Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Tisourcier

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files uploaded by Tisourcier (talk · contribs)

Lightly modified tracing of a portrait photo by André Crudo (https://www.alamy.com/french-actor-pierre-tornade-on-the-set-of-the-tv-series-nestor-burma-april-25-1991-image475635627.html), flipped left-to-right. Per COM:BASEDONPHOTO, a drawing based on a single specific photograph requires the permission of the photographer. (This is a specific Commons policy, which differs from fr.wikipedia.org's policy on drawings of photographs.)

Belbury (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi !

My drawing is not at all inspired by this photo. You can verify the mouth, teeth, the eyes, the attitude, face dimension and the hair are distinctly differents.

My work is done mostly by memory. So, your request is unfounded. Tisourcier (talk) 15:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With this principle, it would be necessary to remove plenty of portraits, like this, for instance :

- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wandbild_Portrait_George_Floyd_von_Eme_Street_Art_im_Mauerpark_(Berlin).jpg

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_Floyd.png

As everyone can see, this portrait is directly based on the photo. Tisourcier (talk) 16:00, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Once the Alamy photo is flipped left-to-right a lot of it lines up - the uneven shoulders and asymmetrical shirt collar appear to be from where you've used some lines from Tornade's jacket and drawn just the shirt instead.

I appreciate that you've drawn the eyes, mouth and hair freehand, but your drawing appears clearly based on this one particular photograph of Tornade.

Yes, there probably are other images on Commons which go against this copyright rule and should be amended or deleted, although there are some unusual exceptions for freedom of panorama in some countries. Belbury (talk) 16:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In this case :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_Floyd.png

The file is copyrighted and the use of this image is not permitted in any case but is still granted by Commons.

My drawing is not inspired by the photo by Crudo at all. This actor has a very specific face and you could consider that any drawing of him is a copyvio because you'll find his face similarities on any other photo.

Its a subjective point of view or opinion and not a rational démonstration.

So let others experienced contributors give their analysis of it. Tisourcier (talk) 16:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but I believe that you must have used this specific photograph for a significant amount of reference. As well as the unusual shape of collar and shoulders corresponding to the outline of the jacket he is wearing in Crudo's photograph, the general dimensions of the face also line up. I opened both images in an editor to check whether they corresponded when superimposed at the same scale, and the curve of Tornade's mouth, the position of his nose, his chin, his bags under the eye, etc, line up. There are original details and alterations here, but also a lot of Crudo's original photograph. --Belbury (talk) 16:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you draw the Eiffel tower, you will reproduce several parts of it. Commons or WP dont determinate the amount of inspiration of a drawing : 40%, 60%, 80% ? This consideration is subjective. My artwork is original, by hand and made without copying this particular photo. Tisourcier (talk) 17:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For your own reference and that of other contributors, this is the drawing superimposed over Crudo's photograph: https://i.imgur.com/NDDb8cB.png Belbury (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the outline this is similar, but for the others and main parts of the face, this is very different.

You can se here this others pictures I just found via Google that other parts are similars with numbers of other existing photos.

The main question is : wich percentage of a model is allowed in Commons and wich is not : 20%, 40%, 60% ?

Other "mixes" with differents photos of the same people :

https://zupimages.net/up/23/40/6xnn.jpg

https://zupimages.net/up/23/40/8evo.jpg

So, it's really a matter of subjective point of view. Tisourcier (talk) 12:09, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How much of Crudo's photograph would you say that you used here? And did you refer to any other specific photographs when drawing Tornade's eyes and mouth? Belbury (talk) 12:48, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was designed by hand (I used a grid for proportions). It could be 20 or 30% for the outline. The other details are by memory or inspiration but not photo. Tisourcier (talk) 15:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So we've gone from My drawing is not inspired by the photo by Crudo at all, to saying that 20% to 30% of your drawing is based on copying this specific photo.

The eyes you've drawn are a match for the picture at https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/pierre_tornade (overlay example at https://i.imgur.com/gVRQx3d.png). Did you also use that image as a close reference? Belbury (talk) 07:50, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per Tisourcier. I was, at first, more into the arguments of Belbury but the demonstration of Tisourcier convinced me. The drawing was made by memory, with some photos and films from the same era in mind. --Groupir ! (talk) 05:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. In summary, based on the same characteristics and arguments as for the case of the portrait of George Floyd in Commons, given as model for this aproval. Tisourcier (talk) 14:31, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The George Floyd mural is specifically a COM:FOP Germany issue, which doesn't apply to the drawing here. This is discussed at Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:George Floyd mural Mauerpark Berlin. Belbury (talk) 16:19, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: per discussion. Ruthven (msg) 11:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files uploaded by Tisourcier (talk · contribs)

These photos were taken in the 1950s in France in photo studios (mostly Harcourt), but there is not evidence that they were created / published on the year the description claims it was. Any photo published in 1954 or later is currently not in the French public domain (there are several in this DR), and any photo published in the 1950s that was not simultaneously published in the US is still copyrighted in the US. That the uploader invents the dates seems to be evident. For example, Commons:Deletion requests/File:PierreRepp-1953.png is the cover of an EP published in 1955 and it was stated in the source link. The source link of Commons:Deletion requests/File:MarinaVlady-1952-Harcourt.png clearly states the photo was taken in 1955. Some of the files in this DR give also good evidence made up dates. File:CatherineLangeais-1954.png the back states the postcard was issued for an event on September 5, 1968. File:MaryMarquet-1953-Harcourt.png mentions the year 1965 on the back. File:Denys-deLaPatelliere-1951-Harcourt.png is from a eBay item that sells photos from 1955 until 1971. File:Caccia-Harcourt-1950-Harcourt.jpg is from an eBay item that says it was taken in the 1960s. File:JeanRichard-1953-Harcourt.png actually states it was taken 1949 (not included on this DR as it states when it was published).

All in all, there is no evidence that the date of publication are correct, the claimed ones make them either copyrighted in France or close to the limit, and there is no evidence they are in the public domain in the US even assuming the dates are correct. Following, COM:EVID and COM:PCP we cannot keep them.

Günther Frager (talk) 20:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Mainly of these photograph have been published and taken before 1954. Some of them can be re-printed or re-published later but the year to be considered is when they have been published for the fist time in France. Günther Frager is not giving a proof for almost all these picture that they have not been taken or published before 1954. I had studied each biography data for any of these artists or people before to upload in Commons, according to each period of their carreer.

Tisourcier (talk) 07:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to remind you that it is your duty as uploader to provide the evidence that the files are in the public domain, see COM:EVID. Reading a bibliography you might infer that a photo was taken in the 1950s, but you cannot known the exact date it was taken, and I showed plenty of cases you clearly made up the dates. You also uploaded plenty of photos that even assuming the dates were correct were or are still copyrighted in France. Moreover, you are still ignoring the fact that images have to be in the public domain in the US, see COM:L. Are you also inferring from reading bibliographies that they were simultaneously published in the US without a copyright notice? Günther Frager (talk) 21:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The French state bought the photo archives of Studio Harcourt in 1991 and released them under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported license. We currently have 691 hosted at Commons. User:Studio Harcourt, the heirs to the images, also released them under the same license and this has been confirmed by VRT. Instead of nominating a dozen or more images, you should have read the copyright info in the category, or asked at Village pump/Copyright. --RAN (talk) 12:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Yes, the the French government bought the collection, but if you look at Réunion des Musées Nationaux website, e.g. https://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/08-539429-2C6NU0T5RXO2.html corresponds to File:JeanLefebvre-1953-Harcourt.png, there is no mention to a CC-BY license, and the copyright notice is "(C) Ministère de la Culture - Médiathèque du patrimoine et de la photographie, Dist. GrandPalaisRmn / Studio Harcourt". As you are the one that edited the page, what is the reliable source that states the French government released the collection under a CC-BY 3.0 license? The link on the page doesn't talk about licensing at all. The photographs that the Studio Harcourt released under CC-BY where created after 1991 and are under the category Uploads by User:Studio Harcourt. Günther Frager (talk) 20:59, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For what it is worth, the RMN does massive copyfraud. It claims a copyright on anything it hosts, even when there is absolutely no possibility that it owns the copyright. So I would not rely on it to prove anything. Yann (talk) 09:00, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote Studio Harcourt and User:StudioHarcourt to see if they can confirm the release and what the coverage is for the license. I also asked to see the VRT with the license info. --RAN (talk) 08:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the photos by Studio Harcourt, which are in the public domain as stated in VRT ticket #2020112910005534 from Studio Harcourt:

File:PierreTrabaud-1950-Harcourt.png

File:MartineCarol-1953-Harcourt.png

File:HenriCremieux-1950-Harcourt.png

File:PierreDudan-1953-Harcourt.png

File:MaryMarquet-1953-Harcourt.png

File:ClaireMaurier-1954-Harcourt.png

File:Andrex-1950-Harcourt.png

File:GeorgesUlmer-1953-Harcourt.png

File:NoelNoel-1950-Harcourt.png

File:JacquelineJoubert-1954-Harcourt.png

File:Caurat-1954-Harcourt.png

File:JacquelineHuet-1954-Harcourt.png

File:JPRambal-1953-Harcourt.png

File:JBalutin-1953-Harcourt.png

File:Denys-deLaPatelliere-1951-Harcourt.png

File:JacquesCharrier-1954-Harcourt.png

File:ReneSarvil-1950-Harcourt.png

File:JacquesFabbri-1953-Harcourt.png

File:JacquesMorel-1950-Harcourt.jpg

File:JacquesJouanneau-1953-Harcourt.jpg

File:ChristianeMinazzoli-1953-Harcourt.jpg

File:DeFunes-1953-Harcourt.jpg

File:RogerPierre-1953-Harcourt.png

File:LucienJeunesse-1952-Harcourt.png

File:AnnieCordy-1953-Harcourt.png

File:JudithMagre-1953-Harcourt.png

File:CecileAubry-1952-Harcourt.png

File:GeorgesGeret-1950-Harcourt.png

File:RobertDalban-1952-Harcourt.png

File:GeorgesDelerue-1952-Harcourt.png

File:PierreMondy-1953-Harcourt.png

File:JeanLefebvre-1953-Harcourt.png

File:EdouardDelmont-1950-Harcourt.png

File:MichelSerrault-1953-Harcourt.png

File:DarioMoreno-Harcourt-1952.jpg

File:MichelineDax-1950-Harcourt.jpg

File:Maillan-Harcourt-1952.png

File:Perier-Harcourt-1952.jpg

File:C-Duvaleix-Harcourt-1952.jpg

File:Genes-1951-Harcourt.jpg

The other photos are from various different authors and origins and they will have to be evaluated individually to determine if each is really or plausibly anonymous and their dates:

File:PIerre-Stephen-1950-Studio.png

File:JeanPierreMarielle-1953.png

File:MichelRoux-1950-StudioLevin.png

File:MarcoPerrin-1950-StudioVallois.png

File:SansCeremonie-theatre-1952.png

File:JeanDaurand-1953.png

File:HaroldKay-1953.png

File:HarryMax-1953.png

File:Fransined-1953.png

File:HenriVilbert-1953.png

File:CatherineLangeais-1954.png

File:Lanzac-1953-Collectif.png

File:FernandSardou-1952.png

-- Asclepias (talk) 08:08, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

Thank's a lot for the selective ranking and acknowledgements (Yann, Richard Arthur Norton, Asclepias). Concerning the "non Harcourt studio" pictures, they mainly are from "studios", "agencies" or companies employing different anonymous photographers, because this is "collective work", as such as Harcourt Studio. In this case in France, PD applies for any collective work's photography wich has been taken 70 years before (or earlier of course). So, the criteria for PD France still applies. Finally, for these photographs, I allways refer to books or check archives to select myself any picture and determine if they are 70 yo, or more. Tisourcier (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: no valid reason for deletion: Harcourt photographs taken between 1934 and 1991 are not under copyright per ticket:2020112910005534. The other photos deletion must be requested if there is evidence that the work in not anonymous and published after the French limit date. Ruthven (msg) 13:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Tisourcier

Files uploaded by Tisourcier (talk · contribs)

Files uploaded by Tisourcier (talk · contribs)

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