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* {{user|Lotuspwr33}}
* {{user|Lotuspwr33}}
* {{user|GioA90}}
* {{user|GioA90}}
* {{user|Techairtc}} (blocked)
* more ip users were omitted.
* more ip users were omitted.
* See also [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lzzy303]], [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Lzzy303 reported by User:Jasmir54 (Result: )]], [[Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests#Communion and Liberation]]
* See also [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lzzy303]], [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Lzzy303 reported by User:Jasmir54 (Result: )]], [[Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests#Communion and Liberation]]

Revision as of 19:24, 26 July 2018

    Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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    This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

    When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
    You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

    Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

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    Incorrect and defamatory statement on the Wikipedia page about me

    On the Wikipedia page about me at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Brezsny, there is a statement at top that goes as follows:

    "This article may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments, a violation of Wikipedia's terms of use. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies."

    It is absolutely untrue that there have been payments from me to anyone to create or edit this page. Please remove this incorrect and defamatory statement.

    I requested that this be removed three days ago, and no action has been taken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspiratrix (talk • contribs) 03:54, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The statement does not say who made the alleged payments, it only says that payments were allegedly made, so why do you assume it is about you? If, for instance, you have a publicist, which seems likely given your profession, the publicist could have made those alleged payments without you even being aware of them. Hence, there is no defamation here -- but in any case, you should be aware of our WP:No legal threats policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:11, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, I checked Inspiratrix's edits on that page, and while they have a few edits, they aren't COI type edits. It's clearly other editors that created the issues. --Masem (t) 04:17, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The implication is that the article is biased in favor of the subject and that he paid for this result. There is no reason to believe that. There is nothing in the article that is biased for or against the subject. The tags should be removed. TFD (talk) 05:20, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    No, the implication is that someone paid someone to write or edit the article. Your conclusion is an inference. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree the notice creates innuendo that the subject is associated with unethical self-promotion. It is a BLP issue. If merely conjecture, the notice should go to the talk page. If based on evidence, the tag should point to the evidence, and we should respond in a timely manner to resolve the problem. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:51, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • For what it's worth I think {{COI}} was a better template for this occasion, as despite of the promotional languages, it doesn't really have the hallmarks of the typical undisclosed paid editing in my opinion. Alex Shih (talk) 06:06, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • If we don't have any evidence for paid activity, or at least some sound reasoning based on credible suspicion, then I think the tag should be removed. It is a BLP after all, and the tag does imply nefarious activity. If it is based on this, then I don't see that as justifying it at all - creating an account and making suggestions on the talk page is exactly what the subject of a BLP (or other editor with a COI) should do. If there's evidence that the BLP subject has been editing the article directly rather than via talk page suggestions, then I see it as a COI thing rather than PAID. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      Actually, having properly read the very recent contributions of Ronald Joe Record at the talk page, I take that all back - "We are attempting to improve the content and citations" along with the rest of their way of arguing really does suggest marketing/promotional activity. I'm now neutral on whether the tag is appropriate. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:26, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Foremost in the decision should be respect and the dignity of the subject, per the WMF resolution. The complaint here is a reasonable one, and a vague suspicion of paid editing is a matter for talk page discussion, not appear to be a public allegation in a large notice. I have been bold and removed the notice diff. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 07:23, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Endorse the removal of the tag as a courtesy to the article subject, but not as a validation of the user who was edit warring to retain promotional content. I have issued them a DS alert as well as lengthy advice on the talk page, including warnings against continued disruptive behavior. Swarm ♠ 08:25, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would assume - and I may be wrong - that if you're going to slap a "undisclosed paid" template on an article you should explain why you feel that this is the case on the talk page, particularly if it's not immediately obvious. Fish+Karate 08:35, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    This has been well handled by Jytdog and Melcous, appropriately, by editing the article and Fae removed the tag. I'm now having a crack at the associated World Entertainment War article. Nice work. Inspiratrix, if you do have a publicist, it might be worth mentioning to them that their best course of action is requesting edits on talk pages of any artists they represent, because publicists' efforts here often backfire, first on their client, and then, presumably, the client may get irritated enough to find a new publicist.

    FWIW, I neither agree that the tag was defamatory (note the word "may") nor do I think your post here was a legal threat. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:29, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    And FWIW on my part, I never said that there was a legal threat made, I merely pointed an editor who had used the legal term "defamation" towards our NLT policy so they would know the limits of what was allowed. A courtesy more than anything else. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    From Inspiratrix: There has been mention of a supposed publicist here when referring to me. Maybe I should have a publicist, but I don't, and haven't had one since 2005, when I hired a publicist for three months to help promote my book "Pronoia Is the Antidote for Paranoia."
    As for the music references, I'm not sure what you mean when you say one is an "op ed," and when you say that two are not independent. The articles in the Good Times, Popmatters.com, and Gnosis magazine are not op-ed and are independent in every way I can conceive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspiratrix (talk • contribs) 04:34, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    {{ping}Inspiratrix}} Please do insert your replies into the middle of someone else' comment. It disrupts the flow of the discussion and makes it difficult to tell who is saying what. I've moved your comment (just above this) to the correct placement. Also, please "sign" your comment at the end by using 4 tildes, i.e. ~~~~. The system will respond to this by adding your account name and a date/time stamp. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:14, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Damn! I can't do an f'ing ping correctly to save my life. @Insporatrix: Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:16, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    See what I mean? I give up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:20, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Beyond My Ken, You also wrote "Please do insert your replies into the middle of someone else' comment." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yikes! Obviously I meant "do not" - thinking faster than my fingers can type. Thanks for the catch. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:40, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Inspiratrix asks Beyond my Ken: Thanks for your note of advice. I'm not sure where to put my comments so that it's clear they're a response to someone els'e comments. Can you offer guidance? Inspiratrix (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Just put your response directly after the end of the comment you're responding to. Use colons to indent: one more colon than the comment you're responding to is the norm. If there have been intervening comments from other editors, and you think it will be unclear who you are responding to, you can put the name of the editor at the beginning of the comment, as in: "@Beyond My Ken: Thanks for your note..." And make sure you're posting in the correct thread - I rescued the comment above from a thread further down the page. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:40, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll say what I think is obivious--that if the subject of the article contacted an editor, and if that editor starts editing, and if then another editor jumps on that bus, and if then a third editor say "not so fast", sees a poorly written, non-neutral article with absolutely lousy sources and a bunch of linkspam, if all that happens it would be a good idea for the first editor to explain what this contact was about, and for the second editor to not start throwing accusations around. As usual, though, I'm sure sunlight is the best disinfectant: my thanks to all the editors who took an interest in the article, first of all Kleuske. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I swore off engaging with User:Drmies but that seems to have lasted about 5 hours. The narrative he constructs here is orthogonal to the one I perceived transpire rapidly over the course of the last few days. First of all, the Rob Brezsny astrological empire is not paying people to edit Wikipedia. He's not Trump. He's not even Beyonce. He's a writer with an astrology column, a few very good books under his belt, and credits for a couple of songs subsequently recorded by Jefferson Starship. Drmies came in and made such substantive deletions to the article that I initially thought it must be vandalism. I said so in the comment to my revert, taking the page back to the last agreed upon revision. I opened a discussion on the talk page to resolve this. The editor, who I subsequently learned is on the arbitration committee, provided sparse replies on the talk page and completely disregarded the main issue which was his tag bombing of the page including an Undisclosed payments tag. Most of all this has been resolved and I am posting this comment here only for the record. The editor, in my opinion, was combative, aggressive, and most importantly adversarial. There was little to no attempt at collaboration. I opened several sections on the talk page attempting to engage and even added a comment on his talk page attempting to lighten the tone and give him some respect. But all these overtures were met with continued vitriol. There is no evidence and no indication that anyone is taking any money for editing this article. It's ludicrous. The addition of the Undisclosed payments tag in the absence of ANY evidence or indication of ill will is, in my opinion, a violation of the assumption of good will policy. There are a number of really odd comments and maybe misperceptions in this comment thread I would like to comment on but do not have the time right now. One of them, however, I would like to get some clarification on. User: Boing! said Zebedee said that my comment "We are attempting to improve the content and citations" really does suggest marketing/promotional activity. I'm trying to understand how my statement of intent to improve suggests promotional activity. Ronald Joe Record (talk) 02:35, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • (1) Long unbroken paragraphs are difficult to read online, and you should consider expressing your thoughts in smaller sections. If you don't, expect to see comments such as "TL,DNR", meaning "Too long, did not read"
    • (2) It's not in any way "ludicrous". Paid editing is a problem on Wikipedia, it's happened before, it's happening now, and it will happen again. The integrity of the encyclopedia is at stake, and we take that very seriously. That you were momentarily discomfited is hardly of paramount concern.
    • (3) Drmies is not a member of the Arbitration Committee, they are a former member of the Arbitration Committee, having served out their term and choosing not to run again. Nevertheless, Drmies is an administrator, a long-term editor, and a respected member of the Wikipedia community, with a great deal of integrity.
    • (4) Your comments here and on the article talk page show quite clearly that you have a conflict of interest in regard to Rob Brezsny, in that you are obviously incapable of adhering to a neutral point of view concerning them. Whatever the reason is for this, I have no idea, but the inability to edit neutrally is very apparent. I would suggest that you follow the recommended procedures in the WP:COI policy and do not edit the Rob Brezsny article again, instead making suggestions for edits on the talk page, and allowing other, unbiased, editors decide whether to implement them.
    Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • BMK, "integrity"? Ha! I appreciate it, though. As for Doctorfree--BMK, I have, on occasion, made fun of your BOLD and UNDERLINING, but I have always admired your paragraphing: a model to follow. I understand that Doctorfree is still having a hexagonal or orthogonal or diametrical issue with me, but I'm afraid it goes over my head. Drmies (talk) 23:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know that my bolding and so forth is idiosyncratic, and may put some people off, but as my son says, it makes the words on the page sound exaclty as I would say them, which is my goal: to avoid misinterpretation by providing in some small measure what is missing from words in print - tone of voice. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:39, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Just mentioning something in support/clarification of point 2, RJR you seem to have the misapprehension that only extremely rich and famous people have had paid editing for them. This isn't the case. Actually the biggest problem tends to IMO come from fairly unknown people. This may be because there are a lot more of them.

    But it's probably also because for such a person, a wikipedia article is often a very important part of what people learn about them. The fact that the subject is here complaining is of course evidence that they do care, and I'm in no way saying I blame them or that indicates fault. Further the people who tend to be involved in promoting them are often a lot less informed about acceptable standards. They themselves are also probably more likely to want to get directly involved in getting the article on them, in their view, fixed or improved. I have no idea about the specifics of this case, so my comment in no way suggests that this actually happened but you mentioned books and music. There are often minor PR people in the publisher who occasionally do work to to promote the work and part of that is often promoting the person. </p

    And as said, speaking generally even a direct payment isn't particularly surprising. It's not like it's tens of thousands of dollars. In fact, if someone in a developing country on a freelancer site is being hired, it could be less than the cost of a simple (i.e. not fine dining) restaurant meal in many developed countries without any alcohol served. Or a weeks worth of coffees.

    And relatively unknown people are hiring people for PR and related work all the time. I had a quick look at the article in question and sure enough found a webpage. It's possible this was entirely self designed and hosted but I doubt it. In any case even if this is true, domain names nowadays can be cheap but still aren't free (well .com 2LD anyway) and the WHOIS on that fairly specific domain suggests it's been registered since 2000.

    Again, to be clear, I'm not suggesting any paid editing happened. I know hardly anything about the case. I'm simply suggesting your incredulousness that it could have happened simply because the person is relatively unknown makes little sense since it's happened for people who are even less known who are far poorer than this person.

    Nil Einne (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • Doctorfree, whenever someone says "we", there will be suspicion due to Wikipedia:Username policy#Shared accounts. I understand this is not the case, so naturally the next question would be, who are the other person(s) implied in your statement? Did the article subject (Rob Brezsny) ask you to improve the article back in 2008, and continued to ask you to monitor the article as of present? In either case, your conflict of interest should be apparent. Alex Shih (talk) 02:46, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the reply User:Alex Shih. Is it really the case that my use of the word "we" prompted other editors to reach the conclusion that the statement "really does suggest marketing/promotional activity"? The "we" I was referring to was the Wikipedia editors who were and are contributing to the article. No, the article subject did not ask me to improve the article back in 2008. No, the article subject did not continue to ask me to monitor the article as of present. Are we now in the inquisition phase? What the heck is going on? Look at my edit history. What do you mean that my "conflict of interest should be apparent"? How does one reach such a conclusion from the facts? Please point me to evidence that would support an assertion that I have a conflict of interest in this matter. Exasperating and disappointing, Wikipedia was such a wonder for so many years and has grown to become such a fine repository of information. What is happening to the editorial crew? Ronald Joe Record (talk) 05:31, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    From Inspiratrix: I have never asked anyone or paid anyone or even hinted around to anyone to edit or create anything on the Wikipedia page about me. On July 15, a few days ago, I put a notice on my Facebook page that the article was being edited back and forth after many years of staying the same.

    There have been small inaccuracies on the page for years, but I let them alone, feeling it's not my place to intervene in any way. I don't even know who wrote the original article. I understand that this is a legitimate subject for Wikipedia editors to discuss and ask about any article on Wikipedia, so I'm certainly not angry about editors bringing up the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspiratrix (talk • contribs) 04:50, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]


    • Someone isn't telling the truth apparently. Skyerise sounds like the subject contacted her but he has now denied that.

    From Inspiratrix: P.S. I'm sure that Skyerise would agree with my account of what happened. Please ask her/him if you like. On July 15, I made a post on my Facebook page saying that after many years, my Wikipedia page was being edited. Skyerise, who had never before commented on my FB page as far as I know, showed up and made some comments under my post, basically saying that the edits that had been made on my page were sensible and in accordance with Wikipedia policy. We then had a brief back and forth. I never asked her/him to take any action at all in editing my Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspiratrix (talk • contribs) 04:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal

    Withdrawn

    User:Doctorfree, who signs as "Ronald Joe Record", is editing disruptively here in this thread, on Rob Brezsny and, especially, on Talk:Rob Brezsny:

    • He WP:Bludgeons the talk page constantly, questioning every edit by every editor except himself
    • He insists on adding information to the article supported by sources that a child would know don't fulfill the requirements of WP:RS
    • His fawning attitude towards the subject of the article - a barely notable horoscope columnist - shows that he is incapable of editing neutrally about the subject
    • His editing and comments border on being WP:Tendentious editing
    • His disdain for community standards hides behind the veneer of a WP:CPOV-pusher

    For these reasons, I propose that Doctorfree, aka "Ronald Joe Record", be topic banned from the article Rob Brezsny.

    Still continued disruption by Mayerroute5 / 116.68.79.209

    The user Mayerroute5 was blocked for a week by CambridgeBayWeather: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Continued disruption by Mayerroute5 Jul 14, since then he continued his disrupting editing as an IP: 2405:204:D287:B4A6:39E7:20E7:B92F:33AA, 116.68.77.209 and 116.68.79.209. It would be not approbiate if his ban ended tomorrow as scheduled and the pages he disrupts I think need to be semiprotected. That are

    --Anaxagoras13 (talk) 10:03, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I'll take a look at the pages and protect them if it's necessary. Anarchyte (work | talk) 10:50, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Protected 2017, 2016, and 2015 as they seem to be the most vandalised. Anarchyte (work | talk) 10:58, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, but please do someone protect 2010 - 2014 as well.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 10:04, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The user is fresh from his ban and continous his editwar where he left!--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    User:QuanticNut

    Diff 1

    Diff 2

    Diff 3

    User:QuanticNut, as their name (and edit history) seems to suggest, is a single-purpose account making disruptive edits (close to breaking WP:3RR) on Detroit: Become Human, which is undergoing a WP:GOODARTICLE review. The edits are without consensus, as stated on the article talk page. In fact, there is a consensus between User:Sebastian James and I not to include the writer in question because, according to the syntax guide, the infobox is for lead writers; Adam Williams did "additional writing", per opening credits. Cognissonance (talk) 00:06, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    This is largely a content dispute and better suited to WP:3RR or WP:3O. If you think it's disruptive editing, you could use the warning templates {{Uw-disruptive1}} in escalating levels, which could result in a block if they continue to edit despite not reaching consensus on their desired edits.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:45, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The guidelines don't rule out anybody but lead writers, they simply rule IN lead writers. We should ask ourselves why anybody would 'disruptively' want to credit the right people... I am active in the detroit community and we all know who the writers were as we've interviewed them together.

    Incidentally I don't see how my username is pertinent to a specific edit, unless you're just playing an ad hominem? Please stick to the facts (QuanticNut (talk) 06:40, 21 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    @CaroleHenson: The editor has made disruptive edits to the point where they broke the three-revert rule and reached level three of your cited template. It is clear these measures are not taken seriously and I would suggest a temporary block. Cognissonance (talk) 08:16, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @CaroleHenson: The same could equally be said of Cognissonance who broke the three revert rule first, by definition... He doesn't want to engage on substance, just keeps undoing a legitimate edit. He has stopped even disputing the substance, and just keeps suggesting that he gets to decide what is on the page not anyone else. (QuanticNut (talk) 08:25, 21 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]
    QuanticNut, It is not equal. You are trying to make edits on your own without consensus and seem to have a vested interest in having this information included in the article. The reasoning for not including the information was given, but you are not listening.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:19, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Is the reason that william is not listed as a lead writer, or that i'm just a guy from a subreddit who isn't 'experienced' enough to make changes? Both were given...

    The guidelines don't say it has to be a lead writer who goes in the writers box. so what's the reason?

    i tried to find consensus by requesting an edit. was ignored (not disputed). moreover, how can you build consensus about a plain fact? he's credited, nobody disputes it. there was also no consensus to revert the original edit.

    I do have a vested interest, I help out on the detroit subreddit where the two writers in question spend hours doing amas and giving us fans the time of day. i've watched them do interviewd all over the world. i wanted to get involved on here as i've gathered alot of knowledge collectively about the production process, creative process etc. i was so amazed at the reception of a valid edit that i couldn't believe it would be upheld... but Cog has made it clear people like me are not welcome editing 'their' page, even if the edit is correct and in the guidelines.

    i can only assume you agree with cog on the substance of the matter? (QuanticNut (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    Actually, no, I don't have an opinion at all about whether the information should be added. But, you are not getting any support to add the information and there is support to not add it. That's the way things work in consensus-based decision making.
    If you have a close connection with the subject, please read conflict of interest. If you want to create content that isn't subject to consensus-based decision-making or COI guidelines, have you thought about a blog?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    A blog? Respectfully, are you aware of the information that I tried to add? It's adding a name to the credits which is in the opening credits and which meets the wikipedia guidelines. It wouldn't make for much of a blog.
    There is support to add it and support to remove it, so no consensus either way. Yet one side gets its views reflected.
    That being said, the issue isn't something you can have an opinion about: someone is listed in the credits and did media all over the world to support the game, but he's missing from the wikipedia page. Ultimately the page and wikipedia suffers, but at least the self-appointed 'owner' of the page gets to win the argument. (QuanticNut (talk) 18:31, 22 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]
    I thought that there was consensus with Sebastian James to not add that information. I don't know 1) why this is so important to you and 2) why it's so important to the two others to not include it, except that I wasn't finding good sources for the added writer. Perhaps that's it. Anyway, this seems like a lot of effort expended for something not that important in the overall scheme of things. Which makes me more confident that your connection is a bit stronger than I first took your assertion.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:37, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Again, respectfully, the the good source is the opening credits of the game. Alternatively a simple google search turns up dozens of articles:

    https://www.vg247.com/2018/04/23/detroit-become-human-lead-writer-quit-tv/ https://blog.eu.playstation.com/2018/05/23/how-detroit-become-humans-narrative-team-brought-a-world-of-androids-to-life/ https://www.dualshockers.com/detroit-become-human-domestic-abuse/

    Incidentally, it's not just this writer - it's two directors who are missing also (mentioned in the 2nd article here).

    It means a lot to me because these people have spent hours engaging with us fans on the subreddit, running competitions, supporting fan art, streaming live from events. Thy are good people and we all like them for how engaged they are (especially Ben Diebling). Adding them was just a first step in many planned contributions I wanted to make but yes, it was an important one for me as these people contributed to the creation of a game that gave satisfaction to a lot of people.

    That is why I am keen to add: the information is correct and it's a matter close to my interests. As to why Cog is so keen to keep it off... you can see on my talk page. He told me that I am just a 'random person from a subreddit' whereas he is an 'experienced editor'. He initially warned me off because he wanted good article status. I would honestly present to you that his motivation is ownership of the page. (QuanticNut (talk) 18:54, 22 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    I have left a note requesting feedback about the article at WT:VG. --Izno (talk) 23:18, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Can I just thank you for this Izno? The debate continues (unbelievably) but, in my opinion, without directing senior editors to the page a new editor (me) would have been scared off wikipedia forever. (QuanticNut (talk) 19:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    Proposal (User:QuanticNut)

    I am not seeing that an administrator has blocked this account, so I am guessing that they do not think that this issue has risen to the level that a block is required and/or it's a case of edit-warring among all the involved parties.

    It is not clear the extent of the close connection between QuanticNut and the Detroit: Become Human article, but there definitely seems to be a vested interest in having content included in the article that is not in synch with the few other editors of the article and is affecting their ability to agree to consensus building. I propose a one-week topic ban of User:QuanticNut as well as requesting clarification of their connection to the article subject.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:43, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Anybody who followed the media of Detroit's promotion and launch, or indeed glanced at the opening credits, would be aware of the information I tried to add and which is sourced in dozens of cited articles. The information is plainly true and meets all guidelines.
    To that extent, my 'closeness' is totally irrelevant, though it is also true I am a Detroit subreddit fan who has engaged with cage and williams on the boards there (which I stated from the beginning). It annoys me to see that plain facts about a game I adore and that means so much to millions of people cannot be recorded because 'a random person from a subreddit' wanted to add it (as I was disparagingly called).
    Does that bother you at all? That wikipedia isn't open to the public anymore? Isn't the whole idea that true and guideline-meeting information can be added by anybody?
    I've given up trying to improve the page, so discipline me away. The page will remain incomplete but at least it will belong to the person who reported me, and whose case you haven't scrutinized at all. But in future, why not discuss the substance of the issue instead of obsessing about process, bans and the exercise of reprimands? (QuanticNut (talk) 18:24, 22 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]
    Your approach to not edit the article works for me. Answers to your questions would mean repeating things I've already said.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:41, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Then there must be an equal vested interest in keeping it off, especially since nobody disputes the correctness of the information. (QuanticNut (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    Why is there no discussion of this on the talk page? As far as I can tell both users have violated 3RR and both should be blocked for edit warring. Seems QuanticNut is trying to add something and there has been no discussion and no good reason not to despite some sources having been provided. Seems more like a case of ownership on Cognissonance's behalf. However still this should be discussed on the talk page for the article, or the article locked from editing. Canterbury Tail talk 19:05, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Canterbury Tail, There was discussion of the edit on the talk page, including this edit, which means that there was tacit consensus between Cognissonance and Wrath X. You're right, it was not clearly discussed on the article talk page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I submitted 2 edit requests some days ago which are on the talk page, along with sources cited. They were closed by Cog without any engagement whatsoever. He then warned me off on my talk page, telling me I was risking his good article status and that I am just a 'random person from a subreddit'. Then he threatened me with a ban. (QuanticNut (talk) 19:09, 22 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    Cognissonance has no ability to ban you, they do not have that editing authority, so put that one out of your mind. I am actually quite concerned with Cognissonance's comments on your talk page. They are failing good faith here and, as you have stated on your talk page, pointed to guidelines that do not say what they said they say. I do think this should still go to the talk page, which I see you have opened a conversation at which is good. Canterbury Tail talk 19:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you for your interventions and for putting my mind at ease. The initial edit request was made on the 7th of July I believe. I have re-opened it but when I have done this in the past, it has simply been closed again with no response. As the article is currently being reviewed for GA status I fear that cog will continue to shut down the conversation, making the talk page ineffective (QuanticNut (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    @Canterbury Tail: QuanticNut said the syntax guide supports his view because of what it doesn't say. You have misrepresented me, saying I disregarded him as "a random subreddit user". I told him, after he said he would bring other subreddit users to the article, "Quality articles (of which there are only a few thousand out of five million) are not edited by random people from a subreddit". This is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. I made Interstellar a Good Article, but only after it was abandoned to the masses, effectively making it a bad article until I showed up. I clearly stated "I do not own Detroit: Become Human, but I have written most of it and vetted all of it", because, since there is no ownership, there better be some credit on Wikipedia. Also, I did not close the edit requests. That was someone else and it was done for lack of consensus, which didn't stop QuanticNut from adding it anyway. Cognissonance (talk) 01:56, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Respectfully, your comments are there for all to see on my talk page. I know you know that you cannot own a page, but at the same time even this comment (which you present as evidence of a sense of ownership) refers to 'the masses' to which articles are 'abandoned'. This id quite denigrating language to refer to the people for whom wikipedia was created.

    Also, the fact you are still fighting this suggests it has become personal for you. The guidelines don't say what you said they said; you can't ban me just for disagreeing with you; I've cited many sources to support my case. Wouldn't it be better to let this go and perhaps we could work TOGETHER to keep improving the page? :) (QuanticNut (talk) 05:23, 23 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    On Wikipedia, the quality of an article is determined by hierarchy. Quantic Dream is a bad article, the result of unregulated editing; CD Projekt is a good article, the result of being checked against quality-based criteria. In cases such as these, the only way to reach a conclusion is to seek consensus on the talk page. Cognissonance (talk) 05:42, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Just to keep this discussion informed @Canterbury Tail:, Cognissonance removed this information once again, this time after the article passed its Good Article review and when debate was still on-going in the talk page [1]. He also deleted all the writers from another videogame article with no comment on their talk page Watch Dogs 2. (QuanticNut (talk) 05:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]

    Ihardlythinkso, AKA IHTS

    On 30 January 2018Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), AKA IHTS was blocked with the listed reason "chronic battleground mentality, misuse of talk page while blocked, topic ban violations, multiple prior blocks have not solved the problem". There are 25 entries in his block log. There are 14 blocks in his block log.[2]

    The battleground mentality and incivility has continued. Examples from the last three days:

    • "Bug off"[3]
    • "There's an editor going out of his way looking for ways he thinks will antagonize me, based on long-term held grudge."[4]
    • "The fact is, it's your continued personal/WP:OR interpretations of same that I've repeatedly objected to, when you're uninformed and wrong. But yeah, the fact "[you] don't care" has been repeatedly demonstrated by you WP:IDHT-style. "[5]
    • "here you go again, mouthing off your own WP:OR re how Pritchard writes (again), when in fact you don't know what you're taking about (again)... I'm sick of shielding from your steady WP:IDHT WP:OR trying to steamroll discussions."[6]
    • "Oh that's very disturbing. With you it's all about mob rule, isn't it. And not quality of argumment."[7]
    • "You dont' know what you're talking about... You, are dishonest here, harassing me once again. Your arguments have to be taken in that context, since you're repeating old arguments already refuted, without new argument, as though you haven't read the thread. You like to start more shit between us whereby I have to ask you to stop badgering me again, after all these years?? Don't pretend none of this is true. You have even documented elsewhere how to harass others and still be under the WP radar of 'policy'. Go blow."[8]
    • "Since you're "into" making assumptions, there's plenty here to guide your assumption-making"[9]
    • "And why aren't you put your xxx where your mouth is, by responding at Talk:Three check chess#Test your mettle? You are oh-so confident here in this thread, but strangely absent from replying Yes or No in that Talk sec. Lacking confidence much?"[10]
    • "Your arguments are all bogus. Plus you're an insulting jackass... You know nothing what you're talking about... What a blowhard in-the-dark argument!... What an argument! Don't make me laugh so hard I throw up. "[11]
    • "If you editors really had confidence in your assertions, instead of OR and bullying, and if you cared about encyclopedic value, then you'll agree with the following:"[12]
    • "Gosh, such a real convincing argument, that! What a joke. You don't know waht you're taking about."[13]
    • "Quit destroying articles."[14]
    • "Your arguments are bull.... You have no idea."[15]

    The above is just from the last three days. He has been doing this for years. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:27, 22 July 2018 (UTC) Modified 13:49, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support indefinite ban! I know I'm jumping the gun here even before IHTS has had a chance to respond. But in my review, I think this is a lost case and a waste of our community time to allow this editor to continue disrupting the project with this kind of mentality – which can be summarized with the statement, "you're an insulting jackass" used by this editor. Enough is... Lourdes 11:09, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • IHTS is frustrating. On one hand, I feel like we should get along as two of the rare people who care at all about chess variants (IHTS is almost certainly the most active editor in that area). If he were banned, I would miss having someone so passionate about the subject on Wikipedia. On the other hand, his tendency to treat other editors badly and turn even minor disagreements toxic is well documented in the AN archives, AE, other noticeboards, talk pages, etc. I don't think I've been part of any of them in the past, and if it were just a matter of IHTS having a problem with me in particular (many of the quotes above were directed at me), I wouldn't be leaving this comment. But it's an awful lot of people -- and untold others that were put off of editing those articles (or from Wikipedia) after accidentally drawing IHTS's ire or seeing it on various talk pages. Ultimately, Wikipedia is not a place where one can reliably work autonomously. Content disputes will come up, and it's necessary to the collaborative process to be able to stick to the content without lashing out at people. If it were just on rare occasion, that would be one thing, but when it's persistent, it creates not just toxic environment, but discourages participation. I'd have a hard time !voting to indef, but certainly wouldn't oppose it -- I just don't know what other lesser approach would have any meaningful effect. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:42, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      Guess what?: I find you frustrating. (But just like at Talk:Three-check chess, just like at CV article, my views count zero, your views must be implemented, right??) --IHTS (talk) 12:16, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • (Non-administrator comment) Let's give Ihardlythinkso a chance to respond, of course, but, pending said response, I'm in favor of a months-long block, say, three months or so; steady escalation of blocks over slapping an indefinite block, in my opinion, properly balances the history of the editor (as a chess enthusiast) with, well, the history of the editor (insofar as the block log and invective is concerned). —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 22:19, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Disclaimer: As I made clear at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive814#Request interaction ban, I am fairly confident that User:Ihardlythinkso, is not a fossorial mammal, is not a Melanocytic nevus, is not made of exactly 6.02214179(30)×1023 atoms, not a massive stone structure between places separated by water, not a sauce used in Mexican cuisine, and is definitely not a Soviet Beriev Be-8 amphibian aircraft. I hope that this clears up any confusion on this matter.

    The following prior interactions with AE, AN and ANI lead me to believe that any sanction that depends on Ihardlythinkso agreeing to behave a certain way and then sticking to that agreement is doomed to failure.

    --Guy Macon (talk) 01:33, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • Huh, I remember the whac-a-mole stuff now but I'd forgotten you and IHTS were the editors involved. His tirades have been going on way too long. Maybe a talk page ban would be the way to go, since that- rather than IHTS's article work- seems to be the problem. If he then starts screeching at people in edit summaries we can rethink. Reyk YO! 07:48, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's a really interesting idea! Other than edit warring (which a 1RR or 2RR restriction would fix) has he ever been disruptive when editing articles as opposed to talk pages? Or maybe a limit of one talk page comment per talk page per 24 hours would be sufficient. On the other hand, I haven't had a lot of success with carefully crafted sanctions designed to keep an editor editing without being disruptive. The admins usually ignore the suggestion and either apply an indef block or decide to wait for further disruption before acting. I can't say that I blame them. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:35, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Without comment on the merits of applying it to the current issue, I have long been a believer that some editors would be better topic-banned from the subject of "other Wikipedia editors (broadly construed)". - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 08:47, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not an option. Collaboration is required. If you ban someone from article talk pages not only can they not collaborate with anyone else, when they get into a content dispute it also means other editors can't possibly resolves it with them. If we have got to the point where banning them from talking to others is considered a solution, then it needs to be a complete ban as that is a core requirement to edit here. Play nice with others. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    We have already reached the point where if another editor gets into a content dispute with Ihardlythinkso they cannot possibly resolve it with him, except by letting him have his way. All you can do is stop editing the page, as I and many others have done with the chess pages. Alas, even that didn't work, because Ihardlythinkso started being disruptive on the reliable sources noticeboard and on an AfD. I like chess. I miss being able to edit the chess pages. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:38, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Tough questions. Can't have the continued personal attacks and angry rambling, but you don't want to lose the content contributions. But I wonder how much good work would get done in chess articles if other people were allowed to edit there. Reyk YO! 10:49, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "I wonder how much good work would get done in chess articles if other people were allowed to edit there." If we're even having to ask ourselves that question, that to me is a clear sign that a topic ban or equitable sanctions are in order. Nobody owns a page.--WaltCip (talk) 10:59, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    A topic ban is unlikely to be effective. His previous topic ban was "Ihardlythinkso is banned from the topic of post-1932 politics of the United States, and closely related people, broadly construed"[16][17] and he couldn't or wouldn't abide by it.[18][19] --Guy Macon (talk) 13:11, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am unaware of the previous blocks of IHTS and the prospect of reading all the associated walls of text is not enticing, but in my experience he has been reasonably amiable and of course has made many useful contributions to chess-related articles. So since he is HTBAE I oppose an indefinite block but he needs to be less combative in discussions as it does seem to be a recurrent problem that is not helpful to anyone. Whether this change is a realistic expectation, I do not know. Hrodvarsson (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    UTRS appeal #20545

    Ihardlythinkso's block log has the following entries:

    • 17:45, 30 January 2018 Floquenbeam changed block settings for Ihardlythinkso with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation blocked, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (chronic battleground mentality, misuse of talk page while blocked, topic ban violations, multiple prior blocks have not solved the problem)
    • 17:52, 30 January 2018 Floquenbeam changed block settings for Ihardlythinkso with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation blocked, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (Additional note to say that the block extension is not AE enforcement; the original 2 week duration, and talk page access removal for those 2 weeks, *are* arbitration enforcement. Any UTRS admin can unblock after 2 weeks without fear of desysop.)
    • 16:30, 11 February 2018 Alex Shih changed block settings for Ihardlythinkso with an expiration time of 13:56, 27 February 2018 (account creation blocked, email disabled) (Reducing the block extension to 2 weeks per UTRS appeal #20545, making this a one-month block. TPA turned back after both UTRS discussion and consultation with blocking administrator)

    Without revealing anything that shouldn't be revealed, could someone please post some sort of indication as to what is in UTRS appeal #20545?

    In particular, was there a commitment on the part of Ihardlythinkso that is inconsistent with the behavior documented elsewhere in this report? It seems to me that "chronic battleground mentality ... multiple prior blocks have not solved the problem) is a good description of his behavior during the three days that I checked.

    @Floquenbeam and Alex Shih:

    --Guy Macon (talk) 13:04, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Guy Macon, the UTRS discussion was mostly about unblock conditions, in which I have posted on their talk page after ([20]). Unfortunately I did not explicitly ask for commitment on their behaviour, partially because I thought it was already implied when they apologised for several instances of their misbehaviour in the incident that led to the indefinite block. I would endorse re-blocking Ihardlythinkso indefinitely. Alex Shih (talk) 13:30, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe this is the last discussion I've had regarding IHTS: [21]. Here were the unblock conditions: [22]. I never saw the UTRS appeal, I just defered to Alex's judgement. I recall being skeptical at the time; IHTS does not interact well with people he disagrees with. His reaction to GoldenRing (who was just enacting a very clear consensus of admins at AE) was typical of almost every interaction he has.
    I'm just responding to the ping, I have not (and will not) looked at IHTS's latest interactions to see what's happening now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:40, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The unblock conditions were:

    1. Please do not violate your current AP2 topic ban again.
    2. No more compiling lists of any kind that could be considered as attack pages, please.
    3. Next topic ban violation would have to be indefinite block (and probably needs public discussion if it was to be appealed).

    Would User:Ihardlythinkso/Headlong to gray goo be considered a list list that could be considered an attack page? (I am not claiming that it is or is not; this is a good-faith question posted because I don't know the answer). --Guy Macon (talk) 07:33, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • "IHTS does not interact well with people he disagrees with. His reaction to GoldenRing (who was just enacting a very clear consensus of admins at AE) was typical of almost every interaction he has." I think this comment by Floquenbeam sums things up very accurately and precisely. IHTS has a clear, pervasive, and very long-term CIR problem which he refuses to correct or modify. No matter how valuable his content work, if he cannot adjust civilly to Wikipedia's collaborative environment, he needs to be shown the door, per WP:CIR. I support a site ban; the indef blocks have not worked because he always weasels his way out of them, and his promises to change are empty. The community has wasted far too much time on his problematical behaviors already. Softlavender (talk) 23:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support site ban or indef - This user has proven time and again that he is unable or unwilling to participate in the project in an acceptable manner. His combative attempt to bargain with Alex an his talk page underscores exactly why removing him from Wikipedia is in our best interest.- MrX 🖋 11:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Stalking my Talk!? Gosh I wonder why! (Not a long-term grudge-holder, for sure.) p.s. Your comment when I correctly stated that words "Latino" and "Hispanic" are neither race nor even ethnicity, as "obtuse" -- I really didn't get that. I thought I was as clear as a person can be. --IHTS (talk) 12:29, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      "Combative attempt to bargain". Not try and say the truth as best I can, and asking consideration for same, right? And Softlavender, not liking to see any past block lifted, says "he always weasels his way out", even she was never witness to any block lift rationale, discussion, or argument. (Both your behaviors are not vindictive-nasty??) --IHTS (talk) 12:48, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      Normally this is the point where I tell you that you need to examine your own behavior and inform you that blaming other people is an ineffective way of avoiding a block, but in this case you are pretty much an expert on what gets you blocked and what gets you unblocked, so In won't bother telling you what has been told to you so many times already.
    That being said, a new user may run across this discussion, so I will say for the new user's benefit that we are each responsible for our own behavior, and that pointing to bad behavior by someone else -- even if it is true -- in no way excuses bad behavior on your part.
    I expect that we will now an example of the Law of holes in action as Ihardlythinkso explains in entertaining detail what an evil and vindictive person I am, but I will be very disappointed if this turns into yet another game of Whac-A-Mole.[23]. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:51, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was impressed favorably by IHTS's handling, in March of this year, of the discussion of how MOS:NICKNAME was to be handled in the lead paragraph of Bobby Fischer. (Now in archive #8 of the talk page.) Moreover, I would have to say, in the two and a half years that I have been editing Chess on Wikipedia, I have never had so much as a difficult moment with this guy. I concur with some other editors that his competence is not at issue -- his edits to chess articles are exemplary, and he edits a lot. Nevertheless, I can see that there is a serious problem; I've watched him get into hot water on several occasions, and it baffles me how quickly it seems to happen. Bruce leverett (talk) 17:06, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support block, not sure how long, but maybe indef. Really starting to think IHTS's name might be better as WP:IDHT... --Tarage (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose indefinite block. Such a block should not be done lightly, and if it is to be imposed, it should be done by ARBCOM, not by the chaotic free for all environment that is ANI. A cool-down block of 2 or 3 days might well have been imposed at the height of the dispute between 19-21 July, but to impose it now would be WP:PUNITIVE. This all stemmed from a content dispute between IHTS and LukeSurl at the page Three-check chess. There were testy exchanges on the Talk page (ok mostly by IHTS) but a compromise was eventually hammered out. Meanwhile LukeSurl had raised the issue at the RSN, leading to Izno nominating the article for deletion (or more likely merging with List of chess variants). This is where Guy Macon became involved, apparently forgetting that he had 5 years ago requested an interaction ban with IHTS. Since then Guy Macon has refused all requests from IHTS to refrain from interacting, and in my opinion has been unnecessarily provocative. He has even used direct personal attacks e.g. [24] "Sorry, but it is difficult to remember every ******* on Wikipedia." - it is a fair assumption that the asterisked 7-letter word here is "asshole" or similar insult, and he has the nerve to link to WP:CIV in the same breath. Referring to someone's block log is also an irrelevant personal attack. The behaviour continued at the Afd, with some unnecessary baiting here, here and here, despite IHTS's stated desire not to interact. In raising the ANI he took a scattergun approach, highlighting threads from several years ago, some of them perfectly reasonable interactions. He also for some reason thought it necessary to publicize the ANI in multiple forums [25] [26] [27]. This is the editor who has been the most strident in pushing for an indefinite block. Rather than jumping on the mob bandwagon, please examine Guy Macon's provocative behaviour. I question his motives in raising this ANI. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 00:42, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree an indef shouldn't be taken lightly, but this is where it typically happens. The community, chaotic as it may sometimes be, does resolve long-term behavioral issues sometimes. It's only if this process fails (repeatedly) that it goes to arbcom. I'd be 98% sure that a case request would just kick it back here, especially since there seems to be a consensus forming that something is necessary. I'd probably be inclined towards a fixed-length long-term block (6m/12m) over an indef or a site ban. Indefinite is not infinite, but practically speaking only in certain cases -- it's hard to find consensus to come back when the block was based on activities over a long period of time. A 6m/12m block would be the last step before site ban, I guess, as it builds in the ability to come back for another chance. I completely disagree with your assertion that this is punitive. I don't think anybody here is supporting a block/ban based just on the recent events, but on a demonstrated pattern over the course of years. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I just don't like how this is being handled at all. Guy Macon repeatedly provoked IHTS, and now he's the one pushing so hard for a site ban. He's bombarding us with the sheer volume of old links, not all of which are valid examples of misconduct on IHTS's part. Why isn't this behaviour being examined? This whole thing just has a nasty smell to it. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "he's the one pushing so hard for a site ban" – There are many editors pushing hard for a site ban/block, and Guy wasn't even the first, I was. "He's bombarding us with the sheer volume of old links, not all of which are valid examples of misconduct on IHTS's part." – Multiple editors have reviewed the links and have reached the same conclusion separately, without being canvassed by Guy; trust their intelligence please. "Why isn't this behaviour being examined?" – You or any interested editor are free to list out links where you can point out Guy's egregious behaviour; I'm not sure you'll find any where Guy is calling other editors encomiums like "jackass" and stuff (and no, "*****" doesn't make the cut; your imagination of what ***** may mean holds no relevance here), but do please list any you find problematic; however, while it may invite strictures against Guy (that is, if such links can be produced), that will not in any way reduce IHTS's culpability. "This whole thing just has a nasty smell to it." – One guess where all the nasty smell started from. Lourdes 19:11, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure you'll find any where Guy is calling other editors encomiums like "jackass" and stuff. Here is one: "go fuck yourself, asshole." on 9 June 2018. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Hrodvarsson, how is this an attack by Guy against IHTS, whose name is not there on the whole archive of the page you link? Perhaps placing ad hominem page links, which have no relevance to the IHTS-Guy Macon story, is not of any benefit. If you want to pull up Guy for general behaviour issues against other editors, I would suggest that you may please go ahead and open a new thread and place your general links there. This thread is about IHTS – and if you want to prove that IHTS' behaviour was exacerbated by Guy's attacks on him, then it'll be good to be relevant. Lourdes 03:14, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Give me a break, it is disingenuous to claim that "Sorry, but it is difficult to remember every ******* on Wikipedia." is not a direct insult. Why would you replace a word with asterisks unless the asterisks were a stand-in for something offensive? It could be "asshole", it could be some other 7-letter insult, but it is definitely an insult. What makes it even worse is that he links to WP:CIV even as he breaks that policy himself. Very hypocritical. I gave several examples of deliberate provocation on Guy's part. Since when has taunting someone over their block log been considered civil behaviour on wikipedia, for example? Knowing IHTS's tendency to lash out, Guy ignored all requests to stop and continued to goad and poke IHTS. (Yes, I know he shouldn't take the WP:BAIT) On the occasion when he didn't take the bait he was taunted with [28] "sound of crickets". Deliberately provoking someone known to be volatile despite requests to stop, then reporting them to ANI and pushing for a site ban, is nasty, vindictive, and system gaming of the worst kind. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 04:59, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Just so you know, I originally wrote "but it is difficult to remember every annoying POV-pusher on Wikipedia", but when I hit the preview button (and keeping in mind how Ihardlythinkso has literally spent years complaining about me once saying "I think we are playing Whac-A-Mole here") (Again, Ihardlythinkso does not consist of 6.02214179(30)×1023 atoms), I replaced it with a random-length string of asterisks. Given MaxBrowne2's claimed ability to read my mind and thus determine with absolute certainty what I really meant based upon how long I held down the repeat key, I am glad that I didn't randomly type **** (or even worse, *************!!) instead of *******. I do invite MaxBrowne2 to list how many times I was uncivil in a recent three-day period or to post my block log, as I did with Ihardlythinkso -- but please keep in mind that my rather small number of blocks was stretched out over 12 years and 40,000 edits.
    While we are at it, Ihardlythinkso's oft-repeated claims that I "pledged no contact years ago" are factually incorrect. Nowhere in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive814#Request interaction ban did I make any such "pledge". The closest I came was saying "I have been avoiding interaction with him ever since". In fact, I clearly stated "I am inclined to close this and come back only if the problem continues". The problem continued, so I came back to WP:ANI as I promised to do. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support indefinite block with a very clear message that indefinite does not mean infinite. I have no doubt that IHTS is a genuine chess expert and a productive chess contributor. Other chess editors attest to that. However, IHTS's repeated combative and extremely insulting behavior is simply not acceptable. IHTS can act like a jackass on Twitter or Reddit or 4Chan but not on Wikipedia anymore. So, IHTS should be blocked and then unblocked only if they make a rock solid personal pledge to abandon battleground behavior on Wikipedia forever. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:34, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Topic ban violations Jzsj

    Jzsj (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from editing, discussing, or mentioning, any articles related to education or schools, broadly construed. They may participate in deletion discussions related to these topics if they created the page(s) in question.

    By now, he has already served two blocks for violating the topic ban. One for 1 "oversight", the second for 42 "oversights". And now, to my opinion he violated the topic ban again:

    1. Margaret Mary Vojtko, an adjunct professor, here (and after a polite warning self reverted)
    2. Gustavo Gutiérrez, a professor, here (6 edits).

    I do not believe any more that these violations are plain "oversights". The Banner talk 11:36, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • (Non-administrator comment) I was going to comment to the effect that the Vojtko edit should probably not be held against them as they retracted it, and the Gutiérrez edits are borderline since an article on someone who holds a professorship but is not known for his educational work. Until I noticed that one of the edits related specifically to his academic work,[29] and I dug a little deeper and noticed this: if it could be called wikilawyering to block the editor for editing articles on people who happen to hold professorships, it would be just as wikilawyer-ish to say that being technically permitted to "participate in deletion discussions" allows them to thank editors for saving the entire content of those articles by copy-pasting them verbatim several months after the deletion discussions in question have been closed. And then there're all these edits whose edit summaries or article titles include "school", "college", etc., and while an argument could be made that the last group was not specifically related to schools the group founded, education is apparently such an integral part of their raison d'être that it's in their name.
    I'm really thinking that at this point the editor probably needs an IDHT/CIR indef block, or a broader TBAN that covers "Christianity" since it's so easy to skirt the boundaries of the current ban by editing articles on religious institutions that are very closely (only?) associated with education but the edits themselves might not technically look like they are related to education.
    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:07, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm editing dozens of articles and sincerely trying to avoid violations of the ban. Please note that it was imposed mainly for my effort to get religious post-nominals accepted in infoboxes. I have learned since then the meaning of consensus in Wikipedia, and I respect that. I was also involved in a dispute over religious organizations and the poverty background of Catholic schools, with some support but little consensus. These are the only places where I have run into problems, all since last January, which I fully intend to avoid in the future. I have over 27,000 edits and over 400 articles created and remaining in Wikipedia. With regard to extending the ban to other related areas, if these are grey areas then why not wait until my editing there results in the kind of dispute that brought on the ban? Jzsj (talk) 13:24, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    No, Jzsj, the topic ban was mainly the result of time and time again ignoring consensus. And every time restarting a discussion when the consensus went against your desire. For example here. The Banner talk 13:51, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • You're citing the one example of where I went against consensus and was banned. The previous discussions had not reached consensus. I have since learned that consensus is determined by administrators very largely on the basis of pro and con votes. Your "time and time again" ignores that none of this took place before last January, when I first encountered these issues after 30 months of work in Wikipedia, 10 to 14 hours most days. I am determined to abide by Wikipedia policies and am sorry for slips, which I will make greater efforts to avoid. I have reverted the ref I added to the Gutiérrez article; you're correct about it dealing with schools. I would be a fool to deliberately touch school issues, even if I was not being so carefully watched. (Also, please reference what you mean by 42 "oversights" in your opening statement.) Jzsj (talk) 14:10, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    A kinder, and truer, interpretation of this was the one given there, leading to a reasonable, 72 hour block: "Thanks for reminding me, it was an oversight. I began just correcting the links to sisters, and got into the schools inadvertently." It was a single incident, on a single oversight, on a single day when I added the "Sister" link in 81 articles and regrettably strayed into the sisters at the schools in the sisters category. Jzsj (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • As to the "Wikilawyering" charge, I haven't dealt with that issue before, but when I looked up relevant material, this is all I found. Where does it say that I shouldn't thank an editor who on his/her own "merged" (not "saving the entire content") an article and mentioning that there are other articles of mine where this recommended merging was not carried out at the time of deletion. Jzsj (talk) 17:20, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure how you conclude that I may not edit articles like all these edits, where the names of the groups do not mention schools, and where I was careful to avoid touching parts of their work related to education. Give me some credit! Jzsj (talk) 17:40, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I found no relation to education in the first and third examples. In the middle one I deliberately avoided touching on the work Fr. Garcia did in education. But you are right, that in one (and only one) of the four edits in the section on education the reference I added was to his being on the board of a social research institute, which was indeed an oversight on my part. I will try harder to note the verboten nature of such edits. All the trouble both of us are going through in this discourse here will have the salutary effect of bringing to my mind the matter of the ban while editing. Jzsj (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • You clearly do not understand what the meaning of your topic ban is in reality. To try to explain it one more time: you are not allowed to touch articles that are related to education or schools. This includes teachers, professors, buildings etc., no matter how remote related to education. The Banner talk 10:22, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Cyberpower678: Please give us your decision on this. It seems to me that if one looks into the material behind the ban (acting against consensus on post-nominals) then such further generalization of it is unnecessary, especially in light of the fact that I had made c. 25,000 edits and this dispute at NDCRHS is the only time I ran into this problem, and learned from it. My present editings try to respect the ban. Please clarify the ban in this regard. Thanks, Jzsj (talk) 10:53, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      My interpretation of the ban, as per the "broadly construed", is that any article remotely related to education or covering education is within the scope of the ban. However, articles not primarily about education, universities, and similar topics, and are at best a few sentences in articles mentioning the topic, should not be including in the ban's scope.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 03:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Propose indef block

    NOT HAPPENING
    Clearly not going to pass.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 03:35, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Sigh This is unfortunate to see. Clearly this editor is either unwilling to or incapable of staying far the hell away from education-related edits. Rather than trying to engineer a much broader TBAN to keep him as far away from the parts of the encyclopedia he's not supposed to be editing as possible, an indef block is in order. I would say escalating blocks (he's only been blocked for violating this ban twice so far, the latest for 72 hours), but he doesn't show the slightest sign of being willing to abide by the ban, so the escalating blocks so far have not been doing their job. If you are not going to appeal your ban, you have to abide by it; them's the rules. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:55, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • Support as proposer. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:55, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I’ve stayed out of this until now, but I really do think it is entirely reasonable to make a distinction about biographies of academics and “education”. An article on a theologian and another about a decreased adjunct professor (where he self-reverted) are a bit beyond broadly construed for me, and I’d personally question if this is even a TBAN vio: if this sanction applied to me, I would not consider edits to an article on a theologian to be a TBAN, and would likely consider them well within what I could edit to the point where I wouldn’t seek clarification. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:21, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @TonyBallioni: I would agree with you, as I said near the top of this thread, but everything we say before "but" is horse-shit, and one of the edits he didn't self-revert and apologize for was to amend and add a citation to the sentence Gutiérrez is a member of the Peruvian Academy of Language, and a founder of the Bartolomé de las Casas Institute. That's not a reasonable distinction between a biography of an academic and "education"; it falls so squarely into the area covered by the ban (editing, discussing, or mentioning, any articles related to education or schools, broadly construed) that it would even fall under it if the ban was from "editing articles related to schools, narrowly construed". Also I should clarify that I have not looked into any of the background here related to the imposition of the ban or the original reasoning for it, and have only been looking at the ban as it exists and how it might relate to the recent edits; if, as may well be the case, the subject feels, rightly or wrongly, that he was subjected to an unfair and unreasonably broad ban, I sympathize (and Tony -- you know how much I sympathize), but such editors need to appeal through the normal processes, not try to find ways they can get around the ban and pretend it doesn't exist. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:44, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t consider that to be a TBAN violation, sorry. This could be because I view academics (including theologians) more as researchers than educators, but by this standard we’d be considering any edit to Daniel Dennett and Thomas Aquinas to be TBAN vios because they are/were both professors. Also add literally every MD at an academic medical centre who has never taught a day in their life but who holds the courtesy title of assistant professor (this is a common practice in the United States.) If we are considering every academic biography oder everyone with academic honours or titles part of this TBAN then it might be the worst sanction I’ve seen on this website. A priest who was a liberation theologian who happens to hold academic appointments is pretty clearly outside the intent of the TBAN. It doesn’t appear either biography was about an academic who’s field of research was education. The former was a French professor and the latter is a significant figure in Liberation theology, one of the most significant theological schools of the 20th century. Neither of their fields of study are/were education. I’m sorry if it seems like I’m splitting hairs here, but to me this is an absolute no-brainer for “clearly allowed edits.” TonyBallioni (talk) 06:09, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Your opinion is definitely at odds with the topic ban topic banned from editing, discussing, or mentioning, any articles related to education or schools, broadly construed and the classic phrase when in doubt, do not edit. And it is in fact rewarding his skirting of the topic ban by narrowing his ban, something what was turned down only on the 19th of this month (see WP:AN). The Banner talk 06:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, I have never tried to skirt the ban, and that is why I made a proposal, to allow me to restore deleted material to its source: I respected the ban and proposed a narrowing of it for a specific purpose. I accept the fact that the scope of the ban has not been narrowed. Jzsj (talk) 09:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no narrowing. Editing articles on the universities themselves is out of limits. Editing articles on academics who have primary fields other than education is not. The wideness you are attributing to this TBAN is far beyond what is reasonable to broadly construe. Especially in the case of the theologian, reading the topic ban this way would have the impact of functionally banning him from a significant number of articles on figures in the Catholic Church (Benedict XVI was a professor, and notable for being one, Alasdair MacIntyre is a moral philosopher who holds professorships, etc.) The TBAN was not a ban on editing about scholars. It was a ban on editing about education. People who happen to work at a higher education institution but focus on other fields are not within it. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as I know, professors are involved in education. The Banner talk 14:56, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Contrary to what you surmise, @Hijiri88:, I have never felt that I "was subjected to an unfair and unreasonably broad ban" and Tony is correct, I am trying to carry on work that at times led to overstepping the line without being aware of it. I have promised to be more alert as I edit. I just gave up copy editing Nguyễn Trường Tộ because, as a diplomat, he got into buying books and encouraging Western education in Vietnam. I think you should weigh the loss if I ceased copy editing these articles, against the damage from the few innocent oversights which I promise to try harder to avoid in the future. I had found an obvious pleonasm in the Tộ article (However, but) yet I left it and abandoned copy editing this article lest I slip into an edit dealing with "education or schools, broadly construed". And this was before I came here and found this new proposal. I insist that it would be a very unfair judgment on my actions, and without any evidence to prove it, if one would surmise that I was trying "to find ways they can get around the ban and pretend it doesn't exist". This is blatantly false. Jzsj (talk) 08:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's a thought. When in ANY doubt, don't. If it even SOUNDS like it could be related IN ANY WAY to education, don't make the edit. Period. Hell, if the page has the word "education" on it, don't fucking edit. Don't edit if it has the word "learn" in it. Stay the fuck away from it. It's not THAT hard. --Tarage (talk) 09:04, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm dealing with a church and with abbeys and with people all the time, and they do get involved in education. Unless the ban is extended to all things Catholic I propose to keep editing these articles, with greater care to avoid all things educational. The fact that I've edited so many article with education mentioned somewhere within them and had so few slips shows that I am trying. I have promised to redouble my efforts at avoiding the few verifiable slips that have turned up here. Jzsj (talk) 09:40, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    the few verifiable slips... Ow, goodie. You have been blocked twice for a total of 43 slips. And I have entered two more slips but when I read the discussion, there are many more. Are you kidding with "just a few slips"? The Banner talk 13:54, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you look carefully and count you will find that most of those "many more" are charges that turn out false or questionable. And I can hope that others will see as one slip my 42 quick edits on a part of one day, when I was editing sisters and religious congregations and slipped into linking their names in schools articles (to the article on Religious sisters that I had newly produced). I had reached those articles through the category congregations of sisters and for a small part of my long editing in that category slipped in to the articles on schools listed there. I avoided their names in schools articles after that, and am now avoiding schools as I copy edit articles recommended by the Catholic Project. Jzsj (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support You have to be some sort of thick not to understand that editing a section called "Emphasis on education" IS related to education and thus falls under the topic ban. But really, we shouldn't even be voting. Any admin could step in and enforce the damn topic ban. Why none have is a mystery to me. --Tarage (talk) 09:02, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't see it as obvious that we must go by the title of a section that discusses various issues, and we are tending to the issues that do not pertain to education. But I'll know to be more attentive in the future to the titles of sections, when I am editing matter that is not related to education. Jzsj (talk) 09:14, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Phrase used in sanctions. Roughly translated, it means "We can't really explain what you're restricted from doing, but we'll know it when we block you for doing it." as the hilarious but often deeply wise Wikipedia:WikiSpeak defines this. I see no reason for such a drastic measure to be enacted at this stage. I would agree that any level of "disruption" so far perceived from this colleague in no way merits such a draconian step. Irondome (talk) 02:42, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Ligma, etc

    Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but many VOAs (now blocked) have been inserting vandalism talking about how the fortnight player "Ninja" just died of the fictitious disease "ligma", especially at the Celebrity article, which has now been protected.

    I thought this might be over, but this diff [30]makes me question that (look on urban dictionary, 4th answer down, [31] bofa has to do with ligma). Tornado chaser (talk) 22:36, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    And I thought we hit peak Deez Nuts in 2016. RickinBaltimore (talk) 00:01, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s a joke. pewdiepie made a video where he made a joke about Ninja catching “ligma”, so his fans are now trying to goof on us. It’ll die in a week, whatever.💵Money💵emoji💵💸 00:18, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    And then there's the numerous ones who made their guest appearances when reported at AIV. Do a user Contributions name search under Deez and Deeez and Deeeez and Deeeeez. Just keep adding an "e" to the name in the search, and more names pop up. Some of the edits never made it past the filters, but they had fun. Perhaps not all went thru AIV. Must be a lot of people out there who think this is the funniest thing they ever saw, or thought of. — Maile (talk) 00:24, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Money emoji: Ah. I suspected this was something like the Todd Howard incident that happened a few months ago. SemiHypercube ✎ 00:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I feel like every time a youtuber encourages wiki vandalism their own article should be made worse. --Tarage (talk) 03:17, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    @Tarage: to be fair, he doesn’t actually ask his viewers to vandalize the article in the video, they did it themselves... also ligma=lick my balls, so dont y’all fall for it.💵Money💵emoji💵💸 05:10, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    He should know better. --Tarage (talk) 05:53, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I watched the video (funny skit about how to insult people on Roblox). He doesn't mention Wikipedia, let alone encourage vandalism. Kleuske (talk) 12:56, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I just deleted Draft:Ligma. If this doesn't die down soon, an edit filter might be potentially useful. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I was thinking the same thing, I reported a few ligma vandals today. Tornado chaser (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It's still happening as of now. SemiHypercube ✎ 22:09, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup, I just reported Da G0od sUcC. L293D (☎ • ✎) 22:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    User Miska5DT

    User:Miska5DT keeps blanking, doing disruptive editing, and removing contents from articles Societat Civil Catalana, Somatemps, Javier Barraycoa, Josep Alsina and Catalan independence movement. Then he adds an AfD deletion template to Somatemps and after blanking the article states in the deletion discussion that there is not a single reference in the sources about the matter. Filiprino (talk) 11:38, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Filiprino Somatemps has been nominated for deletion, there is nothing wrong with that. Its non-notable and no credible source discusses it. I am extremely concerned about your creation of an article about Catalan academic Josep Alsina in which you call him a Nazi without a credible source. Mr. Alsina is not a nazi he is an academic you dislike. Wikipedia is extremely strict about slandering living persons and you cannot use the platform to attack people you oppose politically. Equally, the article you created about Javier Barraycoa is dedicated solely to disparage his books which you dislike. Finally your recent nomination for deletion of Tabarnia, an entry which literally has hundreds of credible sources discussing it in various languages, shows you are not editing wikipedia in good faith and are here for spurious reasons. I really think this is a boomerang situation which requires admin attention. Particularly regarding Mr. Alsina who should be alerted of this online slander. I will contact him personally ASAP so he is aware of the situation. Miska5DT (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I want to recall you that this discussion is not to attack my articles nor myself but to defend yourself. Filiprino (talk) 11:53, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Filiprino: When you start a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard, all sides of the issue in question are looked it. In many cases, that means the reporting editor's edits will be scrutinized. (See the essay WP:BOOMERANG.) Further, you complain that he removed content from an article; he replied that he removed it to comply with WP:BLP because you added material in violation of that policy. In that regard, Miska5DT's comments are appropriate (with the exception of taking this offline and contacting the subject of an article directly). —C.Fred (talk) 11:59, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I am aware that my edits will be scrutinised. And you won't find any of the violations he reports. Thanks for your attention. Filiprino (talk) 12:09, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @C.Fred: I want to note that the user is now blanking and removing sourced content from the article Sardana. Diffs: [32] [33]. He claims it is not in the source, but it is. It's not in the quotation, but that's all. The source is an article from JSTOR with 59 references. It's a known peer-reviewed paper from Stanley Brandes. I was now going to add information from [34] (2015) but the user blanked the whole Wikipedia article. Filiprino (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Filiprino, (also pinging C.Fred) I note from your talk page you are in extremely problematic editor pushing a hyper nationalistic line, this is why I had a look through your recent edit history. Sardana is a traditional dance of Catalonia which, incidentally my mother was made to learn during the Francoist dictatorship. The rather sinister far-right, xenophobic edit you have included in what should be a nice, normal article about a fricking dance is the following:
    Immigration is also a concern for Catalans due to possible cultural loss. Andalusian immigration in the mid-19th and mid-20th centuries introduced the Andalusian feria de abril and flamenco dancing. It has been perceived by some as a manipulated instrument of Spanish state domination. In fact, learning sardana can be considered a way of expressing solidarity with Catalans. Catalans consider that sardana has to be defended against possible incursions by the dominant Castilian culture. Failing to adopt Catalan culture might cause it to disappear, effectively annihilating Catalan people.
    Filiprino, I am not even going to comment. Miska5DT (talk) 12:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Filiprino: "my articles" ? No one owns any articles here. - FlightTime (open channel) 13:02, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @FlightTime: Where I wrote articles I wanted to write edits. Filiprino (talk) 13:13, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment:Both users have edit warred extensively in articles related to Catalonia, including over deletion templates. I think they've both offered valid critiques in places, but they have also both lain it on way to thick when citing criticisms. The Josep Alsina article is a good example: it's fair to describe him as far right, but it's probably not fair to create an entry on him primarily to detail that connection. I sympathize on some level with Filiprino's apparent frustration, but I think they might benefit from taking a step back from Catalonia issues and edit other areas for a time and/or working on writing for the opponent. I would offer the same advise to Miska5DT, but they've been blocked for sockpuppetry, making it kind of a moot point. Nblund talk 17:41, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Process question on admin undelete/delete

    KAVEBEAR made a request on my user page that I restore one of his user space pages that had previously been deleted at the user's own request. I made the undeletion. RHaworth immediately deleted the page again with an edit summary saying the request needs to go through WP:REFUND. My question is why is this such a hard and fast rule (if it is)? We may have various process boards, but users make requests directly to admins all the time. And admins may elect to take care of the request or not. Why this one? It was the user's own page. — Maile (talk) 12:08, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    That seems to be the standard summary for G7 deletion, not specific to undeletion. Could it be that the restored page was blank or had a deletion template on it? Peter James (talk) 12:24, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks like the page that was deleted on February 21, 2017, was done so because the user himself placed a G7 template in the See Also section. I prefer not to engage in a Wheel War, but could we just get the July 3, 2016 version restored for the user? The user himself just wants his page restored. Please advise. — Maile (talk) 12:42, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    RHaworth almost certainly deleted it because it appeared in the CSD category. If it was restored again and the tag was removed then I'm sure nobody else would redelete it. —Xezbeth (talk) 12:52, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    All right. I restored the correct version, with an edit summary link to this thread. Not trying to wheel war. Just trying to get it correct. If I erred, please advise. — Maile (talk) 13:14, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Per above. Maybe RHaworth should have checked page history (this doesn't always happen), or maybe Maile66 should have checked the CSD tag left intact (although it was buried in the content instead of being on top; I probably would have missed it myself)... In either case it was a good faith miscommunication, no wheel warning and no harm done. Alex Shih (talk) 13:42, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Page history wouldn't have helped since the tag wasn't removed; you'd have to check the logs. Userpages get G7'd all the time so it's understandable that it wouldn't be noticed. —Xezbeth (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree. I have been scolded a couple times for not checking page history when patrolling CSD; if I have checked the page history for this one (User:KAVEBEAR/Kepelino), I would have done a double take when I saw the date "02:21, 21 February 2017". Userpages get G7'd all the time, but it doesn't get unnoticed until a year and half later especially for someone that works tirelessly (that's the catch) almost daily in CSD. Alex Shih (talk) 14:00, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    If you don't check the history, how do you know if the user placed the tag themself? Natureium (talk) 15:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I would say both history and logs are equally valuable. If an admin clicks on the red link, it brings up the logs, which tells you who nominated it for deletion, who deleted it, undeleted it, how many times it's been deleted or undeleted, or any other pertinent logs. If you click on the more current view/restore link, it brings up the Page History. There might be something in that history that tells you if there is anything to indicate the delete nomination was in error. — Maile (talk) 17:54, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Unless I've misunderstood something, I don't see how logs will tell you whether the author is the one who nominated it for deletion. E.g. [35]. I'm discounting someone noting it in the logs e.g. when deleting it, that this is what happened. It presumes whoever it is checked the history (so someone needed to) and obviously doesn't apply to the first deletion. BTW, in case there is some confusion, I think Natureium's point which also occurred to me is that it seems an admin should always be checking the page history before carrying out a G7 or alternatively relying on someone or thing they trust e.g. a bot to do it for them. Otherwise I could G7 tag this page and ignoring the fact that an admin should recognise without checking I'm not the only author of ANI, an admin would just G7 it. For a U1, a check of the specific diff where it was U1nd should be sufficient. (Well there is a minor risk there that someone else could revert to a previously placed U1, but probably too minor to worry too much about.) Of course checking the history for these details doesn't guarantee you will always notice the time frames. Nil Einne (talk) 20:07, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Ju Ming and Zhu Ming

    The article, a target of extensive efforts to cannibalize it on behalf of the unrelated Zhu, has been protected for two weeks--thank you, Widr. A few concerns can be addressed in the interim (one expects the vandalism will resume next month). First, the bio can use some clean up of unsourced and promotional content. But there's also been lots of peripheral damage, where Mr. Zhu's name has been added to maybe dozens of other articles; I've removed it from about ten. More eyes welcome in addressing this mass disruption. 2601:188:180:11F0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 15:55, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    This will needs quite a lot of watching. The account which first tried to turn this into Zhu Ming is User:Wirterss, an indef-blocked sockmaster. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wirterss. He's also indef blocked on the Dutch Wikipedia for repeated cross-wiki attempts to spam Zhu Ming [36]. His Draft:Zhu Ming（thinker） is up for deletion. His IP socks have been variously blocked at WikiQuote for repeated spamming [37] and one of them has been at it at Commons too. I don't imagine he'll give up easily. Voceditenore (talk) 15:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Miss HollyJ brought up inappropriate comments/personally attacked in ANEW discussion

    User:Miss HollyJ was put on the ANEW after they edit warred ~5 times (down below). The result was stale because "no further issues arose" (with edit warring). Inside the discussion the user said that "I shouldn't be calling for unjustified bans" and then brought up the fact that I've have "numerous blocks" and then displayed them all. The user later claimed that I "don't have any credibility" and that I made "baseless smears" and "lies". I never did any of that. My original comment on the discussion was civil. I do believe the user did personally attack me as they brought up accusations about my personal behaviour without evidence. Also, on the user's talk page they are telling others that they have "no authority to leave messages on their page and that they are violating policies. Tagging @TheDoctorWho:, as they were the original nominator on ANEW.
    Diffs of the user's reverts:

    1. 21:54, 22 July 2018‎
    2. 00:39, 23 July 2018‎
    3. 00:48, 23 July 2018‎
    4. 00:53, 23 July 2018‎
    5. The following revert was a partial revert completed in three parts:
      1. 03:27, 23 July 2018‎
      2. 03:31, 23 July 2018‎
      3. 03:32, 23 July 2018‎

    Computer40 «»(talk) 01:33, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    1) The edit warring issue has been resolved. I took the administrators (@EdJohnston: and @Black Kite:) deal without issue. So I don't understand why you had to copy and paste what @TheDoctorWho: originally said onto this post. 2) You literally made up lies about me and I called out every single one. How is that personally attacking you? It's clear this has now escalated into a personal vendetta against me to get me blocked because the previous discussion didn't result in that. 3) Yes, I was wrong to tell that user to not leave that template on my talk page. That was my mistake and I own up to it. 4) All I did was bring up the fact that you are a user known to make disruptive edits and receive blocks which is a fact. 5) And finally, no, you originally were not civil because you inappropriately accused me, without proof, of holding some sort of "personal grudge" when me and you have never even interacted before this.
    1. [38]
    2. [39]
    3. [40]
    4. [41]
    5. [42]
    6. [43]

    Miss HollyJ (talk) 02:49, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I think Hawkeye75, aka Computer40 has about used up all available rope. A look at the user's talk page shows clearly that the promises made in his unban request a little over a month ago were empty. It's time to realize a mistake was made and reimpose the site ban. John from Idegon (talk) 04:18, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Please don't make comments unrelated to this noticeboard section here. You are creating a problem out of nothing. I've already changed my signature. Plus, you were one of the only people that opposed my unblock, so it's clear you're not going to change you're opinion on me. Computer40 «»(talk) 05:08, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I wouldn't say you took the administrators deal without issue. Rather that you decided to argue with an admin and only when that very admin inquired if you were declining the deal did you agree to "Wait for consensus" (See diffs below).

    For the record, i don't care what WP:Boomerang says. Unless it's an official Wikipedia policy (Which it is not) then i will not be following it in regards to this ANI report (Or any ANI report). My focus is solely on you and only you.

    • Discussion between Miss HollyJ and EdJohnston:

    1. [44]

    2. [45]

    3. [46]

    4. [47]

    • Statement by Miss HollyJ regarding the reliability of two sources (Only after TheDoctorWho reverted your edit did you clarify in the edit summary that you were referring to recaps which i'm going to go off on a limb here and say this was a misunderstanding):

    1. [48]

    2. [49]

    In your defence, the TMZ article you mentioned "only listed the personal opinion of one former houseguest, Devin." which is hardly what i'd call a reliable source.

    Regarding the diffs you provided about Computer40, those diffs are utterly stale as they were made in 2017 and 2016.

    As for Computer40s insinuation that "This user clearly had some kind of personal grudge against the paragraph that they kept on reverting", i wouldn't say there was ever a personal grudge involved.

    Be that as it may, you should have refrained from reverting after the third revert rather than breaking the 3RR rule.

    • One last thing

    Regarding John from Idegon's reply, i see the unban request was indeed over a month ago (May 28th 2018) but do not believe it applies in the here and now nor would a site ban be warranted in my opinion. AryaTargaryen (talk) 05:02, 24 July 2018 (UTC)AryaTargaryen[reply]

    A couple of points:
    • Reply to the above statement: @AryaTargaryen: I don't recall saying that Miss HollyJ had a personal grudge against it? (If I did please point it out to me)
    • Computer40's previous blocks: I don't believe those hold any point or argument here whatsoever. This thread is about supposedly inappropriate comments made by Miss HollyJ an WP:ANEW report.
    • The ANEW thread I personally disagree with the closure by Black Kite based on "no further issues have arisen". The reason no further issues had arisen was because there was an ongoing thread. Without the ANEW thread I believe the issues could've continued mainly because Miss HollyJ still preformed another revert following a warning and discussion on their talk page.
    • Where to go from here: Miss HollyJ has begun a discussion on the article talk page. However, I believe a large portion of reasoning Miss HollyJ provided is irrelevant and completely violates WP:OTHERSTUFF:
    • We don't do it for the Survivor articles, we shouldn't do it here either.
    • Something as tame as Rockstar saying "On my daughters birthday" is nowhere near the levels of controversy regarding the comments Angela, Rachel, JC and Kaitlyn have made.
    • If you ask me it looks ridiculous being listed next to something as serious as the JC-Bayleigh debacle.
    • Brett was not a victim like Bayleigh was and we should stop treating it as such.
    • It's actually insulting to actual victims of racism to think someone calling a white man "rich, snobby, white-privileged ass dude" is anywhere near the severity of being called the n word or other derogatory slurs.
    all the above content violates WP:OTHERSTUFF by comparing what is in one paragraph to another. I believe that OTHERSTUFF could be used to some extent in some discussion only as a supplement to another point but to base your entire argument solely on it is invalid. Therefore I believe that this could use further discussion but NOT based on Miss HollyJ's original points.
    • Personal attack or not?: The point that covers this in WP:PA reads as follows: Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki.
    • Why I'm bringing this up?: I believe that Computer40's original statement of Miss HollyJ having a "personal grudge" is not invalid because Computer40 provided diffs to why they believed that statement. But I also believe that the information is irrelevant as the point weather they had a personal grudge was not important it's that they violated WP:3RR.
    • Miss HollyJ's response: I also don't think you should be calling for unjustified bans given your reputation on Wikipedia. You've been blocked times. I still believe this information is irrelevant as that discussion was about Miss HollyJ violating WP:3RR and should be considered irrelevant here as well.
    • My overall point: Computer40 made a point to Miss HollyJ who took offense to the point and made a response back to Computer40 which took offense. Don't shoot yourself in the foot
    What should happen now?: This report should be closed without prejudice to both sides pending discussion on the article's talk page. If Miss HollyJ edit wars again prior to a consensus being formed they can be reported to an administrator and blocked as they've been warned by multiple editors. Computer40 should be advised that if they make such accusations either with or without evidence that the editor Computer40 accused is likely to come back with a strong response and that Computer40 shouldn't come down like a ton of bricks.
    In short: We should all drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass on any of the ANI/ANEW reports so far and if Miss HollyJ edit wars again or if Computer40 and/or Miss HollyJ supposedly attack each other again new reports can be filed without prejudice to the recent ANI/ANEW reports. TheDoctorWho (talk) 06:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Pinging people who might wish to comment @Alucard 16 and OfficerAPC:. TheDoctorWho (talk) 06:26, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Attack wise, I don't think saying that someone has a "grudge" is on the same level as telling someone they have "no credibility" and that they made "lies", but I assume the consensus is nominator close. Computer40 «»(talk) 07:10, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I looked back over the comment i posted and seem to have included your name by mistake since it was only Computer40 that made that statement. I've struck your name from my original comment.

    Thanks for pointing that out AryaTargaryen (talk) 06:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)AryaTargaryen[reply]

    @AryaTargaryen: Thank you just wanted to clarify. TheDoctorWho (talk) 06:34, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    This is the second time we had to call out Miss HollyJ for edit warring without discussing. Therefore it's strike two and one more, she'll be "out". As a rule of thumb, in the event of a dispute, discuss it on the talk page. OfficerAPC (talk) 11:15, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment from the peanut gallery. You people are horrible at indenting. Trying to read this entire section and figure out who is replying to what is an exercise in futility. Please don't make another horribly formatted report like this again if you want something to actually be accomplished. --Tarage (talk) 18:14, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    •  
            • Seems clear enough to me.
    EEng 06:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Tarage, you are horrible at providing constructive criticism. Try explaining how to do things properly. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Raghu Acharya vandalism needs rangeblock

    A childish vandal has been disrupting various articles, often inserting the name "Raghu Vir Acharya"[50] or "R. Acharya"[51] into the text. The disruption has been going on for more than three years.[52] A couple of times the person has used Saint Paul [Minnesota] Public Library IP 156.99.40.14,[53][54] but far more often the IPs are 174.255.0.0/20. Can we get one or more rangeblocks without too much collateral damage? Recently active IPs are listed below. Binksternet (talk) 08:17, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Respectfully disagree. Outside of one or two very minor copy edits, I see nothing useful aside from the unsourced-and-therefore-dubious claim here. This vandal has been reverted, warned, and had individual IP's briefly blocked over a long period of time. An edit filter looking for "Raghu" or "Acharya" would stop many of these edits, but not others, such as [55], [56], [57]. I support a rangeblock of 174.255.0.0/20, with the expectation that it would need to be renewed until vandal becomes discouraged. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 02:18, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    help needed

    Taken care of by DoRD--Ymblanter (talk) 14:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, JBW blocked the range before I redundantly semi'd the page. —DoRD (talk)​ 14:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Could an admin block the IPs that are harassing User talk:Tyw7 (and maybe protect the page)? L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:26, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    It seems to be settled for now. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:18, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    WP:NOTHERE

    Page deleted, salted for two years; user blocked. (non-admin closure) -★- PlyrStar93 →Message me. ← 17:22, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Papahawwy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Not a single edit that's not promoting "Papahawwy". Prank or manic selfpromotion, either way they're not here to help build the encyclopedia. Kleuske (talk) 14:00, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    POV pushing IP at Ben Swann

    (non-admin closure) Closing this to say what everyone here assuredly already knows: this is now a question of content, and should be dealt with on the article talk page and not here. The behavioral issue has been dealt with by admins via block and protection, and SoV doesn't seem to be inclined to up the protection to full. If full protection is still desired, that's why we have WP:RFPP. Any non-participant who feels that I closed this prematurely is welcome to re-open it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    There's an IP who's been on a crusade to whitewash a notable conspiracy theorist for the past few weeks. Despite encountering significant pushback with very little support for their position, they've kept it, up, bludgeoning the talk page with wikilawyering and repeated claims that we're using sources that make false claims about the subject without evidence. This has been going on for too long, and needs to stop. There's no consensus for any changes to the article at best, and a consensus not to change for the majority of the IP's proposals. The IP has been made aware of DS, has been warned numerous times, and has even been blocked once already. The IP has since gained some support on one point, and as a result, redoubled their efforts. Can an admin please put a stop to this?

    A lot of this is in fact, hyperbolic. And much of it is inaccurate. I welcome anybody to check out the talk page and the edit history to see for themselves. The edit warring he highlights was among my very first edits when I was unfamiliar with a lot of the rules. I haven't repeated such behavior since then, however, I was able to clear up factually incorrect information from that exchange. All my edits have been from a NPOV and are consistent with the cited sources. I've tried to remove and modify poorly sourced contentious (and frankly false) claims about Ben because that is mandated by WP Policy. There are a few editors over there that seem hell-bent on discrediting Ben Swann and keep injecting their opinions and exaggerating what the soures say. despite many efforts (not just by me), the inflammatory claims and BLP violations continue and they have been actually getting worse since I first saw the page. --74.195.159.155 (talk) 14:25, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Indef PC added. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    SarekOfVulcan, I understand your imposition of PC but I think in this case full prot is more appropriate. The IP has been POV pushing against MjolnirPants and Jytdog, who I hate to say (since I agree with them 90% of the time) have been equally POV pushing, if not more. I have sided with some (but not all) of the IP's edits that actually appear to be enforcing BLP. In particular, we have a talk page dispute over whether it's verifiable that Swann has repeatedly spread fake news. This certainly appears to me to lack appropriate sourcing. By imposing PC you're inadvertently allowing the BLP violations to stand. I suggest full prot to the last stable version, which I believe is this. I'm also disappointed MjolnirPants didn't notify me of this AN report when I was already actively involved in the dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:16, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    PS please don't take this as a request for a boomerang; MjolnirPants is an excellent editor who I believe has had a momentary lapse of reason. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It's possible that full prot might have been a better choice, but I went with the option I believed would permit the most flexibility for all concerned. If another admin wants to up the protection level, that's fine -- but per WP:THEWRONGVERSION, I would oppose trying to choose a "stable version" at this time. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I thought we always rollback to the last stable version when we impose full prot? The version I identified was last edited by Jytdog and I believe those edits have not been challenged. However if we wanted to rollback to an even older version that's fully stable, I suppose that would be this one. It would certainly be better than the existing BLP violations. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:25, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    While WP:PREFER does urge finding a stable, non-BLP-violating version, I don't see anything that particularly fits that description. It hasn't been stable for more than about a month at any point in the past 2 years that I can see.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:34, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The content about Swann spreading fake news was originally added to the lead (as far as I can tell) here, back in June. It has moved around some. I adjusted that yesterday. Jytdog (talk) 17:29, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh please. In that same comment I said there are still serious problems. I could make similar below-the-belt comments about your behavior, but I choose not to because I think you're a fine editor. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:30, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    And those serious problems boil down to you taking issue with us not directly quoting the sources. So we should call Swann an "imbecile" and his work "boneheaded and irresponsible" because that would correct the BLP problems? Seriously? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:45, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Request for full prot

    The BLP problems were somewhat ameliorated by Jytdog's edit and not as blatant anymore. I still think that imposition of PC ended up tipping the balance of a content dispute where there has been POV pushing on both sides, and full prot is warranted, with a rollback to some last stable version, which I do believe can be identified. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:29, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Strike your repeated accusations of POV pushing or provide some fucking evidence. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, I didn't want to do this, but here's some evidence of your POV pushing. Again, I'm not trying to get you in trouble, this is just presented to support my call for full prot.
    • Here's where you reinserted unsourced content connecting Swann to fake news and Russian disinformation.
    • Here's where you compared your campaign to add this content to disputes over pseudoscience.
    • Here's where you said your position was such common knowledge that no sourcing was necessary. (At least, you cited WP:SKYBLUE, and that's what it's about.)
    • Here's where you said erroneously that "demonstrably false claims of fact" were the "very definition of fake news."
    • Here's where you said you weren't going to waste your time arguing with me, and you told me to "fuck off."
    • Here's where you called efforts to enforce BLP "bullshit whitewashing."
    • Here's where you said you were trying to get me to "shut up" and alluded to me being "a fucking robot who can't engage in any thought whatsoever."
    • Here's where you bizarrely objected to my RfC on the basis that I hadn't previously obtained any consensus for my position. (What would be the point of starting an RfC if I had already obtained consensus?)
    --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:35, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, here we go:
    • Sourced in the body, as explained by at least three other editors at talk: [65], [66], [67] and me.
    • I did not add this content, I'm hardly on a "campaign" and so what if I compared it to pseudoscience? The notion that Swann is a legitimate reporter is clearly WP:FRINGE, according to the sources themselves.
    • That was not my assertion, and I explained it rather clearly in detail in that post. I clearly said that if a source defines what Swann says in the same way that fake news is defined, it's not OR to call it fake news. Just like if a source describes something as "that color between red and yellow" we can call it "orange". It would be nice if you would read comments (as you have been advised to do by multiple editors at that page) instead of simply responding to what you think they say.
    • That is not what I said, and you damn well know it. I even went back and bolded the very important point that you "conveniently" left out.
    • Are you suggesting me being unwilling to engage with dishonest editors is a sign of POV pushing?
    • "efforts to enforce BLP" is bullshit. It's efforts to WP:CRYBLP over widely reported claims about Swann's work, not himself personally.
    • That's where I point out that your argument only works if all we do is quote sources instead of summarizing them. Yeah, robots who can't engage in any thought whatsoever would have a problem with summation. It wasn't an accusation; it was a characterization of how weak your argument is.
    • That is not the reason I objected to your RfC (that I participated in, by the way), as is made explicitly clear in my comment. I quite plainly stated that I objected because you're dragging out a content dispute that has no basis in the RSes.
    I want to point out that I could at least four different, policy based arguments against your objections that you've completely ignored, in favor of continuing to assert in the face of contradictory evidence that the material is not supported by sources. You are lying about what the sources say, either having read them yourself, or by refusing to read them and pretending to know already. I'm fairly certain you're not POV pushing, but you're certainly dragging out a content dispute that has no policy basis, and should have been resolved weeks ago.
    Finally, as for your "case for full prot": I've edited the article exactly twice. Your "case for full prot" isn't stronger or weaker for anything I've done. I could be insisting that Swann is a child rapist and it wouldn't matter, because it's been the following list of editors opposing this change: Neutrality, Jytdog, Objective3000, NorthBySouthBaranof, Snooganssnoogans & Calton, far more than it has been I. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:05, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    This will probably draw an objection, but this is my rough paraphrase of what you just wrote: "I didn't POV push! It's just that I'm so obviously right that any removal of my content is bullshit whitewashing and POV pushing, any BLP argument is CRYBLP, any disagreement over what the sources say is lying, and any extended discussion is worthy of me telling my fellow editors to shut up, fuck off, and call them thoughtless robots." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:11, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "I didn't POV push! It's just that I'm so obviously right this change has been opposed by the clear majority of editors for such well-defined reasons that any this removal of my existing content is bullshit whitewashing and POV pushing, any this particular BLP argument is CRYBLP, any disagreement over what the sources say is lying you're lying if you claim you've made even one single attempt to characterize what the sources are saying, instead of just blindly insisting that they're not saying what me and others have quoted them saying, and any extended discussion is worthy of me telling my fellow editors to shut up, fuck off, and call them thoughtless robots this discussion has been going on for weeks with no consensus to make the proposed changes, and it's growing disruptive."
    I made some corrections there, since you seem to be really bad at reading my comments, preferring to completely ignore them in favor of the kind of wild assertions I've never made on this site.
    P.S. Here's me using the same basic line of argument to defend remarks by Trump as being racially inclusive. Because consistently using the same logic even when it contradicts one's POV is the halmark of a POV pusher. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Suggestion @DrFleischman and MPants at work:. I am pretty good at doing line-by-line reviews of content to sources, paying particular attention to POV. I see that the article is tagged for {{synthesis}}. I would be happy to do a review and edit if that would be ok with both of you. It seems that there is aa lot of re-litigation of previous comments... and maybe having someone new come in and take a look at the content may help get to a "stable" version and one that you might both agree with (even if it wouldn't be your wording).–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd appreciate that! Thank you! FYI there's a pending RfC. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:15, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I saw that. Ok, if it's ok with MPants at work, I will get started with that. I was going to also post recent examples: Isaias Afwerki‎, as a result of an ANI issue, and Ute people, which was essentially a rewrite and line-by-line review.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:18, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Kommentar

    SarekOfVulcan, CaroleHenson I looked at the article, and it's not good. The term "fake news" is POV in and of itself, in the fact that it's bandied about by all sides, and probably everybody in the news is practicing POV pushing. Whatever the last stable version is, it should be one without that newly-coined term of "fake news". I do have a suggestion, short of an inter-action ban, topic ban, or the like. This worked on Battle of the Alamo, but that particular topic was not being argued all day and night on TV shows. Still ... a Full Protection was put on the article by TomStar81, initially to be a 6-month ban in July 2015. A duplicate of the article was created as a subpage of the article, and editors were instructed to work out their differences there. I can no longer find the subpage, but my memory of this, is that nobody edited on the subpage, and the issue quieted down.

    What I see happening here, if a full protection doesn't happen, is the news media are dictating our content - either direction - and Wikipedia is not better off for it. What I see on the news, leaking over here, is that people are so duped by one position or another, that there is no middle ground, just complete chaos. Perhaps there is a better way at Wikipedia. If this can't be worked out, there should even-handed topic bans or inter-action bans. If it cannot be resolved here, then maybe it should go to Arbitration/Requests. — Maile (talk) 00:27, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I agree about there being an issue with the term "fake news". I think that people can take it several ways. The term did come directly from the articles, so I see why it was used, but I don't think it's encyclopedic.
    I am happy to start work on the article in a subarticle or as a draft, but I am not sure how the outcome will be different. But, I am happy to do it.
    My goal was to do a full line-by-line review and editing of the article, though and summarize the nature of my edits / reasoning on the talk page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:32, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    If you want to put in that kind of work line-by-line, I support you. But what is the assurance that the situation will not immediately reoccur the moment it's done? Just my own POV, is that you get "real news" when your local media is reporting on your area. But on a national and international level, it's now tabloid journalism. — Maile (talk) 00:41, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    User:CaroleHenson if you are going to do that, I trust you will start with the body and the circle back to the lead when you are done Jytdog (talk) 00:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Maile66, Yes, I may have to change sources along the way. Not sure that I agree about the difference between local and international/national news, but I agree that there may be some cases where I will be looking for a change in sources for more neutral, objective tones.
    OK, fine with me. — Maile (talk) 00:58, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Jytdog, My approach is generally top-down starting with the intro... and then return to the intro to ensure it properly summarizes the article. So, if there is something problematic in the intro, my approach is to catch that upfront... but not rewrite the intro until the entire article is reviewed/edited. Does that make sense?–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:56, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Edit war at St. Martinus University Faculty of Medicine

    (non-admin closure) Edit war is over and Jytdog is cleaning up the article. Tornado chaser (talk) 01:25, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Thar is a big edit war here, not quite sure what is is about, as I am not involved. Tornado chaser (talk) 18:14, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Update, the page has been protected. Tornado chaser (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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    Edit war at Jason Spencer (politician)

    Mopped up by SarekOfVulcan. Natureium (talk) 20:24, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    There is an edit war at the listed page in the wake of the controversy concerning Jason Spencer. Germany7to1 is posting Swastika and Confederate flag as his picture in the infobox. I have repeatedly reverted the charges to no avail and warned the user at least once. Please have the page protected and deal with the user in the most appropriate manner. Christianster94 (talk) 20:16, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    FYI, I just reverted him removing this post. Natureium (talk) 20:18, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict)And we have some move-vandalism. [68] Natureium (talk) 20:21, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    And blocked indef. 10-ish edits, then vandalism spree? Bye. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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    IP:108.54.92.30

    IP blocked by Ymblanter for a year. (non-admin closure) SemiHypercube ✎ 22:43, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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    Can an admin block this for at least a year (previous blocks have been 1 month, 3 month etc) - almost all edits are vandalism or BLP violations. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:58, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

     Erledigt, a year.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:07, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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    73.7.82.234

    IP has been blocked by User:Cullen328 for 72 hours. (non-admin closure) SemiHypercube ✎ 11:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Apparent hoax creation and suspicious wikilinking (to non-existing articles). I initially thought of AIV but it's not 100% unambiguous vandalism. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 00:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Blocked by Cullen328--Ymblanter (talk) 05:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I did. I saw nothing useful in their edits. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:50, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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    "User:HAYDEN ---NATALIE": [69]

    Not an issue for ANI, but I'd suggest the filter is objecting to the repeated non-alphabetic characters. Black Kite (talk) 09:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Apparently someone has been trying to create this username for quite awhile now and the edit filter is continuously blocking it (probably for good reason, though). Could an admin attempt to see what's going on here? Thanks. 2601:1C0:4401:24A0:D0E2:ECD3:B550:48E0 (talk) 06:05, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    User:Julio Puentes

    JP has been creating unreferenced articles or articles with no clear references or just imdb. They have been creating articles for 9 years, most of which (from those I've seen) are tagged as unref, refimprove or notability concerns. After 18 messages I have got nowhere. I have offered help, directed to advice, explained the policies on sourcing and communication etc. but after eight months of this I've run out of other options. Their previous block in 2016 appears to be for edit warring. Some had imdb listed as their source and removed, there have also needed to be re-writing of some of the articles because they were copyvios of imdb. I think imdb has been their only source for most of their articles, but they won't clarify.

    For full details of the discussion, please see User talk:Julio Puentes#Warning. They have replied twice but neither message has been reassuring:

    • Hello, sorry for being a bit lazy, it's just that the whole bureaucracy of Wikipedia can honestly be too much of a hassle at times.
    • Excuse me, but what is it exactly that you want? I've put the necessary references and tried to include as much information as possible on the articles. I really don't know what else to do.

    The second message indicated they were unsure with referencing, despite my explanations and almost a decade of creating articles, so I tried to explain further. 5 more messages later, I don't think they're reading them. Hopefully they'll engage here. Boleyn (talk) 06:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    (Fixed the username spelling in section title and OP's complaint. Will leave it to other admins to rveiew the evidence itself. Abecedare (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC))[reply]
    (Non-administrator comment) This user is clearly not wanting to learn the ropes regarding use of reliable sources. There are also some WP:POV issues in their editing history. I am confused why there is no attempt, after many repeated warnings, to try to use reliable sources. They are not listening or perhaps this is a CIR issue.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    If there is a problem with articles, they go through the process of proposed deletion. A block is unnecessary. Another alternative suggestion is to move these articles back into the user's draft space for improvement. A block is the last resort. Best Regards, Barbara ✐  ✉ 16:11, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, and this sure looks like last resort territory if they don't try to communicate effectively about the issues.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:25, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Reopening as this was auto-archived without resolution. The articles shouldn't necessarily be prodded, many are on notable topics, and draftifying them brings other issues - many of those who work on drafts are not happy so many on notable topics are moved there. I think an indefinite block would force them to communicate. Boleyn (talk) 17:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I would say it's caused me a lot of disruption and others at NPP trying to sort these articles out, and the continued creation of these articles. Julio Puentes, you have continued to edit since this was opened, please comment here so we can get this resolved. Will you add references to these articles? Will you add references and respond to messages in future? Boleyn (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Dorglorg edit-warring at List of oldest living people

    Despite a specific edit-warring warning on their talk page this user has continued to edit war and in doing so has also violated WP:BLP. Despite clear advice that implying someone has died without a WP:RS stating that this is the case and also violating the criteria for inclusion for the list article concerned they have followed the "GRG trumps Wikipedia" line (for those unaware of this subject, this attitude has resulted in multiple topic-bans, of which this user should be aware). See the relevant talk page for the discussion of this matter. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:26, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I was not edit warring, I made two reverts and gave an additional reason for the second one, and I did not imply that anyone died. I was following the guidelines for the article that if someone isn't confirmed alive in one year, they are removed.--Dorglorg (talk) 08:52, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks like a content dispute to me, and I see that both users know where the talk page of the article is. If both of you agree to not edit-war any further but continue discussing at the talk page instead, I guess we can close this one.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem is now that the multiple pages show incorrect information and with 3RR already violated this won't be corrected for another 24 hours. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 09:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    3RR is not an encouragement to edit-war once the 24h term has passed. All such issues must be resolved by consensus. I do not see any obvious vandalism here.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:59, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Because it's more reliable than Wikipedia or its policies! 12.171.137.4 (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Editor POV pushing on Romania's contribution to World War II and espousing extremist views

    I'd be grateful if other admins and editors could please consider the case of Torpilorul (talk · contribs):

    These views have lead to POV-motivated disruptive editing of articles. As some examples within the last month:

    At very minimum, I think that a topic ban on articles concerning the history of Romania during World War II is needed. Given that they are a SPA for pushing extremist views into articles, I think an indefinite duration block might also be appropriate. Nick-D (talk) 10:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Quick question: Is it still POV if it's all well-sourced to a easily-accessible book on Google Books? As for the Axis and Antonescu articles, dude, that's over. For the first I settled on the talk page to only edit the text awaiting a consensus for infobox and such (again, reliable books linked) and for the latter, again, the matter's been dead for weeks. I accepted it and decided to never edit on the Antonescu article without my usual Google Book sources accessible by links. Also, am I seriously going to be blocked for openly espousing my purely-honest opinions and views? I thought editing using reliable sources is all that matters. Anyone can see that I do so. And not swearing, I don't do that either. I've been very civil and honest, and only wanted to offer ideas for improving articles, I'm sorry if it came out as something else. As for my opinions, no, they aren't changing. I invited you to my talk page if you wanted to discuss my opinions, but instead you opted to write a hit piece on me. Torpilorul (talk) 11:19, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The user has continued to be a pain in this area, and has been so for a while. It is not at all clear he is not here, just that he has a very different view of what this encyclopedia should say. He may not even always be wrong, but clearly does have far too much of a battleground mentality provoked by a clearly nationalist agenda. This means he is going to continue to be a problem in the long term when he does not get "THE FACTS" in to articles.

    However his politics (apart from how they impact upon his ability to cooperate), and should not influence our decision.Slatersteven (talk) 11:22, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    If the editor kept their politics to their user space it would be not particularly problematic. But this is clearly motivating their editing, leading to POV content which reflects these views being added to articles and editors who try to stop this being subjected to edit warring. Nick-D (talk) 11:25, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Motivating? Yes, certainly, I'm not gonna deny that. Influencing it? Not at all. All you have to do, is check the book links I provide. They say precisely what I write. I've been very open since day one of why am I here. What my work focuses on. If trying to engage with my fellow editors and seek their opinions/advice was a mistake, or at least doing it too much so I became a "pain in the area", again, I'm sorry. And yes, I did have some edit wars, but they were ended amiably. We all have edit wars from time to time. Torpilorul (talk) 11:34, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I see nothing in the above that is anything other then a very nationalistic editor feeling his nation is being sold short on coverage. Apart form the (trivial) street name issue I see nothing that could be said to be motivated by his opinions of Antonescu (there was a while back, but only the use of the word fascist, he never attempted to deny any of Antonescu's crimes). Indeed quite the opposite is true, he seems to have no issue trying to whitewash the Antonescu regime. As I said it rather appears to be rampant nationalism that is the issue.Slatersteven (talk) 11:37, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you properly define "white-washing" in this case please? I never denied his crimes, I just: 1) Don't agree of the Soviet Union being an appropriate judge, and 2) Prefer to focus on what he did for the country. That is simply what I choose to focus on, same like others choose to focus on his crimes. We're talking here strictly of my view of him, not article editing. The "Elephant in the Room" when bringing Antonescu in the discussion is huge, hence why I tend to stay away from the topic. And focus more on the technical part of Romania's WW2 campaign (war weapons and vehicles, and battles involving them) rather than the biographical one. That being said, am I supposed to be forced to care about his crimes as much as his deeds for the country or care even more, am I obliged to share the majority point of view? This is exactly why I made the today's thread on the WP: inquire if my views will get me into trouble. Judging by the hit piece on me based on them, I see I was right to make that thread. Torpilorul (talk) 11:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry I think you misunderstood, I am saying that you are not whitewashing.Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah...Okay, sorry. My bad. So what now? Am I getting blocked? Torpilorul (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not yet, it has not been long enough for most people to comment. Blocks are however not the only outcome, and at this time I think a stern warning is all that is needed (with the understanding that if you do any of the above again it is a TBAN (and note unlike most people who would suggest that here I will back it up)).Slatersteven (talk) 12:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    ...Do what exactly? Just so I get this straight: is there anything objectively wrong with my article working style? Because not bothering the WP Talk unless needed for an article and not writing anymore "extremist" edit summaries, that can be arranged. Out of my own volition, I'm willing to take everything to the talk page if I get reverted twice. Any other issues? Torpilorul (talk) 12:43, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Torpilorul, It may be useful for you to read Wikipedia:advocacy and Wikipedia:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. from your user page it would seem that you are on a mission to correct what you perceive as injustices in historiography, or the way your nation has been depicted historically. That may be a path to future problems. My advice would be to widen your editing scope. I have no comments on the political points made by the O.P at this stage, however the statement "I'm not a denialist - he did kill all those Jews. But those Jews are simply not enough to sway my liking for him" does not bode well. I suspect it's probably unprecedented on any Talkpage on WP at the moment. ANI would be buzzing if there were I bet.Irondome (talk) 15:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Torpilorul, I'd also recommend you to follow the advice from Irondome. Your approach is wrong and is not what Wikipedia is about. Our vision of balanced overview must reflect their due weight. We all have our own bias, and the best way to avoid that bias is to compare and discuss what mainstream reliable sources consistently summarises, not to cherry-pick a source that fits in your narrative. If you cannot adjust your editing approach right now, you will be blocked very shortly, and that will be a shame because you are certainly editing in good faith I think. Alex Shih (talk) 16:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Let me start by saying that I am a Romanian and I find Torpilorul's political views objectionable (unfortunately, such views are more common in Romania than one would expect). Regarding his editing, except his edit summaries and talk page messages, which account to baiting and soapboxing, his article edits are not particularly destructive (even if too bold sometimes). While the topics he edits are generally much too technical for me to have an informed opinion, I suspect his edits may suffer from undue weight in favour of Romania (again, boasting the few Romanian military successes and dismissing/minimising its failures is not that uncommon in Romanian scholarly research dealing with the military, especially the one pertaining to WW2 and published after ca 1980). As far I know, undue weight, as long as is based on sources reliable in form (not necessarily in content, but, unless the source or the author has been the subject of a scandal, it's hard to prove unreliability in practice), is not actionable. Regarding the extremist rantings in userspace and on project talk pages, I don't know how the community deals with such things these days, but Torpilorul should really find better ways to spend his time on WP.Anonimu (talk) 16:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Brother, you're accusing me of things I haven't done. You are inherently convinced that my work must have some undue weight in favor of Romania, because of my beliefs. Doesn't that go against a Wiki principle too? Judge the work, not the creator? Well anyway, for your information, Romania's military successes weren't few, and I'm not maximizing anything, for the simple fact that there was nothing to maximize to begin with, until I came around. Our Navy did great, our Air Force did great, our armour performed well and even parts of our infantry (the vanatori de munte) performed admirably as well. Me writing about this stuff is not called maximizing, if you bother to check the sources in any of my work you will see that there is no hyperbole, I write basically the exact thing said by the source. Torpilorul (talk) 17:35, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not convinced you do it, it is just an assumption given the bias I’ve noticed in some of the sources you used. You can use sources that technically fit WP:RS and still have a biased article, without necessarily being your fault (you may lack access to sources providing a different perspective that could balance the POV, or you may choose to ignore them; I assume you’re in the first situation, and sloppy documentation is not something that gets you blocked on WP). Anonimu (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Name me the sources, and what's the bias in them please. Torpilorul (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Alright I've had enough. There is nothing objectively wrong with the content I add on my edits (a bit too pushy sometimes and some tendentious edit summaries, I'll take care of that), this is a hit piece of me based on my opinions and motivations. Which I'm doubling down on. You know why Antonescu killed all those Jews? Because he was the man of the country, he served the country, and did what the country wanted. And Romanians - in their majority - wanted the Jews out. It wasn't just him, it was most of the nation. If those tasked with killing the Jews would have cared, they would have resigned. But most never even tried to save one. During the Iasi Pogrom, railroad workers beat the Jews with hammers. They had no obligation to do that. Antonescu, merely did his job as the leader of Romania. And before you jump, let me just tell you, you have absolutely no right to criticize us. There is no way your countries can ever get into our shoes and prove that they'd have done better. We had 4-5% Jewish minority, for over half a century. We had our 1878 independence recognition, conditioned by giving them citizenship. Whether you block me or not, this is my last comment on this thread. Torpilorul (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Torpilorul I suggest you strike this—with the upmost haste. Wikipedia is not a platform for your beliefs. Advocating for the mass killing of Jews in Romania typically is frowned upon here—and in all walks of civilized life.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:15, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    So have a lot of other people (and I am damn close to it). This was an unnecessary escalation that will almost certainly earn you a b block...well done.Slatersteven (talk) 07:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal: Indef block

    Based on highly problematic editing, including propaganda, excessive soap-boxing and racist language. Sample:

    • "Shouts like "Fascists, Antisemitic, war criminal" - they're literally gibberish to most of us. We won't see the point, all we'll see is our anti-Communist heroes and martyrs being attacked, and we won't like it." [87]

    The apparent intent of speaking for the entire Romanian nation is offensive. Then there's this:

    • "Call me paranoid, but to me there is clearly an "old guard" in Milhist who wants to keep things as they are now, and not make things right for Romania. Probably because of "Muh Holocaust" or something." [88]

    I had to look up what "Muh Holocaust" means. It's apparently an anti-semitic slur / meme, to the point that The Daily Stormer tags its articles with "Muh Holocaust". It's used to denote the Jewish deflection of responsibility for their misdeeds by invoking the Holocaust. Combined with nationalistic editing sample, the user does not appear "to be there" to build a neutral encyclopedia.

    Also see: [89] and [90], with the same thrust. And finally, there's this jem immediately above apparently reveling in depictions of genocide: [91]. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:41, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    There is still nothing objectively wrong with the content and sourcing of my edits, though. That being said, I am determined to not talk about this anymore. I'm again sorry if I offended anyone, I just spoke my mind, and tried to be as honest as possible. I still have an important contribution to make to the Wiki, doing - as until now - stuff that virtually no-one else would do, pour the hours of research and stuff. If the community will decide I need a "forced break" then I will comply. But I'd strongly advise against an indefinite block. I still have a dozen of Google Books links stored, for the following week alone. I'm sorry I've wasted anyone's time, and I promise I'll get back to work and do it correctly. I truly wish to remain among the ranks of the editors, and I promise to revise my behavior if allowed. It's not like I have much more to say anyway, already spoke just about all of my mind. Torpilorul (talk) 06:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support This guy is clearly WP:NOTHERE. AryaTargaryen (talk) 05:59, 26 July 2018 (UTC)AryaTargaryen[reply]
    • Support oder at least an indefinite t-ban from Romania in WWII (broadly construed). I was going to propose this myself after the editor’s comment above, but wanted to see if they would strike it as I requested. This editor seems like they are trying to right great wrongs. Excusing the mass killing of Jews in Romania under a ruthless dictator and making racial slurs cannot be tolerated if we legitimately care about preserving a collaborative environment.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 07:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I spoke, my mind. Nothing of what I said, ever influenced any of my work. Why are you trying to have me banned from doing well-researched and well-sourced work because of my views? Alright, I apologize, okay? I wasn't quite aware this was such a big deal, truly. I guess I need to be more weary of others' sensitivities. I will know better from now on. But there is nothing I added on any Romania-related article to warrant any banning. I repeat but it seems I am talking to the walls: All that I write is basically what the source I provide says. I am very certain I have done nothing objectively wrong in my field of work, and if I did I assume my mistakes and apologize for them. I mainly expressed my views and beliefs, I never let them influence my work. That you don't like my views is another fish food. My motivations mean nothing, why should I be banned because I chose to focus on a specific point in a specific country's history? In fact, I let out all my beliefs in order to vent, really. To make sure I get them out of my system and not have them plastered over actual articles. All I did, and all I am doing, has but one goal: as much reliably-sourced info on Romania's WW2 military as possible, and as much control over my bias. What exactly is wrong about "righting great wrongs", if I have a reliable source for it? Why does my motivation matter, as long as, again, I write well-sourced easily-verifiable material? Anyway, I rest my case. I am tired. I regret my mistake of over-talking. I've wasted a whole day yesterday, which could be spent on constructive editing. This is all I had to say. If you want me banned over my views, it's the Wiki's loss, really. I have some big plans, truly extensive and sourced work. I have said, all that I wanted to say. Do as you may, I've had enough. Torpilorul, out. For real this time. Torpilorul (talk) 07:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Torpilorul justifying mass murder on a collaborative project like Wikipedia has nothing to do with other people’s “sensitivities”. It has nothing to do with whether I “like” your views. It comes down to trust. How can you expect anyone to trust you to edit on Romania in WWII when you are an admitted apologist for their hand in extermination? Besides that point, your editing has been brought into question here already above.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 08:32, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support indef block - If the consensus is a topic ban on Romania, I'd very reluctantly go along with that, but given the views the editor has expressed, and their unwillingness to edit within our policies, this is simply someone we don't need here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • very weak opposeSupport The last one makes me less sure they will not be problem in the future. It was a defense of antisemitism (indeed genocide). Having said that so far I see no major indication they are letting that affect articles. As such I see little reason for a ban, but I do see a need for a very very close eye to be kept with ban understanding that if they do ever try to pedal antisemitism on Wikipedias articles (and keep it off talk pages) they will be a permaban. As long as they behave what lunacy they believe is irrelevant.Slatersteven (talk) 07:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per my post above. This editor is here only to push an agenda, and this is leading to false claims and bias being added to articles. This post arguing that the mass killing of hundreds of thousands of Jews by the Romanian Government was justified is reason enough alone for this person to be excluded from Wikipedia: leaving aside the fact that such views are utterly repugnant, there is no way that such a person can edit encyclopedia articles in a neutral or reliable way. Nick-D (talk) 08:02, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      @Nick-D: I believe he wasn't saying murdering Jews was justifiable, he said that antisemitism was endemic in the Romanian people as a whole, not just Antonescu (to defend Antonescu). He did glorify Antonescu regardless of the fact that he was complicit in the murder of Jews, though. I also have some issues with how you described the case here. The user isn't a SPA (he has created plenty of what seem like unproblematic naval articles[92] - are you a SPA for Australian military history then?). Yes, many of the edit summaries are inappropriate, but just asserting that Romania was a "major Axis power" isn't problematic or puffery. Also did you really think talking about the Romanian navy sinking Soviets military vessels is "dismissing the murder of Jews" just because many Jews were Soviet citizens (and thus seamen, I presume?)[93]. That's a rather extreme interpretation. Anyway, the example of "Muh Holocaust" as pointed by K.e.coffman is 4chan /pol/'s language for sure. Using such language here is just stupid, as is using Wikipedia as a forum for such controversial topics. If you really think that his extremist views pervaded even articles about Romanian ships, then the 46 articles created by him should be nuked.--Pudeo (talk) 11:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    ...Except for the fact that I've been well editing and creating articles for almost a year now, and had the exact same views and beliefs throughout all of it. I finally choose to come out and be myself, and I'm being smeared and accused of things I haven't done. This was, besides me venting and getting things out of my mind, an experiment. I wanted to see if the Wiki would ban even a committed hard-working editor like me who uses reliable sources virtually all the time, based on his views and beliefs. Congratulations, you smearing ideologues proved my point. Torpilorul (talk) 08:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    If you are not even able to keep your word about not posting here again I cannot think you will keep your word with what you agree not to do. You really are demonstrating exactly what people are saying is the problem very well. Especially as you seem to admit this was (and is) deliberate and experimental. We are not a lab for you to test your theories on.Slatersteven (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support six-month TBAN What this series of tirades (and those on the Milhist talk page) show is that Torpilorul has faulty judgement. Based on their expressed views and the POV-pushing edits (in the ARBMAC area, I might add) highlighted above, I just don't trust them to edit neutrally in the topic area, but am not keen on a indef block in the first instance. I support a six month TBAN, for "Romania during WWII (broadly construed)". Perhaps they can edit articles on Romania in other time periods or in other topic areas for a while and show they can edit neutrally? Then I'd be willing to give them a bit of rope. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am not sure if topic ban is a viable option at the moment unless if the user would cease to engage in further tendentious editing, something that appears to be unlikely. I have blocked Torpilorul indefinitely; my rationale can be found here. Alex Shih (talk) 09:23, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      I think your rationale was incredibly gentle for someone who just ranted about how the killing of Jews with hammers was perfectly justifiable. I think any evaluation of the quality of their editing is immediately superseded by ugly hatemongering (or the justification of such). Grandpallama (talk) 10:49, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I support Alex's actions here - at some point we have to say that purposefully rubbing other editors' noses in crap is something we shouldn't tolerate. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose such a severe sanction. To be clear - I find the political views here abhorrent. However the user has been creating fair Romanian / Black sea naval content and hasn't been warned previously. They clearly shouldn't have posted some of his more FORUMish posts and they have made some questionable edits in terms of puffery for Romania in WWII. I will however note that the lesser Axis players are often overlooked (part of this being whitewashing/denying their part) - and that in some Wikipedia articles the Romanian role is underplayed - Torpilorul, for perhaps the wrong reasons, has been rectifying some of this. They certainly dug themselves a hole in ANI. They should be severely warned, possibly blocked/banned for a short period, and then hauled back here if this persists.Icewhiz (talk) 12:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak Support This action causes me considerable difficulty. I finally came to support as I doubt that Torpilorul would be able to comply with the terms of any lesser sanction. However it does feel like one strike and you're out and more importantly he is right that Romania's role in WWII is under reported or unacknowledged both here on wikipedia and in western sources generally. Without allowing someone to challenge that we will continue to give a NPOV solely based on the Anglo-American sources we are most familiar with. The victors write history (at least initially) so permitting someone to challenge this accepted history (using RS) allows other editors the opportunity to consider if the existing text (again sourced using RS) actually conveys the full and complete picture Lyndaship (talk) 13:37, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support TBAN from Romanian World War II history and also all Jewish topics. Throw in Roma and Hungarian topics for good measure. Oppose site-wide ban. It seems widely agreed this user isn't contributing in a constructive way in this area at this point. A user with such views about Jews ("Muh Holocaust"...) from Romania also really can't be trusted to edit neutrally and constructively with regard to Hungarian or Roma topics either, imo. On the other hand, if he has interest in other, hopefully less controversial, topics and wishes to contribute there (say, to Romanian ecology, or Romanian folk culture) he could still be of use, so a site-wide ban may be premature.--Calthinus (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Possible political POV pushing onto the Main Page using DYK

    OK, this is a bit long, so I'm going to bullet point it

    I think it's quite clear that Lionelt appears to believe that DYK can be subverted for political use. However, I'm unsure what to suggest; a topic-ban from DYK would be reasonable, but that's not going to stop such articles being created and nominated by someone else. Discussion welcome ... Black Kite (talk) 13:14, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • Is there evidence of long-term approval of problematic hooks like mentioned in point 6? If so, the easiest way to deal with it would be using DS (and if there isn't, a logged DS warning might suffice to not do it again.) TonyBallioni (talk) 13:19, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Lionelt consistently exhibits a very strong POV. As do many of us, of course, but he seems less self-aware than some. Guy (Help!) 13:23, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    If it was just this one, Tony, I'd have left it where it was (I removed his approvals of the hooks). It is the issues in point 8 that lead me to think this may become an ongoing issue that needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes an serious problem. Black Kite (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, point 8 is certainly problematic.A logged warning might suffice and any further disruption will result in a topic ban from APOL32 per ACDS.∯WBGconverse 13:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    There does rather seem to be a promotialism thing going on here. He seems to ber both saying, and encouraging, the Use of DYK to promote causes and products (all but ones of a political nature). It might be best to to issue a warning for now, and see if that does any good.Slatersteven (talk) 13:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the essay is certinly more problematic than the hook (which garners enough attention to ensure it will never go anywhere in that form); but the essay has the appearance of an official page. Specifically, it would (probably) be fine in userspace but I'm not sure it should be giving the impression that it's endorsed by a Wikiproject. (Is it, btw?) —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 13:35, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that the essay would likely be fine in userspace. I think there are reasonable arguments for why you might want to promote figures on the right to DYK (en.wiki has a reputation for leaning slightly left, so showing that we do have neutral coverage of conservatives/things criticizing liberals and leftists is a good thing). The larger concern that both the essay and the hook in point 6 raise is that this is a systemic problem of trying to promote problematic hooks. If that is going on, then we have an issue that needs to be addressed very quickly. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:52, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    What does autopatrolled have to do with POV DYKs? Now that you've suggested a DS topic ban and revoking autopatrol, it looks like you're just trying to punish him. Natureium (talk) 13:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The articles which they created and which has now been AfDed would be best looked at by a new page patroller, though I am not sure any patroller would decide to go for AfD.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Natureium:What? You need to read the entirety of the proposal.And if I've seen the articles, I would have sent all 3 to AFD, on grounds of failing to adhere to the notability guidelines. These are all stuff that shall be screened at NPP, (if reviewers are diligent enough).These coupled with his questionable motives make a fine case for revoking the flag, IMO. Also, kindly point out the exact phrase which led to you to think you've suggested a DS topic ban.∯WBGconverse 15:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes - but when you consider where it is, and then add "The raison d'être for DYK is promotion.", and then create a number of not-exactly-neutral political stubs "ready for expansion", it all looks very suspicious. Black Kite (talk) 16:05, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I can certainly understand that. I'm just pointing out that the page is not problematic per se, except for the reliably (and in context, understandable) right-wing slant to the examples. And while suspicious is something I'd agree with, "slam dunk case for POV pushing" is not. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:32, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's very suspect, because a backwater DYK nomination page is the last place you'd expect a random IP to turn up, but I don't really want the identity of JerryTBE to derail this particular discussion, to be honest. Black Kite (talk) 16:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I just wanted to make sure we are considering Jerry the Bellybutton Elf as a separate person from Lionelt, who, aside from his large number of right-wing POV changes to articles about politics, religion and abortion, has edited a fair number of articles local to Southern California. If Lionelt is in SoCal, then he's not Jerry the Bellybutton Elf in Washington DC. And Awilley, the State Dept IP is obviously used by a number of people, which is probably why you concluded it to be an independent editor. The linked sequence, though, proves my point, as the time between edits is so small, and the draft version of the article would have been virtually impossible for someone to find on their own. Binksternet (talk) 16:32, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • A couple things here. First, I would never live in DC. Too hot in the summer and freezing in the winter. No thanks. I've been to visit, but didn't make it to Foggy Bottom. This Binkster person should remove his conspiracy theory that I am illegally logging out to fix spelling errors from an anonymous IP, since that's an aspersion and I wouldn't to see him get blocked, per policy. You cant just go around making accusations of people using multiple accounts to edit without any evidence. Binkster should have the chance to convince the mods that he understands this before a block is placed on his account. Calton should also have the chance to show he understands that ANI is not a forum to be used to make complaints of unrelated editing, like Lionel helping users write DYK submissions. Calton should be made aware of the proper forum to file formal complaints, and this is not the place to air miscellaneous grievances about people not sharing his extreme left-wing worldview. I propose a warning for Black Kite to take content disputes to the editor in question, not try to get that editor punished by the mods for being a conservative by shopping for a mod to do the deed. After the above is complete, this posting should be deleted and everyone should go back to building the encyclopedia and working together in a friendly environment, rather than turning this into some liberal vs conservative battleground. Jerry the Bellybutton Elf (talk) 18:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually (1) this posting isn't about you, really (as I said above) (2) I am an administrator, and I brought the issue here for further discussion, and (3) threatening other editors will not end well for you. Black Kite (talk) 18:49, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Calton should be made aware... And you should be made aware that I've filed no complaints, just provided information, that your mind-reading skills and/or political orientation detection skills need work, and that Jimbo Wales did not die and leave you in charge. Also, please note that making stuff up about other editors to attack them can get you blocked. --Calton | Talk 01:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not necessarily wrong for a Wikiproject to focus on producing DYKs for topics within their area of interest, but this does have the appearance of a self-dealing attempt to shepherd new articles and DYKs through the process with little outside input. The part of "DYK for Newbies" that concerns me is the "When your reviewer is a meanie" section which directs users to the Wikiproject Conservatism talk page if the DYK is rejected. (on a similar note Lionelt also created a Discretionary sanctions FAQ to be used alongside DS alerts, which also directs any DS questions to the WP Conservatism page.) –dlthewave ☎ 16:23, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Lionelt doesn't even hide his attempts to use Wikipedia as a propaganda vehicle very well, to go by this message he left on the User Talk page of a fellow axe-grinder* "The best part is if you get an article to 1500 chars you can get the article advertised on the Main page and in front of 17 million eyeballs" --Calton | Talk 16:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Quite a few people, I'm sure, want to promote their pet causes through DYK. It's not necessarily a problem, so long as their submissions conform with NPOV. I have vetted a few of Lionelt's nominations on the way to the main page and didn't detect any overt bias, although I wasn't necessarily looking hard for it. As long as they meet all the criteria, they are still eligible. Whether Lionelt or other users need a rap over the knuckles for other actions they have taken, I'll leave others to judge. Gatoclass (talk) 16:53, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I have vetted a few of Lionelt's nominations on the way to the main page and didn't detect any overt bias And would that include the one that opened this section?
    Quite a few people, I'm sure, want to promote their pet causes through DYK An you don't think that using Wikipedia as a promotional/propaganda vehicle is a problem? As for myself, I've come to the opposite conclusion, going by his actual article creations, edits, and talk page contributions. --Calton | Talk 01:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    If somebody has a political view I abhor, but whose contributions generally conform to all the relevant policies, why should I care about their politics? My point is simply that so far as DYK is concerned, the yardstick is the nomination, not the person's motivation for writing it. Gatoclass (talk) 12:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I just went back through my page creation history, and see that I started a number of biographies (of people who were no longer living) that I submitted to DYK. Of the ones who were alive in the 20th century, and were involved in politics or public opinion, all were known for political opinions that I agree with. I wasn't (consciously) pursuing a liberal agenda, but I was writing about people I admired. I do hope that all those articles were properly sourced with a neutral viewpoint. So, I can't get excited about what Lionelt did. - Donald Albury 18:25, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Donald, I don't think we're talking about the same thing at all there, if you look at points 5, 6 and 8 in the original post, you'll see that this is a completely different issue. Black Kite (talk) 18:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    For some historical context, this isn't the first time that the activities of Lionelt and Wikiproject Conservatism have raised concerns of NPOV and WP:PUSHing an agenda – see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Conservatism/Archive 8#NPOV edit requests and the concerns raised by DGG, User:Worm That Turned, User:MastCell, and User:Dennis Brown among others. Quoting Dennis: When a project goes from coordinating efforts to improve articles that have a common theme (an accepted use), to the point of promoting a philosophy (an unacceptable use), then the community has no choice but to step in and correct the problem. It isn't good practice for a Project to promote or endorse editing in a manner that is biased, no matter how subtle the endorsement. I think DGG's edits here have been mild (too mild in fact) and I'm concerned that if the members (particularly the founder User:Lionelt, who has been off wiki for several days) understand the concerns, or if a formal review by the entire community is required. While Project are given considerable leeway in determining their scope and purpose, they are not immune from policy. Like editors, they are accountable to and operate at the pleasure of the greater community. The matter died when those "several days" off wiki for Lionelt stretched into a disappearance from Wikipedia of 5+ years until returning this year (with only a handful of edits in the interim). Mojoworker (talk) 19:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I think the speculation about my motives is off-base. Regarding the hook in question, ""ringleader" of a "den of thieves"", there was no POV pushing, that was not politically motivated. It was in response to a boring ALT0 hook. My original suggestion to Jerry was:

    "The hook needs to be exciting. E.g. you could use Clinton's "But my emails" quote. Or Trump's "den of thieves.""

    By suggesting Clinton's quip I was not showing any political preference. Granted, once BLP concerns about the Trump quote were raised I pushed too hard on the quote. I realized that the Trump quote was outrageous, but to be honest there isn't much "hooky" material to work with at the IG report. Additionally, I reasoned in the Trump-era we are all sensitized to outrageous. I guess we're all not sensitized... When consensus formed against the Trump hook I moved on.– Lionel(talk) 20:28, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Regarding the three stubs, they are all 1 sentence long, they have multiple reliable sources present, and they are written neutrally. For example, "The Hope and the Change is a 2012 documentary film produced by Citizens United which is critical of the Obama administration." One of the sources is Politico. I was always under the impression that these stubs would be expanded neutrally. And if they went to DYK that some future reviewer would ensure that the hook was neutral.– Lionel(talk) 20:49, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    There is a difference between (1) using Wikipedia for political purposes (WP:PROMOTION) and (2) showcasing (advertising) political articles at DYK (WP:DYKAIM #1). If political articles or any articles are written in a biased way, then a case can be made for POV pushing. However our policies fully endorse neutrally-written political articles. The stubs I wrote need 1500 chars to qualify for DYK. I contributed one sentence to that. It is a stretch to suggest that I am POV pushing articles onto the Main page which for all intents and purposes haven't been written yet.– Lionel(talk) 21:09, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd wondered why you couldn't be bothered to pad those non-notable IMDB listings yourself, and given the events outlined in points 1 through 6 above, I can see why: I'd say it's now the OPPOSITE of a stretch. --Calton | Talk 03:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Adding to the historical context, Facto created the WP:Conservative notice board in June 2006, at the same time sending out a bunch of invitations like this, drawing in editors with a demonstrated conservative slant. Facto's notice board was soon recognized as a method for vote-stacking to promote American right-wing viewpoints, and it was deleted. At the MfD discussion, Nandesuka said, "It's a transparent attempt to organize and mobilize groups to edit articles based on a specific point of view."
    Facto stopped editing soon after the notice board was deleted, and was indeffed three years later when a sock account, Favortie, was discovered. Five months before that, Lionelt registered his username, in January 2009. In February 2011, he created the WP:WikiProject Conservatism, which had been suggested, coincidentally enough, as a redlink at the MfD for Facto's noticeboard. Lionelt used the new platform to attack another editor who had opposed his conservative slant and his one-sided invitations to membership. Other editors at the talk page raised concerns about the project scope and its "mission creep", calling out the Amero-centric bias there and at "This should be Project Conservatism not Project Modern American Conservatism". I raised the concern about invitations sent out in a skewed manner, sent only to fellow travelers, at "Establishing a guideline for inviting members". Nothing significant was done by Lionelt to correct these foundational problems, so I nominated his WikiProject for deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Conservatism. Among the most convincing arguments voiced there was MastCell's "this WikiProject has acted less to improve the quality of encyclopedic coverage, and more as a coordinating point for people whose edits advocate a conservative political and social agenda," in the same manner as the previous Conservative notice board. Despite this, the MfD resulted was "keep". I was disappointed, and I blame myself for not spending the proper amount of time to gather diffs and make a stronger case.
    Now we are again faced with the question of Lionelt's bias skewing the encyclopedia. It's a lot larger than one DYK, and larger than the WikiProject instructions regarding conservative DYKs. I think it's a problem of bias and activism inherent in Lionelt, a bias he built into the fabric of the WikiProject. I would still like to see the WikiProject shut down, and it would help protect the encyclopedia if Lionelt was topic banned with regard to politics. Binksternet (talk) 21:56, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The mission of WPConservatism is to improve conservatism-related articles. Period. WPConservatism has a diverse membership of editors including several editors who could be described as left-leaning. The thing I am most proud of at WPConservatism is the new A-Class Review Program. This ambitious initiative helps with the backlog at Good Article (GAN) and gets promising articles right to the doorstep of Featured Article (FAC). WPConservatism is in good company, there is only one other Wikiproject with A-Class Review, MILHIST. The first article promoted to A-Class is Margaret Thatcher. The next candidate for A-Class Review is likely List of American conservatives. A-Class Review proves that the purpose of WPConservatism--which is also my purpose--that purpose being article improvement. – Lionel(talk) 22:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • The observations by Black Kite, Binksternet, and others above are consistent with my own. Lionelt has picked up where he left off five years ago, by using Wikiproject conservatism as a platform for advocacy and recruiting. Five years ago when LGBT rights were at the forefront of current events, Lionelt made a a habit of placing Chick-fil-A "sammies" on the talk pages of users he perceived as friendly to his cause:[97][98][99] and more recently:[100][101]. It appears this is intended to induce Pavlovian responses from the recipients. For example, this rather pointed one immediately followed the recipient being blocked for edit warring on the Chick-fil-A article and calling someone a pedophile! Here's an example of him inviting an edit warring editor (who is now topic banned) to join Wikiproject conservatism [102] and then awarding a "sammie" to editor who helped with recruitment[103]. And again, rewarding the defense against liberal POV. Rocking Wikipedia to its foundations with this gem. My favorite though is his declaration that Donald Trump is good for "the Blacks". And don't worry, that awkward anachronism is OK because he is black!- MrX 🖋 22:56, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not good to cherry-pick fragments of quotes. The last quote that you cite was something that Trump said---not me. And I repeated it in reference to the record low Black unemployment numbers since Trump took office. We don't sanction editors for being politically incorrect. – Lionel(talk) 23:07, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Uh huh.- MrX 🖋 23:21, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    "Rocking Wikipedia to its foundations" is related to Trump topic area quantitative data analysis. If in fact irregularities are discovered at Arbitration Enforcement don't you think that would have far-reaching consequences? A research study was recently completed--ironically about AN/I--which found numerous issues. Is it that far fetched to try to determine if there are issues at AE?– Lionel(talk) 23:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    What's far fetched is calling that a quantitative data analysis. The only thing that you have discovered is the correlation between editors who blatantly violate our policies and the sanctions they receive.- MrX 🖋 23:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • From what I'm seeing here, the problem isn't so much Lionel as it is Wikiproject Conservatism. And that makes sense to me: I can't imagine how we could have a Wikiproject Conservatism, or Wikiproject Liberalism, or Wikiproject Libertarianism without it predominantly being used to push a POV, even by well-meaning editors. How does one post a notification to one without canvassing? How does one request help editing an article with POV problems without canvassing and POV pushing themself? It just can't be done. So... See below. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment The DYK section has far less contributors and reviewers than during its heyday. Every once in a while I look at the main page and think there are some awful DYK hooks. But this case is just silly: a neutral hook was already presented there, the real issue seems to be whether the topic is wanted on the main page or not at all for political reasons. It's like downvoting or upvoting in Reddit, and there aren't enough DYK regulars to actually process the nom fairly. A broken process, but not something that can be fixed with complaining about one POV comment at ANI. --Pudeo (talk) 08:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, you might think this case is silly if you didn't read more than just the headline and formed an opinion without looking at the evidence provided. This is not about how DYK works. It's about an editor inappropriately using Wikipedia for advocacy. Here's another example: [104] related to [105]. - MrX 🖋 12:37, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    If we're going to explicitly permit wikiprojects that promote a well-defined political POV (as per the below subsection), then I fail to see how efforts to grow and maintain that project can be demonized here.
    Don't get me wrong: I do see the diffs you posted here (and above) as evincing a certain level of political POV pushing. But I just don't see how we can say "it's okay to have these sorts of wikiprojects, it's just not okay to use them, maintain them or grow them." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:02, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposal: Ban Wikiproject conservatism, as well as any existing or future politically-aligned wikiprojects

    Not going to happen. ansh666 07:04, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I wouldn't ban newsletters such as Lionel's The Right Stuff, or punish editors who have participated in them, but such wikiprojects are inherently incapable of being neutral, and cannot help but encourage POV pushing. Therefore Support as nom. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Show me the policy that states that the WikiProject Council is the only way to ban a wikiproject. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:49, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    No. Not even close. I'm talking about banning only projects that state a political alignment. Look at the list by K.e.Coffman, below. That's pretty much it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    What the ever loving fuck are you on about? I explicitly called out any liberal wikiprojects as well. Maybe you should start reading before you !vote, FFS. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Irondome, why do some people think it cute to sneer with "safe spaces"? Are you seriously trying to trigger the liberal snowflakes that you think can't handle debate? Will you combine this with clamoring for #civility at the same time you're trying to insult your opponent, whoever that may be? That you are a valued longtime contributor does not give you a license to troll. Drmies (talk) 04:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Leaning oppose We should likely address the issues one project at a time when they arise rather than prevent them. Some could also argue that WP:SKEPTIC may be politically motivated, even if we know that there can be different standards... —PaleoNeonate – 00:10, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    -- that seems about it. There aren't that many of them; raze them all to the ground. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: Wikipedia is already infamous for its political articles promoting liberalism and silencing anyone who strays from the herd. You can see it here, with editors and even mods citing a bunch of shit that Lionel has said that has nothing to do with the DYK nomination, trying to get rid of him so they don't have to worry about dissent anymore. I even got threatened by a mod for daring to say that Calton and Binkers should be given a chance to retract their aspersions and sloppy accusations of logging out to edit, lest they get blocked for openly flaunting the rules. Banning a project dedicated to help build articles related to conservatism does nothing to help Wikipedia rehabilitate its image. The mere suggestion is chilling. Jerry the Bellybutton Elf (talk) 00:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Very Swiftian of you K.E! Kill them all and let God sort them out springs to mind also..Irondome (talk) 00:31, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Let's be realistic, if we are going to open the door to starting banning wikiprojects for trying to push agenda's that we dont agree with - thats going to kill every minority/special interest wikiproject out there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:41, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. I'm only in favor of shutting down WikiProject Conservatism because of its demonstrated bias. I'm not in favor of doing the same thing to unproblematic WikiProjects. Binksternet (talk) 00:45, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Much better to enable/support admins working in the relevant AE areas to deal with individual editors, and that would include editors whose POV seems obvious when they say bullshit like this, "Wikipedia is already infamous for its political articles promoting liberalism and silencing anyone who strays from the herd" (infamous? not in reliable sources; stop reading the things you read). Things like the DYK here can be handled in the usual way if indeed they are POV pushing/BLP violations etc. I am bothered by the trickery advertised on that DYK page--but surely a few experienced DYK editors can act on that. That leaves the matter of the editor who is center stage here, an editor who thinks it's acceptable to throw around coded barnstars, which one might well argue are a kind of harassment; arbitration is the most likely place to address that. Thank you Black Kite for bringing this to our attention. Drmies (talk) 00:48, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm happy you voted against this ridiculous proposal but just so you know I read the far-left stuff also. TonyBallioni admitted that Wikipedia is advocating for liberalism and campaigns for Democrats, and I think he's even a mod. It's not bullshit. Don't believe me? I can go to the Donald Trump article, ping 50 editors from the talk page, and tell you exactly who agrees with you that Wikipedia is fair and balanced, and tell you who agrees with me and TonyBallioni. The vote will be along party lines. This is an editor driven project, and if most editors are liberal, of course the articles will slant liberal. Jerry the Bellybutton Elf (talk) 01:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    My friend Drmies knows me well enough to know that I do not believe Wikipedia is promoting "liberalism" and "campaigns for Democrats", Jerry the Bellybutton Elf, but for those who do not know me as well as the good doctor, what I actually said was en.wiki has a reputation for leaning slightly left, so showing that we do have neutral coverage of conservatives/things criticizing liberals and leftists is a good thing (emphasis added). You'll notice multiple layers of nuance there. I really don't like being cited for saying something I did not say. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, you go from one false claim to the next, "TonyBallioni admitted that Wikipedia is advocating for liberalism and campaigns for Democrats". Moreover, you repeat these post-truth kinds of things about editors' politics determining content, as if neutrality and reliable sources mean nothing. I'm thinking of a few things here. One is an alphabet soup containing FORUM, NPA, CIR, POV, and other such combinations. The second is, really, NOTHERE, and if you voluntarily go to the Trump talk page you're either a masochist or you need a hobby. The third is--well, I can't help but wonder who you are and who you were. Drmies (talk) 04:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The Sammies were intended to be another type of Wikilove. Noone to my knowledge has ever complained. I never imagined it could be viewed as a form of harassment by my fellow editors. Now that this has been brought to my attention I will of course stop doing this.– Lionel(talk) 01:49, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no doubt they were a kind of Wikilove; it's just that Wikipedia should be inclusive of all kinds of love, and you know as well as I do what mention of that restaurant in this kind of context means. Thank you for not doing that anymore. Drmies (talk) 04:21, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good idea. Wikiprojects that primarily exist as an avenue for politically like-minded editors to coordinate action ought not be a thing. Wikiproject Conservatism ought definitely be removed. It's worthwhile to examine whether the WikiProjects listed by K.e.coffman are similar, and if they are then they ought be removed too. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:53, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Moral support, practical (mild) oppose Politically oriented wikiprojects are the source of much debate and strife (not to mention bad content). But they have a use in helping us to identify bad actors and providing diffs to support imposition of sanctions. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:57, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose the general case, per Drmies, but also along the lines of SBHB above. There's no reason that the Conservatism project couldn't be a project that does what it is supposed to be doing, which is neutrally improving articles about conservative-related subjects, instead of being a political advocacy site within Wikipedia. If this has become the case, then the editors who have made it into that need to be dealt with by administrators with the tools available to them. Just as MILHIST is not a bad thing, despite the recent behavior of some of its coordinators, CONSERVATISM can be a useful part of Wikipedia, despite the editors who are using it as a power base -- but action needs to be taken against them whenever it is appropriate. The nuclear option is too radical at this point. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I will also say that we need a better mechanism for monitoring what the numerous WikiProjects are doing. At this time it seems as if they are founded, and then no one from the outside pays any attention to them after that. The Wiki Project Council? Does it actually do anything? Does it even exist? Who's on it? What's its function? Does it have a co-ordinator, or officers of any kind? Even the puniest WikiProject has a list of people who has signed up for it, WPC doesn't seem to have anything like that. It doesn't seem to have any authority of any kind over anything. Where was the WPC when Kumioko was trying to usurp all state WikiProjects and fold them into WikiProject United States? There have been a number of ArbCom cases which have touched on the question of what WikiProjects can and can't do - why have I never seen a representative of the Wiki Project Council comment on those cases?
      If the Wiki Project Council is in that state of non-being, we should either get rid of it, or revitalize it into a vehicle for assuring that WikiProjects are doing what they're intended to do, and not turning into power centers for various ideological viewpoints. If conservative-leaning, or liberal-leaning, or socialist-leaning Wikipedia editors want to hang out with their ideological brethren, they can do so off-Wiki. Any on-wiki organization should be focused entirely on improving Wikipedia, not on political or ideological advocacy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I understand why political wikiprojects may be a problem, but without them will POV pushers not just organize off wiki? POV pushers need to be dealt with by admins on an individual basis, I feel like the limited benefit of banning political wikiprojects will be outweighed by the can of worms that this could open (who decides which projects are political? I just see this creating a massive and unnecessary controversy). If we only ban certain political wikiprojects, but allow others, POV pushers (or just people with subtle biases) will try to ban the ones they disagree with, damaging the neutrality and credibility of the encyclopedia. Tornado chaser (talk) 02:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I think shutting down the wikiproject would actually result in the opposite of the desired outcome. Right-leaning editors who already feel they are under attack could easily interpret this as proof that Wikipedia is systemically biased against them, and I don't think that would improve the BATTLEGROUND feeling that has become normal at many political articles. On the other hand I could see myself supporting a topic ban of some form for LionelT specifically. They stated above that the purpose of the Wikiproject is to improve articles about conservatism, period; but that's not what I'm seeing. Looking at the latest two issues of The Right Stuff, in the June issue I see scorekeeping on which editors from either side got sanctioned recently under the story about the rouge admin who accused right-leaning editors of being Russian agents. In the July issue there is a story about Wikiproject Conservatism coming "under fire" at AN/I side by side with a story of how only 27% of editors are happy with the way disputes are resolved at AN/I, saying the dissatisfaction was due in part to "'defensive cliques' and biased administrators". I don't think fear mongering, score keeping, and one-sided cheer leading fits into our goal of collaborative editing to improve the encyclopedia. ~Awilley (talk) 02:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose (non-admin editor) Everything is political. Wikipedia:WikiProject Feminism is political. Wikipedia:Systemic bias is political. Wikipedia:WikiProject Socialism is political. What is needed is enforcement of Wikipedia:Canvassing, and if that happens to depopulate a particular Wikiproject that's incidental. Stuartyeates (talk) 02:42, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: per above statements by Beyond My Ken and SBHB. They have stated the case far better than I could. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 03:09, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: Political bias is one of the strongest biases there is. Rather than have people try and pretend that they don't have it, letting people be open about it can contribute to the WP:POLE process. If all sides of the political spectrum push then we can get something that approaches being balanced. AlphabeticThing9 (talk) 03:15, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Moral support - I understand the reason behind it, but I do not believe you will achieve the desired affects. If WikiProjects like the Conservatism Project are indeed being used for canvassing and POV-pushing, we need better mechanisms to effectively address them. We need to focus on specific editors and break up the little cliques they form.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Ideological categories don't exactly lend themselves to cohesive stylistic or assessment standards, which are major components of a Wikiproject. This type of project can cover anything from biographies to political parties to books to legislation, and it just doesn't make sense to write a style guide that would apply to all of these areas. If your goal is to improve biographies about conservative politicians, for example, it would make sense to work within the Biographies project which already has well-established practices and editors with relevant experience. This would also mean contributing your perspective to a diverse group of editors which is the stated goal of most of these political Wikiprojects.
    If we're going to ban any project, it should be part of a larger conversation about the purpose of Wikiprojects and what sort of behavior is acceptable. I would prefer to first address the problematic editors and only consider sanctioning the project if the canvassing, POV pushing, etc. continues. WikiProject Firearms would be an example of a project that has made numerous positive contributions to weaponry topics while also using its style guide to impose a certain POV across a large number of articles. After community consensus was clarified and a few problematic editors were sanctioned, the POV pushing has largely died down and the remaining flareups don't have the pseudo-official support of the project. –dlthewave ☎ 04:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per Drmies and Awilley and others. However, all WikiProjects need to be informed that their purpose must be to improve the quality of articles under their area of interest, in full compliance with our policies and guidelines, especially the neutral point of view. It is entirely legitimate for feminists (and others) to gather together to improve NPOV articles about notable women, and for conservatives (and others) to gather together to improve NPOV articles about notable conservatives. The same is true of monarchists, Marxists and liberals, if improving neutral policy-compliant content is the goal of their joint efforts. Using the main page to promote a political ideology is wrong. Scorekeeping on the basis of an editor's perceived or stated political ideology is wrong. That behavior must stop. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:46, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Just having a certain politic focus is not a reason to block a project as that same logic could apply to any other ideologically driven project. We can judge if a project broadly is engaging in inappropirate activies and close it, but that should be based on evidenced behavior. --Masem (t) 04:54, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose for a variety of reasons above. You don't think that Wiki Project Liberalism has POV issues? Why not work to make it more neutral instead of ditching it and stripping the members of the project of their hard work. JC7V7DC5768 (talk) 05:13, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose WikiProjects at their best attempt to improve articles, according to NPOV and all other policies and guidelines. There's no inherent reason to me a politically oriented WikiProject couldn't do that and in looking at the Talk Page and A Class review at WikiProject Conservative I don't see any subtext suggesting otherwise. If the DYK article has the support of the project members the advice there strikes me as aggressive but not out of line and in keeping with a project's hope to coordinate improvement to articles in its scope. The other WikiProjects named by Ke mostly seem dormant or inactive with Liberterian being the only one to raise eyebrows for me. But that alone doesn't just a ban on projects in this area. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 06:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I think this is a serious over-reaction. What this needs is admins policing the poor behaviour, not banning of WikiProjects. In any case, I think it would have to go to the WikiProject Council. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:13, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. I haven't seen him too much around but for the little I saw he looked really constructive. There's no reason we would ban an established editor for making too many DYKs about republican topics. I'ts the whole point of DYK. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:20, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    ponyo insult: i dont think you're reading or comprehending any of the policies

    Not an insult. Pls listen--Ymblanter (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I was editing Ross Mathews and disagreed with FlightTime about it. Ponyo supports FlighTime. Another editor CFred is mediating. Now Ponyo is posting insults in the discussion between Cfed and I on Cfred page. Ad hominem attacks. This is the insult/. I feel Ponyo should be warned. Isnt it an admin or trusted editor supposed to know better? Do better. These titles shouldnot go to ones head. Thank you. 2601:155:8300:1659:4536:B605:9536:DB40 (talk) 19:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    @Ymblanter: although this remark is probably worthy of a boomerang in itself... —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 19:10, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    They have already been warned after that attack [106]. May be they could realize they need to stop.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:15, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    You mean the warning that they blanked with the edit summary "stay away and read! your friend ponyo is the one attacking which i am sure you are happy about!" I'm not sure they are realizing they need to stop; their personal attack is absolutely uncalled for and I would have hoped for an immediate block to prevent further disruption. Lourdes 19:26, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not comfortable blocking this IP now (which can of course change in 10 minutes), but any other administrator can block if they feel this necessary.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:35, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Ymblanter, thanks. Just for information, they've already crossed 5RR on Ross Mathews, reverting every editor multiple times including the administrator discussing with them. I would hope such disruptive behaviour is immediately arrested. Lourdes 19:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Arrested? Are we cops? One day before retirement... I'm too old for this. --Tarage (talk) 19:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The article of the bahai faith (before I edited it moments ago) called homosexuality a handicap, called conversion therapy "overcoming homosexuality", it labeled it as liberal

    I think most would reach the conclusion it's a deeply biased article that at one point (during the "Overcoming of homosexuality" [conversion therapy] section) describes homosexuality as "a handicap". If It described being black, Jewish or a woman as a handicap the bias would be clear almost immediately and condemned by everyone. That is their opinion, it is not the opinion of most medical professionals, zoologists, scientists and historians, and people in general.

    Before editing it called homosexuality "liberal sex" and the Abrahamic sexual ethics as traditional, despite homosexuality predating Liberalism, Abrahamic religion and modernity by thousands of years. I don't think a monkey or lion having sex with another male monkey or lion in the wild are Liberals. They're using modern and superstitious human outlook on these things to declare them a creation of modernity and rejection of tradition, which makes absolutely no sense.

    The article also argued homosexuals are treated fairly by the religion when they objectively aren't. When you have heterosexuals who can marry, have sex and enjoy life, but homosexuals need to go through conversion therapy, remain lonely and abstain from all sexual urges, that isn't equal and the same for both of them. It's objectively the opposite. They need to say what they actually believe and not write biasedly.

    Finally, the greatest gem, it said "on his behalf encouraged those with a homosexual orientation to overcome the handicap " Homosexuality isn't a handicap. It isn't a mental disorder, it's found in 1500 species, predates the laws of Abrahamic cultures and the concession on that has changed among most medical professionals, international bodies, zoologists and historians, and people on the planet in general.

    Before editing they had a section called "overcoming homosexuality", which describes using doctor assistance and spiritual practices to become heterosexual. That is literally just conversion therapy, and again, by calling it "overcoming homosexuality" and portraying it as something innocent the article displays indefinite bias. If your religion endorses the practice (which it does), say it does, don't tap dance around the issue and write articles saying it doesn't.

    To put the cherry on the top, they argue constantly they are against discrimination against gays, while calling it an aberration, promoting conversion and celibacy.


    –I call on the administrations to lock this article from further editing and correct any bias they find. Gay people and their rights are now being seen akin to that of Jews, and these sorts of biased articles are utterly unacceptable.– — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msdgsdgwer134234 (talk • contribs) 01:02, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    huh? John from Idegon (talk) 01:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    He's asking that administrators lock the article he just edited so no one can change it from his version, which is better, since the previous version was based entirely on primary sources and told from a Baha'i perspective, while his includes totally unsourced and coatrack-y statements to balanced it out. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:41, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I am very tempted to undo the changes but also either put in quotes or make more clear that the religion considers homosexuality a handicap, not that it actually is one, which is horrible in it's own right. There's a middle ground that can be established here, and it is NOT what this editor has done or is requesting. --Tarage (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Also the talk page needs a massive cleanup because holy hell those walls of text. --Tarage (talk) 02:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
     Erledigt Lots of big red numbers in the history - X201 (talk) 16:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Apart from the persistent inclusion of Baha'i related sections in many articles, the articles about the group and its doctrines themselves are a dark corner where few editors have interest but adherents. Related articles are often not encyclopedic (I did not check their state very recently). One that I remember was a rant against the fact that it is synchretic, supported by citations of an author of the movement. Another was about calling their proselytism "teaching"... About inserting references to it everywhere, they tend to be presented as a separate major world religion (rather than under Islam); but some sources also consider them separate. This often introduces a weight issue where a small article has a section dedicated to an obscure group (except on Wikipedia). This has been a concern of mine but is something I felt powerless about, other than when seeing new material inserted in articles where it seems out of place and I can contest that particular case. Some articles that do not appear related to the movement were also initially created based on a source from it, such as Comparison of the founders of religious traditions. I assume that all this might better belong at a non-admin noticeboard, but this was also an opportunity for more experienced eyes... —PaleoNeonate - 02:50, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    User:PaleoNeonate I agree with your assessment. If you AFD Comparison of the founders of religious traditions I'll support it. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:46, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    He's right that the reference to "handicap" is not clearly part of the quote. I can fix that. He also introduced some problems that need cleanup. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:48, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Ledinhvuchelsea refusal to use edit summaries

    At article 2018–19 Chelsea F.C. season, User:Ledinhvuchelsea has made hundreds of edits and has not once used an edit summary. Despite requests on their talk page (to which they haven't responded) and in my own edit summaries, they seem unwilling to alter their practice. Flat Out (talk) 01:54, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    OUTing attempt, aspersions - refusal to remove after being asked

    Making behavioral conclusions that connect accounts and IP addresses through edit histories is not outing. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I have an editor here named Binksternet who tried to WP:OUT me as a resident of Washington, D.C. and falsely accused me of editing from the State Department.[107] Natureium and Awilley pointed out that this obviously doesn't make sense, but Binksternet didn't agree...in fact he doubled down[108], and said that his conspiracy theory is in some way supported by the fact that the IP edited my draft before it was moved to the main project. I said earlier that he should have a chance to retract his statement before he gets punished for what he did[109], but he seems to be under the impression that he did nothing wrong, and he can say whatever he wants about whoever he wants and it's the burden of the OUTing target to prove that they don't deserve aspersions. I don't know what the best solution is but at the minimum Binksternet's conspiracy theories should be removed, and he should demonstrate that he understands that this kind of behavior is just not acceptable on Wikipedia before he is permitted to resume editing. Jerry the Bellybutton Elf (talk) 02:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Since you seem to have arrived here fully-grown, like Athena springing from the head of Zeus, with great knowledge about Wikipedia's ways, perhaps you'd like to assure us that you are indeed a brand new editor with no history of editing under any other account name before your account was created on 14 June 2018, when, with only your second edit to Wikipedia, [110] you created the fully-formed article Inspector General report on FBI and DOJ actions in the 2016 election. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:29, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Concerning Binksternet's comment, here's the chronology:
    • On 22:11, 14 June 2018‎ you create the article noted above
    • You go on to make 8 edits to it in the next 33 minutes
    • Ten minutes after your last edit in that sequence, an IP editor makes a typographical correction [111], this to an article which has only existed for 43 minutes, and which no one else but you has edited, and no one else would have any reason to know exists
    • The IP, 169.253.194.1, geolocates to the U.S. Department of State
    • You continue editing the article 21 minutes later, making 8 more edits in the next half hour [112]
    Now, editing Wikipedia, signing out, going back to make a correction without remembering to sign in, then signing in to continue editing is a very frequent sequence of events -- we've all done it at one time or another. It's pretty darn typical. So for Binskternet to assume that the IP was you is a reasonable conclusion to draw from the evidence, and since the IP geolocates to the State Department, it's a matter of concern: we're always on the lookout for our articles being skewed by editors with a political agenda to serve, and those editing from within the United States government (especially this United States government) is a definite red flag for that, so I don't at all blame Binksternet for bringing it to the community's attention. Of course, the sequence of events does not prove that the IP was you, but it certainly is a very reasonable interpretation of the evidence. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:46, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not that it matters, but I have been reading Wikipedia for years. I went to go read the IG report article, saw there wasn't one, so took the initiative and created it. It's not that difficult. Nice to see you agree with Binkster, and you even somehow managed to sneak in a little cheap shot at Trump, but your grassy knoll/magic bullet timeline up there doesn't resolve the aspersions and attempted outing. I'll wait for a mod, thanks. Jerry the Bellybutton Elf (talk) 03:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, there's one I have never heard before "I've been reading Wikipedia for years, that's how I know all the ins and outs and how to write a near-perfect article on my very first try." Uh-huh.
    Oh: it's "Binksternet" not "Binkster" -- but you knew that. No, you're not a POV editor, not at all. But -- just so you know -- you're way off track with the "grassy knoll/magic bullet timeline" comment, since the timeline is completely straight-forward and very easy for anyone to read. Even the Warren Commission would have no problem with it, probably even Devin Nunes could figure it out (in time, anyway). There's really very little chance of your distracting attention from it by throwing magic confetti in the air and telling us to look over there. But keep trying if you like.
    BTW, you never did comment on whether you've ever had another account. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Seems kinda strange that in the thread above, you strongly deny any association with DC, but now you are being outed because it was written? Kinda almost demands that old standard prosecutor's question: Were you lying then or are you lying now? John from Idegon (talk) 02:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Attempted OUTing, John. Attempted. Kinda almost makes one wonder if you read the report or if you're here just to try to stir up some trouble to distract from Binkster's refusal to correct his mistakes. Jerry the Bellybutton Elf (talk) 03:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    First off, I didn't "out" Jerry the Bellybutton Elf. I said it appeared to me that he was editing from an IP associated with the US State Dept in Washington DC. There are a lot of people who use that IP – its edit history represents a dizzying array of topics, interests, styles, etc. So the identity of Jerry is not revealed.
    Second, I did not accuse Jerry of using the notional State Dept position to edit in a biased fashion, though further examination of his work shows a distinct pro-Trump slant. It seems that Jerry is mad that I would say he was affiliated with the State Dept, but I don't understand why, since that department is huge, and it contains people who hold contradictory and opposing views. Personally, I don't care where Jerry is located and who he are his associates, as his contributions here speak for themselves.
    Finally, my only intent was to address the possibility raised by Black Kite's initial report about Lionelt helping Jerry get his DYK together. One unspoken implication was that Jerry was a sockpuppet of Lionelt, and I felt that this could not be the case, so I expressed that view. I did not say there was a conspiracy between them. Binksternet (talk) 03:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Just ignore this stuff. He's not fooling anybody, so the less attention paid the better. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    I am not familiar with this page, I just saw it in the edit filter, but an edit war just escalated to a legal threat[113] and I am not sure how this kind of thing is dealt with. Tornado chaser (talk) 03:11, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    @Tornado chaser: You've done the right thing, this is the noticeboard to report legal threats to. LinguistunEinsuno (Linguist111) 03:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    per WP:DOLT, is there a problem with the article? Tornado chaser (talk)
    Ruckman espoused a fairly extreme theological position so it is understandable that his supporters and his opponents are disagreeing intensely. Ruckman's son seems to have committed murder/suicide so his detractors would like to add that to his biography to discredit him. It ain't easy. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    User biting newcomers with warning templates

    It's a different LTA, now reblocked. —DoRD (talk)​ 10:53, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Starkarrow (talk · contribs) has been constructively reverting vandalism and unconstructive edits but has been giving out inappropriate warnings. After noticing that every single warning they gave was either a level 4 or level 4-im ([114][115][116] and more), and that a number of edits appeared to just be tests or minor disruption (nothing severe at all [117][118][119][120][121]), I gave them a notice about biting newcomers, to which they responded by likening the editors to criminals and then saying they deserve to be severely punished. I told them to read WP:WARN [122], removed the warnings they gave (and got reverted [123][124][125]) and warned them about the misuse of warning templates [126] after they reverted me. They templated me [127] and added sockpuppet tags to two userpages [128][129], which I reverted and then I pointed out WP:LOGOUT to them [130]. And then finally, they started giving out undue level 4 warnings again [131][132]. This behaviour shows a lack of WP:AGF along with a battleground mentality. LinguistunEinsuno (Linguist111) 03:55, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    ([133]) This is not even remotely okay. User needs a time out. --Tarage (talk) 04:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Could this be another user:ItsLassieTime sock, carrying on where User:RandNetter96 left off? The rapid-fire reversion behaviour seems similar. 86.147.197.31 (talk) 04:32, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you're on to something. --Tarage (talk) 04:33, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Politically-motivated and defamatory pages at Wikiquote being auto-linked here?

    Thebow (talk · contribs) has been making a small number of apparently benign edits on Wikipedia, but their main area of interest is creating WP:COATRACK pages over at Wikiquote, where they created:

    • a page on James Gunn that consisted of a decade-old tweet that appeared to be making light of rape/pedophilia (which I've requested speedied, but apparently things move slower over there),
    • a page on Jeffrey Epstein that consisted of a benign non-quote by the subject himself and a quote from Bill Clinton about what a great guy he is (coming from five years before Epstein was convicted of soliciting an underage girl for prostitution),
    • a page on Huston Huddleston that similarly served no purpose but to artificially smear Gunn by associating him with a person who had been charged with child pornography and contacting a minor with intent to commit a felony,
    • a page on James Clapper that consists of a single quote from a right-leaning newspaper article entitled "Did Obama, Brennan And Clinton Illegally Collude To Take Trump Down?",
    • and so on.

    I'm not sure if anything can be done about the editor responsible here, nor am I asking for such (I already did ask how to address it at Wikiquote, and have yet to receive an answer because apparently no one watches the Wikiquote village pump...), but the Wikiquote pages he is creating are getting linked from our articles, apparently automatically, by Risto hot sir (talk · contribs) and perhaps others, apparently acting in good faith.

    Any idea how problems like this are normally addressed?

    Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikiquote has always been subject to this kind of POV coatracking. Personally, I've long felt we should generally deprecate links to Wikiquote, or even better, simply delete the {{wikiquote}} template. Wikiquote is an external website with no functioning NPOV or notability policies, no editorial oversight, and most crucially, no possible encyclopedic or educational value whatsoever. Let's face it, collecting "quotations" without embedding context, without contextualization, and without any overarching guiding principle, simply isn't a worthwhile intellectual endeavor that promotes knowledge in any reasonable sense. Just because that site happens to be run by the Wikimedia Foundation doesn't mean it should be exempt from our content criteria for external links, which it falls short of by a couple hundred miles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Well judging from the response to Hijiri88's comments, people at Wikiquote seem to think that use of their site to host attack pages is perfectly acceptable behaviour - we should remove all links to Wikiquote.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:54, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Would support a proposal not to link to Wikiquote in Wikipedia articles if this is acceptable (it isn't the first time I've seen Wikiquote used this way). If sister sites simply aren't holding content to the same kinds of standards as Wikipedia, the basic fact that they are also hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation should not be a loophole through our content policies. Wikiquote serves a useful purpose, but it's not building a neutral, verifiable encyclopedia. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:13, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Pinging the names I recognize as Wikipedians among the enwq admins, in case they have insight on the matter: @Koavf, FloNight, and BD2412: — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would strongly disagree with the suggestion that Wikiquote lacks editorial oversight. The vast majority of Wikiquote pages are useful collection of quotes relating to a variety of subjects for which such a collection is reasonable (I have personally overseen the integration of the complete pre-1921 editions of Bartlett's and Hoyt's quotations into the project, as well as several other public domain compilations). Our notability criteria is actually stricter than Wikipedia's, since we generally use inclusion in Wikipedia as a baseline, and require quotability on top of that. To the extent that the collection contains a handful of pages for which the quotes are selected with obvious biases in mind, I would point out that just like Wikipedia, anyone can edit Wikiquote, including to provide balance to pages by removing unsourced quotes, adding further relevant quotes, or providing missing context for sourced quotes. bd2412 T 18:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    User talk page unreadable

    Special:LintErrors were cleaned up and Pudeo created an archive as well - nothing else to do here. Thank you, — xaosflux Talk 18:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This is what the page looks like to me

    Is it just me, or is this user talk page completely unreadable? How is one supposed to communicate with someone when the page is unreadable? Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    I thought that's just a bug with my browser, but it must be a bug with the Wiki software then. I haven't done any changes which would have altered it that way, and I just opened a version of it from late 2016 and it had the same bug too, although it worked fine until recently. Weird, but that's not intentional from me.--Pudeo (talk) 09:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) Well, that's good. I've noticed a recent difference in the way the software deals with unclosed tags such as <s> and <u> It used to close the tag at some point automatically, but now I don't think it does that -- someone (can;t recall who) has been going around closing tags in various places. I noticed it recently on User:Beyond_My_Ken/thoughts, which had been rendering fine, but suddenly had a bunch of text underlines and stuff. When I investigated I found unclosed tags, and once I closed them everything was fine.
    In your case, since the text is getting smaller and smaller, it looks like there might be unclosed <small> tage -- maybe in your MILHIST newsletter notifications? Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:28, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Pudeo: With your permission, would you allow me to go through and try to fix this? I'm seeing some unclosed tags in some of the mass messages.. Nzd (talk) 09:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Please do so, or anyone for that matter. However, given that it worked fine until recently and now even the old versions don't work, there is a possibility some of the templates used have been vandalized or unintentionally broken. --Pudeo (talk) 09:23, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec)Pudeo the page is extremely long, you should archive or delete old sections that are no longer currently relevant. Twelve-year-old discussions are simply "clutter". Reducing the page size might actually resolve the font size problem. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:25, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't like how archives and removals are being used to sweep warnings or criticism under the carpet. Anyway, it seems to have been fixed, thanks. --Pudeo (talk) 09:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#HTML_formatting_issues_in_archived_talk_pages - the way the software deals with incorrectly closed out HTML tags has closed - I fixed some <small> tags but it looks like there is something else associated with the MilHist Bugle notifications.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:31, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, pre-Aug 11 Bugles had incorrectly nested span and center tags. Fixed for Pudeo, but this will affect many other talk pages. BethNaught (talk) 09:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, and because they get subst'd rather than linked as a template, it becomes very hard to fix. Probably a bot job. Fish+Karate 09:37, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec) Looks fine to me now, thanks BethNaught. Coincidentally, I'm having a little trouble with my eyes right now, so I was not happy to see that teensy-weensy font size. @Pudeo: You can go ahead and delete my notice on your talk page about this, if you'd like to, glad it's cleared up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Well done all. I only went to make some tea and you lot fixed it! Nzd (talk) 09:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    While we're here, are there any hard and fast rules about (user) talkpage size? I don't want to get the pitchforks out, but I have come across other very long pages in the past that would benefit from a spring clean. TIA. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 12:11, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    You mean the one visible from space? (EEng) It takes my computer a solid 30 seconds to save that page. Natureium (talk) 12:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Agghhh! I'll make a note not to click that one again! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 16:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Hostile behavior in the Middle East section

    The editors in this section are rude and unhelpful. This one in particular seems to be on every page and is very confrontational and rude.This is what he wrote on my page: "Well, you know, I looked at the article and changed my mind. It is a piece of crap and should be deleted. There is nothing in it that can be usefully merged anywhere either. As for your editing, imagine moaning about one editor who didn't know about the fires, while not even mentioning the 136 people, mostly unarmed civilians, who have been shot dead and hundreds more maimed for life on the Gazan side of the border. That is exactly the sort of extreme bias that we don't want around here. Go away." Zerotalk 15:13, 25 July 2018 (UTC) --Jane955 (talk) 13:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    WP:CIR. nableezy - 14:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Seconded.--WaltCip (talk) 14:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Is the article referred to as 'crap' the one created by Jane955 as '2018 Gaza–Israel conflict' (now a redirect to 2018 Gaza border protests? If so, I'd have to suggest that while the word used to describe it might not be appropriate, the sentiment was. Not only does it appear to have been a POV fork of an existing article, but it seems to have consisted almost entirely of material copy-pasted in violation of copyright. [134] 86.147.197.31 (talk) 14:37, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Note that the bolding is not mine. This editor created a POV-fork at 2018 Gaza–Israel conflict (now redirected to a different article by Galatz) with material that might have come right out of the mouths of the Israeli government. In fact, lots of it did. She didn't even adopt the least pretence of balance: "The UN that did not defend Israel against the ravaging fires was quick to criticize Israel for closing the Kerem Shalom crossing." A large amount of the article was later deleted and revdelled by Diannaa as copyright violation. Some was just arrant nonsense: "Attacking Israel is a good financial investment for Hamas". Editing in the Mideast part of Wikipedia is difficult enough without having to waste time on this type of rubbish. As for my choice of words, when I saw that she ignored over a hundred deaths on one side but included damage to a chicken coup on the other side, I got annoyed. Yes, she should go away; that's my honest opinion. Zerotalk 15:10, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Already been done. For post-1932 politics of the United States, BLPs (in relation to Jane955 using talk pages as a forum, which was the reason for a one-week block), and the Arab–Israeli conflict [135]. Doesn't seem to have had much effect. 86.147.197.31 (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    This was done. For example, here [136] they were informed of the 30/500 rule and told they could not edit anything on this subject. They admitting knowing about the rule here [137] which they circumvented by just creating a fork page. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:44, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I was going to say a minimum of a final warning should be given, but it seems the editor now has ECP status Special:Log/Jane955 so it's a bit pointless. Ironically they don't actually currently have 500 live edits [138] due to deleted edits I presume some are that now deleted article. However they're so closed that it doesn't seem worth worrying about that either. As for the original violation, if they had clearly admitted to intentionally bypassing ECP I might say a block was justified but the above comment seems ambiguous whether they actually understood ECP applied to all Israel/Palestine articles, or they just thought it applied to those which it had been applied to. Nil Einne (talk) 18:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Junk edits from public library IP

    I don't think there's been enough recent activity for a block from AIV, but all recent edits from 24.89.136.195 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) have been junk, and mostly outside of mainspace. The talk page suggests it belongs to a public library, so can it be blocked for a while? Thanks. Home Lander (talk) 16:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

     Erledigt, blocked for a month to start with--Ymblanter (talk) 16:21, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    More than 100 reverts on one article today

    Both editors blocked for edit-warring.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:15, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This article is experiencing a very strong edit war today. Some admin intervention is needed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:05, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    This article as well. The two editors might have warred against each other on other similar articles as well. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict × 3) We're too slow, Drmies, they've both already been blocked by Sarahj2107. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:17, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    And I protected the page for one day. Oh well, I'll go back and lift the protection. - Donald Albury 17:24, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Rangeblock? Serbian IP song vandalism

    Someone using Serbian IPs has been making unreferenced claims about various songs being based on the same melody as various other songs. The person often self-reverts, but not always. Other music vandalism is sometimes thrown in.[139] Can we get a rangeblock? Involved IPs listed below. Binksternet (talk) 19:03, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Communion and Liberation long term edit war, meat sock and User:Jasmir54 other behavior

    Long story short, i first discovered the article by wiki-link from bank regarding the conspiracy theory (or accusation) on the society "controlling" the bank, which this historical version in June (846798991) is full of uncited borderline defamation material, so i tagged for maintenance.

    And then "new" user Jasmir54 was created and at first it those edits were good faith edits (except removing one of the tag in one of the first edit Special:Diff/847293956) and again in Special:Diff/849739062. He never responded to my request (by tagging in article, talk page), to add back page number of the books he added, instead he started an edit war with GioA90 in mid-July, another new account that recently created. I can see the lengthy discussion (Talk:Communion and Liberation#Citations Usage and Talk:Communion and Liberation#NPV Violations and Factual Accuracy) on sourcing the content, and the wording difference between "court ruling" (which is a "fact" status version of the "story/history") and "accusation", but Jasmir54 just replied a bot like unrelated response such as "Thanks for your contributions, please proper source your references. Thanks you are invited to the Teahouse" instead of properly discussed with GioA90 for which source is good or bad (or tabloid journalism) or some sort. It get worse on assuming good faith is, he started to claim himself joined wikipedia many years ago, as well one of his very first edit, AFC submitting Draft:Amos Genish, which the original article Amos Genish, was actually created by blocked sock, which the draft is also associated with blocked Ultimateuserxx.

    The case got even worse on the emerge with yet another account Lotuspwr33 (talk · contribs), which just use to send user talk message, as well as Techairtc (talk · contribs) which was caught by checkuser already. Lastly, Lzzy303 entered the edit warring and may be a meat sock.

    To sum up, how to deal with the edit war when the parties did not really use talk page to discuss the matter, as well as the behavior of User:Jasmir54 and his other vandalism edit such as this Special:Diff/852000698? Matthew_hk tc 19:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC) (19:24, 26 July 2018 (UTC) comment edited)[reply]

    Good point, Matthew. I am more than open to discussion, if Jasmir54 tries to answer my points and tells me where and why he disagrees, I shall be all ears and see on what I agree, on what to change my mind, on what I disagree...but unfortunately this has felt like a long monologueGioA90 (talk) 19:22, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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