Talk:Cradle of civilization

Indus Valley

Removed "The cities were perhaps originally about a mile square in overall dimensions, and their outstanding magnitude suggests political centralization, either in two large states or in a single great empire with alternative capitals. Alternatively, it may be that Harappa succeeded Mohenjo-daro, which is known to have been devastated more than once by exceptional floods. Encyclopædia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9039205/Harappa Harappa (Pakistan) – Britannica Online Encyclopedia | Britannica.com accessdate 2010-01-09

Firstly, there is no citation for "political centralisation" of indus valley. In fact, majority view is that because of absence of evidence of kings, the society was more decentralised. The second statement I removed regarding "Harappa succeeded Mohenjo-daro" doesn't make any sense in the context.

New cradle of civilization ?

This article may have some outdated content, as recent researches seem to mention Iran, and more precisely Halil Rud and Jiroft as another cradle of civilization. It also seems that the old Elamite language has been cracked very recently (by a French archaeologist). I'm only at the very beginning of the process, but a quick look on the web allows to find numerous "papers" about that, like [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. @HistoryofIran, LouisAragon, and Kansas Bear: gentlemen, thoughts ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. Unfortunately I know nothing about this subject. I wonder if something can be found in academic works as well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The discoveries in question seem to be quite recent, I suppose that academic works will follow in a more or less long time. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Version of English

For consistency, should this article talk about the "Indus Valley Civilization", with "z", even though its Wikipedia article is at "Indus Valley Civilisation" (for good reasons). It's not as if the article title for the IVC is a proper noun, like a film title: it's an academic concept. I suggest that we should use piped links where appropriate and change the text in this article to use the one consistent form of spelling throughout.

This article also uses both "labour" and "labor-intensive" (and "laborers" within a quote, so that doesn't count). It doesn't have a tag specifying which version of English it uses, but perhaps we should now agree that it seems to use US English and make it consistent. I can't find any other variation-specific spellings ... no "colo(u)r" or "hono(u)r"... but there may be some. PamD 07:54, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Have found center/centre and arch(a)eolog... to add. It still looks as if it is basically written in American English (not my own preferred usage - I'm being neutral here!) PamD 15:13, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Indus valley

@User:Aman.kumar.goel added references, if you've any question regarding it let me know.Sutyarashi (talk) 11:08, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

This POV pushing won't help you. You are pretending as if I allowed you to replace the term with sources but that is not the case.

Here are many sources which frequently use the term "India" as per established consensus on Talk:Cradle_of_civilization/Archive_2#indo_gangetic_plane_does_not_exclusively_lie_in_modern_india:

[6][7][8] [9][10]

You shouldn't be promoting your POV against consensus. See WP:DE. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 11:25, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Seems like a lazy and hasty attempt to search among Google books for your nationalist POV...none of these sources call ancient India/India as cradle of Civilization Sutyarashi (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

This type of misrepresentation of sources and POV pushing will only get you topic banned. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 19:05, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Since reliable sources in general call it "India" or "Ancient India", we cannot have a third choice here. Orientls (talk) 15:13, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@User:Orientls cite your sources please; none of these sources refer to Indus valley as ancient IndiaSutyarashi (talk)

• I reviewed the sources cited by User:Aman.kumar.goel in support of his opinion that Ancient India is the proper term to refer to the ancient civilization in the Indus Valley.

• I didn't find any clear statements that Ancient India is the preferred name of the Indus Valley civilization in any of the above sources. To the contrary, here are three unimpeachable sources supporting the name "Indus Valley Civilisation" or alternatives such as "Indus Civilisation," or "Indus Tradition," or "Harappan Civilization." None of the sources cited below list "Ancient India" as an option for the name of the civilization.
  • Indus Civilization. Fagan, Brian M. ed., The Oxford Companion to Archaeology, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996, pages 348-351.
  • Indus Civilisation or Indus Tradition. Renfrew, Colin, ed., The Cambridge World Prehistory, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2014, pages 407-432. [11]
  • Indus Civilization or Indus Valley Civilization or Harappan Civilization. Encyclopedia Britannica, [12]
• In other words, the preponderance of reliable sources support the name Indus Valley Civilisation or a similar term for the name of the ancient civilization in the Indus Valley. Smallchief (talk)

@Smallchief: No. The sources I cited were copied from earlier discussion which I mentioned and they support "India".

• "However, it seems there is no single cradle as civilisations developed independently in Egypt along the Nile, India along the Indus, China around the Yellow...
• "The Cradle of Civilization... it became possible to date the beginnings of culture in both India and China."
• "but we do know that the earliest civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt, India and China showed remarkable awareness"
• "India covers a vast area territorially and has been a cradle of civilization"
• "India was undoubtedly the cradle of civilization"

It was changed from "India" to "Ancient India" per consensus last time.

But if you have any issue then we can change back "Ancient India" to "India". Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 19:05, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Your last two cited sources are not reliable as they aren't written by established historians; first two make clear use of term Indus valley and third afterwards mentions explicitly that it means IVC by earliest civilization of India. This, Alongwith sources presented by @User:Smallchief make it clear that Indus valley is a much better term than India/Ancient India .Sutyarashi (talk) 19:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Further references calling Indus valley as cradle/earliest of the civilizations Sutyarashi (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

You are not in the position to be taken seriously anymore since you yourself falsely claimed that "none of these sources call ancient India/India as cradle of Civilization" despite all of them do.

Nobody is going to compete since it's clear that vast majority of sources call India a "cradle of civilization".

We can simply change "Ancient India" to just "India" if necessary but nothing else is needed to be done here. Capitals00 (talk) 07:59, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

References

@User:Capitals00 avoid making personal attacks, as it can get you blocked. I've already provided reasons for debunking the so-called sources; answer them first.Sutyarashi (talk) 08:02, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

No its not a personal attack. First you frequently misrepresent sources and then expect others to take your arguments seriously. Why? Your assumption of bad faith is clear from your continued edit warring. Capitals00 (talk) 08:25, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

It was you who actually started edit warring[13] Also, where did I misrepresented sources? Did you even read my reply?

Indus valley is not in India,so no reason to mislabel it.Sutyarashi (talk)

I reverted your POV pushing as common thing and you went to edit war which you are doing still now.

Now you are even denying that you misrepresented source? See WP:CIR. Capitals00 (talk) 12:20, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Again; you've indulged into accusations but not really answering what I asked. Have you got any problem with a list of sources provided by me and User:Smallchief? Also, read WP:COMMONNAME Sutyarashi (talk) 14:21, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

There is factual and technical problem which is that Indus Valley civilization didn't exist in most of Indo-Gangetic plain. A number of sites of those times that existed in broader Indo-Gangetic plain are also considered to be part of "Cradle of Civilization". Copper Hoard culture, Ochre Coloured Pottery culture, Sinauli and many other civilizations from the same period did not exist in Indus Valley civilization.

Another problem is that few sources don't change the fact that the widely accepted term is "India". Here are some more sources I found in just few minutes:-

• Xueyuan, T. (2019). The Way to a Great Country: A Macroscopic View on Chinese Population in the 21st Century. China Perspectives. Routledge. p. 11. ISBN 978-0-429-82576-7. The "Five Cradles of Civilization" – Mesopotamia by the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, ancient Egypt by the Nile River, ancient India by the Ganges River, China by the Yellow River, and ancient Greece
• Bryant, E.; Bryant, E.F.; Bryant, P.H.E.; Oxford University Press (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture: The Indo-Aryan Migration Debate. Oxford scholarship online. Oxford University Press. p. 18. ISBN 978-0-19-513777-4. India, the Cradle of Civilization
• Rauf, I.F.A. (2012). Moving the Mountain: Beyond Ground Zero to a New Vision of Islam in America. Free Press. p. 4. ISBN 978-1-4516-5602-2. known as the "cradle of civilization," including the ancient and highly developed nations of Egypt, Babylon and Mesopotamia (modern Iraq), Byzantium (modern Turkey), Persia (modern Iran), Abyssinia (modern Ethiopia), and India.
• Wang, L.; Zhao, J. Exchanges and Mutual Learning Among Asian Civilizations. Research Series on the Chinese Dream and China’s Development Path. Springer. p. 172. ISBN 978-981-19-7165-5. what are the four ancient civilizations in the world? 1. Mesopotamia (Iraq and Iran). 2. Ancient Egypt. 3. Ancient India. 4. China
• Collingwood, R.G.; Boucher, D.; James, W.; Smallwood, P. (2004). The Philosophy of Enchantment: Studies in Folktale, Cultural Criticism, and Anthropology. Clarendon Press. p. 270. ISBN 978-0-19-156906-7. Where and when it began we do not know; but the likeliest places for it are the oldest cradles of civilization, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and northern India; and of these three, the third is perhaps the strongest claimant.
• Hellyer, H.A.; Springborg, R. (2022). The Egyptian Revolution of 1919: Legacies and Consequences of the Fight for Independence. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 3. ISBN 978-0-7556-4362-2. Alongside Mesopotamia, India, and China, Egypt is recognized as one of the cradles of civilization
• Nardo, D. (2014). Slavery Through Ages. World History. Lucent Books, Gale Cengage Learning. p. 17. ISBN 978-1-4205-0860-4. Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, and China, among others. The four listed are often called the great "river civilizations" because they grew up on the banks of major rivers. They are also referred to as the "cradles of civilization"

Capitals00 (talk) 21:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

China, not Ancient China

China’s history is continued until present day, it was never interrupted. So it should be China instead of Ancient China. Cisdine (talk) 08:27, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

"Ancient" in this case refers to a period in Chinese history, so I'm unsure what the issue is with the phrase. TheGlaswegian (talk) 17:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)