Tackling Ageism: How to Get Hired in Mid-Life and Beyond

The U.S. workforce is getting older. Last year, almost 20% of Americans ages 65 and older were employed — that’s nearly double the rate it was in the 1980s. For some older workers, they want to keep working past retirement age; for others, it’s not a choice. So how should older people position themselves in the labor market to overcome age bias?

In the second installment of our ageism series, LinkedIn News Editor Andrew Seaman is talking to Janine Vanderburg, founder and former director of Changing the Narrative, a leading anti-ageism initiative, on the latest episode of his Get Hired podcast. They dive into the do’s and don'ts for getting hired as an older worker.

A transcript of the conversation is available below. You can listen to the episode above or on Apple Podcasts by clicking here.

You can find our other conversations about ageism in the workforce at the links below:

• Thinking About Careers in Midlife and Beyond with Chip Conley

• Strategies for Fighting Age Bias at Work with Ashton Applewhite

• How Executives and Experts View Ageism in the Workforce

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ We also appreciate it when people take a moment to leave a rating and review for the show on Apple Podcasts by clicking here. It helps others find the show.

TRANSCRIPT: Tackling Ageism: How to Get Hired in Mid-Life and Beyond

Andrew Seaman: The US workforce is getting older. Last year, almost 20% of Americans ages 65 and older were employed, that's nearly doubled the rate it was in the 1980s. For some older workers, they want to keep working past retirement age. For others, it's not a choice. Either way, one thing is clear, more workers will have to confront ageism at work, whether it's during the hiring process or in the office.

So, how should older employees position themselves to overcome age bias? In this second installment of our ageism series, we're talking about the do's and don'ts for getting hired as an older worker. In next week's episode, we'll be talking about strategies for combating ageism in the workplace. But for now, we're focusing on tips for landing and keeping a job in midlife and beyond because sometimes you just need to know how to land your next gig, and that's what this show is for. So don't go away, we'll be right back after the break.

From LinkedIn News, this is Get Hired, a podcast for the ups and downs in the ever-changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn senior managing editor for jobs and career development, bringing you conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between. Janine Vanderburg is the founder and former director of Changing the Narrative, a nationwide campaign and nonprofit dedicated to reframing the way we think and talk about age and aging. Janine's an expert on creating age-friendly workplaces. So when it comes to navigating and overcoming age-based stereotypes on the job, she's the person to talk to. Here's Janine.

Janine Vanderburg: So my fighting ageism career in a way is my encore career. I ran a consulting firm for over three decades, and right around The Great Recession, I was working on a project for several foundations about what were people age 55 and over thinking about this next phase of their life. And unlike what prior generations might've been thinking of, people were not thinking about retirement, they were thinking about what I was going to do next. So I developed all of this interest in encore careers, The Great Recession hits, and all of a sudden I am seeing people in their 50s who are shocked that they have been pushed out of work and that nobody is hiring them again because they never had this experience.

So that was kind of my first experience with it and I ended up forming a networking group that just met monthly and people talked about what they were trying to do and that kind of thing, and we were trying to provide hope and inspiration during The Great Recession. And fast-forward, in 2017, I am getting ready to step away from my consulting career, and a friend calls me and says, "I would like to start an anti-ageism initiative and I'd like you to lead in." And what really hooked me in Andrew, was within months as I was doing workshops and just talking to people, hearing so many stories from people who were literally starting in their 40s, 50s, 60s, saying, "That workplace age discrimination thing, it happened to me, it happened to my partner, it happened to my dad." And I started realizing how rampant it was.

And so my strategy was how do I start talking to employers about the business case for older workers and intergenerational teams because I think that's really where the magic happens. And so our initiative changing the narrative started doing more and more of a focus in that direction, trying to persuade employers, trying to encourage older job seekers not to give up hope. And the third leg of it was starting to work on public policy solutions. So for example, banning employers from asking for high school graduation dates on a job application, like after your first job at McDonald's, really, why should you be listing a high school graduation date? So that's kind of how I got into it. We need massive change in our thinking about how we look at people of all ages in the workforce.

Andrew: Yeah, and it's so important because obviously we always have new generations entering the workforce, but things are changing to the point where it's not like our grandparents who at 65, they just sort of hang up whatever they're doing and call it a day, people aren't actually going to retire. A lot of people are going to keep going because they feel well enough to do so. Or unfortunately, in some cases they have to, whether they want to or not.

And the way I like to approach these conversations or any conversation about an ism is that it has to be a systemic approach. It can't be on the affected population to address the issue even though they're part of it, but we also have to give people the tools to navigate the current environment because we can't just say, "Oh, well companies need to change their behavior because it's going to take time." So starting at the company level, if there are companies where they obviously maybe have a workforce that skews younger or they maybe not consciously have a bias against older workers, what was your argument and what is your argument to say, "No, you need to take a look at older workers because they bring something to your business?"

Janine: So Andrew, that's so important, and I like the fact that you said that they may not have a conscious bias. I mean, one of the things that we know is ageism surrounds us so much in our popular culture that most of us actually do have an unconscious bias against older people, including ourselves as we get older. The arguments that I make to employers, and I call it the ABCDs, the first is looking at what are the real attributes of older workers? So we know actually as we get older, we have stronger communication skills, I like to say sometimes it's because we've made so many mistakes in communicating that hopefully we've learned from. A lot of the soft skills that employers think are really important we develop more as we get older, certainly industry knowledge, community knowledge.

And there's something that Chip Conley said, and I know you had him on your podcast. He talks about this idea of pattern recognition, a part of our brain that actually gets stronger, is we can see those patterns emerging and it can be something like when you pick up the phone, you know that a customer is calling to complain and not to congratulate you even before the customer says anything. So that's an example of pattern recognition. That's the A.

The B is the benefit of intergenerational teams, and I think that's where the real magic occurs. The research shows that intergenerational teams provide the benefit of other types of diversity as well. And I think what was stunning to me is a few weeks ago there was a study that came out that said Employers aren't hiring older people, but they're also not hiring Gen Z. Well, that leaves this lovely group in the middle, but how is Gen Z going to enter the workforce if we're saying we're not going to hire them because they don't know enough, but we're pushing out the people who might be willing to mentor. So it doesn't make sense. So one of the things that I found is when I talk about the benefits of intergenerational teams, better team problem solving, more creativity, more profitability, that companies start to listen to that.

The C is really that customer and client insight, so really understanding that the market potential of people aged 50 and over. Data from ARP shows that the US economy and the buying power of people aged 50 and over would be the third-largest economy in the world after the US overall in China. But if we miss out because we have no older people or people in that demographic on our product development teams, on our marketing teams, we're missing out on that insight about what might appeal them.

And then finally, the D is the demographic reality. We know people are living longer and healthier lives. They want to work longer, as you've indicated, Andrew, but also we have declining birth rates. So if you want to grow as a company, if you want to be able to makeshift, you need to stop thinking we're only going to hire younger, you need to look at how do I develop an all-ages strategy and an all-ages workforce.

Andrew: And I really like those ABCDs because this is something that I often tell people is there's altruism, which we all hope that people are nice to other people because it's nice, but some companies do not work that way. So all of those things that you touched on help their bottom line. Beyond sort of saying to companies, "Here is what you need to do," there's obviously regulations. And I'm always sort of disheartened a little bit when we have to bring up regulations because there are obviously safeguards like you mentioned, not to ask about graduation dates and not using a person's birth year against them or things like that. But those tend to be weak protections because the bar to actually hold employers accountable is quite high, right?

Janine: No, you're exactly right. And I mean the other thing is that age discrimination laws in the US aren't as strong as laws against other forms of discrimination. So to me, just saying what this is, this is a smart business move to have a strategy for age diversity and then looking for a company, looking at the practices and policies that you have in place, and that's what I talk about a lot to employers, what are the things that you can do to lessen those barriers at the recruitment stage, at the application stage, at the interview stage, while also...

And people sometimes think, this is me being contradictory. I'm an anti-ageism activist, why do I tell older job seekers shave some years off your resume and don't put your graduation dates on? I do it for exactly the reason you said, we're not there yet. We can champion the systemic things that we need. And at the same time recognize that there are a lot of people out there who have tremendous strengths, talents, and experience who aren't getting hired and so if we can let them know some strategies as well, I think it's win-win for the older job seeker and for the employer.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess getting down to the actual activities of companies, when it comes to recruitment or some of those policies to get older workers in the door, what do you suggest? Because I know one of the things that I spend a lot of time around recruiters and talent professionals and executives in that space, and whenever the idea of diversity, regardless of the actual area, whether it's race or anything, they'll go, "Well, let's go to colleges. Let's go to historically Black universities," and things like that. And you're automatically sort of saying, "Okay, well we're skewing younger."

Janine:

Yeah, so that would be lesson number one. When you're recruiting, when you're putting your job announcements out, don't use terms digital natives, because by definition, older people, I consider myself a digital learner or a digital immigrant and that kind of thing, but I can't be a digital native. Don't use things like recent college grads. Don't limit your recruitment to college fairs and that kind of thing because then you're deliberately... Those are the more obvious, but sometimes people will simply say things in their ads like, "Fresh talent, energetic," and that kind of thing. And they're all kind of code words. So I think employers need to get that out of the way.

The other thing is just being conscious of what your overall presence is. It's one thing to say, "We are open to people of all ages," but if I go to your website and I only see images in our team section of people who are in their 20s, I'm saying, "I don't think there's a place for me here." So in the same way visually that we want to pay attention to other forms of diversity, we want to do that here too. And don't ask for graduation dates for college transcripts. Again, do you really need a college transcript? So there are things that employers can do, I think at that application stage to avoid screening people out. And of course training hiring managers on age inclusive hiring would go a long way.

Andrew:I know there's a lot of misinformation around this because so many times people will say, "Oh, I was asked my age in an interview." And people will be like, "That's illegal, report them." And I'll say, "Actually, it's not illegal. What's illegal is using that information against you, but good luck proving that." And so strengthening those regulations, but also encouraging the employers to think beyond, yes, you could recruit at colleges, but also what about going to a senior center? Or what about posting in places where maybe it's not just recent college grads or people who are in their 20s or 30s?

Janine: Andrew, I love that and I love that there's an emerging trend that I'm seeing, and there are a handful of recruiters that are right now specifically targeting the older market. So for example, my friend Kim Anderson, who runs GreySource, really focused on the age 50 plus as a recruiter, there are a number of other recruiters that are just starting to do that, that have kind of reached out to me. So I think that's a helpful sign. There are things like the AARP Pledge program, Tim Driver of the Age-Friendly Institute does a Certified Age-Friendly Employer. So there's sort of a growing movement of people who are recognizing that and people are starting to get into that market, if you will. And I think that's a really promising sign.

Andrew: We'll be right back with Janine Vanderburg. 

Andrew: And we're back with Janine Vanderburg founder of Changing the Narrative.

This is somewhat related, but also somewhat unrelated is return ship programs which tend to skew for older workers because they will have taken three or four years out. And what is always sort of interesting is when I talk to employers who do that, or the organizations that help employers with that, I think it's Carol Fishman Cohen leads the big one in the Northeast and nationally, but they're so happy they've done that because they find out that those workers end up being more reliable than younger workers, they're taking less absences. And then when you consider that younger workers, they're starting families, they have children that they need to go pick up and stuff, but you have these workers who they've done that already. So it's really, you see the benefits of that intergenerational workforce where maybe a third of your workforce during the week have to take an hour here, hour there, but then you have other people who they'll be there all day, so there's that continuity.

And then we need to give people the benefit of tools to navigate the current ecosystem. And for job seekers, what does that look like? There are those job ads, we could start there where they'll say digital native or someone to bring energy and fresh ideas, and that can obviously turn people off, but I think people might just say, "I don't even want to try there." So what is your advice even in those situations at the beginning?

Janine: Yeah, I call it my kind of treat yourself like a VIP strategy. And what it means is first really understanding what value is that you yourself and value of older workers generally, so even when you see job ads looking at what are they really getting at, if someone is saying digital native because it's really important to have tech skills, there may be the unconscious bias by the employer, the person who put it out that older people don't have tech skills, and we know that's not correct, we kind of invented tech. But showing that you have the skills, a huge opportunity that I see right now, and I know a lot of people are worried about it, about AI, but to me, AI is this potential leveler because we're all learning at the same time. And so doing the coursework and making sure that you are up-to-date on all of this and then showing it, are you really digging deeper into that job announcement? What are they really looking for? And really kind of pointing out how you meet them.

A friend of mine who's helped place a lot of people aged 50 and over who is with one of the federally funded workforce development centers, literally has all older applicants take their resumes, throw it in a word cloud, take the job announcements, throw them in a word cloud and keep tweaking the resume until the concentration of words that are in the resume matches the words that are in the word cloud. And then doing another take with AI and saying, "You can do this even with ChatGPT, "How do we optimize this to match this?" So those are things that we can do to overcome.

I think the other thing that we can do is really look at and get over our own internalized ageism. So one of the things that I've seen, especially with older job seekers who have tried and tried, and it takes longer to get back in the workforce, if you've been pushed out, they start internalizing this message, "Maybe I am too old to do this. Maybe I can't learn this new thing," and that kind of thing. So we need to get over it and just think about the time, when did I learn something new? Kind of come up with this sheet of, here are all the times I learned something new. Here's a new tech skill I learned yesterday, playing those in our head instead of the narrative that society would tell us that we're too old.

And I think the other thing that we've got to do as we're looking for work when we're older is really prepare ourselves for the ageist questions that are very likely to come out in interviews. And again, not necessarily always with mal intent, but because hiring managers are no different than anyone else, they've absorbed the ageist messages around us. So preparing for questions like, "Well, are you going to retire soon?" Or, "Do you have enough energy?" But being prepared so that you're not so taken aback when you get a question like that and then you get in a whole reactive loop.

Andrew: Yeah. And also, I know you mentioned a little bit about cutting some of the experience off. What would your recommendation be for that? If your experience maybe goes 30, 40 years, I always say just focus on the last 10 or 15 because even from a skills point of view, that's usually what's going to matter, but what other advice would you have?

Janine:So absolutely focusing on the skills and the most recent skills, especially any additional coursework, certification, things you've learned, showing that you're up-to-date on all the latest tech and not putting stuff in like, "I know Microsoft Office." Great, so glad you do that, what else? And that kind of thing. I think the other thing that is really, really important in resumes is especially if someone has been in a prior position for a really long time, they probably have not gotten used to thinking about what are the results I got? So literally mapping what is everything they're looking for and what are examples of results that I've gotten for the organization in similar situations or that could be transferable. So thinking, "Here's what I did," not just listing, here were my duties and responsibilities, but making sure that you're focused on the results you got that are comparable to the kind of results that might be requested or required in this new position.

Andrew: I think that's really good advice. And then also in the interview process, I think a lot of times, and you mentioned the mentality that people can almost defeat themselves because they assume they're going to run into ageism or things like that. What is your advice for pushing through that?

Janine: So my advice, especially in interviews, savvy hiring managers and savvy interviewers may know well enough that they probably shouldn't be asking you, "Are you willing to learn new things," because that's the stereotype about older people. So a really smart thing to do in preparation is think of everything that you've learned in the last year, whether, painfully or not, or joyfully, whichever way, but think of those things. So you are coming in and you're not saying in the interview, "Here's a list of 10 things I've learned in the new year," but you're thinking about when you can strategically insert those things, not only can you give examples of new things you've learned that's helped your prior organization or in another setting, but you can also express curiosity during the interview, asking questions of the people who are interviewing. So you are demonstrating in a real way that you're open to new things, you're curious.

Another stereotype is that older people won't want to respond to a younger manager. So giving examples of intergenerational teams that you've been on, things that you've learned from someone older or younger than you. And I think what's really important is in a non-arrogant way, I think as we get older we may think, "I can't believe I'm being asked this question. I know this, I invented this," and that kind of thing. And just being just really humble about it all and not arrogant.

Andrew: Yeah. And actually I'm really glad you brought that up because I often tell people that, and it can seem almost ageist coming from me because I'm in my 30s, but what I'll always tell people is, what I do notice is even as I get older, I get a little cocky when I talk to people about things that I've done. And that is one of the worst things you could do in an interview is to say, "I can't believe I even have to interview for..." It's like the star actor saying, "I don't audition." If you're really looking from an employer point of view, if they really don't care about your age, you're up against people who are in their 20s and their 30s and their 40s. And even if you've done this for 15, 30 years, you have to approach it of, I have this experience, I have these skills and I'm going to put it to work for you. Because employers, they care what you're going to do over the next five years for them.

Janine: I understand why it happens because I'm arrogant about some of the things I've accomplished in my life, but it's like, we can tone it down. And the reality is that, I think especially as the world is changing daily, there are a lot of things that none of us know, no matter how old we are and so this openness to learning I think is so important. And it's something I actually see among a lot of older job seekers and where they get hung up is after a certain number of defeats or feeling they've been ghosted, then it kind of goes into anger and that then expresses itself in some sort of arrogance. And so you go in this downward spiral and we just need to stop it and remind ourselves how great we are, even if we just have to tell ourselves that in the mirror.

Andrew: And I think one of the things that is overarching in this discussion, and I would love your take on this, is to be targeted with your job search. Because I think one thing that strikes me a lot is when I talk to people who have been at their employer for many years, they've become middle managers or senior managers, and a lot of times we'll talk about searching or career advancement, and they will literally say, "I don't need help with that. I've navigated my career successfully. I'm here, thank you very much."

And then I especially saw this during the pandemic when there were the mass layoffs, I had people in fairly large C-suite roles who came to me and said, "I don't know how to job search." Because even though they've so successfully navigated their career, they had never been pushed out of a job or they had never been unemployed for a couple decades or five or 10 years, and they start panicking, applying. And I'll say, "Take a minute and be strategic with your job search, because I said, you can then walk in confidently and say, 'I can do this,' instead of going in for anything and being befuddled by things that you really don't have experience with." Would you say that is your suggestion too, to make sure you're doing a quality strategic job search?

Janine: Absolutely. And I would even take it a step further in this way. Oftentimes when you've been in the workforce for a long time, some things have come so naturally to you, you've kind of forgotten maybe what your core strengths are and what those attributes are that can really make a difference. So part of it is if people have the resources available, I recommend consult with a career coach. If you don't have a resource available, doing something like going to a local American job center and asking them, "Do you have programs for people aged 50 plus?" And really going back and focusing on, what are the things that I'm really, really good at?

Because that does two things. One, it helps you apply more strategically as you're suggesting Andrew, but it also gives you more confidence. If you know, "What I am really, really good at is X, Y, and Z," it becomes a filter of, "Am I going to have the opportunity to do that in this position that I'm looking at?" And then also when you go in and talk to people about it, you've got a great ability to be able to articulate how it's played out in different situations without having to prep or think too much about it, because our strengths come naturally to us. I just really encourage people think about what are those things that you're just really naturally good at?

Andrew: And obviously it's situation specific, but if you are looking for work and you're trying to get back in the workforce or you were laid off, whatever the situation is, there is a chance, especially later in life, I think, because you've done so many things to say, "You know what, I don't want to do that again." And there was this thing that AARP wrote recently, and I loved it so much where it's like on a bucket list, "These are the things I want to do before I leave this planet." And the anti-bucket list is, "These are the things I never want to do ever again." [inaudible 00:26:31]-

Janine: So Andrew, I love you brought that up. So I actually wrote an article on LinkedIn-

Andrew: Amazing.

Janine: ... about an anti-bucket list, and that's actually one of the things that I encourage people to do. For some people who get laid off, there's not the luxury of that, there's an immediate need, but for people who have the luxury, it's take that time, figure out what your strengths are, write down your anti-bucket list, these are the things I never want to do again. And use those as filters when you're looking at those job announcements and you're doing your networking, because I think it's also helpful and really important. A benefit actually of getting older is we've developed more and more connections over time.

Another thing that I suggest that people do is literally create a map of all of your connections. I've got a little tool that I give to people, and it's really simple, it's a mind map. Here are the people I've known from this position, here are the people I know from community. If you're in faith, here are people I know from church, whatever it is, here are groups of people I know and networks. And then mapping them out and thinking through, "All right, how can they help me network into whatever I'm interested in?" and sharing with those people, not only what you want and what your strengths are, but also here are the things I never want to do again.

Andrew: Yeah, and I could speak to you for hours about this because I'm having such a great time. But for people who are listening, and especially if they're in the middle of a job search, they feel defeated, what would your message be? What would you want to leave them with?

Janine: So there's so many things, but don't give up. There are things out there when. You get in a really discouraged space, go to, for example, AARP and look at their AARP Pledge Program. It can just give you hope to see here are companies who actually want to hire older workers. The same thing with the Certified Age Friendly program at the Age-Friendly Institute, look at the companies that actually say, "We value having talent of all ages, an all ages strategy." So I think doing that. Have your own friends accountability group, so find a couple of people. Again with American Workforce Centers, and one of the things I've discovered is a lot of older workers aren't actually aware of the fact that there are workforce development centers in almost every community where you can access free services. Not all of them have programs for age-50 and over, but it's worth asking whether they do. And very often they have networking groups where in a way you can hold each other accountable, but you can also cheer each other on. Make sure you've got somebody cheering you on in all of this.

And literally you've got your anti-bucket list, but also create your list of, these are the things that I'm absolutely amazing at. And don't forget to look at that every day because otherwise you can get really defeated. The other, and this just goes to the systemic, I do a lot on the public policy front, and one of the challenges that I've faced is very often I want someone to go testify to the legislature, to some elected officials or whatever about why we need more workforce development money geared towards older workers, why we need stronger age discrimination laws. And people in the job hunt, and I understand why they don't do it, are like, "Oh no, I can't testify." And I'm like, "No, if we share our experiences, then we can create the systems that would be more friendly to workers of all ages." So it may be a way for people to feel like they are doing something even in the midst of it all.

Andrew: Yeah, especially that last point, to underscore that, what I always tell job seekers, I'll always say, "Well, did you tell your friends or family that you're looking for work?" And there's still a lot of shame attached to being a job seeker because you feel unwanted, things like that. And I'll always say, "How can anyone help you if they don't know you need it?" And people will maybe then tell their friends, and it's amazing how quickly the networking side really kicks in. And so it's the same thing as asking for help, whether it's at the legislature or anything like that, especially as an older adult because they listen to older adults. So, yeah.

Janine: They do.

Andrew: But thank you so much, Janine. I so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

Janine: Thank you, Andrew. And thank you for covering this topic. It's so important and so few people talk about it. And I feel like the more we talk about it, the more both employers and older job seekers will understand the value that having an all-ages workforce can bring, and that's good for everybody.

Andrew:That was Janine Vanderburg, founder of Changing the Narrative. If you're leaving today's conversation with a new learning to apply to your job search or career, I'd like to invite you to write about it in a review on Apple Podcast. Our team really enjoys reading what you learn from our show, plus it helps other people discover our community. 

Speaking of community, remember that we're always here backing you up and cheering you on. Connect with me, Andrew Seaman and the Get Hired community on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. In fact, subscribe to my weekly newsletter that's called, you guessed it, Get Hired to get even more information delivered to you every week. You can find those links in the show notes. And of course, don't forget to clip the follow or subscribe button to get our podcast delivered to you every Wednesday because we'll be continuing these conversations on the next episode right here, wherever you like to listen. 

Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News. This episode was produced by Alexis Ramdaou, Grace Rubin is our associate producer, Assaf Gidron engineered our show, Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show, Dave Pond is head of news production, Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer, Courtney Coupe is the head of original programming for LinkedIn, Dan Roth is the editor-in-chief of LinkedIn, and I'm Andrew Seaman. 

Until next time, stay well, and best of luck.