that, yes, you get a blocker, but now you have a little bit more versatility because otherwise you would have had G Scott and then to just like, kind of like two shoulder shrugs of like, don’t know what we got.

And it might be great. Benekristian might be a really good player and Jelani Thurman might be a really good player, but it’s potential right now. It’s not fact that Jelani Thurman is going to be a stud or Jelani Thurman is going to be the next Kyle Pitts, right? Or something crazy. it’s, that’s not where we’re at with those guys. So yeah, I think 12 personnel is, is absolutely going to be part of their offense a lot this year because I think G Scott and Will Kazmarek have

how to play styles that allows you to do

Stephen Means (20:53.869)

Bennett Christian looks like he’d be a hell of a good inline tight end if that hits blocking tight end and maybe Since he wasn’t able to get on the field last year after being ruled ineligible Maybe if he had been maybe they don’t go get Wilcas Mary because Bennett Christians ready to go But to your point, I think you go get Wilcas America kind of been He’s a little bit more of a sure thing in terms of he’s got some experience playing college football I think the conversation I want to have about Jelani Thurman

is where I want to go next with this. And I’m going to use him for the best case and worst case scenarios or realistic things here. I’m almost going to use him to have this conversation. I think best case scenario is one of these guys is like 85 % of what Cade Stover was as a weapons threat.

I think that’s a realistic best case. Even they’re not going to have the numbers that Kate Stover got because as we just got done talking about those numbers are opportunity meeting readiness. But Kate Stover was just if he’s ready, but the opportunity is not there. didn’t have those numbers. The opportunity is there, but he’s not ready. He doesn’t have those numbers. You need both of those things. I don’t know if there’s going to be the opportunity to have those numbers unless you’re starting to project injuries, which we’re not going to do here. We’re not going to say, this guy’s going to miss time. That’s just not how we do things.

I think Jelani Thurman, if that hits, I think it’s awesome. I just don’t know what that means. Again, we coming back to that concept in a world where Jeremiah Smith and Emeka Abouka and Carnell Tate and Brandon Ennis exist and Jaden Ballard exists and Quinchon Judkins exists and Trevion Henderson exists. And apparently Caleb Downs as a running back exist. You know, there’s just, there’s a lot of mouths to feed. So I don’t know what.

Jelani Thurman turning into. Sam Laporta level, right, or. Michael Mayer level, I don’t know what that looks like from a production standpoint, even if the overall impact and overall just like how good he is, is always there. I think that’s the best case scenario is you have a guy that good, even if you’re not necessarily getting the ball as much as that guy would get the ball if he was playing at Iowa or Notre Dame or literally any other program in the Big Ten.

Stephen Means (23:15.744)

I think worst case scenario is G. Scott’s the only tight end who’s ready to play. Because even with Will Kaczmarek, he’s still jumping up a level. And really you’re jumping up like five levels because you’re going from a Mac school, a middle of the road Mac school. You know why had it that way. No, seriously, you’re going from a competitive middle of the road Mac school to one of the four best programs in college football. That’s not a one step jump.

Andrew (23:29.495)

Easy, easy Stephen Means.

Stephen Means (23:45.228)

while we think, okay, it can be quality there. And maybe there’s a chance that, and I’ve been wondering this with that 2021 recruiting class, are there guys out there who, because of how things were, we were in the middle of pandemic, they weren’t able to showcase themselves to the fullest. So maybe there’s just some guys out there who were a little bit lower in the rankings than they would have been had they had an opportunity to come to some of these showcases, camp at Ohio State in June, going into their senior year, those types of things. I’m wondering if Will Casmeric might end up being a guy who fits that mold where he ended up at

But what he ended up at a Big Ten school, if he had had a normal going summer, going into his senior year of high school, that’s just something that I’ve been thinking about now. These 2021 guys are in their fourth year of college football. How many of those guys exist in the world, especially at Ohio State, whereas you’re learning Andrew, there’s always the guys on the back end in your state that late boomers, they show up in

Andrew (24:37.944)

Shout out Jay Cook, yeah.

Stephen Means (24:40.512)

there’s before their senior year and they earn an offer. Shout out to Jake Cook. know, Jermaine Matthews was kind of in this mold as well. It always happens. And I’m wondering if Wilkows Merrick could have been one of those players. But still, he spent the last two years playing in the Mac and now he’s coming to the big boys. And is there going to be a transition? Is there going to be a learning curve that has to be learned? And this is still a developmental position. Bennett Christian missed a whole year being able to play in actual football games. What does that mean when he gets a chance to play in games? Is Jelani Thurman still a year away?

from being able to be what we think Jelani Thurman is going to be, or even a percentage of that. So if that’s the case, and G -Scott’s your only option, I don’t think it necessarily impacts you from a production standpoint, because as I just mentioned before, I’m not expecting the tight end this year to have 36 catches or 41 catches, but does it limit options?

And we’re going to talk about this next week as we’re talking through positions of Jim Knowles just has options of the 11 people he wants to put on the football field on any given snap and dictate things. Chip Kelly is pretty creative, right?

And so the more players you have that you feel like are ready and can impact the game for you, the more options you have. So if G Scott’s the only one that’s ready, that takes away 12 personnel. That takes away 13 personnel for a guy who’s coming in here really to improve the run game. Cause the passing game is fine. He’s really coming in here to improve the run game. And so if that takes that element off the table, what does that mean in goal line situations? What does that mean when you want to go 12 personnel on second and 10 in the middle of the field, just to throw a deep shot? If you can’t.

execute those things because you don’t have those options. And I think both of those situations, this is the most realistic, I think scenarios I’ve painted through the time that we’ve done this so far of what the potential ceiling of a room is and what the potential floor of the room is where the potential lowest floor possible isn’t that far off from what the floor already is. And the potential ceiling, highest ceiling possible isn’t that far from what the ceiling is because it doesn’t, I don’t think impact

Stephen Means (26:42.676)

this team’s ability to win games, but it does impact Chip Kelly’s ability to maximize how many different ways he wants to attack a team.

Andrew (26:53.558)

Yeah, best case scenario, I think for this unit is you get a lot of players that can do a lot of different things and the downside isn’t that great or isn’t that like great of a drop off, I should say. Like the downside isn’t that, you know, negative. Like if G Scott is you’re receiving tight end and you know, you can throw him out there and he’s your number one tight end. He’s your best all around tight end and you’re not really feeling uncomfortable with him.

You know, Wilcas Marek is kind of your run grader, right? He’s the blocking tight end. He’s the guy that can go out and also catch passes too. You know, Bennett Christian takes a leap and there’s not really, you know, benefit there. And he’s a good third tight end or, know, maybe Jelani Thurman takes that jump and he’s now your third tight end. And he’s just that matchup freak where, you know, he’s learning the offense. He’s getting bigger. He’s getting stronger. He’s getting faster. He’s learning how to play in the past game. He’s learning how to block at the college level.

Right? Like that’s the best case scenario. The worst case scenario, I think, would be pretty much summed up by the phrase one dimensional is, you know, what if Jelani, you can’t throw him out there because he can’t like this is like this was this is a maybe less of a stretch, more realistic option of what we talked about with like Jeremiah Smith, where it’s like, like what if the blocking is an issue and now all of sudden your tip in your pitches basically because you can’t run to his side?

Well, what happens if Jelani can’t block and now all of sudden you have the choice between we’re going to take off a receiver and we’re going to put Jelani kind of in the slot or we’re going to put Jelani out there and everybody knows that we’re either not running to that side or more likely we’re probably just going to pass it. That’s not great. Bennett Christian maybe doesn’t take that leap because he missed a whole year and he needs some extra time. Will Casmare can’t really give you anything in the passing game. And it’s another thing where you’re tipping your pitches again.

G Scott doesn’t give you that upside of Cade Stover and you know, maybe he’s, you know, just kind of a similar option to Cade from what you had last year. And then the room didn’t really evolve. And I think that that would be the worst case scenario. I don’t anticipate that’s going to happen. What’s that like Simpsons quote where Mr. Burns is talking about like the softball team and he’s like one calamity, maybe two calamities, perhaps.

Andrew (29:13.464)

Three, it’s like you just kind of keep going down the line of like all the different bad things that could happen. And it’s like, all right, maybe like Bennett Christian isn’t ready to play. But then that means that Jelani Thurman is a stud or Jelani Thurman is ready to play and is ready to be a third tight end. Right. And then you’re not feeling that hurt so bad. Or maybe, you know, Wilcas Marek is your best all around tight end because G Scott.

you has less blocking ability than Will does. now you’re throwing Will out there and you’re saying, hey, we’re not, this could be a run or a pass, doesn’t matter. So I think that the best and worst case scenarios are very singular, right? Like I think that they’re very pronounced and they’re, I think they’re very easy to point

Stephen Means (30:03.34)

What’s a question you have about Ohio State’s 2024 Titan Room that isn’t something obvious or in your face? And again, I think this is probably the more complicated one of any of the ones you’ve done so far, so I will acknowledge that.

Andrew (30:18.134)

Is Jelani Thurman the number one tight end on this team by the end of the year? That’s the question that I have. Because I think about the room that we have, like, cause again, I want to say I’ve made this kind of commentary with this, with everything that we’ve done.

We have talked about the tight end room a lot is, you can we’ll Casmeric play? can G Scott take over the Kate Silver roll? Right. There’s all these questions that we have talked about. But one of the ones that I just I can’t seem to get out of my head. Is it’s Solani Thurman, the best tight end in this room by November like this, we have talked about this with with Julian Sand, and we have basically said, hey, does it make sense?

early in the year to just say, Hey, if Julian sand is the most talented quarterback in this room and can get you to a point by the end of the year where the offense is best with Julian sand and you go into the playoffs with Julian sand, is that the best course of action? Well, I wonder if that’s the same thing with Jelani Thurman. Like I wonder if Jelani Thurman is the best option that you have because

He is six foot seven and or six foot six or whatever. He’s six. It depends on whatever listing you look at. He’s that and he’s like almost 260 pounds. He listed at 258. You wonder if that kind of receiving threat is enough to give him a boost over some of these other guys because, you know, Ohio State should have a better offensive line than they did last year. And Ohio State.

will have a better running back situation and running game than they did last year. That’s a guarantee. You have Quinn -Sean Judkins, you didn’t have him last year, the running backs are gonna be

Andrew (32:17.152)

So I’m kind of wondering here, like, is the upgrades in the offensive line and the upgrades in the backfield, is that enough to make you look at Jelani Thurman and go, you know what, he might not be Wilcas Maricas as a blocker yet, but going into his second year, this man can play and this man can give us some real, real interesting matchup combinations on offense, right? He can stretch the seam.

he can do things in the red zone that nobody else on this tight end room can do. So that’s something that I’m wondering about. I’m wondering if Jelani Thurman, tight end one, we’ll

Stephen Means (33:02.604)

What is G Scott’s ceiling? That’s my question because I think just physically he doesn’t look like a guy who’s supposed to be your Titan one, right? And it’s, it’s, it’s with all due respect to what he is listed at six, four, three, two 43. He’s, he’s been a quality player here and he’s one of the leaders of the team. And it’s been cool. Obviously we were in the building a

and June and Andrew. And so we’re seeing him like all the time, him and Trevion Henderson, who have grown kind of close to those two and Mecca and Bouk as well. But those two have really grown close over the last couple of years. It’s been cool to really watch. And G Scott has really come into his own as a leader in this program. So he matters. He matters. And we’re talking and that’s culture stuff, right? G Scott matters to the culture. And I’ve grown an appreciation for that.

But I’ve also wondered, what does that have to do with the 60 minutes you’re playing football on Saturday? Right? That’s because that’s what we’re trying to boil this down to. And is there gear G Scott gets to this year that makes him the perfect tight end for what this team is? Right. It doesn’t make him the best tight end in program history. It doesn’t mean he’s going to be better than what Kate Stover was. But. And looking at 22 and 23.

Caged over was very good. He was also the perfect tight end for what they needed that year. They needed a weapon, a receiving weapon because they lost Jackson Smith, the jiggler in the slot very early on, which means you had a bunch of young guys, very talented, but they’re also young. But also CJ Stroud is awesome. Everybody on the field was a threat when CJ Stroud was your quarterback. Everybody. And the fact that Caged over had 36 catches.

It’s proof of that. And then last year, Emeka Ibuka is dealing with injuries. Julian Fleming isn’t as involved in the passing game. It can’t just go to Marvin all day, right? Unless you’re playing Penn State, then it can’t because Penn State just had no answer for him. But you need other options. And then you mentioned it earlier, Cade Stover became Kyle’s safety net. So for two years, as good as Cade Stover was, he was also necessary for that offense to have any level of function.

Stephen Means (35:15.146)

Especially last year. I don’t know if that’s the case this year because you got Emeka, got Cornell, you got Brandon Innis, you got Jeremiah Smith, you got Trayvon Henderson, Quinn -Chang Judkins. You just got a lot of options. So I don’t know if the tight end has to be a receiving threat every day. But also, G. Scott’s made some pretty good catches over the last two years, right? He had a really good catch against Rutgers for the touchdown. had some quality plays as well.

But for what he is as a tight end, as a utility guy, I think he just might be the perfect tight end, both from a culturistic standpoint, locker room standpoint, but also just what they want to do on Saturday. And so it’s. He might just be ready for this moment, and then it’s again, the obvious question is, is there a number two guy so they can do 12 personnel? And is there a number three guy so they can 13 personnel? But that’s a personnel question. If we’re talking simply about just is the number one guy in the room.

kind of ready for the moment and does he maximize this this offense in a way that maybe you got to think outside the box to get to because I’m with you with Jelani Thurman he’s got the highest upside of anybody in the room but what does that mean in 2024 if he doesn’t reach that upside in 2024 I think G Scott we’re gonna do a driving the bus pod obviously Andrew as we typically do he’s on my short list of guys I’m considering of driving the bus for in

He might just maximize his offense in a way that makes him the perfect tight end for Ohio State in 2024. So, John, this is G Scott. Also, like I said, he matters to what Ohio State’s been building

in 2024. That’s the present. Again, this is going to be a shorter pod. It’s just a different conversation that we’re going to have. It’s also just not as many names, right, as some of these other groups have been. So it’s not going to be as long as a pod. We talked about the past. We’ve talked about the present and now we’re going to look forward to the future. We’re obviously we’ll touch on some recruiting stuff. We’re going to touch on another player that Andrew’s really intrigued and I know that he probably wants to talk about, but then also just expectations for what production looks like as an Ohio State tight end here on Buckeye Talk.

Stephen Means (37:22.028)

And we’re back on book. talked so Andrew, I’m going to let you choose where we go first in this conversation. As we talk about the future and we do some projection. Do we want to talk about the Ohio State recruits in the 2025 class and what they could be bringing to the table? Do we want to talk about just overall expectations for the room? We’re going to talk about all of them. I’m just going to let you pick which one we do first. Do we want to talk about what the expectation going forward is with Keenan Bailey as a leader of the room? Or do you want to talk about the marrying wedding?

Andrew (37:50.926)

Well, was going to say, yeah, let’s let’s I think it makes more sense to talk about the 24 kids. So you have Max LeBlanc and DeMarion Wooden. Max LeBlanc is definitely more of your kind of prototypical tight end hand in the dirt. He’s your typical interesting or, you know, kind of just. Not to be boring, but like your run of the mill tight end, right? Like that’s that’s kind of what Max LeBlanc is. You know, he’s a he’s a good football player. You know, he’s a guy who they got him. He’s he’s originally Canadian.

They got him out of the Baylor school down in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Number 258 overall recruit in the class, chose Ohio State over Bama, chose Ohio State over a couple other pretty good programs. He visited Michigan right before he committed to Ohio State. There was some interest in this guy and Ohio State won

That’s the block. 6 ‘3 and a half, 222, he’s obviously gonna have to put on some big time weight. Basically with tight ends, especially at this kind of level of college football, unless you are a Michael Mayer, unless you are a, know, Brock Bowers, unless you are a Kyle Pitts, it’s, hey, you signed in the class of 2024, see you in two years, right? And that’s kind of where we’re at. DeMarian Wood.

DeMarian Whitten is an interesting thing because I think he gives Ohio State an option to have a tight end that they don’t really use, that they don’t really have. Like DeMarian Whitten could very well and some Buckeye fans maybe, you know, brace for this. He could be kind of like the Jack of the offense in a weird type of way where you look at it you go, he doesn’t really fit a tight end because he’s not

But he’s also not a receiver. How do we do this? And I think that that’s a really interesting place to be. I like you think of maybe some big, big, big receivers at the college level that, maybe you could turn into. And I, I just, I like the idea of DeMarian Whitten. It was hard. We didn’t really see a ton out of him in.

Andrew (40:11.374)

like in spring practice. BZ what? Yep. I was gonna say. Yep. And I just, I wonder like with Demerian, is this a guy who can be like, I’ve been struggling with a comp for him, you know, because there’s, there’s just, there’s not a lot of players that are this kind

Stephen Means (40:12.948)

because he wasn’t here. I see a guy who’s not in, he’s still in high school.

Andrew (40:39.862)

receiver tight end. The guy that I think of is Chase Claypool. Like I kind of st to wonder like, all right, Claypool was a bigger guy, but he still played receiver. And I wonder like, is he just Chase Claypool that’s going to play more of an inline role or a specific type of role? Maybe where you throw him out there in the slot because like Chase Claypool came into college

like 64, 65, 205 pounds, DeMarian Whitten, 64, 215. Like now you look at Chase Claypool and where he’s at, Chase Claypool is a lot bigger than that, right? Chase Claypool is currently listed in the NFL at 64, 238. So is that just where DeMarian Whitten is, where he ends up at 64, 235, 64, 240? And that’s who DeMarian Whitten’s gonna be?

and it’s up to kind of the team on how they want to use him. just there’s so many options that you have there with DeMarion Witten and I’m curious to see how they want to use him because again, you don’t want to just let a talent like that go away because that man can catch, right? I think that that is the the number one thing to note about him. Like when he was playing at Glenville, his receiving ability was was off the charts, right? Like this you look at this guy and go, wow, this guy’s a receiver.

And Ohio State kind of use him as that tight end. he going to start in the room? There’s a lot of different things to kind of focus on here. So this is going to be a big year or two of development for him just to see how his body develops in the weight room and to see where he makes more sense to end up at. Because I think if he’s that tight end, he gives you that vertical threat down the seam that Ohio State maybe has not had in a couple of

Stephen Means (43:38.988)

I think he’s a project. And I think he’s gonna start off in the wide receiver room, if I’m remembering that correctly. And he will probably be transitioning into the tight end room at some point, but he’s 18 years old, he’s six foot four, 215 pounds. And it seems like that’s a kid who’s physically just going to look like a much different human being in a couple of years than he looks like right now. And so I almost

I’m with you. think he’s an intriguing prospect, but I almost want to go. Let’s press pause on a DeMarian Whitten conversation for two years. And then let’s just see what he looks like when he’s 20 physically. Cause I think that’s going to decide what room he’s in. Cause to be honest with you, that’s kind of what happened with G. Scott. were G. Scott talked about that when he first made the decision as if there was already some conversations of maybe long -term he’s going to end up being a tight end and

He just, wanted to be a wide receiver first. I mean, he was one of the best wide receivers in the country. So I get it. And just the way he physically was developing his ability to keep weight off or easily gain weight, all that factored into how he ended up transitioning to tight in after his first year in the program. And I’m wondering whether G Scott’s path is going to be similar to what the Marion Whitten’s pass is where he’s a wide receiver right now,

When he goes through his first full spring, his winter workouts next year, January, I’m wondering if then he makes a transition just because physically, Mother nature took over and he just physically looks like a different person. And then this it’s intriguing as a wide receiver, it’s intriguing as a tight end, but what’s most intriguing is what is an 18 year old kid who’s still very much growing, going to look like six months from now? Who knows?

based on the nutrition plan they’re gonna have him on, but then also what does Mother Nature do? Okay, those are the 2024 guys. What about the 2025 guys where Ohio State landed two tight ends in back -to -back years, where one of them’s a national guy, and again, the other guy’s an Ohio

Andrew (45:36.79)

Yeah, well, for months I had sat on this pod and I think I don’t, you know, I guess I was technically wrong, but at the time I wasn’t wrong that Ohio State was only going to take one tight end. They were really kind of only set on one tight end. was Nate Roberts, Nate Roberts, a former Notre Dame Decommit. He had a lot of offers. You know, he’s from Oklahoma. Oklahoma was kind of bearing down on him. Ole Miss was kind of bearing down on him. This is a really talented football player.

And I think he definitely fits that type of, you know, I guess maybe Cade Stover type role where you look at and you go, wow, like this guy is, you know, you see the catching ability, you see the room for growth. think, Steven, you were out there when Keenan Bailey had all of his tight ends. were out there. Man’s got a type that he likes. He likes tight ends that can grow into their bodies. were all lanky.

I mean, they were all anywhere from like six, four to probably like six, seven, the guys that were out there. know, he, he likes the tight ends that can kind of build into their body. Savi and St. Clair is a big Nate Roberts guy. He was kind of focusing on him for a while. Roberts top 150 recruit number seven, tight end in the composite rankings, a really good football player and Ohio state was content and they were just going to say, you know what? Here we go. This is our guy. We got him hip, hip, hooray. We’re good.

Well, then Brody Lennon shows up and Brody Lennon is, or I guess technically at the time was a very, very

Stephen Means (47:07.403)

Mm -hmm.

Andrew (47:17.324)

I guess underrated recruit. mean, you look at kind of where his ranking was like he began as a three star. He was in like the eight hundreds, I think, when when Ohio State offered him or when, you know, when this whole kind of situation came about because his situation, as we talked about on the recruiting pods, was pretty similar to Jake Cook’s. He got a he got an offer on June 13th from Ohio State. He visited the following weekend and then he committed very soon after

He committed on June 27th. So two weeks after he gets the offer, he commits like this, this thing moved quick and Ohio State, I think looked at this situation and went, you know what, we’re good with only one tight end. I think we’ll manage. And then they saw Brody Lennon and went, okay, this is a different type of breed. You know, he’s six, four, 220. He’s a little bit smaller. At least he’s listed as a little bit smaller than, than Nate Roberts.

But this is a guy who you see the athletic ability and you start to wonder like, okay, is this a guy who can do maybe a little bit different things for you? Maybe not just line up in that type of role. You watch his tape, he lines up as an H back. He lines up as that kind of old school, not full back, but almost like a wing back, if that makes sense. He’s lining up behind the tackle on the outside. He’s not lining up next to the tackle, he’s lining

kind of in the slot in a two point stance, you know, where he’s in a receiver position, he’s just in line with the line of scrimmage. Or he’s in a, like, if you look at like a pistol strong formation or a pistol loaded right, left, whatever, where you have a backfield where the running backs behind the quarterback, and then you have a guy that’s next to the quarterback or a guy that’s in an up back position, like you would see on a punt. That’s where he’s played. And that’s an interesting kind of wrinkle that I wonder if Ohio State

can get out of Brody Lennon, but yeah, really good football player. And as we saw, Ohio State was planning on only taking one, and he was good enough to where they looked at it and went, well, we need to take this kid because we can’t let him get out of the state of Ohio, and that’s

Stephen Means (49:29.484)

So let’s wrap this. Let’s keep it under an hour. I say that now we’re about to go another 20 minutes.

Stephen Means (49:39.788)

Let’s do this first. Let’s let’s play that game over under and we’ll and this is loose, right? You don’t have to be locked into whatever number you pick because we’re going to do our market down Mondays and we’re going to do that that stuff so you can lock in your numbers there. But this is just to get you thinking and get your juices flowing a little bit. Over under 20 catches.

Stephen Means (50:01.708)

for whoever leads Ohio State’s tight end room in catches this season. And you’re not allowed to pick 20, it’s gotta be over or under 20. Okay.

Andrew (50:10.862)

Over, I think G. Scott goes over. I think that G. Scott is going to be your guy that when you look at the stats at the end of the year, you can say, well, he’s pretty clearly the leading receiver in terms of the tight end room. Cade Stover last year had 41 for 576 as we talked about earlier. G. Scott had 10 for 70. So your top two tight ends, even though it was very heavily

towards one tight end. 80 % of those numbers went to one tight end. You had 51 catches, 646 yards, you had six

To me, you’re not gonna dip below that. think the more interesting number would be 30. Is that, like, because at that point the question is, is Will Kaczmarek enough? Is G. Scott maybe a step down enough from Cade and or is Will Kaczmarek enough to maybe take some of those numbers away? I don’t know. That’s a tighter one I would still lean over, but just barely at 30. But 20 I’m taking over, I think G. Scott.

is probably going to have maybe a slightly less effective year than Cade Stover did last

Stephen Means (51:28.62)

I would take the under very easily if you’re over under 30. I think I might take the over with 20.

25 is where I get because you’re almost like counting touches at this point, right? because

So I’m only gonna say this because you said yesterday you say you said there’s gonna be two five to one thousand yard receivers. Okay, so that’s a least 50 touches per receiver, right? Because I mean you’re not gonna have a thousand yards and have 25 catches and then you’ve got Do you think Ohio State’s gonna have two one thousand yard running backs or at least two running backs for at least 800 yards?

Andrew (52:10.126)

Do I? To 800 yards. I’m gonna say yes with 800 yards. I think they’re gonna have 800

Stephen Means (52:10.784)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (52:14.284)

So that’s at least 150 touches there and then the quarterback might be involved. So that’s at least you got to put a number on that maybe Not counting the sacks the quarterback ones it 75 times this year in 16 games

Andrew (52:32.758)

That might be high. I feel like that could be high.

Stephen Means (52:36.14)

Okay, if they play 16 games, 75 runs per game. That’s only 4 .6 runs per game. I don’t think that’s that crazy.

Andrew (52:47.04)

Yeah, yeah, maybe, yeah, I suppose.

Stephen Means (52:48.492)

Yeah, so 75 runs for a quarterback.

And these again, these are loose right now. We’re going to have a deeper numbers conversation when we get closer to season in August, when we started doing our market down Monday. I’m just, I’m trying to figure out where the touches come from. So I think I’m comfortable anywhere between 15 to like 23 catches for the tight end this year. And I think that’s fine because again, this brings back to the initial point I was making is that might be all that’s necessary when you look at all this talent, which I think this year might be a

gauge for what the Titan usage just might be going forward because well I think what we’ve seen the first five years is two extremes. We’ve seen the Titan is never involved really, know, 19, 14 catches one year, 13 catches the next year and then we saw caged over extreme 36 and 41 catches. I think Jeremy Ruckert’s 26 catches were 309 yards and three touchdowns. I think in that range

is a realistic expectation for what Ohio State’s number one tight end does going forward in a world where you have the wide receivers that they have. When you have, as we talked about on the Tuesday pilot with the running backs, maybe there’s multiple running backs getting involved. And then if Ryan Day’s philosophy on quarterbacks has changed where they’re going to run the quarterback going forward, anywhere from 18 to 28 catches, 250 to 350 yards,

three or four, maybe you get maybe the touchdowns you get like the six if you start using them more in the red zone. But I think that’s what I that’s the conclusion I came through and I spent an hour talking it through with you. Jeremy Rutgers 2021 season stats are I think the best gauge for what Ohio State’s tight end is going to be on a year to year basis. And are there years where there’s more extreme shore in either direction? But for the most part, that’s where I land.

Stephen Means (54:48.95)

with Ohio State’s tight end. Do you think the room is healthy? I’m not gonna ask championship caliber, because it’s not the same. Championship caliber at tight end and at wide receiver and at quarterback and at running back aren’t the same. So I’ll ask, do you think what Keenan Bailey has done through two recruiting classes so far in the way he developed Kate Stover, do you think the room is healthy and headed in the right direction?

Andrew (55:08.694)

Yeah, I do. I think with the additions of Witten and LeBlanc and then you add Roberts and Lennon, I think that that’s a good start to kind of where this room is headed. You mentioned Cade Stover last year. Yeah, the room is absolutely healthy. The room is good. I think the room is good. Championship quality, like I...

The answer is no, but it’s like, who cares? As weird as that is to say about a room for a team that wants to a championship. It’s like, man, if you were to pick a position on the offensive side of the ball, that’s not championship quality. It’s tight end, right? You can like that. It’s pretty clearly tight end. And then, you know, it’s all right. You probably want quarterback and then it’s all right. Is it offensive line? Is it receivers? You know, you can have all those debates, but you know, I think.

The answer is no, that it’s not championship quality because what would championship quality, like Michigan has a championship quality tight end room, but I don’t think anybody’s gonna say that Michigan has a better offense than Ohio State, Like, I’m trying to think. There’s like the usual suspects, like I know Iowa just lost Eric All. I believe they have Luke Lachey coming back. So like that might be a championship quality tight end room with him, right?

the kid from, Notre Dame, what’s his name? Mitchell Evans. like that is a championship quality tight end room. Cause that might be one of the best tight ends in college football. Like Loveland in Michigan might be one of the best tight ends in college football. Like Georgia had a championship quality tight end room last year because they had Brock Bowers. But notice that I’m saying some of these programs that are on this list and you’re looking at them going, no, they don’t have a championship quality offense. You

Like I just think it’s the least indicative of success at tight end. I think it’s more of a luxury to have a great tight end than it is a necessity. So no, the room is not championship quality, but it’s still a really good room. And I don’t think that’s, you I don’t think many people would be able to, you know, super disagree with that unless you think G Scott is the second coming of Sam Laporta or George Kittle

Andrew (57:27.412)

know, Kyle Pitts or whoever, which I don’t think anybody’s going to say. So I, the room’s in a good

Stephen Means (57:35.372)

healthy room in a room that I think might have our guy at the top of it who best fits what this Ohio State offense is going to be. There are still questions what the depth of the room looks like and just the overall usage on a year to year basis when as I mentioned before back in 2019 you were living in a world where Ohio State’s Titans got the ball 14 times. That was the leading guy and last year Ohio State’s Titan you flipped those numbers you got the ball 41 times. That was poetic.

What is it? How many times are they going to get it this year? And is that room going to be effective in a way that allows Ohio State to maximize what it wants to do offensively? And that just doesn’t mean in the production it gives, but in some of the looks we like, we have grown accustomed to seeing from Ohio State, the 12th personnel, the 11th personnel, the 13th personnel, everything under the sun, maybe even 22 personnel, who knows? Everything seems like it’s on the table, but a lot of it is going to depend on the overall growth of that tight end room. Get the text 614 -350

offensive line is up next as we close out the offensive side of the state of the room series in the next week. We’ll flip sides and it’s Jim Knowles who’s on deck defensive line linebackers, cornerbacks and safeties will be all next week and obviously we’ll close out next week with fun pods talking video games before we head off to Indy for the Big Ten media days in two weeks from now.

Stefan Christnik will be joining us very soon. We’re really excited to get going with a young group. Listen, we’re like the wide receiver room, man. We’re young. We’re young and trying to prove ourselves. And I’m the Emeka Buka because you guys kind of know who I am. All those guys can be, they can fight over who’s Jeremiah.

Andrew (59:14.658)

I’d rather be Jeremiah Smith.

Stephen Means (59:17.868)

There’s the man who keeps trying to tell us that Mecca Buka is good, as if we don’t already know what Mecca Buka is good. But like I said, one more offensive group to go and it’s Justin Fry and the offensive line. Get the text 614 -350 -3315. Two week free trial, 399 after that. And for Andrew Gillis, I’m Stephen Means and that was another episode of Buckeye Talk.