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'{{Holiday}} You know, I've been fortunate in my life to have witnessed Laver and Rosewall walk out onto the court to play each other; to have heard the applause, to have heard dead silence from the crowd as a point was in progress. The years have come and gone as did the antics of Nastase, Connors and McEnroe... the stoic determinations of players like Borg, Evert, and Sampras... and now the space age materials and all-court players such as Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. Between submitting articles to tennis magazines, I've watched the ladies game move from lithe of foot players like King, Goolagong, and Navratilova, to athletic powerhouses, using hi-tech equipment, such as Graf and Williams. Service has changed from having to keep one foot on the ground or just getting the ball in play, to players who can fire a dart that only high speed cameras can behold. The four majors have changed in my lifetime from three grass courts and one clay court, to one grass court, two acrylic courts, and one clay court. The courts have also been changed in the last 20 years to be closer to the same speed; Wimbledon slowed down and the French Open sped up. The balls have also been slowed down and with all those changes the tougher-to-master net game has disappeared but the multi-surface champions have blossomed. Of course I wasn't there in the 1920's when tennis truly went international and the ILTF wrote into their bylaws that no Major championship could claim to be a "world championship" or that the language of tennis would be "for ever in English", but the repercussions of those early days, and binding together of adversarial organizations, laid the groundwork for what we have today. The sport is special to me and it always will be. As we venture into the unknown of pandemics and crowdless stadiums lets applaud how far we've come since Spencer Gore won the first Wimbledon Championships back in 1877. We'll get through this with flying colors, and not just tennis. We'll mourn our great losses but eventually move on like juggernaut. Tennis looks like it's in good hands with the youngest generation of players ready to grab the brass ring from the seats of their steads, but the legends are still hoping they get some splinters from reaching out too quickly. Cheers. {{User:SuggestBot/config |frequency = twice a month |replace }} {{Archives|collapsed=yes|image=none|search=no|large=no}} == Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot == ''Note:'' All columns in this table are sortable, allowing you to rearrange the table so the articles most interesting to you are shown at the top. All images have mouse-over popups with more information. 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It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. We appreciate that you have signed up to receive suggestions regularly; your contributions make Wikipedia better — thanks for helping! If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please let us know on [[User_talk:SuggestBot|SuggestBot's talk page]]. -- [[User:SuggestBot|SuggestBot]] ([[User talk:SuggestBot|talk]]) 23:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC) == "Other Entrants" == I hope this isn't another "proper phrase in tennis", since I'm about half way through fixing about a thousand of these. I hope you approve. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 04:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Dicklyon}} "Other Entrants" to "Other entrants" is fine. But "Women's Singles" to "Women's singles" and "Mixed Doubles" to "Mixed doubles" and "Gentlemen's Invitational Doubles" to "Gentlemen's invitational doubles" has not been discussed at Tennis Project. It looks like that was being changed also and should remain. This is part of the issues when [https://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/interactive/galleries/2018-07-11/2018-07-11_through_the_lens_highlights_from_day_8.html sources like Wimbledon], or [https://tennisgrandstand.com/tag/jared-palmer/ TennisGrandstand] or [https://www.tennisguru.net/2014/07/2014-wimbledon-winners-list-prize-money-breakdown/ TennisGuru] use "Gentlemen's Invitational Doubles" as the proper name of the event in question. I see it all the time. It may not be the most prevalent way, but it's common and what Tennis project has always used. before we change things it should be brought to the project so it can be discussed. I'm not particular one way or the other, but longstanding mass changes without discussion at the Tennis project bothers me a great deal. You should not be making these changes and I urge you to stop and discuss before doing more. Most tennis editors did not even appear at the RFC so perhaps they would all agree to you proposed changes. But perhaps not. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 05:14, 3 January 2022 (UTC) ::[https://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/news/galleries/2017-07-18/2017-07-18_the_2017_champions.html Wimbledon] has "the gentlemen's invitational doubles champions". And tennisgrandstand.com doesn't use this term at all except in headings (though they do have "the senior invitational doubles"), so provides no clue as to whether they'd treat it as a proper name. Same with tennisguru.net. Nothing there. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:26, 3 January 2022 (UTC) ::I do a lot of style fixes, including capitalization fixes. [[WP:BRD]] serves well here; if there's an objection or a revert, then discussion is in order. I don't see that as likely here. I had nothing but cooperation and thanks on my case fixing of "Singles" and such in badminton, bowls, table tennis, and such. You are the only one pushing back in tennis, so it's odd that you say you're not particular one way or the other. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:29, 3 January 2022 (UTC) ::And the fact that about a thousand tennis articles had "Other Entrants" tells me that there's an awful lot of copy&paste error going on, and that these articles have not previously been looked at for capitalization issues. They're quite a mess, really, as you can see by what I've been fixing. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC) :::{{replyto|Dicklyon}}I've said all along it's gets handled many ways. You provide a Wimbledon source one way and I provide a Wimbledon source another. Tennis Project chose one of those ways long ago and it should be mass changed without discussion at Tennis Project. Of course the page template gets copied and pasted with new items filled in. We go around all the time fixing capitalization to lower case. I've had to do it in player performance timelines to match MOS. But event names like Men's Singles is open to interpretation in tennis and should not be mass changed. I can't speak to those other sports since I don't know how the press or their organizations do things. Perhaps some people don't care or perhaps they are scared of your edits. I do care and I try to make sure everyone gets to see things that are longstanding and potentially controversial before some mass edit. I've made plenty of bold edits to important items, but I then let folks know at Tennis Project Talk exactly what I did and why and whether any have issues. Sometimes I'm surprised they do but then it gets discussed and it either stands or I get overruled. Or perhaps someone comes up with an alternate way. Then we move on. Forced mass changes, and changes you know I may have issues with seems pretty low to me. I'm surprised I'm seeing them. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 05:50, 3 January 2022 (UTC) ::::You have not shown any Wimbledon source using this phrase in a sentence. Have you read [[WP:TITLEFORMAT]], [[WP:NCCAPS]], [[MOS:CAPS]]? You seem to think that capped headings tell us something about how we should cap; they don't. Nobody else but you showed up to say "it's a proper name" for any of these things; they aren't. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:55, 3 January 2022 (UTC) :::::Bullpucky. The first source I gave you was Wimbledon.com using Gentlemen's Invitational Doubles in a sentence. So knock it off. I've given you others as well and I'm really getting tired of this. I've been pretty cordial even though we disagree on this LONGSTANDING CONBSENSUS. I told you what I think and how it should be handled so take it to Tennis Project talk and plead your case. I said maybe they will agree with you... I have no idea. I don't agree with this way of handling it and I think I can say we won't settle it on my talk page when Tennis Project is the place to go. I'm quite disappointed you started changing hundreds to thousands of articles. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 11:07, 3 January 2022 (UTC) ::::::Sorry, I got that wrong. The point is merely that these are not "consistently" capped, even at those [[WP:SSF|tennis specialist]] sites. And my rapid widespread changes across badminton, bowls, table tennis, tennis, and lots of others are aligned with broad consensus. It seems unlikely that Wikiproject Tennis is going to come up with a new reason to go a different direction than the rest of WP, especially given the inconsistency with [[WP:WikiProject Multi-sport events]]. If you'd stopped claiming these are proper names, we could get all this fixed up pretty quickly. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 18:03, 3 January 2022 (UTC) :::::::Fixed would mean that it's broken. It's not broken. Tennis Project simply followed one particular set of sources. You would like it changed and that's fine and dandy. Perhaps the Tennis Project will listen, but it's not broken. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 21:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC) ::::::::Following one particular set of sources is broken, especially if what you say is true that the tennis project negotiated a special exception to the rules with the Multi-sport events project, instead of following WP guidelines. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:48, 4 January 2022 (UTC) :::::::::Guidelines get tweaked by WikiProjects all the time and become Guidelines in their own right. Even the recent RFC said as much. I'm not sure what angle your driving for. I'm not so much against the changes as I am against you skipping the process. If you bring it to a Project and everyone agrees, then it changes. No issue from me at all. If you simply start changing 1000s of articles in a matter of hours without that ok then we have a problem. Especially if even one person disagrees. There is a process and I intend to follow it. Tennis Project did not negotiate a special multi-sport exception to rules. No one discussed broken rules... People were noticing that Olympic articles used lower case and Tennis articles used upper case. When it came to Olympic Tennis we had half the articles done one way a half the other. That was not good so it was discussed with Olympic editors that Tennis Project would stipulate lower case for Olympic Tennis articles. That way the projects wouldn't step on each others toes. Things can be done amicably if you stick to a process. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 08:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC) ::::::::::Guidelines can't be contradictory across projects or contradictory to central guidelines. By insisting on keeping it inconsistent, you're obstructing the process. Just say OK, let's follow [[MOS:CAPS]], and we'll fix it (at least to the first level, what we called option B, which will resolve the project contradictions). [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 21:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC) :::::::::::Of course they can. That's why they are guidelines. MOS guidelines can't possibly cover everything so projects take up the slack. If a week goes by and I'm the only dissension then you can go ahead and do those prose changes. Standard practice. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 23:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC) ::::::::::::Have you read [[WP:CONLEVEL]]? Guidelines are by consensus; centralized consensus can't be overridden by project consensus. And you really want to obstruct progress for another week, fighting [[MOS:CAPS]], hoping someone will take your side? Why? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 04:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC) :::::::::::::I've seen it many times in my 16 years here. Are you really saying you haven't seen WikiProject consensus override MOS? Strange. And I absolutely want to hold up changes for a week. We aren't on some time schedule here. It's a standard thing. And please keep it to the Tennis Talk page as we won't get anywhere here. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 08:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC) == Runners up == Let's start with your first message. "lease be careful . . " is how you started. I presume you mean please, but to avoid embarrassing yourself when trying to make a point, it would be wise if you proofread your own editing in future, which you should do anyway. In the first place, I am ONLY a constructive editor, and to suggest otherwise is grossly irresponsible and not supported by the evidence in my time with Wikipedia. As for the subject at hand, I see no evidence to support your argument, in fact quite the reverse. Do a Google search for the plural of runner up and see what comes up. As far as I can tell, there is no qualification of the plural meaning, and quite frankly the English language doesn't work like that. You don't spell the same term different ways, if it has different meanings. It doesn't make sense, and would make the English language more complicated than it already is. [[User:Editrite!|Editrite!]] ([[User talk:Editrite!|talk]]) 02:00, 29 January 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Editrite!}} Sorry but you are incorrect. Runners is the plural when talking about multiple runners. That is the reason it is runners-up in that context. When you are talking about the multiplication of the term "runner-up" it's a completely different matter. Now you are talking about the whole term, not just several runners. It is runner-ups in that context. Oxford said it is unusual to use in that manner but when it is it should be runner-ups. This has been discussed at Wikipedia in the past. Runners-up and runner-ups is not the same term, that's the point. Yes the English language is complicated. And I'm not embarrassed at all by a typo but you should be for even mentioning it here. Goodness. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 02:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC) ::It's difficult to know where to start. Let's talk constructive . . . NOT. Suffice to say that you shouldn't be editing, because you don't know what you're doing. You were in such a hurry to indiscriminately revert several of my edits, that you didn't notice that some of what you were restoring are wrong anyway, whichever way you look at it. Oh dear. For example, "3 runner up", "2 runners ups" and "1 runner ups". Don't worry if you can't see what's wrong, just know that they are. Look before you leap. As I've said before I see no evidence to support your argument. The vast majority of online dictionaries say otherwise. Now we have the ridiculous claim that there are two different types of runner up (which is a general term, by the way, that can apply to any sport). Let me get this right. You're saying that runners up only literally applies to runners (which is the way it reads), and it's different for other things. What next, swimmer up, golfer up etc? Seriously. Your appalling and lamentable attitude (it's only a typo), I have to say, goes to the heart of your credibility, which decreases with each post. [[User:Editrite!|Editrite!]] ([[User talk:Editrite!|talk]]) 03:28, 30 January 2022 (UTC) :::{{replyto|Editrite!}} If something is wrong and you change it to something equally wrong, then oh well. Once you start making multiple incorrect changes all bets are off. You are being nasty towards me and if all you can do is bitch and whine about things I feel sorry for you. Please find some other talk page to attack people. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 08:16, 30 January 2022 (UTC) == Date formatting == Just an FYI but American/Canadian tennis players date format is always in the form of MDY, not DMY. Please keep that in mind when updating stats on those articles. Thank You. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)|talk]]) 20:35, 31 January 2022 (UTC) :I think this does not make sense, what about the Australian players or the Asian players. I think the universal format should be “Day Month Year” for all dates. [[User:Sashona|Sashona]] ([[User talk:Sashona|talk]]) 22:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC) ::What we think doesn't really matter. Per longstanding Tennis Project consensus we use MDY on the countries that use MDY... US and Canada. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 01:22, 1 February 2022 (UTC) :::Your answer is quite pompous but most of all misleading, Canada actually uses the two different conventions, check in Wikipedia. Both 1 February 2022 and February 1, 2022 are valid.([[User talk:Sashona|talk]]) 6:00, 1 February 2022 (UTC) ::::French Canadians quite often use DMY, but otherwise it's almost universal MDY. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 10:28, 1 February 2022 (UTC) :::Looking further at your reverted versions and notes, which by the way deleted some of my contributions, you redirected me to take it up with the Tennis Project. I would but I was not part of it nor was I present when decisions were made, so I do not know how to go about asking. If you can assist on who, how and where to address I would definitely make my suggestions. ([[User talk:Sashona|talk]]) 6:26, 1 February 2022 (UTC) ::::{{replyto|Sashona}} If it changed too many dates in the same edit, then yes all was reverted. Every tennis article today is formatted the same way for Americans except for a few that escaped notice. As to where to ask it would be at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis]]. You wouldn't direct it at anyone since we work as a team. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 10:28, 1 February 2022 (UTC) == Different Masters Titles == Hello, You have been asked to contribute to the subject in the larger forum [[Talk:Tennis Masters Series records and statistics]]. Your contribution is important in improving the article. Please make your comments at your convenience. Thanks in advance. [[Special:Contributions/122.162.198.233|122.162.198.233]] ([[User talk:122.162.198.233|talk]]) 17:11, 17 February 2022 (UTC) == Thoughts and inquiries == Hello!<br> We've not interacted before but I wanted to stop by and introduce myself as I've observed that you're a prolific and dedicated editor in the tennis space here on Wikipedia. I've loved editing on tennis-related articles over the past almost-a-year or so, but I've quickly realized how combative the entire community is and wonder how you've come around to negotiating so many different compromises. I am not implying you're a gatekeeper at all, by any means, but in general, there just seems to be a very strong gatekeeper vibe in the tennis community here in general, which is usually not rare in all spaces on Wikipedia anyways, but is just unpleasant. C'est la vie. Anyways, my main inquiry is about a very specific thing on tennis tournament articles (such is the nitty-gritty nature of Tennis Wikipedia). Almost all Grand Slam articles begin the article formatted as:<br> "[Winner] defeated [Finalist] in the final, [score], to win the "2022 __ Open" [gender]'s singles tennis title." I appreciate that kind of format, as I personally believe the actual tournament's champion should be the main point of the article and is much more memorable than invoking the defending champion first. We would essentially be burying the lead if we don't mention the actual winner from the start, and Grand Slam articles kind of make that point. But I have observed this format very sporadically applied to other tennis tournament articles, because there seem to be most editors that prefer the following format, and even use the reason or excuse of "customary order" or something like that:<br>"[Defending champion] was the defending champion, but lost in the [round] to [Who they lost to]. [Winner] won the title, defeating [Finalist] in the final, [score]." So, given that I'm comparably new to the tennis community on Wikipedia, I wanted to hear from you your thoughts and if there was ever a consensus that was decided long ago when it came to this specific issue. We may disagree on this, but I would love to discuss and look forward to hearing your insights. I appreciate your time![[User:Tunestoons|Tunestoons]] ([[User talk:Tunestoons|talk]]) 20:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Tunestoons}} Welcome and thanks. It's not easy creating compromises here, and I've had my share of times that things just didn't work. But more often than not I can get some sort of compromise on things. I do it in real life so perhaps in translates here too. Things to keep in mind. You can be bold in a change and simply do it, but if even one person objects then don't change it back and instead bring it to either the article talk page or, if it's more broad in complexity, bring it to Tennis Project talk. There many good minds that may be able to come up with something everyone can semi-agree to or explain why your idea is not a good one. :My mantra is usually, what is best for our readers within the context of an encyclopedia that summarizes facts? I recently failed to convince others on the bad use of using lower case rather than what I thought was best, upper case for certain titles and sub titles. That happens. I still know in my heart it's wrong, but I'm a team player and there are thousands of other things that need fixing. I move on to work on other things. You also have to be willing to walk away from repeated verbal abuse. It's not worth it to converse with those nasty editors when there are so many good editors here you can gain a rapport with. :Now specifically to your point of "[Winner] defeated [Finalist] in the final, [score], to win the "2022 __ Open" [gender]'s singles tennis title." That was brought about at Tennis Project by several new readers and administrator queries. We needed the most important item first and foremost... winner/loser/score. It was also pointed out that these are stand-alone articles and readers didn't know what the event was or even what the sport was! We fixed that by changing all the major tournaments to the aforementioned format. That is the defacto standard for all tournaments now. The wording can be changed a bit so it's not a cookie-cutter experience, but we need winner/loser/score/tennis/event in the lead sentence. There are hundreds of events that have not been changed yet, but I fix them when I edit them for other reasons. They should never start with a defending champion's loss unless it is before the tournament has completed and other info isn't available yet. :I hope that helps a little and welcome onboard. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 23:23, 21 February 2022 (UTC) ::{{replyto|Fyunck(click)}} Thank you so much for getting back to me and for sharing some of your wisdom as a veteran editor in the tennis space here. I relate to and will try to continue to live by what you said about needing to just maintain the teamplayer atmosphere and trying to forego the smallest of things for the greater good. ::Now, as for how you answered my question about the article format starting with the "[Winner] defeated...", I'm happy to see we are on the same page. In early-January, I had been begun modifying some of the articles for smaller tournaments in this fashion, because I share the exact same thought process as you when it comes to introducing each tournament article with "winner/loser/score/tennis/event" in the lead. The biggest thing for me is that by starting the article this way, it frames the rest of the article more organically, because the new champion's achievements or records would be better contextualized or emphasized. ::However, many of my edits to bring it to this format have been reverted in the past, simply because the excuse was "customary order" or "this is how it's always been done" (meaning -- the other way, with the article beginning by stating the loss of the defending champion). Since I didn't want to create an active edit war with the person reverting those edits, I just let them be. What are your thoughts on actively making these edits to these tournaments (the 250s or lesser-known 500s are most neglected in this regard)? I do want to edit, but again, it's the edit warring aspect I really feel like avoiding. Thanks for sparing your time in getting back to me.[[User:Tunestoons|Tunestoons]] ([[User talk:Tunestoons|talk]]) 01:13, 22 February 2022 (UTC) :::{{replyto|Tunestoons}} One thing I would do is not change a bunch of 2022 articles since an editor will see all the prior ones and say its not consistent. Start with the oldest of a tournament and work your way to the present... then do the same with other tournaments. All the four majors are already fixed (mostly by me), it's the lesser events that need work. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 06:42, 22 February 2022 (UTC) ::::{{replyto|Fyunck(click)}} Thanks again. Do you recall when the discussion took place at the Tennis Project when it came time to making the consensus for the tournament article word ordering? I want to have something handy to cite in response to claims otherwise. I really appreciate the guidance. [[User:Tunestoons|Tunestoons]] ([[User talk:Tunestoons|talk]]) 06:50, 23 February 2022 (UTC) :::::{{replyto|Tunestoons}}I cant recall all the talk. It may have first been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis/Archive_16#2005_Australian_Open_%E2%80%93_Men's_Singles_Qualifying brought up back in 2016]. Many got fixed by me and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis/Archive_19#More_fundamental_problems listed per this edit]. There were more discussions but it was set by 2019. Also, no need to put replyto on my own talk page. I get notified regardless. Cheers.[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 08:02, 23 February 2022 (UTC) ::::::@[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] can you give me the link to the discussion on the [[WP:Tennis]] about said topic. I noticed in the current tournaments' draws, editors are still reverting to the old format of listing defending champions first and then "winner/loser/score/tennis/event", instead of vice versa as it had been discussed on the Tennis Project, so I can use it as a reference for persistent editors, sticking to the old format. Best, [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 22:36, 25 February 2022 (UTC) == Beginning of decades quandary == Hey, @[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]]. I have been looking at the different decade-related stats on tennis pages. And just can't understand why are decades considered as beginning from ###0 and not ###1 and the many, well, all incorrect records statistics therein. That would mean changing and consequently correcting ALL decade records accordingly so they fit the format. This would in turn affect many articles, which are pertinent to records spanning multiple decades, for instance, Nadal being No. 1 in 3 different decades, Serena winning a title in 3 different decades, etc. Do you think it's worth to start this kind of discussion on the WP:Tennis project, or not? You think others would just disregard this proposal as ludacris or it may actually gain traction? We are talking about a lot of records and statistics, spanning not just across tennis' history but also sports' history, in general. I hope this makes sense. Looking forward to hearing from you. Best, [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 11:18, 22 February 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Qwerty284651}} It's one of those things I guess. In life whenever you watch things on tv such as CNN's "The 80s", it's always 1980-1989, not 1981-1990. Even the change of the millennium was debated in newspapers as whether it started on January 1, 2000 or January 1, 2001. I think 99% of people would say that Jan 1 thru Dec 31 1980 was part of the decade of the 80s. I'm not particularly partial either way but my guess is that it would be an avalanche in favor of 1980-1989. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 20:24, 22 February 2022 (UTC) ::If you were in Nadal's or Serena's shoes and someone called out that they were actually No. 1 in 2 decades or won a title in 2 different decades, instead of 3, and it got ratified and accepted, would you object such claim or would you disregard it as something menial, not important and moved on with your life? I am asking, because I will be making said section on this very topic in tennis articles, where none are present as of now. And I am with the whole 21th century began on 1 Jan, 2001, not 2000, which, as you've guessed it by now, goes against my beliefs....not that this particular belief is of some big relevance, or anything. It's just that I want to make sure, I am siding with the majority here, make sure I am on the same page with the masses...you catch my drift...So, yeah. That is my thought process on this decennial quandary, so to speak. Thanks for putting your 2 cents on the matter. Cheers, [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 21:20, 22 February 2022 (UTC) :::{{replyto|Qwerty284651}} You can always put it up at Tennis Project and see what you get. I'm thinking it'll be overwhelming 80-89 as being a decade. Plus wikipedia itself has an [[1980s|article on the 1980s]] that says the same. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 21:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] Thanks for the article link. Had no idea there was an entire article on said topic. Cheers, [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 23:12, 22 February 2022 (UTC) == Accessibility issues == @[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] I know you are well educated in the Accessibility department on Wiki, so I was wondering is <code>align=center</code> accessibility friendly or is the <code>style="text-align:center"</code> parameter/function a more common way of editing, that would not pause the screen reader, that the impaired use. The latter being used in modifying data cells, not styles that set the rule for an entire table. Just making sure, all the table I make/change meet the Accessibility criteria. What is your opinion on this? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 23:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Qwerty284651}} I was under the impression that "align" was deprecated in html4 and obsolete in html5 and that it should usually be done as <code>td style="text-align: center;"</code>. Not just for accessibility but all html. It may still work in many instances but soon enough it will just come back with an error.[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 23:30, 24 February 2022 (UTC) ::Luckily it does not give out any Linter errors. So, at least that's something. As for HTML compatibility, that is beyond me. [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 23:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC) :::{{replyto|Qwerty284651}} It may not give errors but align should never be used anymore when writing new code as shown [https://sites.chem.utoronto.ca/chemistry/dstone/html/tables103.html#:~:text=Replacing%20The%20Deprecated%20align%20Attribute,text%2Dalign%20property%20for%20text. right here], and also [https://rocketvalidator.com/html-validation/the-align-attribute-on-the-td-element-is-obsolete-use-css-instead right here]. Sort of like "bgcolor" will still work but should not be used in new coding. I think they still work in accessibility because of backwards compatibility with screen readers... but that's right now. What happens in a couple years when a new screen reader comes out that doesn't understand bgcolor or align? [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 23:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC) ::::@[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] Revamp the {{plk|https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:SMcCandlish/lint.css Lint Error recognition system}}, so it marks also, <code>align</code> and <code>bgcolor</code> as obsolete markups, and start using <code>style="text-align:XYZ"</code> <code>style="background:XYZ"</code> from that point forwards? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 00:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC) :::::I guess that could work. As long as old coding keeps working in articles that haven't been touched in years, and new articles work but get a lint error. That way it hopefully gets fixed as soon as it's created. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 01:22, 25 February 2022 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, hopefully. It's the little things that count. Scope=row, scope=col,...and so on and so forth, that make the screen readers' impaired users' lives a little bit easier and does stop abruptly after every mising scope parameter, or whatever.. come to think of it. Have you been in contact with any visually impaired here on Wiki, to hear what screen readers they use? I would like to test out a few for myself just to see what they look/sound like. Do you have any in mind, any proposals for one? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 08:22, 25 February 2022 (UTC) ::::::::It's been awhile since had conversations with a couple resident screen reader users but there is a tennis editor who uses one. I'll have to check my talk page history or search the tennis project talk history. I think JAWS and NVDA are still the dominant screen readers. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 09:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC) :::::::::'''But there is a tennis editor who uses one.''' Yes, please do. I know there is this blind admin on the Wiki, that specializes in tennis, if I am not mistaking. He has a fully fledged user page with photo and everything. Cannot remember his name for the life of me. Do you, by any chance, know what his name is? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 15:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC) ::::::::::{{replyto|Qwerty284651}} Administrator [[User:Graham87]] has checked tennis charts of ours from time to time. He used to use JAWS but that may have changed. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 20:57, 25 February 2022 (UTC) :::::::::::Yeah, yeah. Him. I am gonna contact him to see what are his thoughts on the align markup compatibility with screen readers, scope=row,...etc. Thanks, @[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 21:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC) == Any vertical table resorters? == @[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]], do you know if there is a tool that rearranges tables' columns (vertically) from ascending to descending other and vice versa, the same way [https://wiki-tennis.toolforge.org/misc/ the current resorter] is used for horizontal rearrangement. [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 06:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Qwerty284651}} I do not know of any but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 08:46, 26 February 2022 (UTC) ::Would be cool if I could find one. Not skilled in Java scripts to attempt in making one. [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 11:49, 26 February 2022 (UTC) == How do you clean typographical errors? == Hey there, {{ping|Fyunck(click)}}. I have noticed that you've been fixing en- and em-dashes, i.e. typographical errors, on various different pages. Tell me, which tool/software do you use to fix the errors in Wikipedia articles? [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 01:01, 1 March 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Qwerty284651}} My gosh, I've used that script for so long I had completely forgotten how or where to find it. It always shows a "-" sign at the top of every wikipedia page I go to (right next to history) and I simply click it to fix all the dashes. I found it the same way you did when I noticed and editor always using it to fix things. It's a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ohconfucius/dashes.js script found right here]. You simply insert the script into your javascript common.js page and away you go. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 01:46, 1 March 2022 (UTC) ::@[[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] I have both AutoEd and the dashes script in my common.js page, which are, unfortunately, not independent from each other, so I will have to turn one off, before using the other. But still, thanks for the link to the script. [[User:Qwerty284651|Qwerty284651]] ([[User talk:Qwerty284651|talk]]) 09:40, 1 March 2022 (UTC) == [[:Peng Shuai]] == How do you see this? Do I ask them to seek dispute resolution or just partial block somebody? Are there any MOS or BLP violations in either contending version? --<b>[[User:Deepfriedokra|<span style="color:black">Deep</span><span style="color:red">fried</span><span style="color:DarkOrange">okra</span>]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(<span style="color:black">talk</span>)]]</b> 12:41, 19 March 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Deepfriedokra}} I didn't follow every single change that was going back and forth but I was getting sick and tired of content changing every day for months. It wasn't vandalism per say, it is a content dispute. There are multiple players but the key players are FobTown and CurryCity. They need a timeout from that article to work on their difference only on the talk page. Whenever a page gets locked there is always disgruntleness on the timing. I've been on the wrong end in the past, but that's the way it goes. :My own thought on the article is there are no massive MOS or BLP violations; the lead where you locked it is about right in length but they should be able to come to an agreement in talk or dispute resolution to exact wording. The section on "Sexual assault allegation and disappearance" is ridiculously long and trivial. Had I written it, it would probably be 1/3 the size. Readers can get finer details by following the outside sources. :This all said, I hate blocks without every chance. I think a dispute resolution or 3rd party could help. I would make it clear that whenever the lock is lifted anymore shenanigans and the hammer will come down. Those are my thoughts for what it's worth. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 20:42, 19 March 2022 (UTC) ::Worth a lot. One of the editors I see around, so I value your insight. --<b>[[User:Deepfriedokra|<span style="color:black">Deep</span><span style="color:red">fried</span><span style="color:DarkOrange">okra</span>]] [[User talk:Deepfriedokra|(<span style="color:black">talk</span>)]]</b> 20:49, 19 March 2022 (UTC) == NSports == Hey, I know you disagree with the outcome of the sports RfC, but constantly asking why things are being changed even after it's been explained to you and continuing to advocate for presumed notability when you know the consensus is against it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)&diff=prev&oldid=1080609718&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)&diff=prev&oldid=1080608675&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)&diff=prev&oldid=1080572373&diffmode=source][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)&diff=prev&oldid=1080428552&diffmode=source] is beginning to become disruptive. Please stop. Consensus is to change "presumed notable" to "significant coverage is likely to exist" and to remove any sport-specific criteria based on mere participation. If you have any questions about how that was decided or why we are changing a long-standing guideline, you might consider reaching out to the editor who closed the RfC, one of us who are working on implementation, or asking at the [[WP:TEA|Teahouse]], but do not raise these questions in the middle of a discussion. –[[User:Dlthewave|dlthewave]] [[User_talk:Dlthewave|☎]] 12:44, 2 April 2022 (UTC) :There are administrators also advocating for Presumed Notable. That it's inherent with guidelines. All I'm saying is that if it's not presumed notable then it is ridiculous to also remove participation. I will continue to advocate for one or the other. I'm flexible but will not go to the side of craziness no matter how it was closed. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 19:59, 2 April 2022 (UTC) == [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[:Tennis tournament records and statistics]] == [[File:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|alt=Notice|48px|]] The article [[:Tennis tournament records and statistics]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]]&#32;because of the following concern: <blockquote>'''Per [[WP:NLIST]] and [[WP:REDUNDANT]]. See [[All-time_tennis_records_–_Men's_singles#Single_tournament_records|men's]] and [[All-time_tennis_records_–_Women's_singles#Most_titles_at_a_single_tournament|women's]] records articles.'''</blockquote> While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]]. You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:Tennis tournament records and statistics|the article's talk page]]. Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist. In particular, the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|speedy deletion]] process can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|articles for deletion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> '''<span style="color: red;">This bot DID NOT nominate any of your contributions for deletion; please refer to the [[Help:Introduction to navigating Wikipedia/4|history]] of each individual page for details.</span>''' Thanks, [[User:FastilyBot|FastilyBot]] ([[User talk:FastilyBot|talk]]) 10:00, 6 May 2022 (UTC) == Thefamouspeople as a reference == Hi Fyunck(click). I noticed that you recently used thefamouspeople.com as a source for [[WP:BLP|biographical information]] in [[Natalie Dormer]]. Please note that the general consensus as expressed at [[WP:RSN]] is that it does not meet the [[WP:RS|reliable sourcing criteria]] for the inclusion of personal information in such articles. I've gone ahead and removed it. If you disagree, let's discuss it. You may want to check [[WP:RSP]] and [[WP:RSN]] to help determine if a source is reliable. Thanks.--[[User:Hipal|Hipal]] ([[User talk:Hipal|talk]]) 15:59, 7 May 2022 (UTC) == Survivor Tables == Thank you for your adjustments to the contestants table on [[Survivor: Winners at War]]. I could not for the life of me figure out how to "unbold" data in that first column, and I really didn't want to create a separate column for the players' previous seasons. The table is already too wide as it is. [[User:Bgsu98|Bgsu98]] ([[User talk:Bgsu98|talk]]) 06:28, 9 May 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Bgsu98}}Yeah I'm not happy with how wide the table is now, but I can't figure out how to do it any better with the odd game play that season. The unbolding was tricky to remember how to do it. Easy if left as |scope but not when left as !scope. Perhaps the first column could be set as pixels and narrower... but not too narrow as to cause three lines of text? [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 06:34, 9 May 2022 (UTC) ::There's only the two seasons with the Edge of Extinction, but there are a few seasons with Redemption Island that I haven't gotten to yet, and those are going to cause the table to swell outward. Check out the edits someone just made to [[Survivor: All-Stars]]. I'm not sure I like having a separate column for players' previous seasons, especially with a season like [[Survivor: Winners at War]] where the table is already overly wide. [[User:Bgsu98|Bgsu98]] ([[User talk:Bgsu98|talk]]) 06:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC) :::{{replyto|Bgsu98}}And you beat me to it on All-stars.... I was going to fix it the same way. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 07:40, 9 May 2022 (UTC) The † symbol means that the contestant has died. [[User:Bgsu98|Bgsu98]] ([[User talk:Bgsu98|talk]]) 07:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Bgsu98}}There is no key for that and I'm not sure that info is relevant to the episode. Do we start adding that symbol to tables of Wimbledon winners to show who has died? Or to the list of List of Olympic medalists in mens water polo. That seems out of place. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 07:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC) ::I was just answering your question. There probably should be a key if that information is going to be listed. [[User:Bgsu98|Bgsu98]] ([[User talk:Bgsu98|talk]]) 07:27, 13 May 2022 (UTC) :::{{replyto|Bgsu98}}I understand, thanks. I had no idea what it was. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 07:43, 13 May 2022 (UTC) ::::I agree that it may be inappropriate to each season article. [[User:Bgsu98|Bgsu98]] ([[User talk:Bgsu98|talk]]) 07:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC) == Thank you == Thank you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Emma_Raducanu&diff=1088121083&oldid=1088120279 for your edit]. I didn't know how to fix it. [[User:CABF45|CABF45]] ([[User talk:CABF45|talk]]) 05:45, 17 May 2022 (UTC) == Fake rfc == Hi, I got notified by your rfc. Since it was in sandbox space I nowikid the rfc tag. Were you trying to test something or what? You can test this stuff on https://test.wikipedia.org/. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] - [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Herrscher of Wikis]] 00:44, 23 July 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Awesome Aasim}} Oops. I worked on it in the sandbox and didnt delete when I moved to mainspace. The actual RfC is at the bottom of [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis]]. Thanks. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 01:09, 23 July 2022 (UTC) == Republic of China is not simply Taiwan. == You disagree with me on this. Elaborate. [[Special:Contributions/84.26.190.194|84.26.190.194]] ([[User talk:84.26.190.194|talk]]) 23:20, 30 July 2022 (UTC) :Everyone disagrees with you. Read the talk page archives of Taiwan and convince people there.... not just me. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 04:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC) == A1750501587 == thinks I'm stupid. [[User:Deepfriedokra|-- Deepfriedokra]] ([[User talk:Deepfriedokra|talk]]) 04:06, 5 August 2022 (UTC) :{{replyto|Deepfriedokra}} LOL... as I am just now reading the dialog...yeah. I'm guessing you deal with a lot of difficult "grey areas" but this was a slam dunk. They'll probably just create a new account, but thanks for the help here. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 04:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC) == Performance timelines == I'm in the process of creating a tool that automatically generates performance timelines tables for players. The manual updating is painful at best because you never know if the counts are accurate. I have a couple of questions: 1) Team events (Davis Cup, ATP Cup, etc.) are excluded from the tournament count (tournaments played, SR), right?<br /> 2) Next Gen Finals results ''do'' count, yes? [[User:Rubyaxles|Rubyaxles]] ([[User talk:Rubyaxles|talk]]) 22:00, 9 August 2022 (UTC) :I believe you are correct on both. Someone tried this before but they couldn't make them look exactly like our tables. Make sure you keep the tennis project talk page informed so members can see the finished form. As far as the counts being accurate, we would still need to insert the correct info so if someone put in garbage we would still get garbage. One of the tough things is tournaments names change so we need to have flexibility. And sometimes ATP/WTA numbers are wrong so we need to be able to over-ride. I also assume you are talking about the big charts on the career statistics pages, not the smaller Grand Slam tournament charts on the player's main page? Good luck. [[User:Fyunck(click)|Fyunck(click)]] ([[User talk:Fyunck(click)#top|talk]]) 23:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC) ::Yeah I realize it's a huge undertaking but I think it will be worth it in the end. The idea is the tool would be able to generate both the big charts and the GS summaries. Thanks! ::[[User:Rubyaxles|Rubyaxles]] ([[User talk:Rubyaxles|talk]]) 19:13, 10 August 2022 (UTC) == Nomination of [[:SIGNY]] for deletion == <div class="afd-notice"> <div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article '''[[:SIGNY]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]]. The article will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SIGNY]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. <!-- Template:Afd notice --></div> [[User:Clarityfiend|Clarityfiend]] ([[User talk:Clarityfiend|talk]]) 23:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC) == Discretionary sanctions notice == {{ivmbox | image = Commons-emblem-notice.svg |imagesize=50px | bg = #E5F8FF | text = This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. 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