Why Ohio State’s latest potential home run coaching hire is so important: Buckeye Talk podcast

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The 2024 season is right around the corner as Ohio State enters a pivotal year of the Ryan Day era.

It’s the perfect time to set a tone and discuss what Day has accomplished as head coach, using that to project what the future holds, especially in a season where OSU has clearly pushed all its chips into the middle of the table. In doing so, we at Buckeye Talk will spend the next two weeks breaking down the program, position by position, looking at its past, present and future under Day.

Up next, Stephen Means and Andrew Gillis talk linebackers as former three-time All-American James Laurinaitis takes over.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk. This is your Tuesday pod, day two of Defensive Talk.

and day I don’t know I’m losing track of time here man just because how things work here but obviously we’re continuing our state of the program series we spent all last week talking offensive positions we’re breaking down each position by position looking at the past we’re looking at the present we’re looking at the future of the ryan day era which means the past is 2019 through 2023 the present is obviously what’s upcoming this year in 2024 and then the future is everything beyond that we spent last week looking at offense this is your Tuesday pod Monday we spent that day looking

at Larry Johnson in the defensive line where...

which I think it wasn’t a fascinating conversation. Obviously talking about where the future is probably the most important part of that concept because Larry Johnson is older and obviously it’s that’s a constant conversation every off season is how much longer is Larry Johnson going to do that? And so as he continues to build a 2025 recruiting class that suggests that he might be around for a while here, given some of the talent in that class, it’s going to be interesting to see how long he’s around as well, but also the future of what Ohio State’s defensive line might look like. That was our Monday pod.

It’s Tuesday, which means we’re continuing to move backwards with the defensive side of the ball. Today’s linebackers, which I think, Andrew, we were talking before we started recording here, and it’s like, this is probably the weirdest one that we’re gonna do for a bunch of different reasons, right? The linebacker situation at Ohio State has drastically changed.

Stephen Means (02:27.102)

since the day Ryan Day took over. They’ve had a couple of assistant coaches have that role. Al Washington in 19 and 20 and 21 was the first linebacker coach of the Ryan Day era.

And then he left off and ended up at Michigan where he still is known. No, he excuse me. He came from Michigan and went to Notre Dame where he’s now I think their defensive line coach after they did not retain out of Washington. They brought in Jim Knowles in 2022 who has spent the last two years as both the defensive coordinator and the linebackers coach. But now he’s just a defensive coordinator. He’s overseeing the entire defense. He is literally.

As Ryan Day likes to say, the head coach of the defense. Meanwhile, James Laurinaitis is entering his first year as Ohio State’s linebacker coach after spending last year in a graduate assistant role. The former three time All -American linebacker at Ohio State is now trying to develop the next All -American linebacker. As we do, as we have been doing, we start off with the past, 2019 to 2023. And this is why it’s weird.

linebacker play is very different in this time and place in the universe than it was even to when James Laurinaitis Andrew was playing linebacker and he has said as much

Andrew (03:43.566)

Yeah, you know, you look at some of the linebackers that have kind of come through over the years, you know, I think there’s a lot of people, I think myself included, where you think of like AJ Hawk and Bobby Carpenter and you just, you know, Anthony Schlegel. And you just think of like the big tall shoulder pads and six foot three, 250 pound linebackers where like, if you’re six foot three and 250 pounds today, it’s like, you know, get ready to learn pass rush moves, buddy.

And Malik Harrison, when he was at Ohio State, I mean, even just a couple of years ago, I mean, he was six foot three, 240. Ohio State is not gonna have a linebacker that big. Go look at their recruiting class. I mean, maybe one of those guys grows significantly, but they’re not gonna have a guy that’s 240, right? So things have changed and things can evolve. And I think as the sport evolves, I think as Ohio State’s defensive coordinators evolve, I think as they change defensive coordinators, frankly.

Stephen Means (04:39.938)

You

Andrew (04:41.262)

things change and and this this was maybe the most unique one that we’re gonna have to do for a couple of different reasons because I think the position has changed a little bit you know what they’re looking for what they’re asking for in those different type of things but you know additionally it’s you can’t just grade somebody on tackles or whatever because you know tackles don’t necessarily mean that you’re a great linebacker so

Stephen Means (04:43.394)

This was maybe the most unique one that we’re going to have to do.

for a couple of different reasons because I think the position has changed a little bit, what they’re looking for, what they’re asking for in those different types of things. But additionally, you can’t just grade somebody on tackles or whatever because tackles don’t necessarily mean that you’re a great linebacker. There’s a lot of different things that go into this. So I think we’ve been working off this criteria of questions and I’m not

Andrew (05:08.654)

There’s a lot of different things that go into this, but yeah, very interesting position group to evaluate.

Stephen Means (05:18.992)

sure they work just at face value at linebacker the same way. Just some history though. They’ve had four linebackers get drafted in the Ryan Day era. Malik Harrison was the first after he spent his final year at Ohio State in 2019. He goes 98th in the 2020 NFL draft. And then Pete Warner in 2021 goes 60th. He’s the highest drafted linebacker of any of these guys, which Pete Warner has just been a fascinating player. I think here on Buckeye Talk for those who have been with us for the long haul, we were never really sure what to

make of Pete Warner obviously in 2019 he played Sam linebacker switched over the will linebacker for his final season in 2020 and then in 2021 he goes 60th to the Saints Baron Browning another fascinating guy he’s actually the last five -star linebacker Ohio State landed out of Texas in the 2017 recruiting class and the reason I’m bringing that up right now is because later when we get to the future of this conversation when we talk about Riley Petitjian the five -star linebacker out of Texas he’s on the other side of that as they kind of they finally found another five -star linebacker Baron Browning it

ever felt like he was maximized in terms of how he was used on the field here. He spent time being a part -time Mike linebacker, kind of sharing that spot with tough Borland at times and being more of a third round, excuse me, third down guy. And then he plays the Sam linebacker role his final year in 2020 goes one five to the Denver Broncos. And then Tommy Eichenberg three years later has probably been the most established is not the word had the most

most decorated linebacker of the Ryan Day era. He’s the second team all American after the 2022 season where it feels like Jim Knowles unlocked something with Tommy Eichenberg and uses him to his full advantage. In fact, I think he was the first player to go over 100 tackles in a season in 2022 since maybe early in the urban Meyer area at 120 tackles that year. Obviously couldn’t follow that up to T in 2023 as he dealt with injuries late in the year, but he ends up going 148th.

in this past NFL draft in 2024, which also brings us to.

Stephen Means (07:20.574)

to kind of wrap things up here. I don’t want to use the word championship caliber here because I don’t know if that’s fair to use that word the same way we were using it with quarterback running back wide receiver tight end, you know, offensive lineman defensive lineman. Cause it’s not the same, right? In fact, linebacker is kind of like the tight end of the defense in terms of how we have to talk about it in a way, you know, it can’t just be like black and white and how we talk about certain things. And so

Andrew (07:41.57)

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna

Stephen Means (07:49.502)

I think my question instead of championship caliber, I almost just want to talk about do you think Ohio State’s had high level linebacker play? For what it should supposed to be in a world where Malik Harrison, Pete Warner, and Baron Browning played for an Ohio State defense, that was a 4 -3, single high safety where Jordan Fuller was the only safety out there in 2019, and then it was like Josh Proctor and...

his name is escaping me right now, Marcus Hooker as the other guy who kind of both spent time in that single high safety role and then Tommy Eichenberg comes in here and his breakout year is Jim Noles’ first year where they go into a 4 -2 -5 where you only play on two linebackers. So for what their schemes were, right, do you think Ohio State has had high level linebacker play for what Ohio State’s needed from its linebackers in terms of production but then also just how they’re used?

Andrew (08:44.942)

Yes, but I do want to make a quick sidebar because you were talking about like, cause this whole thing is basically, you know, championship caliber. Do you have championship caliber linebackers? And I was thinking about this as we were doing this, like if you could pick any position on the field, quarterback, running back receiver, tight end, offensive line, defensive line, linebacker, corner safety. Is linebacker the one that you’re putting last in terms of the most important to have championship quality play at? Cause I think it’s either that tight end or running back.

Stephen Means (08:59.038)

you

Stephen Means (09:13.482)

I think I think I think Some of this depends on what team we’re talking about right like if you’re Georgia you probably do want high -end tight ends I mean Brock powers, I think for what Ohio State is offensively and defensively

Andrew (09:13.678)

And I think running back is definitely maybe more of like an NFL argument.

Stephen Means (09:34.686)

I think if you had to say which positions can you live with them not having a superstar level player at? It would probably be...

Linebacker and tight end as the spots where it doesn’t have to be a superstar, right? That doesn’t have to be like it’s if they have it great I’m not gonna you know say Brock powers was at Ohio said I don’t think anybody like shame on you know and if CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles as we get into talking about them later on in the spot if they’re superstars or superstars But I don’t think they have to have them for what the defense is to your point, which is why

I changed the adjective from championship caliber to high level linebacker play because I think that answer for me is yes. I think Malik Harrison was a high level linebacker in 2019. I think Pete Warner, Baron Brown, even Tough Borland for what he was as a talent. I understand people think about the Alabama game where he gets stuck on Devontae Smith, which is more, that’s more about Kerry Combs not having guys in the position the right way as a defensive coordinator, but also Steve Sarkeesian as Alabama’s offensive coordinator.

Exploiting that then it was about tough boiling like shame when you as a Mike linebacker not being able to cover the best wide receiver in the country You can’t ask anybody like Mac or to do that. That’s not named Fred Warner. I Think they were where they maximize no, but I think for what they were I think they were high -level players and then I think once you got over that weird 2021 where they were kind of rotating in bulk because they didn’t know who their guys were I think You know to Roger Mitchell started off that season. It took him a while to get the Tommy Eichenberg, but once you figured out hey Tommy

Tommy Eichenberg’s pretty good, Steel Chambers is pretty good, Cody Simon’s pretty good. I think you saw high level play from the linebackers.

Andrew (11:17.23)

Yeah, I mean, I think they’ve definitely gotten high level play from linebackers, right? Malik Harrison, he was a first team All -Big Ten in 2019. Pete Warner, first team All -Big Ten in 2020. Baron Browning, third team All -Big Ten in 2020. Tommy Eichenberg, I mean, duh, he was first team All -Big Ten two years in a row in 2022 and 2023. I mean, that’s a player who was one of the better linebackers in the country.

Stephen Means (11:34.174)

you

Andrew (11:47.246)

The thing that I think though, like I know this isn’t what you asked, but I think you’ve gotten very, very good linebacker play and it’s probably right outside of championship caliber linebacker play. And the reason that I would say that is not any disrespect to like a Tommy Eichenberg or any of those guys. Because like I just said, those are really, really good football players that have come through here. you know, you kind of saw that dip in like 2022 and 2023 where you didn’t have a linebacker.

Stephen Means (11:50.401)

you

Andrew (12:15.662)

picked in the NFL draft. You know, in 2020 you have Malik Harrison go. He’s a third round pick and Pete 2021 you have Pete Warner. He’s a second round pick. You have Baron Browning. He’s a third round pick. Like you had talent on the roster that, you know, was some of the better talent in college football. The thing that I just keep coming back to though is like championship caliber. You know, I know everything is kind of dependent on something else. Like one of our textures was talking about, you know, this with like the quarterback position.

Stephen Means (12:16.861)

Yep.

Andrew (12:44.11)

It’s independent. And I think that that’s how you have to look at it. Right. Like if you were to put Quinn Sean Judkins and Trevion Henderson on Marshall. Marshall is not going to win a national championship, but they have national championship quality running backs. Right. You know, I understand that the offensive line is not going to be as talented. You know, and if I mean, God forbid, when Marshall plays Ohio State, I mean, those poor offensive linemen are in trouble. But like.

Stephen Means (13:07.01)

You

Andrew (13:13.102)

It doesn’t mean that Trevon Henderson and Quinchel Judkins are any worse because they have a bad offensive line. So I think you kind of have to look at this independently. And the thing that I see with championship caliber is you need a special trait like to, to harken back to Ryan Day’s quarterback. You need a Michael Parsons, right? You need a guy like that. You need an Isaiah Simmons. I know he played kind of like a safety linebacker type role, but you need someone in that type of mold where, you know, Hey, look,

Stephen Means (13:37.218)

You

Andrew (13:43.438)

Here, well, I mean, not to jump ahead, but like CJ Hicks, Sonny Styles, you need that level of ability at the linebacker position to where you can have something special. To me, that’s championship quality. Now, I’m not trying to disrespect any of these guys. Championship quality is a top three, top five, you know, linebacker core in the country. I just I think Ohio State’s like right at the doorstep of that. You’ve just had really good not elite. And I don’t think that that’s a diss. And I don’t think people should take it as that.

Stephen Means (14:06.498)

You

Andrew (14:11.406)

You know, Pete Warner was a good linebacker. Malik Harrison was a good linebacker. Baron Browning was a good linebacker. Like Tommy Ikenberg was a really good linebacker. Like Seale Chambers, I think was a really solid linebacker. And it, you just haven’t had that championship push and you can be really good in a lot of different positions. And I just think Ohio State, that’s what they kind of have been at linebacker. And you know, to me, championship quality is a, is a different level. Championship quality, championship quality receiver play or

Stephen Means (14:33.206)

You know

to me championship quality is a different level. Championship quality receiver play or tight end play or quarterback play like that is you know like that is

Andrew (14:41.294)

tight end player, quarterback play, like that is, you know, like that there’s a difference, right? And like, I guess like a championship quality quarterback play. I know this is an extreme example is like CJ Stroud or Justin Fields. Good to the average call like quarterback plays, Kyle McCord or, you know, I’m trying to think of another just, yeah, just Kyle McCord. Like, you know, you can, yeah, just Kyle McCord.

Stephen Means (15:07.945)

Just him all by himself.

Andrew (15:09.966)

Like, and the reason I use that example is because you can still win with it. It doesn’t mean it’s necessarily like killing you. Just means that, you know, it’s not a top three, top five level in the sport. And sometimes that’s okay.

Stephen Means (15:17.246)

there’s a difference right

Stephen Means (15:35.632)

as the head coach with tough Borland and Baron Browning and Pete Warner and Malik Harrison and Justin Hilliard. I’ll throw him in there as well. And then the low the high moments are Tommy Eichenberg being in luck in a way that it has been a while since we had really seen a linebacker be a weapon for Ohio State and Jim Knowles turned Tommy Eichenberg into a weapon, man. It’s consistent. Second team All -American. The low moments are twenty twenty one early in that year. I remember the Minnesota game. I remember the Oregon game where it just seemed

like they didn’t know they had no clue who their best players were and part of that was we found out why the 2018 class couldn’t push guys onto the field that’s Taraja Mitchell that’s Kayvon Pope I mean Kayvon Pope that that entire thing is a little moment and self what happened in that Akron game and I think that that was a speak a little bit to what the culture was in that room at that point and how that played out in real time but that class didn’t necessarily work out mixed with not knowing who your best players were I think that’s probably part of the reason why

Ryan and they had to look elsewhere for it where he was gonna go with his linebackers coach Moving on to what the past five years tell us about realistic expectations for the room in general

I don’t think it tells us anything at all. We do not learn anything. No. And I think that I mean that in the most optimistic way possible. Right. The recruiting, like serious, the recruiting in the last six months has been better at linebacker than it’s been the previous five years.

Andrew (16:49.006)

No, it does not. We do not learn anything.

Andrew (16:56.398)

Yeah, I’m with you. I’m 100 % with you. You’re saying everything that I’m thinking right now.

Stephen Means (17:06.782)

I think that goes without saying whatsoever. Now, the developmental side, I think that’s the thing. That’s what it tells me more than anything is if it was gonna tell me anything, it’s just, okay, Ohio State landed the best linebacker in the country in 2017. It felt like they spent four years not knowing what to do with them.

And then he ends up being the number 105 pick in NFL draft. Now vice versa from that, Pete Warner was like a lowly rated four star recruit and he ends up being a second round draft pick. So you got to take the good with the bad, right? You develop Pete Warner so good that he outplayed his recruiting ranking. The same with Malik Harrison, the same with Tommy Eichenberg, but you also had a five star recruit from Texas and you didn’t turn him in anything. You turned him into a guy who was outside the top 100 in the NFL draft. That’s, that’s facts. So now you look at a room where

it feels like there’s something cooking in the linebacker room with James Laurinaitis and The positive is it’s not just gonna be all young guys. There is a veteran coming back But there’s some young talent some guys have some high expectations It doesn’t mean that these guys are gonna turn into the best players in the country, but it means that they could right for recruiting ranking suggests that they might and

Do they get maximized because

It didn’t always feel like the linebackers got maximized at Ohio State, at least not the ones that came in here with all the recruiting talent in the world that you would expect them to be better players than they were, and they necessarily weren’t that. So, but the problem is, I don’t know if I question if that will happen or not. Am I keeping an eye on it? Sure, because the first five years tell us that it’s something to keep an eye on. But I’m glad you’re with me, Andrew. I don’t know if that even applies.

Stephen Means (18:58.622)

to the now or the future the same way it did with literally every other position we’ve done so far because even with running back the conversation we had there yes it’s a new guy in charge of the room but at least in 2024 the individual is he’s coaching aren’t new right and the guys coming right after them

The old guy had a hand in why they’re here and that’s James peoples and Sam Williams Dixon They committed to Ohio State and showed up at Ohio State and Tony off for was still the coach So there’s still part of the past that’s coming into the future There’s not really a lot of the past coming into the future at linebacker at this point It’s a reset in terms of who’s at the top of the room in the hierarchy It’s a reset in terms of who’s in charge of the room It’s a reset in terms of who’s recruiting the room And so we are when we get into this present and we get into the future

I think we’re fine. I think both of us, and you can say if you disagree with that, I think we’re fine with what it was the first five years. But there’s a chance that it could be special. And now it’s a conversation of like, if it’s special, what does that mean for this defense versus if it’s not, is it just going to be more of the same? Yeah, this to me has kind of the...

Andrew (20:09.678)

Yeah, this to me has kind of the...

I’m trying to think of an analogy here. This kind of me, this to me kind of has like that mindset of like, you know, an NFL team or NHL team or an NBA team or whatever, Major League Baseball team or whatever, that’s been good. And then you go for it. And like, and, and then you have that one trade where you look at and go, like, like, this is the Texans trading for Stefan Diggs.

Stephen Means (20:24.222)

team or NHL team or NBA team or whatever, maybe the baseball team or whatever, that’s been good and then you go for it. And then you have that one trade where you look at and go,

like it like this is the Texans trading for Stefan digs, right? Like I know, you know timelines are a little bit shorter, but like you’ve been good, but this is your move to be great. And I think that that’s where we’re at with Ohio State’s linebackers, right? Like this is this is where we are at in this kind of in this kind of evolution of the Ohio State linebacker position. We look at it and go, you know what? James Laurinitis can take this room from anywhere like some Ohio State fans. I’m sure looking at this going, I wish we had more.

Andrew (20:44.238)

Right? Like I know, you know, timelines are a little bit shorter, but like you’ve been good, but this is your move to be great. And I think that that’s where we’re at with Ohio State’s linebackers, right? Like this is, this is where we are at in this kind of, in, in this kind of evolution of the Ohio State linebacker position where you look at it and go, you know what? James Laurinitis can take this room from anywhere. Like some Ohio State fans, I’m sure are looking at this going, I wish we had more of their.

Stephen Means (21:09.76)

their from their linebackers and I think that that’s a fair point I think there’s a lot of people that are probably looking at this going Andrew’s a moron Stevens a moron why are they demanding more out of the linebackers Tommy Eichenberg was really good he was a two -team or two -time all -big -ten first team all -big -ten player like you know that’s totally fair and I think that there’s a lot of valid points to be made there but the ceiling is now undoubtedly higher than it has been and I think that that is kind of why I look at the last couple of

Andrew (21:10.03)

from their linebackers. And I think that that’s a fair point. I think there’s a lot of people that are probably looking at this going, Andrew’s a moron, Steven’s a moron. Why are they demanding more out of the linebackers? Tommy Eichenberg was really good. He was a two team or two time All Big Ten, first team All Big Ten player. Like, you know, that’s totally fair. And I think that there’s a lot of valid points to be made there. But the ceiling is now undoubtedly higher than it has been. And I think that that is kind of why

I look at the last couple of years of Ohio State linebackers and say, you know what? That was really admirable, really good job. You know, they had good players, they had a good unit, they’ve had, you know, a lot of talent rolled through here. It can be different moving.

Stephen Means (21:39.68)

years of Ohio State’s linebackers and say, you know what, that was really admirable, really good job. You know, they had good players, they had a good unit, they’ve had a lot of talent roll through here. It can be difficult. And different is good. And I think I hope my tone puts that across because I think there’s something special being built in Ohio State’s linebacker room that I’m not sure anybody felt that was happening a couple of years ago. I thought you maybe thought it was going to be fine.

But maybe your floor and your your but like the floor and ceiling were fine, right? It wasn’t Extreme in any regard with all it was just gonna be kind of what it was That’s Ohio State’s linebacker play up to this point. They’ve had some really good guys for guys have been drafted There’s been some high moments. There’s been some low moments, but maybe just a more tame conversation around that group Which I think we just spent 20 minutes setting up what we’re going to talk about next after this break and that’s James Laurinaitis is Ohio State’s

Andrew (22:11.374)

Yeah, it wasn’t bad.

Stephen Means (22:39.52)

linebackers coach. What does that mean in 2024? As he takes over a room that’s got some bright young talent that needs to be developed and also later down the line what it means for the future as he’s already started building a 2025 recruiting class that is to be admired in terms of linebacker talent here on Buckeye Talk.

Stephen Means (23:02.878)

So we’re back here on Buckeye Talk. We’re talking Ohio State’s linebackers. We wrapped up the present in, not quick, because we’re not doing anything quick. It’s just not how we operate here. But just in a way that came to a conclusion that it was fine. It was fine, but it wasn’t good. It wasn’t great. It was just fine. But 2024 is interesting because...

Andrew, if I told you Ohio State’s linebacker room has a returning veteran who has at least been a part -time starter for what is now going to be his third year, he’s in his fifth year in the program and he has been at least a part -time starter and I think three or four of those years, right? Heading back to 2021 when he won a job as a sophomore. So really more than that, four years, yeah, he’s in year five.

And then the guys right after him are two former five star top 10 recruits in the country coming into a third year, which for five star recruits can sometimes mean that’s the money year before they’re off and running. Then behind those guys are, as another borderline top 100 recruit coming into his third year as well. And then behind that guy,

is a Glenville product who is a very intriguing guy of whether you’re talking about the Jack or just traditional linebacker play who has at least turned some heads to an extent with the way he played his freshman year behind the scenes and then behind that guy are two freshmen with some promise going forward. If I described that room to you without the context of everything behind that, what

What’s your reaction to this that being the talent that James Lauren is going to have before we get into the context of it?

Andrew (24:39.47)

This kind of feels like the prologue to what is to come. This kind of feels like the beginning of the James Laurinitis era at linebacker. And what I mean by that is you kind of have the last, you know, the last kind of wave, if you will, I think. But, you know, you look at...

Cody Simon and you have Cody Simon coming back and Cody Simon is going to be really solid for you. And I think with Cody Simon, like the ceiling there with Simon is not first round pick, right?

Like, I don’t think anybody, like when we talk about NFL draft picks for Ohio state in 2025, like what could be a massive year? I don’t think anybody’s sitting there going, you know, you know, Cody, Cody Simon, he, he might be, he might be a top 40 pick. You know, he could have an elite year and he could be amazing. And I think he can just be really good. And then just kind of be that Tommy Eichenberg of 2023 where, he’s a fifth round pick.

fifth round pick and you know, the level of talent there is solid and it’s just, there’s a solid floor where you look at it and go at bare minimum, it’s gonna be average and at best, it’s gonna be really good.

where you get into the kind of the future of this is what’s to come because CJ Hicks has a different type of ceiling than Cody Simon does or that like Tommy Eichenberg did or that, you know, some of these other guys that have come through, Pete Warner and all these other guys did. And I don’t want that to sound like I’m saying CJ Hicks is definitely going to be better than, than Tommy Eichenberg. Tommy Eichenberg was a really, really, really, really, really good college linebacker for many years, but

Andrew (26:47.758)

the athleticism, the size, the speed, that’s different with CJ Hicks. It’s different with Sonny Styles, the size, the speed, the height, the weight. They’re different types of players and I think the ceiling has been raised with Ohio State’s linebacker room and this is when you’re gonna start to see it. Now, we don’t really know what Ohio State’s linebacker room is gonna look like because we haven’t really seen it yet, right?

Like we haven’t seen Sonny Styles play linebacker in a full -time role yet. We haven’t really seen CJ Hicks see full -time, like actual full -time snaps, actually, you know, getting solid, consistent playing time. We haven’t seen any of this. It’s impossible to kind of guess. Well, I guess it’s not impossible to guess. It’s impossible to know what this linebacker core is going to look like. But I think that this is the beginning of what James Laurinaitis is.

ceiling at linebacker could be is Ohio State’s linebacker coach because again, we’re going to get into the 2025 class moving forward, but you know, there’s going to be a lot of talent that’s added to this linebacker room and there’s going to be a lot of height, weight, speed guys that Ohio State has just not really had in the last couple of years. And it’s kind of a change. And you look at some of the players that Ohio State has added and that Ohio State is recruiting.

And it’s hard not to be impressed and I think it’s hard not to be tantalized by the upside and the potential of this upcoming year.

Stephen Means (00:06.418)

Cody Simon was really productive last year. 57 tackles, three tackles for loss and two pass breakups. Obviously that was without being a starter, man. That he kind of got back to what he was in 2021 where he had 54 tackles, two and a half tackles for loss, a second interception in the pass breakup. But even then last year he, he didn’t play as many snaps as Tommy Eichenberg and still chambers that when they were healthy, obviously Tommy Eichenberg missing some games allows Cody Simon to get an opportunity. But the entire year,

Andrew (00:12.878)

That was without playing like a full -time role. Like, that, yeah.

Stephen Means (00:35.698)

Jim Knowles consistently kept saying I need to get Cody Simon on the field more. I need to get Cody Simon on the field more. He’s the starting Mike linebacker and he is the the biggest known commodity in this linebacker room and the question with him is like

Not even about him. It’s more about hey, does CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles start doing things where maybe they’re playing more than Cody Simon is by the time you get to the college football playoff. I’m not going to bank on it, but also that would be saying something about CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles and their development if they do get to that point.

Is this group championship caliber right now? No, you can’t say. Yeah, there’s just not your best player is the only guy in your room who’s played a thousand. He’s played more career snaps. His career snaps is more than everybody else has played in their career combined. So it’s just no. Can they be? Yeah, absolutely. The thing with you keep hearing this with CJ Hicks, it’s just consistency. Everything else is there.

Andrew (01:13.486)

No, because we just don’t know.

Andrew (01:30.254)

Absolutely, absolutely, yes.

Stephen Means (01:38.034)

If he’s consistent, if it’s not, man, CJ Hicks just made a play and then it’s two or three plays of like, it’s not clicking, what’s going on CJ? And then it’s man, CJ Hicks just made a play. And then it’s, what are you doing CJ? If he finds steady play, and maybe that happens, right? He spent a lot of time this spring just getting a chance to play football and just getting reps. So maybe it’s clipped for him.

over the last nine months and he just explodes in year three as a five star recruit is everything we thought he could be. That’s on the table. Sonny Styles has experience. He’s played in football games. Now he’s changing positions, of course. So there is going to be a learning curve, but who knows? Maybe that learning curve is quick, right? Just cause he’s played football before. And so if that’s your top three, if both of those guys hit mixed with the experience and just the quality play.

that Cody Simon has, I think that’s potentially a championship caliber linebacker trio.

Andrew (02:36.846)

So, yeah, like Ohio State has had, you know, they had Tommy Eichenberg, who was, you know, a two time first team all big 10 player. I mean, this is one of the better linebackers in the country in terms of kind of what he is and what he brought to you on the field. And I think neither of us and I think a lot of Ohio State fans are going to look at this and say the ceiling is undoubtedly higher in 2024 than it was in 2023. And that’s just because I don’t think it’s crazy to say that Cody Simon, you know, even if you get 90 percent of what that

Tommy Eichenberger 80 % or 75 % of what that Tommy Eichenberger rule was. I think the upside of having a CJ Hicks, like we were impressed with him, Steven, in spring practice of CJ just kind of blasting through the line of scrimmage and really kind of laying the wood on some people. I think that that’s a very impressive football player with CJ. And then there’s obviously Sonny Styles and kind of the different ways that you can use him. The upside there...

Stephen Means (03:08.594)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (03:16.146)

Yeah.

Andrew (03:33.262)

is higher. Now I think that the consequence of that is the floor is definitely lower because you had steel chambers and you had Tommy Eichenberg and you know exactly what you were going to get from those two guys. And you knew exactly kind of what you were going to get even when Cody Simon was in the game when you had three linebackers. They did that a lot against Notre Dame. They did that a lot against I think Michigan and Penn State. When you had two or three linebackers you knew exactly what you were getting. So I think the floor is lower in 2024 just because

you lose two guys that are now on NFL rosters. One of them was a draft pick, but I think the ceiling is also much higher because of just the, the, the jump that CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles can take, I think is kind of outweighed or outweighs maybe the, the ceiling that like steel chambers and Tommy Eichenberg had together.

Stephen Means (04:26.642)

Cody Simon can be just as good as he was last year. If he doesn’t get any better, if he’s just as, if he’s just what he was last year, if CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles hit their ceiling, I think that’s a better linebacker group than last year. If, it’s a big if, I understand that, big if. But if they do, that’s better than 2024. Now, does it have to be? Probably not.

It’s, I think if CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles reached their potential, just because of what linebacker is in this system, I think it’s a bonus and not a need in terms of, well, dire need.

because need just makes it seem like, they can just be average. No, they can’t be average, but a dire need for one of them to be a superstar, whether it’s Cody Simon, CJ Hicks, Lenny Styles, maybe Gay Powers or Arville Reese, because I know that Jim Zornitis has talked about wanting to rotate and wanting to play more guys. Let’s see if that actually happens. I think that’s something that all coaches say, and it sounds good an idea until you get out there and actually start playing football games. And then you look up and it’s like, Cody Simon has played 374 snaps while Steel Chambers has played 650.

and Tommy Ikenbergs played 6 -0 -7. So it sounds good in theory, but 16 game season potentially, 17 game season potentially, so maybe they’re more inclined to do that. Maybe the schedule allows them to do that a little bit more. But I mean, the defensive line is loaded and this cornerback room is loaded. The linebacker group best is the third best group on this defense.

And even then you’re fighting a safety group that has Caleb Downs a part of it. So, you know.

Andrew (06:00.974)

no, no, I think this 2024 linebacker corps is most definitely fourth in terms of defensive line corps. Yeah.

Stephen Means (06:06.61)

It’s the worst part of the defense. Do you know that’s, that’s good. And it’s a good thing that your worst part of your defense is a group that has a group. Your worst part of your defense has an upside that’s championship call over. That’s how good this defense is. Best case scenario and worst case scenarios, Andrew. And we can see where we think it’s going to be on the scale. Best case scenario, CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles are awesome.

Andrew (06:14.734)

is probably gonna be pretty good.

Stephen Means (06:33.458)

And you mix that with Cody Simon. And now we’re having a conversation of like, Hey, is this like the best linebacker trio in the big 10? Like that’s best case scenario. I also think that might be a little bit of worst case scenario. Cause like maybe CJ is so good that he leaves after this year. Though that’s more, that’s the more unrealistic part of it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a little too far out there. I think the realistic worst best case scenario is just those two are awesome. And you mix that with Cody Simon and James Lauren Nines has three legit options at linebacker on any given snap.

Andrew (06:50.734)

That’s some game theory stuff, Steven.

Stephen Means (07:03.57)

Especially when they go with that big nickel look where I think CJ Sonny Styles is just a big nickel worst case scenario It’s a repeat of 2021 where you weren’t here yet But we spent a lot of time in the years leading up to 2021 Wondering why that 2018 recruiting class with guys like Taraja Mitchell and K -Bomb Pope why they couldn’t get on the field Well, how is it that tough Borland and Pete Warner and Billy Harrison and Baron Browning are blocking these guys? What’s going on here? How come they can’t get on the field?

And when you’re asking those types of questions, you’re always gonna find out the answer and it’s always gonna be one of these two answers. You’re either gonna find out why and it’s because, they weren’t good enough or the guys in front of them were just that good. That it had nothing to do with them, it’s just the guys in front of them were just that good. And in 2021, we found out it was the former. like these guys just aren’t it. They’re not the answer to this one.

Worst case scenario is that happens again. Where yes, Cody Simon and Tommy Eichenberg in Steel Chambers were good, but also CJ Hicks is not clicking. Gabe Powers is not clicking. Sonny Styles, it’s there, but he needs another year to just get accustomed to being a linebacker. That’s worst case scenario. I think the more like, if I had between those two extremes of realistic conversation, I would lean more with the best case scenario playing out. But I think what’s actually going to end up happening here is

CJ Hicks flashes. And the good thing is the first three games are Akron, Marshall, Western Michigan, right? He’s not playing the type of teams that can make him pay for his mistakes. Sonny Styles isn’t playing teams that are gonna make him pay for his mistakes. I think Cody Simon looks very good. I think CJ and Sonny and Gay Powers, they flash. Arvel Reese, they flash. But they also have some moments that let you know, hey, this is their first time playing meaningful steps. And that’s fine.

But then we get to week six, we get to the Oregon game, it starts to look a little bit better, and then by the time we get to the end of the season, it’s rolling. These guys have figured it out because they’ve played a season longest. I think that’s the more likely situation where maybe they’re not awesome immediately.

Stephen Means (09:15.058)

But they show enough and continue to progress over the 12 game season that maybe once you get on a playoff stage, your linebacker group is awesome in a way that no CJ Hicks is not gonna be a three and done football player. No Sonny Stiles is gonna be a three and done football player, but they’re really good. And you pair that with Cody Simon and then in 2025, it gets real interesting when a lot of those guys have experience plus that talent.

Andrew (09:37.102)

Yeah, I mean, the best case scenario is very simple. It’s like we’re looking at their linebacker core after a couple of weeks, maybe even like headed into the Oregon game. Like, man, for what Oregon wants to do, should Ohio State just put CJ Hicks and Sonny Stiles out there? Like, should those be the two linebackers? Like with the athleticism that you need to play Oregon and a team like Oregon, maybe down the line, you know, is, is, cause they’re not going to play a team like Oregon until at least the playoff, right?

They’re not gonna play a team that wants to kind of spread you out and do that. Penn State, they’re gonna try to run the ball a little bit. And Michigan, I mean, duh. They’re gonna try to beat you over the head with a hammer for 60 minutes. That’s just what Michigan does. And that’s just kind of, Penn State’s a little bit more open than that. But I guess maybe not until the playoff, because you might play Oregon again in the Big Ten Championship game. But you get what I’m saying, until the postseason. So that’s the best case scenario, that CJ Hicks, the light bulb goes on.

and it you get it and like I think it’s important to note with these rankings like I said this with Justin Scott who if you remember once upon a time was committed to Ohio State like there was a lot of people that talked about Justin Scott as like this guy you know five -star defensive lineman like these are exactly the type of player that you want and that’s 100 true but I think that that I said this when he was committed to Ohio State so I don’t want this to sound like everybody’s looking at it going you’re only saying this because he’s not going to be a Buckeye now no like I was saying this before this

It was going to take a little bit for Justin Scott. And I think it was one of those things where it, look, hey, look, this guy, he didn’t play football, you know, up until like his freshman year of high school and he needed to learn the position. He was still a basketball player. He had to put some weight on and like, there were just, there were things that needed to happen. Well, sometimes it happens for five -star recruits. Like the five -star recruit doesn’t mean like a five -star recruit is not a ranking of who’s the most ready to play now. Sometimes it takes you two or three years.

And that might be what happens for CJ Hicks. And if he lives up to that billing, and if Sonny Styles can kind of fill out that billing and you finally find him a home where you’re moving him around and you don’t really know, is he a safety, is he an in the box safety, is he a backer, is he a guy that you can only play in certain situations, is he somebody that you want to move to the jack? How do you want to use Sonny Styles? There’s...

Andrew (11:59.598)

The best case scenario I think is maybe perhaps just as likely as the worst case scenario, which is, you know, the best case scenario is that these guys hit their ceiling and then all of a sudden you’re like, my God, there’s look at the sideline to sideline speed they have in the middle of their defense. And now all of a sudden you got maybe the best secondary in college football along with maybe the best defensive line in college football. That’s a nightmare for opposing offenses. The worst case scenario I think is very simple as well is that

it just takes a little bit. And by a little bit, I mean the season. Like it, it, it, it just, you know what? It’s just, it’s not going to click for CJ Hicks with this coaching staff or with this program or whatever. And it just, you know, you hear this consistency a lot and the consistency just doesn’t click. And it just doesn’t happen where, you know, one play he’s in the backfield and he makes a three yard loss on a great play where he, you know, sheds a guard and you know, he’s in the back and you’re like, my God, what a play. And everybody’s getting all excited about it. And everybody’s looking at him going, this is so

you know, unbelievable look at CJ Hicks. boy, he just got burned on a tight end route and now they gain 18 yards. Like that would be the worry with CJ Hicks is that the consistency is not there. And then with Sonny Styles, I don’t even think it’s a judgment on like his talent or anything. I think it’s just, is that the right position for him? Or even if it is, this is his first position. This is the first year playing it at the college level. I understand he’s been in this program for a couple of years now, but maybe he just needs a year of playing the position to kind of fully acclimate.

And then if that’s the case, then you’ve got Cody Simon and some question marks at linebacker. And you wonder like when you do play a team like Oregon or a team that is RPO heavy, can they just kill you over the middle? You know, is that, is that a worry that you would have that in the flats and in the middle of the defense, they’re just going to eat your lunch because you don’t, you know, you don’t, you’re not worried about the linebackers in Ohio state that.

That would be the worst case scenario. I think both of those scenarios are maybe equally likely to happen. I think you’re right. The more realistic scenario is that it maybe takes a little bit for one or two of those guys. But I think with the talent that you’ve got, you know, with the talent that you have in the linebacking core, one of those two guys is going to figure it out.

Andrew (14:19.182)

Like, let’s pretend that Sonny Styles needs another year to kind of learn the linebacker position, to learn the nuances, to really kind of grasp it. It’s his first year playing linebacker. Let’s give him some rope. You know, let’s give him some leeway. Well, then CJ Hicks might just be a baller and CJ Hicks just might be a badass. And you’re like, here he is. Here’s the five star linebacker. And then all of a sudden you’re like, OK, well, what’s the weak point of Ohio State’s defense? And you’re like, all right, well, if the whole team gets neuro virus and they’re

out and eight starters are out then maybe we have a chance yeah isn’t that the one i mean i was just thinking of like food poisoning whatever that i mean food poisoning you get sick you’re out for 48 to 72 hours like on a friday or saturday that would basically be the only thing that i would be scared of if i was ohio state like when you like outside of like oregon and like maybe michigan like how many offenses on that you know like like let me hear here’s a great way to phrase this question

Stephen Means (14:52.514)

Neurovirus! That’s what you went with?

Stephen Means (14:57.682)

No.

Andrew (15:15.886)

If everyone’s healthy and everyone’s in the lineup and no one has food poisoning or no one’s sick and no one’s in a disaster area for 48 to 72 hours, let’s pretend the linebackers hit and let’s pretend the linebackers do turn into championship quality. CJ Hicks, Sonny Stiles, Cody Simon, they’re just awesome. CJ Hicks turns into that five star player and Sonny Stiles is now running all over the field making all these plays and he’s the tight end whisperer and he just locks down every tight end that you’re gonna play because of his size and speed.

Like, is Ohio, like what is Ohio State’s ceiling at that point for their defense? Like, is that the best, like are we, like this is a very genuine question. Are we talking about like the best defense of, we’re talking about probably the best defense in the country at that point, but like, what’s the limit to that? Like if you get a linebacking core that is that good, that’s my point. Like the linebacking core would be the one area that I would be concerned about, cause you’re not concerned about, I mean, injuries are obviously not withstanding, but like,

At safety, you got Caleb Downs late at the ransom. You’re good. At corner, you got Denzel Burke, Davis Henning -Binnos, and Jordan Hancock. You’re good. And even if one of those guys goes down, you got Calvin Simpson Hunt and Jermaine Matthews behind him. You’re good. At defensive line, you got four NFL players that are playing on your defensive line right now, and three of them, maybe four of them, could be in the NFL right now if they wanted. And they’re back at Ohio State. Linebackers are the only place where we’re like, I don’t know what’s gonna happen. I don’t know what this room is gonna be.

Stephen Means (16:34.87)

Yeah.

Andrew (16:41.294)

If you get championship quality play of your linebacker, we are looking at every single position and every single unit on this defense as championship quality. I don’t know what that ceiling looks like. The best defense since blank is something that we’re gonna have to answer.

Stephen Means (16:53.138)

Yeah, I don’t know. We gotta see that play out before I go down that road. I think it’s... The thing I wanted to touch on is when you brought up the Justin and Scott story and like, hey, just the backstory and sometimes the context of why a kid might take a little bit even if he has all the talent in the world. That’s the CJ Hicks story a little bit. He didn’t go to a...

football powerhouse, he went to Archbishop Alter down there in Dayton, Ohio, and they just kind of asked him to do a little bit of everything. And so he never really even focused solely on linebacker until he got to Ohio State. And so the consistency was also just learning how to play linebacker.

learning how to play college football at this level. And now that he’s done that, what does that turn into in this season? And maybe it does mean he’s going to be all those things you were talking about, but more than likely, I think what we’re gonna see here is we’re gonna see the flashes and we’re gonna see steadily improvement from him and Sonier from K Powers and Arvel Reese. And I think they have a schedule that’s going to allow them to do that in a way that’s inconsequential while they get better.

And by the time we get to the Oregon game, then we start to see it all really click and come together. And in the meantime, having Cody Simon as that consistent rock at lineback, at Mike linebacker for you can kind of ease some of that off, but also to the point you’re talking about, because they’re so loaded at these other spots with both talent and experience.

The mistakes that linebacker won’t shine as much as maybe they did in 2021 when there was mistakes and you lost Josh Proctor as your single high safety. So your plan.

Stephen Means (18:22.514)

Bryce and Shaw, you’ve got a true freshman Denzel Burke starting that cornerback and you’re not really sure every single week what’s going on with Seven Bangs and Cameron Brown. Like everything else around the linebacker group wasn’t as solid. And so when they made mistakes, it was a little bit more brighter. I think when this group makes mistakes early on in the season, the schedule being a little bit lighter before you get into, you know, week four, week five, week six, mixed with the experience and talent that’s around this defense is going to allow CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles and Gabe

and Arvel Reese to make those mistakes and be able to live through them while James Laurinaitis is still developing in real time with some of these guys, right? This is still development in real time. Biggest challengers for the case for the best room in 2024. I think Iowa’s got some of the good linebackers per usual. Michigan’s got good linebackers. Oregon’s got good linebackers. I don’t...

It’s some quality linebackers in the Big Ten. And so this is one of the few groups where it’s like, I don’t want to just automatically assume this is going to be a group that contends to be the best group in the Big Ten, let alone the country. They might not be. They might only be the third best linebacker group in the Big Ten. But that’s just because there might be four or five groups in the Big Ten, and when you look across the conference, that all deserve to be amongst the 15 best linebacker groups in just college football right now.

What’s a question you have about the room or something that isn’t as obvious or in your face about the linebacker group?

Andrew (19:47.95)

Yeah, I think we’ve talked a lot about Cody Simon kind of being that steady hand, the veteran, the guy who’s he’s been, you know, on the team for X amount of years and, you know, look at all the positives that he can give you. And those things are true. And I do believe in that on your defense. He’s I mean, this guy, he’s been here since 2020. He’s seen some stuff. He’s been around.

However, we don’t need to pretend like CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles are new. So my question is how quickly and is it even possible for one of those two guys to kind of take over that Cody Simon role on the linebacker core? If things go well, if things hit, like if CJ Hicks is that guy and if Sonny Styles is that guy, those are two five -star players

that are very difficult to keep off the field. And I understand you want to have a rotation and I understand you want to have, you know, variability in your defense. And there’s going to be games where all three of those guys are on the field and you’re running a traditional four, three, but you’re going to have four, this is a four down defense. You’re going to have four down linemen. You got your two safeties and Caleb downs and Lathan Ransom. There’s six. I mean, Denzel Burke, Davis and Ibn Osin, you need them on the field. There’s eight. So it’s basically like,

You get down to three spots for CJ Hicks, Sonny Styles, Cody Simon, and Jordan Hancock. And I understand that that’s going to vary by your opponent, but like you start to wonder is the ceiling of Ohio State’s defense higher with CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles out there? Like, can one of those two guys fill that role? And if they can, I think that that’s a benefit to Ohio State. It’s just...

I think we’ve talked so much about who’s gonna play next to Cody Simon. This is probably really unlikely. I just wanna see it. Like, I just wanna know. Like, I just wanna like have a couple plays or maybe a quarter or whatever it is during a game this year where I look at it and say, you know, hey, like they really believe in CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles. They’re both playing well. What does it look like together? I just, I think that that’s a really intriguing combo to me. I think that, you know, as you map this out.

Andrew (22:16.705)

I’m fascinated by that idea. I’m fascinated by the idea of putting those two guys on the field. You know, they’re long, especially Sonny Styles. They can run, they’re physical, you know, they can hit. Is that the better duo at linebacker for Ohio State than somebody with Cody Simon and X? I don’t know the answer to that question. I’m just intrigued by it.

Stephen Means (22:42.13)

I think that requires asking James or not is how many guys he feels he trusts to be a Mike linebacker for him. Because I don’t think like CJ Hicks has not been repping that Mike linebacker he’s been working at wrapping up. Yeah, really like it’s Sonny Styles a guy that he trusts to be able to be a Mike linebacker because that’s the only way that happens because right now I think the only guy that we are assuming has that level of trust to have that green dot which is now a thing in college football having the green dot on your helmet because it means you have the mic literally.

Andrew (22:48.014)

Agreed.

No, it’s a Sonny Styles question is what it is.

Stephen Means (23:10.002)

is Cody Simon. And so until I know the answer to that question or until that question gets asked of James Ornitis and he provides an answer, whatever the answer is, I don’t want to go down that road because I think it sounds good, right, to have the two five -star recruits out there who have high ceilings. But there’s so much that comes with being a Mike Linebacker that with Will, it’s just see ball, get ball. Mike Linebacker has to be in charge of things. And I don’t know if you trust

a guy who is, yes he’s in his third year but he hasn’t played a lot of snaps and another guy who’s still transitioning from safety to linebacker enough yet to be able to do that yet. So I’m not gonna do that. I think I am gonna, I am wondering about if there’s gonna be a rotation or not. We’ve had two years of Jim Knowles. Here are the linebacker snaps in those two years.

In 2022, Tommy Eichenberg played 760 snaps, Steel Chambers played 688 snaps. The only other player in the linebacker room who played more than 10 snaps in 2022 was Cody Simon and he played 236. Everybody else, excuse me, that’s not right, no. One other guy who played more than 10 snaps and that was Paglia Neotote, who was a USC transfer. He played 51 snaps, so sorry. One other guy who played more than 50 snaps.

Everybody else, Reed Kerikow, who is now obviously transferred, played one snap. Taraja Mitchell played one snap, mostly played on special teams. And then Tripp Chainham, before he changed over to running back, he played 37 snaps as a linebacker that year. In 2023, here’s the linebacker snaps. Tommy Eichenberg in 10 games played 607 snaps. Steel Chambers played 650 snaps. Cody Simon, 374 snaps. CJ Hicks played 75 snaps. Gabe Powers played 21 snaps. And that’s it.

That’s the linebacker snaps. So they just haven’t gone into the rotation at all. And I am wondering if for starters, James Zoronitis has made it a point that he wants to do it to the schedule they’re going to play, maybe allows them to not play.

Stephen Means (25:13.97)

Cody Simon 70 snaps against Akron and Marshall in Western Michigan and same for CJ Hicks and Cody’s in Sonny Styles Do we see more of a rotation this year and not necessarily in the Oregon game because You play your best guys when you’re playing the best teams. I get that but The first three games of the season when you’re playing Iowa when you’re playing Michigan State when you’re playing Nebraska when you’re playing Indiana Do we see rotate Penn State? Do we see rotations and those games?

Is it truly a situation where four or five guys can play? Or are we going to be looking at these snaps after seven or eight weeks of football and going, Cody Simon doesn’t come off the field and CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles are basically splitting the other linebacker spot. And that’s kind of just it. Which part of those do we see? Because again, 16, 17 games you got to get through that season, but also kind of in vain of the running back room where you’re very quickly going to get young here, right?

The more guys that can go into the spring in 2025 with some experience, the better. So I am interested and intrigued by what the rotation is going to look like in a year where your non -conference schedule is easy. I’m not gonna sugarcoat, it’s very easy and really.

You don’t play a team that I don’t even think can poke holes in what you might be able to do until Iowa and they’re only gonna poke holes in you or your offense. They’re not gonna poke holes in your defense until I’m proven otherwise. And so Oregon’s really the first time this defense is gonna play a team that can genuinely poke some holes in it and show us if there’s any flaws in it or not. So what that rotation is going to look like. That’s the present. It’s James Laurinaitis taking over a room that he knew back in January was going to need some development.

and they’ve been, they will have been developing for nine months by the time they take the field. What does it look like? But then also how does that continue throughout the year? And do we think this linebacker room can get to a level where even if it’s the fourth best unit on the defense, simply because the safeties are good, the cornerbacks are good, the defensive line is good.

Stephen Means (27:17.65)

Like being the fourth best unit on the team, you’re still at nine out of 10, eight and a half out of 10 at best because all the other groups are nine and a half out of tens are better. That’s the present. I think where this gets exciting Andrew is as we look towards the future where James Laurinaitis is already starting to build stuff. So we’re going to take a final break here and then get into that where I think it’s going to be a bigger James Laurinaitis conversation here on Buckeye Talk.

Andrew (27:23.054)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (27:42.674)

Get the text 614 -350 -3315, two week free trial, 399 after that. Also check us out on YouTube, man. We do little YouTube videos every so often. We do stand -ups a lot when we’re out and on the scene. We’ve been doing some things where you just see our floaty heads. Recently, the most recent one we did was when Riley Pettigon, the five -star linebacker at a Texas committee, and we kind of had a shortened version of this conversation, Andrew, and what James Laurinaitis has done with his first offering of recruits.

Riley Pettigon number 31 player number four linebacker in the country, five star recruit from Texas. TJ Alford, a four star recruit from Florida, number 48 player and number five linebacker in the country. So two of the nation’s five best linebackers are in this class and they’re not from Ohio. That’s what James Laurinaitis did. That’s something that has not been done in the Ryan Day era until James Laurinaitis became the linebackers coach. And Eli Lee, the lone Ohio kid, number 382, number 41 linebacker.

as a guy that maybe has some Tommy Eichenberg upside, at least that’s the right comparison there.

I mean this is like a tone setter for what we should be expecting from James Zornias as a recruit, right?

Andrew (28:50.638)

Yeah, I feel like the weather person in San Diego, California, when I talk about like Ohio State’s defensive recruiting at this point. Good. Nice. Really good. Really nice. Like, it’s just like, it’s like a whole hum thing at this point where this is kind of what you’ve come to expect from a lot of Ohio State’s recruiters, right? You know, Ohio State, they land a five -star linebacker in Riley Pettijohn. You know, this is a guy with, you know, kind of great sideline to sideline speed. We talked about it at the top, like, you know,

He’s six, one and a half, two 15. I don’t envision he’s going to grow to six, three, two 40, like a Malik Harrison or he’s not going to grow to that level. I mean, Tarvo’s TJ Alford, six, two, two 10. I don’t envision that he’s going to grow to that, you know, two 35, two 40, two 45 kind of mold. You know, Eli Lee may be the closest one is six, three, two 30, but you know, you got guys that can run. You got guys that are physical. Like it’s a really nice mix at linebacker and

In terms of like development, we’re going to have to see. I think that this is a little bit similar to running back where we’re going to have maybe a little bit on a faster track where, you know, we got to see the development of CJ Hicks and Sonny Styles right now. And like now, whereas, you know, Carlos Loughlin might have a couple of months before we got to see the development of James Peeples. But I think it’s a similar answer for their recruiting where it’s like, okay, this is a new guy on staff, but the early returns have been very good. And I think that, you know, you map out like

Tim Walton on defense. You know, I know there’s a lot of talk about like Larry Johnson every year, but like Larry Johnson still brings in, you know, highly rated defensive lineman. And now all of a sudden you’re adding, what? I don’t know. I was trying to think how to frame like his ceiling is being lumped in there with Tim Walton and Brian Hartline. That’s not crazy to say that the ceiling of James Laurenitis

is kind of being that recruiting guru that so many people, you know, talk about as you have that conversation about Tim Walton, as you have that conversation about Brian Hartline, and then as you have that conversation, Fraggle, about Ryan Day and quarterbacks, right? Like that, that is the level of the bar that he is slowly setting for himself. So it’s too early to say he’s at that level. It’s too early to, you know, pick him and say, he’s the third best recruiter on the staff already because we

Andrew (31:14.638)

you know, definitely we’ve seen it like he’s, he’s still got to maybe another year to prove that, you know, you want to see the 26 kids cause you know, you don’t want to, you know, completely fall off a cliff every, you know, you have a great year and then you fall off a cliff. You fall, have a great year, fall off a cliff. Like that’s just not the way to recruit, but this, this future of Ohio State’s linebacker room is incredibly, incredibly impressive, you know, because, you know, you obviously have CJ Hicks and you know, you have Sonny Styles and

You know, you even go back to, you know, you even go back to the 2024 class. you know, I, I know James Laurenitis really liked, Peyton Pierce, you know, he’s the number, I think he was like top two 50 top two 25 linebacker in the 2024 class Peyton Pierce looked like he was going to Notre Dame. And then Brian or, James Laurenitis comes over to Ohio state and all of a sudden Peyton Pierce no longer is really interested in Notre Dame anymore. And now it’s Ohio state. So for him,

to kind of carry that interest over. I mean, I think that that kind of speaks to me a lot. You know, you have Garrett Stover, he’s a top 150 recruit, you know, obviously relation there with Cade Stover. You know, you have a lot of talent with these guys that are coming in and you know, I just, it’s really, really hard to look at the linebacker room in any kind of critical sense at this point because

Number one, the car is not really off the lot yet with James Laurinitis where, you know, the development, you haven’t really seen it work or not work, right? You haven’t really seen the CJ Hicks and the Sonny Styles experiments kind of either go well or go poorly. So there’s that. And then you also talk about the recruiting, which has been objectively elite. They have the best linebacker class in the country right now.

It’s hard to say anything other than this unit has one of the highest upsides of... Obviously there’s positional value, but this unit has one of the highest upsides of any position group on Ohio State’s roster for 2025, 2026, 27, 28. It’s really, really impressive.

Stephen Means (33:35.09)

So I’ll say 2025 recruiting class has four or five star recruits in it. We talked about tape in last week. This is the first of the defensive guys. The other three are defensive five star recruits. This is the first of the defensive guys we’re gonna talk about. And obviously we’ll talk about cornerbacks tomorrow and Devin Sanchez and Naim Hoffer and the rest of those guys. But.

Stephen Means (33:55.922)

The last time I’ll say pull the five star recruit out of Texas at linebacker, it didn’t, it just didn’t feel like it felt like there was still meat left on the bone when he left here. And Riley is a different style of linebacker. As you mentioned, he’s more of what linebackers are today was six foot one, 215 pounds. And that’s high school six or one, 250 pounds. So like imagine what that’s gonna look like after he’s gone through a college football weight and conditioning program. But what is he?

for lack of a better way of putting that. What is Ohio State getting in Riley Pettigon? And is this a guy where maybe not in year one, just because the room is where it is and they might not need him to, but in 2026 is just gonna be one of your two starting linebackers for Ohio State?

Andrew (34:43.79)

I mean, that would be the way that the recruiting rankings would say it. But like, you also got to remember that if, like, I know I just kind of floated that situation of like, is it possible to put styles and Hicks on the field together? What would that look like? I mean, they were, they’re recruiting Eli Lee to play the mic. And like, if, like it can Petty John or Alford play the mic. We’ll see. Like they recruited Alford and they kind of told him they viewed him as a Will linebacker that Ryan Shazier, Jerome Baker type of player.

Stephen Means (34:57.202)

No, for sure.

Stephen Means (35:13.266)

You mean Petit John if name offers plan will line back and we have a problem. TJ Alfred, OK.

Andrew (35:16.974)

or who would T no TJ Allford. Yeah, not offered. Allford. Yeah. Yeah. The get your get your headphones better. It’s all TJ Allford. So like if but all fords because I don’t want to disrespect him either. Like all fords a top 50 recruit. Like you’re talking about the number 29 overall recruit and the number 48 overall recruit. So it’s not like there’s like a huge gap. I know one of them has an extra star next to his name, but you know,

Stephen Means (35:43.57)

That’s a pretty huge gap. Because if the, I mean, the rankings are based off of the NFL draft and that’s a whole 20. No, for sure. Like if one’s 48 and one’s 29, that means one of the guys went on Thursday and the other guy went on Friday.

Andrew (35:47.278)

Yeah, but they’re also the number four and five linebackers in the country. There’s one difference.

Andrew (35:58.67)

I mean, but yeah, at that point it’s like one guy went on Thursday at 1030 and the other guy went on Friday at 742.

Stephen Means (35:59.026)

if we were using Java.

Stephen Means (36:06.93)

Yeah, but the other guy had already done his press conference and everything, you know? I don’t know. I’m just, because honestly, seriously, the reason why I asked about, Alfred’s been in the class for a while. And so we’ve had an opportunity to talk about him in a little, in a way that maybe we haven’t been able to talk about Riley Pettigian. Cause this is like, Alfred was a big deal. I’m not going to say he wasn’t a big deal. And I’m not dismissing that.

Andrew (36:10.542)

Why are we speaking like this? Like, I think it’s possible, but it’s possible because you, yeah.

Andrew (36:28.43)

Yeah, all four is a very big deal.

Stephen Means (36:33.426)

James Orinatis has put a five -star recruit out of Texas, and he’s been an assistant coach in college football for six months. Like, that’s...

That’s a different conversation, regardless of how you want to spin it. And so there’s the James Zoranitis aspect of this of like, that’s a sign of what he could be. Yes. But there’s also just, there’s only 30 to 35 of these guys coming out every year of these guys who are considered the best players in the country. Five star recruits expected to be potential first round draft picks one day. And Riley Pettigon is one of those guys and he’s coming to Ohio state.

off of us watching Ohio State turn Tommy Eichenberg into a consensus second team All -American. And now we just got done kind of talking about how maybe CJ Hicks and Sonny Stiles, if they hit, maybe they can be that if they’re the best version of what we think they can be. And now they’re going to bring in another guy who doesn’t have context. Sonny Stiles has context. His context is he spent his first two years playing safety. CJ Hicks’ context is he had to spend three years learning how to play linebacker before he was ready to play.

Riley Pettigon’s from Texas where those boys are kind of ready to go and so that’s why I’m asking about him in a maybe a different way one because he just he’s new he just happened a week and a half ago as you’re listening to this pod but also this is a five -star kid from Texas who’s like known for developing high -level talent that’s why I’m asking what is a wild state getting in this guy and is this a guy will realistically where the room could be by the time he’s the sophomore in 2026

If he’s in the too deep as a true freshman, should he be? Is it a realistic expectation that he’s your starting, whether it’s Mike or Will Linebacker? Yes, what they’re recruiting him as is one thing, but then they get here and things change, right? They recruited Cade Stover as a linebacker and he ended up being a John Mackey award finalist by the time you get up out of here. Is it realistic to expect that Riley Pettigian by the time he’s in his second year in 2026 should be on the field as a starting linebacker at Ohio State, regardless of which spot it’s at?

Andrew (38:19.246)

Yeah.

Andrew (38:35.15)

Yeah, it’s absolutely realistic. I think you have to be impressed with, you know, the physicality and the speed mostly. I think that that’s kind of what jumps off the page to me, especially with Alford and with Pettigon. That, I think when you group those two guys together, the speed of those guys is really impressive. So with Pettigon, yeah, absolutely. Like the 2026 starting linebacking corps could very well be like Eli Lee and Riley Pettigon. Or it can, you know, like that’s not out of the question.

Especially because we’re talking about a linebacking core where in 2026 Sonny Styles will be gone, CJ Hicks will be gone. Well...

Stephen Means (39:08.786)

Maybe, maybe they’ll be gone. That’s the thing. They both have at least three years of eligibility left. So that’s the reason. That’s the next level, the question I’m at. That’s why I asked it, because it gets back to the thing I was talking about earlier with rotation. If.

Andrew (39:15.854)

Yeah, so I guess they could still be here. I guess they could still be here for a fifth year.

Stephen Means (39:29.234)

Ohio State’s in a position where maybe Riley’s ready to go in year two. Maybe Gay Powers, who would be in year five, is still around and ready to go. Maybe CJ Hicks is still around. And I understand, I’m with you. CJ Hicks and Sonny Silas maybe won’t be here in year five. Maybe, I would assume that maybe this year and next year they’d be still around and they both go pro.

Andrew (39:48.206)

Yeah, one of them’s in the pros or it doesn’t work out, whatever, yeah.

Stephen Means (39:50.194)

You write but But they could still be around that’s still on the table there, you know, our Ville Reese is still cooking around You still got Peyton Pierce. You still got Garrett Stover the reason I asked that about Riley Petit John and we can throw TJ off into that conversation Maybe not Eli Leah some so much if he’s on a Tommy Eichenberg plan Tommy Eichenberg wasn’t ready to go into his third year in the program

Andrew (39:59.726)

Right.

Stephen Means (40:13.906)

Could Ohio State’s linebacker court get to a point where it could realistically be in a world where the expectation is they’re playing four or five guys because the room is that deep.

Andrew (40:25.294)

Yeah, absolutely. I think so. I think we do need to maybe come back down to earth a little bit with kind of the understanding of like, look, man, like if Brian Hartline does this in like 2026 and like in the 2026 class, I mean, and then you’ve got a bunch of freshmen that are Riley Pettigon, but a year younger and TJ Alford, but a year younger. Yeah, like if he if he just does his thing and you have three other elite linebackers that are coming into Ohio State’s class, people are going to leave.

Stephen Means (40:44.722)

I’m James Lauren Onish.

Andrew (40:55.31)

Like you gotta understand, like you’re not gonna have 10 in the room. So people are gonna leave, but I do think it’s realistic to look at Ohio State’s linebacking corps and say like, this is a really good problem to have because if you do lose some of these guys, you are building up a room now where the talent is such and the talent is gonna be there where you go, whoa, like this is elite level four star talent. And you’re kind of at that position where it’s a little bit like receiver with Ohio State where you go, man, you know, we lost this.

Stephen Means (40:57.394)

Yeah, and that’s why I’m having the rotation conversation.

Andrew (41:25.166)

four star number 52 overall player because he transferred or because he went to the NFL or whatever. And it’s not like a Luke whippler situation on the offensive line where you’re kind of like looking around like, we didn’t expect that. Now we’re in trouble. You’re looking around a linebacker going, okay, well, I wish he would have stayed, but you know, we’ve got another guy here. So I think you’re building up the depth and you’re building up a good problem to have because there’s always going to be a problem to have. It’s just whether you wanted to be a good one or a bad one.

obviously going to choose a good one every single day of the week. So I think, you know, the more you recruit like this, the more people are going to leave, but the more you’re going to be okay with.

Stephen Means (42:01.714)

But even then, I don’t know if people are always gonna leave. Ohio State hasn’t lost a guy to a transfer portal yet that I think it’s missed, to your point. It’s like...

Andrew (42:09.678)

That’s what I’m saying. You’re going to get to the point where, for example, if CJ Hicks entered the transfer portal or if Sonny Styles entered the transfer portal after this year because they were like, you know what, I’ve got to go. They would miss them and that would be a problem. But if that happens in a year or two, you’re going to be like, yeah, well, we’ve been recruiting at maybe the best level or top three level in the country at this position. I think we’ll be okay.

Stephen Means (42:20.914)

They would miss them. Yes.

Stephen Means (42:26.898)

Probably not.

Stephen Means (42:34.226)

And that’s what you have to keep an eye on. And I think both of us are trying to take the responsible route and allow it to play out because doing something once means we know you can do it. Are you consistent at it? And that’s what James Zorinaitis’ next couple of classes are going to be about because the question is, the biggest thing you’re in question for me is, can James Zorinaitis challenge Tim Walton and Brian Hartline for Ohio State’s most valuable non -play caller?

because they’re not, they’re, Ron Harlan’s a coordinator, but he’s not the play calling coordinator. So it’s, it’s a little bit different. The non, the can, he challenged them for that right now. It’s clearly those two. And I think what helps those two in, if James Lourdes and I just does get into that conversation is they’re both also coaching positions that have high level NFL draft value, right? Cornerbacks consistently going to top 10, wide receivers consistently going to top 10, linebackers don’t always go on the top 10, at least not the top linebackers that are now in the NFL.

Don’t typically want a top ten like Michael Parsons was a borderline top ten pick, but also now he’s edge rusher to that point So but but for what James Zoranitis can mean for that linebacker room It’s does he seem like he’s on a trajectory to be what to the linebacker room with Brian Hartline and Tim Walton Archer the cornerback and wide receiver rooms early signs say yes But again you do it once can you do it a couple of more times?

Andrew (43:37.294)

He does a bunch of different stuff, yeah.

Stephen Means (44:01.394)

even if you think you know the answer that is yes now we just have to see it play out which is what the future is about we’re projecting the idea that ohio state could have three former players on its coaching staff and all three of them have been home run hires and the best way that you could possibly be a home run hire which means they hit a home run but also there were people on base i think they call that a grand slam grand slam it’s going to be an interesting thing i sounded like an old man for a reason i think it’s going to be an interesting thing to watch play out

Just like a cup we talked about with Carlos Loughlin last Tuesday, he’s in a position where there’s a bit of development that’s got to go on behind the scenes, even if we’re excited about what 2024 might look like.

Well also, the future is intriguing. Now let’s watch it see and play out and then see if it actually plays out the way we think it’s going to play out. Get the text 614 -350 -3315. That was day two of the defensive side of the ball as we continue to reset and just evaluate and deep dive into every single position.

on the Ohio State football roster as Ryan Day enters his sixth year as a head coach. He’s five years in. We’re looking at the past, we’re looking at the present, and we’re looking at the future. We did defensive line on Monday. We did linebacker today on Tuesday as you’re listening to this pod. We did offense all last week. Go check that out. Quarterback, running back, wide receiver, tight end, and offensive line. Next up are the cornerbacks where...

There have been some talks that maybe BIA is back and it seems like on all fronts it is back. And I think this one, Andrew, is going to be interesting because it’s a story literally on how BIA came back because it started out at a high point and then it had a couple of years where things got wishy washy. And then Tim Walton showed up in 2022 and got things back on track. That’ll be on Wednesday. And then Thursday will be safety to wrap things up. And then obviously Friday, we’re just going to have some fun with this to find we’ll be back on the pod and we’re just going to

Stephen Means (45:54.548)

to be millennials and do what millennials do and that’s talk about video games just to wrap up the week. That’ll do it here on Buckeye Talk. That was Andrew Gillis and I’m Stephen Means.