CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, the hosts discuss the Cavs’ standing in the Eastern Conference and around the league with their current roster. The conversation then shifts to potential trades involving Brandon Ingram and how they could impact the Cavs’ roster and standing in the league.
More Cavs coverage
Takeaways:
- The Cavs’ performance in the summer league games is not a definitive indicator of their potential in the regular season.
- The Cavs are ranked lower in the NBA power rankings due to their lack of significant offseason additions, and the depth and competitiveness of the conference.
- Potential trades involving Brandon Ingram could significantly impact the Cavs’ roster and standing in the league.
- The Cavs’ core four players, including Evan Mobley and Darius Garland, are crucial to their success and development.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. I’m joined by your favorite beat reporter, Chris Fiedor. What’s going on, Chris? How are you doing this fine morning?
Chris Fedor (00:22.54)
Good man, it’s British Open Thursday. Check out any of the golf.
Ethan Sands (00:27.496)
You know I didn’t. You know
Chris Fedor (00:29.186)
Come on...
Ethan Sands (00:31.974)
Your other friends are golf people, not me. That’s not my niche. That’s not what I get into. We know this. Football, basketball, baseball.
Chris Fedor (00:38.122)
Come on, so much fun. So much fun. It’s the Open Championship. It’s very, very different. It’s early in the morning. Grab a cup of coffee, wake up at five o ‘clock, watch the British Open. Let’s go.
Ethan Sands (00:54.854)
I’m I’m not I am NOT a morning person. We’re recording this around 930 in the morning and this was a struggle for me So I know uh -uh I am a night owl as we know we usually record these podcasts around 10 11 o ‘clock I’ll be up till 3 4 in the morning editing whatever it has to do to get them done for our subtexters our listeners But you know this early is already enough. I’m not getting up at 5 a .m. I promise you that
Chris Fedor (01:09.75)
Yeah.
Chris Fedor (01:22.104)
That’s hilarious.
Ethan Sands (01:24.532)
Even if Team USA, the basketball team would have been playing in the morning, you wouldn’t catch me watching those games neither. So nothing against golf, even though it’s not my thing, but mornings? Boo. Uh -uh. But speaking of late nights, the Cleveland Cavaliers played in their third summer league game yesterday with tip off at 10 PM Eastern time because they’re playing in Las Vegas and
The Cavs took another L, 96 -85 to the Golden State Warriors. It was an ugly one, Chris. I mean, they were down 20 -plus at points and then came back in the fourth quarter. It was, what you say, non -competitive for most of the game. But I really wanted to talk about the three guys that we really wanted to look at for this summer league, right? Craig Porter Jr., Imani Bates, and Jalen Tyson.
Craig Porter jr. Kind of got like a green light last night He shot five of 16 for just 14 points on the night It felt like they were kind of running the offense through him and it was Rather than running sets and things that we hope that the Cavs are gonna do this season It was more ice a ball and hey, let’s see if Craig Porter jr. Is just better than everybody else on the court And then Amani was four of 11 for 13
And Jaylen Tyson was just two of six for four points. So Chris, I know we don’t want to harp on this because we talked about Summer League is a very small contingent of the NBA season and what matters, especially with not a lot of these players showing that they’re going to be able to get minutes in an NBA roster. Let’s say anytime soon. But Chris, because tonight, Thursday, they play their last game of Summer League because they’re not going to be NBA Summer League champions like they were last year. They weren’t
clearly. But what did you take away and what did the cast kind of look forward to tonight other than it being over?
Chris Fedor (03:29.08)
Well tonight’s their last game of the tournament. They’ve got one more game that is added that all 26 teams that don’t make the playoffs actually play. It’s a consolation game that is effectively meaningless. But you’re right, this is the last scheduled game of the tournament round of Summer League. So I don’t know what to expect honestly. I think the only thing that I can say when it comes to Summer League for me...
In terms of my evaluation, I try not to put that much stock into what I see at Summer League, but you just don’t want guys to look like a disaster. You just don’t want guys to play poorly because I think that can be a little bit eye -opening and maybe even a little bit alarming. If they’re not going to play well in that environment against that level of competition, what does that say about their chances of playing well?
When it comes to NBA, when it comes to the regular season, when it comes to training camp, again, it’s not something that how they play in summer league for this week and a half stint in Vegas is going to determine everything when it comes to a future of a player or anything along those lines. But you certainly don’t want your guy
If it’s somebody that is on a two -way contract, if it’s somebody who is going to be in the every night rotation, you just don’t want them looking completely out of place. And last night was only one game. It was against one team, the Golden State Warriors, but Jaylen Tyson being as silent as he was, not playing very well, not being able to get his shot off, not being part of the offense, wasn’t the best sign for the Cavs.
You know, Imani Bates has not been the most efficient throughout the course of summer league. wasn’t just last night. It was the previous two games as well. He scored, but he didn’t score efficiently. He didn’t shoot a high percentage from three point range. And Craig Porter Jr. I think we understand that that Craig is different in terms of an evaluation piece because we saw him against NBA competition, because we saw him in meaningful games last year for the Cavs.
Chris Fedor (05:47.704)
He played well in the in -season tournament against Philadelphia, right? He was a part of their rotation at various points last year because of some of the injuries that the Cavs were dealing with. He was unfazed. He wasn’t rattled. He looked like he belonged. So one blippy type game where Craig goes five of 16 from the field and three of nine from three point range doesn’t really tell me a whole bunch. And this summer league wasn’t going to tell me anything about Craig Porter Jr. because I saw enough evidence of him.
I’m at the NBA level. So I was looking at it more from a money standpoint, from Jalen Tyson standpoint. And to be honest with you, I haven’t been blown away by either guy. I think that’s okay. I, I didn’t think I was going to be blown away by either guy, in, this environment. but it’s, it’s just, it’s always a hard evaluation because so much is determined by.
what is the player being asked to do? Right? What teammates is he sharing the floor with? Last year at summer league, Sam Merrill was there and he lit it up and he played so well that, you know, there were people inside the organization that were saying, Hmm, interesting. Maybe we can do this with him on the offensive end of the floor. Maybe we can take advantage of his three points shooting. Maybe we can take advantage of his movement.
Maybe he is somebody that we should be more excited about and see if he could potentially go into the rotation immediately. And then he played well at training camp and then he played well in the preseason. And then all of a sudden, know, Sam was somebody who became part of the rotation, not every night because JB Biggerstaff shortened his rotation at times, but he was somebody that the Cavs felt like belonged. You know what I mean? That was the kind of performance at summer league.
that was a little bit eye -opening and more impressive, certainly, than what we have seen from the group that the calves brought out there this summer.
Ethan Sands (07:56.628)
And we had talked about previously, like, Jalen Tyson was doing the routine things as an NBA rookie that made it seem like he could potentially, if his play continued, be in arguments to be in the rotation and things like that. Games like last night don’t help your chances, right? But like, also, like we say, we don’t put too much stock in one NBA summer league game. He’s still more than likely gonna get
Chances that practices is gonna get chances early on in the season when the Cavs are trying to figure out what they’re doing with this roster with this lineup especially because We feel like this roster is not complete quite yet. but Chris Like it was like we said, we don’t want to harp on this too long don’t want to bring it up too much because it’s just summer league but ESPN came out with a post free agency NBA
Chris Fedor (08:28.616)
Mm -hmm.
Ethan Sands (08:53.972)
ranking for teams I Don’t know. That’s what the headline says Chris. I just read don’t don’t don’t hate the messenger man Man, I just I just read things come on But the title says post free agency NBA power rankings all 30 teams biggest offseason questions and It’s interesting right because we’ve talked
Chris Fedor (08:54.88)
free agency
Ethan Sands (09:19.048)
Where we kind of see the Cavs being in the Eastern Conference. We haven’t gotten into the entire NBA. I think I said I had them fifth in the Eastern Conference. Chris, I don’t remember if you did say where you had them placed after what’s going on in the offseason thus far. Do you want to give your take before we get into what ESPN went into?
Chris Fedor (09:42.07)
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think they’re behind Boston. I think they’re behind the Knicks. The Knicks have some things that they still need to figure out. Losing Isaiah Hartenstein is kind of a big deal for them, especially considering the fact that so much of what made them special was their offensive rebounding, their toughness, their physicality, their defense. And they lose a lot of that without Isaiah. And I think they’re still going to be on the hunt for
A playable replacement for him, not to his level, of course, because he got a big contract and that caliber player is no longer available in this marketplace. And the Knicks certainly don’t have the space to go out and get that kind of player. And I don’t think they have the trade assets to go out and get that kind of player, but somebody who can
Some of the things that Isaiah did for them from a toughness standpoint, from physicality standpoint, from an offensive rebounding, defensive rebounding standpoint. I think it’s something that they’re still going to look for in saying that. I do like the addition of McEl bridges for them. Obviously OG and Inobi is awesome. And the numbers that they had with OG on the floor made them an elite basketball team. If he can stay healthy, that’s a big if with him.
But I think you have to give the Knicks credit. think you have to understand what they accomplished last year and give them more of an edge over the Cavs, certainly. So I’ve got Boston ahead of the Cavs. I got the Knicks ahead of the Cavs. I think the Bucks sneakily under the radar made some really, really smart moves given their salary cap situation that they’re in. Given the limitations that they have when it comes to team building because of all the bloated salaries that they have on the roster.
Under the radar type guys on the cheap and Gary Trent Jr. Delon, right? I think that was smart for them. And I think I have them above the calves as well. in Philadelphia for sure, because when you add Paul George to what they already had, that makes them really, really formidable. And I think Paul, adds a different dimension to them offensively, and defensively. And I think he kind of gives them.
Chris Fedor (11:55.724)
the type of player that they had been missing during the Joel Embiid type championship window. So I don’t think he’s going to conflict stylistically with Embiid. I don’t think he’s going to conflict stylistically with Tyrese Maxey. I think Paul George is the kind of guy who’s going to enhance the 76ers. So those are the four teams that I have above the Cavs for sure. And I think Indiana is pretty close. I think that’s a tough conversation.
because of all the reasons that we mentioned with Indiana last off season. They had a lot of success in the playoffs. They got some advantages in the playoffs that they capitalized on. It felt like to me more of a smoke and mirrors type run that they made in the playoffs. And they’ll have an opportunity to validate that run that they made in the playoffs this year. They’ll have an opportunity with Pascal Siakam and Tyrese Halliburton to gain more continuity in chemistry.
And, they have Ben Matheran coming back from an injury and that should help them as well. But I give the Cavs a slight edge because I think their best player, their most important player is better and more reliable. And I think this team has more untapped potential with somebody like Kenny Atkinson, who I think can get more out of Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell
who I think can get more out of Jared Allen and Evan Mobley together. And we’ve talked about the stylistic complications that the Cavs are going to face and the roster imbalance and all that kind of stuff. But coming into the season, I think Indiana and Cleveland very, very close, but I’ll give the Cavs a slight edge because of Donovan, because of the new coach, and because I just can’t see Darius.
who has been an all -star in the past. I cannot see him, Ethan, having the kind of terrible season that he had this past year because I just don’t think he’s going to deal with the same things that led to him having that kind of season.
Ethan Sands (14:06.216)
Don’t jinx him Chris because we know he’s injury prone but I mean I think
Chris Fedor (14:10.742)
Yeah. It’s something that he’s got to prove, right?
Ethan Sands (14:14.452)
100 % and I think it’s interesting with Indiana right because we go in to the playoffs with everybody having these set notions and thought processes and it’s on paper right everything’s on paper until it gets played out everybody was like oh if the Cavs would have won the last game of the season then they would have ended up playing the Indiana Pacers who aren’t good they stink they have a better matchup with them yada yada yada
Chris Fedor (14:23.903)
Mm -hmm.
Ethan Sands (14:42.396)
and they ended up making it to the Eastern Conference Finals. Obviously they had a different path. had to go through some teams that definitely were dealing with injuries and things of that nature, but you can’t discredit a conference finals appearance, right? Like no matter what way they took to get there, they got there and that’s where the Cavs want to
Chris Fedor (15:08.268)
No, you can’t discredit it entirely, right? You can’t tell the story of this past season without talking about that. But at the same time, you can try and put it in perspective. And it’s hard to predict what would have happened if certain things would have been different, but they certainly had a favorable road given the fact that Milwaukee had Chris Middleton dealing with ankle issues, right?
Damien Lillard still trying to find his way at the time for Milwaukee. No Yannis for the Bucks. Hello. And then you talk about the Knicks series. They were playing, what, six guys by the time that series concluded because of all of the different injuries that they were dealing with. So yeah, credit to Indiana for taking advantage of that. Credit to the Pacers for showing that in a playoff environment, their style can
to some degree, but they certainly got the kind of, when you talk about like an NCAA tournament and you talk about a team randomly making a run to the final four or something like that, part of what goes into that is the bracket and the region that they were in. know, Indiana, it felt like more of their playoff run. And this is going to come across terribly and people are going to be really, really upset about this.
But it felt like more of their playoff run was tied to what the other team that they were playing was missing as opposed to what they did to earn
Ethan Sands (16:43.55)
They were definitely the Cinderella team, Chris. That’s definitely what we would classify. We’re talking about NCAA terms. But I mean, it was definitely interesting. And then I talked to somebody from the Boston Celtics media group after that series between the Pacers and them. And I was like, what did you see from them that makes you think that they were challenging -wise? Because he said that the Boston Celtics played all the teams in the Eastern Conference.
And then he said that the Indiana Pacers gave the Boston Celtics the most hardship. And I was like, they were the only team that got swept, if I’m not incorrect. And he was like, true, but this was the most competitive series I had seen. And I was like, I don’t know if you’re delusional or what you saw, but give me all that information. And he was like, well, this is in this pace space like garden. I was like, okay, anyway, but let’s get into
this NBA power ranking because they had a different list than we did, Chris. They had the Cavs even lower, but we’re going to get into this really quickly. So at number one, obviously as everybody does, they had the Boston Celtics at the top of the list. Number two, Oklahoma City Thunder, Minnesota Timberwolves at number three, New York Knicks at number four, Dallas Mavericks at number five, Philly at number six, Denver at number seven.
Milwaukee Bucks at number 8, Indiana Pacers at number 9, and Cleveland Cavaliers at number 10, with Orlando and Phoenix shortly after them, and even Memphis as the number 13 team. So based on this list in the Eastern Conference, they have the Cavs ranked number 6 in the East and number 10 in the entire NBA. So, Chris, I feel like this list is pretty valid so far.
at least the top 10 is pretty valid. There are some teams that I feel like are interchangeable. And I also feel like it might be a little early to put the Knicks up there, even above the Dallas Mavericks, because you don’t know what the Knicks are going to look like. Again, on paper versus in game is kind of my stitch in trying to figure out how those are going to look rather than giving the benefit of the doubt before the season actually happens.
Chris Fedor (19:08.67)
Mm -hmm.
Ethan Sands (19:09.586)
What do you think about this list and how do you think you would rank at least the top
Chris Fedor (19:18.206)
I think the two things that stand out to me from a Cavs perspective Ethan the main things number one six of the top ten teams are in the Eastern Conference and I think that speaks to the depth and the high level Team that the Cavs are going to have to deal with Throughout the course of the season and look things can change from now mid -july to January things can then change again from January to March things then can change again
from March going into the playoffs. What is right now doesn’t mean it will be by the time the playoffs roll around. And that’s where the Cavs ultimately want to get to. And they want to get as far as they can possibly get when it comes to a playoff run. They want to get further than they did last year, which was the Eastern Conference semifinals. The road to get there is going to be very, very challenging for the Cavs. I think there’s a reason why.
The Cavs are a little bit further down that list too, because they didn’t make any additions this off season. Their biggest addition was a new coach in Kenny Atkinson. You know, how many wins is that worth? If you’re a fan duel, if you’re Draft Kings, if you’re one of these sports books and you’re trying to calculate a team’s over -under total for wins, how do you calculate, how do you build in a new coach coming in?
According to the odds makers, it doesn’t make that much of a deal because I think the Cavs win total is set at 47 and a half. Think about where they finished last year and the win total that they had last year. Um, so I totally understand why people are looking at the Cavs saying, what are we supposed to do with this team? Their only addition beyond Kenny Atkinson, a new head coach who’s going to bring in a new offensive system.
Maybe a little more creativity. Their only other addition is first round pick Jaylen Tyson. And is he going to be in the rotation? Is he in the top eight of their roster? Is he in the top nine of their roster? So what are we supposed to do with this team? How do we rank this team? and again, there are still moves that the Cavs theoretically could make. They could pull off a trade. They could pull off a sign in trade involving Isaac Ikoro.
Chris Fedor (21:41.304)
The evolution of Evan Mobley is something that’s going to be hard to quantify, right? The bounce back capability of Darius Garland, that’s something that’s going to be hard to quantify. But so much of the Cavs progress, unless they make a sign and trade or another trade, is going to be internal. How much better does this group get together with a new coach in a new system? And how much better do these individual players get?
As they continue to grow throughout their career. Evan Mobley is still a young player. Darius Garland is still a young player. So that variable is hard to quantify and it’s hard to predict as well. So I totally understand why a lot of these people that are making power rankings or they’re putting odds together don’t exactly know what to do with the Cavs. They didn’t have somebody like Paul George come in. Right. They didn’t make free agency pickups to this point. They don’t have.
A backup center on the roster at this point of the off season, their backup center is they’re starting power forward and Evan Mobley. So usually when, when you do this, you look for differences within a team, look for changes within a team of what’s going to lead to them going higher or lower or something along those lines. And the Cavs just didn’t provide that. And if you’re looking at the free agency marketplace, there really isn’t anybody out
that could be considered a substantial upgrade for the calves. And we’ve talked about their complications when it comes to the salary cap and they can’t really, use the full mid level exception and bring back Isaac Okoro and stay below the apron. They’re probably going to be a tax team to begin with, depending on what happens with Isaac. So everybody knew that the calves were going to have that kind of quiet off season unless.
They made a significant trade, which they haven’t done to this point in time, but the addition of Jetty Osman is not going to change where they stand in power rankings, right? The addition of Doug McDermott, if they want to go that direction is certainly not going to change where they are in terms of the power rankings. Adding some kind of backup center that can give you some minutes in the way that Tristan Thompson
Chris Fedor (24:08.772)
last season, that’s not going to make things significantly different for this team. So I think people are looking at them fairly. I think they’re looking at them honestly. And again, I think they’re on that kind of tier in the Eastern Conference where they’re not the top team. They’re not the upper echelon team. But they’re that next rung that has potential to go higher.
depending on how this all looks together and depending on how their young guys continue to progress.
Ethan Sands (24:44.786)
And obviously this is before like all of the scheduling information comes out because we know that the Cavs last year went on a major run even without Darius Garland and Evan Mobley that kind of changed their projection in the playoff picture because they just went on one of the best runs in streaks in the NBA last year when they had a favorable schedule, right? As you’re supposed to and right. There’s more
Chris Fedor (24:51.01)
Mm -hmm.
Chris Fedor (25:02.699)
Mm -mm.
Ethan Sands (25:11.996)
chance that there is going to be like a week or two like that for the Cavs again, but you can’t bank on that and you have to figure out how these guys are going to match up with these tough opponents if they’re going to match up more than two or three times in a season. And it feels like when you look at this roster right now, when you look at how they match up, right? It still feels like they’re trying to figure out if they have a big two or if they have a big
Chris Fedor (25:30.765)
no.
Ethan Sands (25:41.404)
And I think that’s dependent on Evan Mobley and Darius Garland because they kind of pitched Donovan Mitchell. Hey, you’re going to have a running mate in Darius Garland as soon as you get here. He’s an All -Star. He’s doing good things. But Darius had an off year last year. Can he get back to that standard? Or is it going to be more of, hey, Evan Mobley, you ready to step up? You ready to take the three point load? You ready to do these kinds of things? Yeah.
Chris Fedor (25:42.945)
Yeah.
Chris Fedor (25:48.93)
Bye bye.
Ethan Sands (26:09.426)
You’re now the running mate for Donovan Mitchell and probably somebody they talked to with about him potentially being a running mate later on in his career, but that has gotten expedited quite quickly when it comes to the progression of what he’s dealing with. But you also mentioned that he is the backup center as well. And we’ve seen Evan Mobley recently getting up shots.
Chris Fedor (26:09.452)
Mm -hmm.
Ethan Sands (26:32.596)
and doing his work to improve his handle and create spacing and all the necessary things that we’ve talked about. But I hope he’s getting his cardio in too, because if it’s the roster that we got now, he’s going to be running around a lot during the season and he might have heavy minutes. And I know Kenny Atkinson has talked about wanting to spread the workload. He said, am I going to play Donovan Mitchell 25 minutes a game? Probably not.
because he’s gonna play him a little bit more than that. it’s gotta spread the wealth and if you don’t have a backup center that you can rely on, that puts more stress on Evan Mobley like what happened with Donovan Mitchell last year when it comes to the
Chris Fedor (27:18.54)
Yeah. so the other question that I had for you is there’s a lot of conversation still about are the cabs going to keep the core four together? Are the cabs going to make some kind of secondary marketplace trade after the first wave of free agency? Brandon Ingram continues to be a name that has floated out there. I think he’s probably the highest profile name available at this point.
we’ve talked about cam Johnson from the Brooklyn nets. We’ve talked about DeAndre Hunter from the Atlanta Hawks. I do think, yeah, I do think Brandon Ingram is probably the biggest name remaining. Unless they’re not going to go the Lowry marketing route and they don’t have what it takes to get Lowry marketing, but he’s a big name too. So I don’t want to discredit him. so it does seem like Brandon Ingram. My question to you is this.
Hypothetically, we do have to get out of here because I got to go pick up my sum from Perky Kids, but hypothetically, if the Cavs were to make a deal for Ingram, so Brandon Ingram makes $36 million, the kind of deal it would either center around Darius, right? Or it would center around Jared Allen, just because you’re talking about finances. For the sake of this conversation, Darius doesn’t make a whole bunch of sense.
Given the fact that they have DeJonte Murray already on that roster and they still have CJ McCollum on that roster. So if you’re talking about team building and roster makeup, I would think that New Orleans would be more interested in Jared Allen for Brandon Ingram because they don’t have a starting caliber center on their roster. So in this hypothetical, it would be a deal.
Involving the Cavs trading out Jared Allen and let’s say spare parts salary filler to make those match Jared’s at 20 George and Yang would get you up to 28 five and Dean Wade or something like that would get you the rest of the way and maybe like Ty Jerome or something but salary filler type guys the main deal would
Chris Fedor (29:33.292)
Jared Allen for Brandon Ingram. If that’s the type of deal that the Cavs would make the remainder of this off season, how does that change your view with their standing in the Eastern Conference?
Ethan Sands (29:48.296)
bad thing is, I don’t know how much it could, right? Because Brandon Ingram, I don’t think he’s a guy that I would put at the fore, right? Like he’s not strong enough to me to guard power forwards in this league. And then if you were, if you’re saying that you would get rid of Jared Allen, then it’s like you slide Evan Mobley to the five and then you got
Chris Fedor (29:55.529)
Hmm.
Chris Fedor (30:04.345)
No.
Ethan Sands (30:16.446)
probably figure out who’s gonna play the four and then there’s gonna be more discrepancy between Max Drews. Are you coming off the bench? And Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, what kind of rotation are you playing? Are you putting Max Drews then in the two guard spot potentially and saying, okay, you’re gonna switch out with Donovan rather than switching out with Brandon Ingram. I think that makes it more difficult on the lineups and the rotations
Chris Fedor (30:36.684)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, probably.
Ethan Sands (30:46.162)
because the Cavs know how much Max Struis means to this team, how much he impacts winning and things of that nature. But Brandon Ingram’s a scorer. He’s a guy that’s long, can play defense because of his length. But I don’t think he makes that big of an impact on this roster because I think the core four is built so that you can build around them and create more room to win in the margins.
but a guy like Brandon Ingram, he’s not gonna be happy coming off the bench. He’s not gonna be as productive coming off the bench, I don’t think. And he’s probably like, well, you brought me in here to be the small four. Why is Max Trudeau playing over me? Like that’s a conversation that I believe. Okay. So I don’t know. I mean, in that case, I really don’t, I don’t think he improves
Chris Fedor (31:28.745)
Mm -hmm.
No, that one
Chris Fedor (31:35.732)
No chance. No chance.
Ethan Sands (31:43.258)
all that much because you got to figure out who’s the four now, right? There’s feels like there’s still like a missing piece that would have to get filled in rather than he just slides in and makes everything better. Like, no, he slides in and takes a spot and then there’s something open
Chris Fedor (31:58.2)
Okay.
Chris Fedor (32:03.169)
So then let’s flip it, right? Let’s say hypothetically, it’s a three team deal and the player that the Cavs send out in this situation is Darius Garland to more of a point guard needy team. And then New Orleans is able to get their center from somebody else other than the Cavs, because the Cavs aren’t willing to move Jared Allen. Maybe it’s like Orlando or something like that. And the Magic are willing to give the Pelicans.
Wendell Carter Jr. and the Magic get Darius Garland and it’s the kind of point guard that they don’t already have on this roster because so much of the ball handling responsibility for the Magic. It goes to Paulo Banquero, Franz Wagner, and if they have a reliable starting caliber point guard in the makeup of Darius Garland, that could probably take their offense to a different level. So let’s say hypothetically, it’s Darius.
that goes out in that deal, as opposed to Jared Allen. How do you think that changes the equation for the Cavs and where they’re viewed?
Ethan Sands (33:06.738)
I think it changes it drastically, right? Because like now you have a starting lineup that you don’t have to deal with a small backcourt, right? You probably slime Max Struce in the two guard spots and you have somebody who’s able to play defense capably against two three fours, even in switches in Max Struce. Then you have Donovan Mitchell as the point guard running the show and creating offense for guys like Brandon Ingram, Max Struce, Jared Allen and Evan Mobley.
Chris Fedor (33:10.604)
Yeah, I think that’s
Ethan Sands (33:34.138)
And you also have the defensive aspect of it with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley being able to hold down the paint and limit mistakes as well as running from gets associated with the defensive front. I would put them up in contention with the Milwaukee Bucks at that point. So I would move them up instead of having them at five. I would say they’d probably be at four. I think they’d also contend with the New York Knicks, right? Because then you kind of
Chris Fedor (33:53.751)
Mm
Ethan Sands (33:59.506)
more of a big three in that aspect. have three longer guys that are able to do things in that space. and you have guys that can keep up with the New York Knicks is offense. So I would still give the edge to Paul George, Joel Embiid and Tyrese Maxey so far, and obviously the Boston Celtics, but I would move the Cavs up if that were to happen from the five spot in my rankings to the three, four spot.
Chris Fedor (34:13.244)
-huh.
Ethan Sands (34:27.71)
depending on the matchups and everybody being healthy and who they have as their rotational pieces. I think that would be a bigger deal rather than getting rid of Jared Allen because you know how much he impacts not only the offensive end rebounding, but also what he brings on a defensive end and how he helps Evan Mobley so sufficiently on the defensive end as well.
Chris Fedor (34:51.436)
The other thing that that trade allows for the Cavs, if you’re talking about moving forward and if you’re talking about team building and if you’re talking about balancing the salary cap in this era of basketball where the CBA and some of these things that have been introduced, the first apron, the second apron, those things can be really, really penal for a team. Very, very restrictive.
And there are teams around the NBA that are trying to avoid those aprons because of the restrictions involved in that. The thing that this theoretically would allow is that, you know, one of the things when it comes to Brandon Ingram that becomes complicated when, when trading for him is that he’s in the final year of his contract and he’s going to want to cash in. So if you’re a team that is trading for him, you’re giving up prime assets just to appeal to New Orleans to actually move
And then you’re also, if you’re giving up those assets, you’re going to want to sign him long -term. He’s going to want a deal very similar to the one that Darius Garland got a few years ago that just recently kicked in. We’re talking about 40 to $45 million annually, maybe 45 to $50 million annually by the end of the thing. If you trade Jared Allen for him instead of Darius,
then all of sudden you have three bloated high -priced salaries at the top of your salary cap sheet with Evan Mobley coming in the future as well. You almost can’t build a team that way nowadays. But, I said almost. You can find ways around it. There’s always a way. There’s salary cap manipulation, but it becomes very, very difficult and restrictive. But if it’s Darius Garland, you’re essentially in your mind
swapping the salaries of Darius Garland and Brandon Ingram. And then you still only have those two big high price guys at the top of the books with Evan Mobley still coming. And it just makes it a little bit easier to fit all of that under the salary cap and under the first and second apron or whatever you want to do with your roster moving forward. So I think that kind of cleans some things up a little bit more seamlessly.
Chris Fedor (37:13.504)
for the Cavs from that perspective. And I’m not saying that the Cavs are going to do this. I’m not saying that they’re going to trade Darius Garland. I’m just curious because so many people, Ethan, say, well, the Cavs need to do this, this, and this to get on the level of Boston, Milwaukee, and Philadelphia. And if we all admit, and New York too, if we all admit that the player out there that is probably the biggest name, the biggest needle mover is Brandon Ingram. I just wanted to go through just how much does he change things for the
How much would that enhance their chances against those top tier teams in the Eastern conference? And would it be worth it for the Cavs to even consider that if that guy is not going to be a clear cut upgrade, if that guy’s not going to put the Cavs on the same level as Boston. So we talk all the time about improve the wing spot, right? Get somebody who’s better than Max Streus in this particular marketplace.
Like there are only two guys, maybe three that stand out to you as clear cut upgrades that are actually attainable at this point of the off season. And we all say that even that, even that kind of move doesn’t put them on the same level as Boston because Boston’s just different, different, different.
Ethan Sands (38:30.932)
Alright Chris, with all that being said, that’s going to wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris and me by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit Cleveland .com backslash Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. But we can tell you that the people who sign up, stick around.
Chris Fedor (38:33.57)
Alle
Ethan Sands (38:59.624)
because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me and Chris. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y ‘all be safe. We out.
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