Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Perfection (Latter Day Saints)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. In many ways, this is a model AFD, with the participants giving a thoughtful consideration of the merits of the topic and the article. In answer to 208.81.184.4, IPs get to participate and "vote" (except that we are not really supposed to be voting in AFDs at all), and thoughtful comments such as what you provided are always considered.

After considering the opinions here, the situation is that the subject may be notable, but that the article currently relies far too much on quotations from religious text, and with a lack of sources based on independent commentary. In general, we do not delete articles on notable subjects just because the article is in poor condition, as these types of problems may be fixed through routine editing. However, the issue of lack of independent sourcing that Descartes1979 brought up, and the concerns over original research that Good Ol'factory had are issues that an article can be deleted over. Peterkingiron and 208.81.184.4 think there is potential for an article, but have agreed that the article as it stands now has issues. DavidLeighEllis argued that the subject is notable, but did not address the issues with the article as it stands now.

In total, I believe that while there is no general agreement on whether the topic is suitable, we do have a rough consensus that the current article should not stay, and I am therefore calling this with a "delete" outcome. This should not be viewed as a prohibition on an new article on the topic that addresses the issues that were brought up here. If someone wants access to the deleted content, feel free to contact me or any other administrator. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perfection (Latter Day Saints)

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This article is an incredibly obscure topic in Mormon doctrine, about the interplay between faith, works, and grace etc. There is no independent research/commentary on the topic of any substance, so the article is doomed to always be heavily POV. The result is this article has been for the last several years mostly ignored by non-Mormon editors, and has turned into something that resembles a sunday school lesson in the Mormon church. I propose we delete this page altogether, and add a couple of sentences (all that is needed) to Beliefs and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints‎ to summarize the concepts. (This is actually already covered somewhat in that other article). Descartes1979 (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I agree that this article is problematic; I think it's composed of a lot of original research. Ultimately, I think conceptually it is probably mostly redundant to Exaltation (Mormonism), which is the name given to the status that one attains upon achieving perfection. I would merge any content to that article that is not already there. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- This is a poorly presented article, sicne it consists mostly of quotes. I am not a LDS, and find the content difficult to judge. I doubt there are any non-LDS experts in LDS theology. It sounds to me like a topic on which we ought to have an article. Do we not have some LDS-WPans, which would be capable of turning this into a decent article? Peterkingiron (talk) 10:40, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- There are a number of experts in LDS theology and history who are not LDS. Jan Shipps comes to mind—though she specialises in history, she also knows more about the details of theology than many members of the LDS faith. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment -- I know that IP's don't get a !vote on deletions, but "perfection" is a far more common topic in discourses by General Authorities of the LDS Church, as well as in core LDS literature in the last 100 years, than say Kolob (which we have a very extensive article for). In fact it is one of the principle elements of the "Three-Fold Mission of the Church" (essentially the church's modern mission statement), which is "to proclaim the gospel, to perfect the Saints [i.e. the members of the church], and to redeem the dead." That being said, this is a terrible article in it's current state. Also, given that there are distinct parallels to doctrines of some denominations in mainstream Christianity, this topic is not frequently fought over by apologetic & polemic sources (unlike Kolob), nor is it covered much academically in Mormon studies, so there isn't that much written about it other than directly by church leaders and members themselves. It is such a broad topic that we really can't do any better job here than at Beliefs and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints‎, since "Perfection" (i.e. perfecting the Saints) covers pretty much everything LDS Church members believe & do (for religious reasons) that is not directly related to Missionary & Temple work. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:04, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: IP editors actually have no restrictions in AfD discussions (WP:AFDFORMAT), and can nominate for AfD but need a registered user to finish the last two steps (WP:AFDHOW).

czar · · 18:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, czar · · 18:48, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notability within cultural context is sufficient. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 19:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.