Commons:Categories for discussion/2017/07/Category:Things named after Museu Nacional de Arte Antiga

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Category:Things named after Museu Nacional de Arte Antiga

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This category creates a cycle, which is contrary to Commons:Categories#Principles: "There should be no cycles (i.e. a category should not contain itself, directly or indirectly)." Category:Rua das Janelas Verdes contains Category:Museu Nacional de Arte Antiga‎, which contains Category:Things named after Museu Nacional de Arte Antiga, which contains Category:Rua das Janelas Verdes. This category is also against the "simplicity" principle of Commons:Categories#Principles. Moreover, this is a useless and ill-formed category. "Rua das Janelas Verdes" is not named after the museum, but after the palace wich contains the museum, hence the different names. So there is no category about "things named after Museu Nacional de Arte Antiga". BrightRaven (talk) 07:31, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OMG, BrightRaven, could it be that this cycle proscription you love so much doesn’t match reality? Categorizing a street for its name is trivial (cp. this, among so many), as well as categorizing a building within the street it is located at… Since many streets are named after an emblematic building they harbour, these cycles are bound to happen — and that’s perfectly natural and aceptable: Categorization links are hierarchical, but they are not necessarily synonymous. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 15:54, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes it is. (Before I created this cat, I confer by phone with a brother of mine who is an historian specialized in the MNAA building, and he confirmed what’s written in the category description — did you read it, Auntof6? What’s your source to state the opposite?) Just a hint: "Museu Nacional de Arte Antiga" = "Palácio das Janelas Verdes"… -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 15:54, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete I'd agree that the sole subcategory is named after Palácio das Janelas Verdes, but saying it's name after the museum is confusing and unnecessary. Even if we were to accept it was named after the museum, it's still a meta-category for a single category, unlikely to be expanded. - Themightyquill (talk) 09:11, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Só uma, claro. Nem mais é sequer pensável! Pois quando queremos saber quantas entidades categorizáveis há em Lisboa que tenham sido nomeadas em referência às Janelas Verdes (palácio, rua, bairro…) chamamos, sem delongas e em exclusivo, Themightyquill, esse eminente olisipógrafo. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 21:55, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please be civil, Tuvalkin. If you can populate a category for things named after Palácio das Janelas Verdes, then do so, but otherwise, you have no argument. - Themightyquill (talk) 09:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Two things:
  1. I was not being uncivil, just a bit sarcastic — that’s what you get when confronted with attempted distruction of valuable work.
  2. What’s on the table, then?: Is it the problem with categorization loops, or is it the problem with categories containing one single category? (Pro-tip: Neither is a cause for deletion in Commons.)
-- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 22:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
1. Hostile sarcasm is indeed uncivil and unappreciated. #2. Both reasons, combined with the fact that the single current sub-category is not named after the museum. You are offering no good reason to keep, which means consensus is being achieved in favour of deletion. - Themightyquill (talk) 09:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: Uncivil and unappreciated is busybodies gnawing away proper curation due to poorly understood poorly thought-out rules which Commons has outgrown of — so excuse my “just wrath”. I will try to explain, once again:
  • You state that «the single current sub-category is not named after the museum». Well, you’re either not understanding what was said several times, or you’re deliberately gaslighting me. Yes, the so-called “street of the green windows” was so named refering to the “palace of the green windows”, which is nowadays the museum in question. (Yes the historical minutiae are unclear, but the same can be said about the connection between these two categories, and countless outher such pairs.)
  • BrightRaven understood well the underlying concept — that the street has a semantic nexus to the museum in both senses: The street is named after the museum (parent cat) and the museum is located on the street (child cat). But that, although logical and analogous to every other street-named-after and building-on-street categorization, run against the no-loop rule. BrightRaven undid my categorization twice (almost reaching edit-warring level — yet another arcane rule at work here), so I decided to achieve the same curation goal (which is: properly categorize this street under its name and with the buildings on/in it) by circumventing the cat loop rule, and therefore I created an intermediate category that undoes it (see how categories which are children or grand-children of themselves are not immediate deletion candidates) and even adds some semantics to the relationship between the two concepts.
  • But it’s Catch 22 and now the intermediate category seems to go against yet another a rule, one that says that cats cannot have single-kitten litters. (Where’s that rule stated so I can read it, anyway?)
-- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 22:17, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, continuing to insult me and others as a "busybodies" is uncivil. I accept that this discussion is unappreciated by you, but that's not my problem or anyone else's. Unappreciated discussion is very different than uncivil discussion, unless you feel your edits are being intentionally targetted as a personal attack. I'm not sure why you don't see that you can be angry without being uncivil. Second, I think I was quite clear when I said "If you can populate a category for things named after Palácio das Janelas Verdes, then do so." The fact that various users have differing reasons to support deletion doesn't undermine the consensus to delete. - Themightyquill (talk) 08:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted for various reasons cited above. No strong reason for keeping, or effort to fill the category. - Themightyquill (talk) 09:50, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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