Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

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Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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A recreation of Bhaktivedanta Narayana/Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami, which was deleted for the fourth time in 2010.

From a quick scan of the non-primary sources, I don't see how the guru in question has increased in notability since 2010 (particularly since he died that year), though I'm happy to be proven wrong. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:12, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

The sources in the article are all written by a disciple of Narayana's, a Swami Madhava, with the only semi-independent ref (#19) coming from the defunct Vaishnava News Network (although even that looks like a reprinted press release submitted by another disciple). Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:20, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Formatting added by Berrely

• Comment ~ Dear Dasanudasa - Actually his notability is on the increase, as it is his Centennial celebration next year. Please find over 4000 of his mp3 lectures and 2000 videos of him here: http://srilanarayanmaharaja.com/archive-project-info/ . I cannot see why someone not 'notable' would have such an archive published online. ShyamDasUK 22.00, 01 October 2020 (BST)

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2020 September 28. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 11:26, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:41, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

• Keep A world-famous guru who has approximately 200,000 disciples, who founded dozens of temples and centers, who wrote more than 100 books, who recorded thousands of lectures, and who circled the world over 30 times is by definition notable and noteworthy and exactly the sort of individual who should have an article about his life on Wikipedia. His books are in libraries all over the world and he continues to inspire hundreds of thousands of people all over the world. I have edited the article to include more details about Srila Narayana Maharaja's position in Gaudiya Vaisnava history, including his relationship with the eminent Gaudiya Vaisnava guru and founder-acarya of ISKCON, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. This and other details of his legacy added several more independent sources to the article. Because the large part of Srila Narayana Maharaja's career took place in India, the majority of his activities were covered in the Hindi press, television, and literature. However, English sources exist and additional ones have been noted here to demonstrate the notability of this individual. Further, I will work to add more relevant content to this article and associated references. KundalataDasi (talk) 11:20, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

• Keep The original closing decision to delete appears like an attack without reason that ignores provided evidence. Request for deletion ignores multiple valid resources. Source-of-inspiration (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2020 (UTC)— Source-of-inspiration (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep Request for deletion disregards valid evidence of existence and does not provide clear evidence of lack of spirituality of guru. Source-of-inspiration (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2020 (UTC)— Source-of-inspiration (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep Request for deletion does not include valid reason for deletion as seen here Source-of-inspiration (talk) 22:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)— Source-of-inspiration (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 13:45, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Keep The page was previously deleted on the criterion of lack of notability.
  

Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja was a world-famous guru & scholar who has 294 publications available in 7 languages

(English, Hindi, Bengali, German, Spanish, Russian & Dutch). The list of his publications, all downloadable, is here:

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-magazines/bhakti-books

His author page on Amazon.com is here:

https://www.amazon.com/Sri-Srimad-Bhaktivedanta-Narayana-Gosvami-Maharaja/e/B00RIWCH3Q

and a search of his name yields 208 results:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Bhaktivedanta+Narayana+Maharaja

I think there are much less notable & prolific authors than this who have Wikipedia pages. ShyamDasUK (talk • contribs) 20:35, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Keep Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja has 5 official websites:
  

http://www.purebhakti.com/

http://www.bhaktibooks.info/

http://www.bhaktiprojects.org/

https://bhaktistore.com/

https://gvpbookdistribution.com/

The following pages are dedicated to him:

http://srilanarayanmaharaja.com/

http://musicofyoga.com/

http://purebhakti.tv/

http://www.kirtaniyas.com/

http://bvmlu.org/SBNM/index.htm

http://sbnmcd.org/

Those are just some of the ones in English.

Here is a list of websites dedicated to His Holiness Narayana Maharaja in 9 other languages:

German:

https://harekrischna.de/

Portuguese:

http://presentesinigualaveis.blogspot.com/p/acervo-devocional.html

http://gvebrasil.blogspot.com/

http://jornalharekrsnabrasil.blogspot.co.uk/

http://vidasimplesepensamentoelevado.blogspot.com/

http://iskconaverdade.blogspot.com/

Russian:

http://www.purebhakti.ru/

http://www.radiokrishna.ru/

http://www.a108.net/

Polish:

https://www.purebhakti.pl/

https://www.bhaktijoga.pl/

French:

http://www.purebhakti-francais.com/

Spanish:

https://www.radharanikijay.com/

Books in Spanish:

https://www.radharanikijay.com/search/label/Libros

Italian:

http://www.gaudiya.it/

Dutch:

http://hollandsanga.blogspot.com/

Swedish:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160306041634/http://bhakti.se/ [Archive 2016: now dead page]

There were formerly pages in Hindi, Chinese and other languages but I have not had time to find the Wayback Archive of them.

He has at least 6 Facebook pages dedicated to him:

https://www.facebook.com/narayanagosvami

https://www.facebook.com/2021Centennial

https://www.facebook.com/Swami.BV.Narayana

https://www.facebook.com/rememberingsrilagurudeva

https://www.facebook.com/SrilaBhaktiVedantaNarayanaGoswamiMaharaja

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009908766411

This YouTube channel shows videos of him leading pilgrimage of hundreds & thousands of people:

https://www.youtube.com/user/krsnakarunya

There are 4000 mp3s of his lectures and 2000 videos of him here:
http://www.purebhakti.tv

There are hundreds of photographs of him touring the world from 2004-2010 here:

http://bvmlu.org/SBNM/index.html#photos and for example, this one shows him speaking before a crowd of 5000 people at a 5 day festival he held in Noida, New Delhi in 2004: :http://bvmlu.org/SBNM/photos_noida.html

(There is also an archive of several thousand photos on Facebook which I will try to find).

All the above is incontrovertible proof of Srila Narayana Maharaja's 'notability'.

He was a Gaudiya Vaisnava holy man, guru, author and lectured all over the world in front of many thousands of different people.

His nearly 300 books are still available in print and digitally, in at least 7 languages.

Any attempt to deny this as 'notable' is frankly ludicrous, if not downright dishonest. ShyamDasUK (talk • contribs) 23:08, 1 October 2020 (BST)

• Comment All of the above links to websites, youtube channels, facebook pages, photos should be on the page itself since it validates the fact that we are discussing a celebrity. Source-of-inspiration (talk) 19:27, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Kommentar: Notability is measured by coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject; the number of websites about something does not impact this measure, neither does the number of books or videos published, nor the number of lectures held. — Blablubbs ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:06, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I'm sorry Blablubbs, but I disagree. If someone is the author of 294 books available in 7 languages, in print and available online, they are by definition notable. If someone has thousands of followers and has lectured all over the world in front of hundreds of thousands of different people, they are also, indisputably, notable. He was an inspiration to many and continues to be so.

He was honoured by various western leaders, including the Mayors of 2 western cities (Houston TX & Birmingham UK) and a religious committee in New Delhi, among others. There are many who have Wikipedia pages who are far less famous than Srila Narayana Maharaja. Thank you.

• Kommentar At the very least, we need to ditch the WP:HONORIFICS, which are not appropriate for an encylopaedia article. HDG Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada, the founder of the Gaudiya Math and the Saraswata line, of which ISKCON, IPBYS, etc., are part, is at Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati – as it should be, because that is his name minus the Vaisnava honorifics. Srila Narayana Maharaja's page should be at Bhaktivedanta Narayana (where Narayana is his sannyasi name), as it was before, if it stays. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:22, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment I would compromise on the honorifics - I would be willing to drop the "Srila", as "Sri" is the Hindi/Sanskrit equivalent of "Mr."; "Srila" would be more like "Sir". But Bhaktivedanta is his title, Narayana his first name, and he was commonly known as "Narayana Maharaja" in the world. There is another individual by the name of "Narayan Maharaj", so for clarity, the "Bhaktivedanta" designation must be retained. I would prefer "Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja" but would settle for "Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja" (the name most readily recognisable) as the absolute minimum.
    

3 names is not an unreasonable number - cp. Sarah Michelle Gellar or Martin Luther King. And religious leaders, Acharyas, should be treated with respect, even in academic circles. ShyamDasUK (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• • Comment Above stated: "Not appropriate for encylopaedia article" Where is this stated? What third-party published documentation states this? Stated above: "because that is his name minus the Vaisnava honorifics." This sentence needs clarity. Again, there is not a single academic reference citing third-party sources to support the suggestion for deletion. The statements above are ungrounded, false, and contradictory as stated in comment below by KundalataDasi below. Source-of-inspiration (talk) 19:39, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Kommentar I wholly disagree with the individual named Dasanudasa. By his logic, the word "Prabhupada" should be removed from the title of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's article. Without this, hardly anybody would recognize the subject of the article. Instead, the appropriate course of action is to use the full name under which each of these individuals have published their books and are recognized by their readers. For Srila Narayana Maharaja, this is "Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja." Anything short of this would confuse him with another person with a similar name: Narayan Maharaj. I urge Wikipedia administrators to consider this point and avoid any changes to the article name. This would be completely inappropriate and diminish the educational value of the article, as it would then become less discoverable to those seeking to learn more about this eminent guru. KundalataDasi (talk) 11:43, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Prabhupada is an exception in the majority of reliable independent sources call him by that name, rather than simply AC Bhaktivedanta Swami. That isn't the case for Narayana Maharaja (albeit mainly because there are hardly any sources on his life that aren't published by his own organisation or disciples). The article title now is inappropriate due to the extensive use of honorifics. "Srila" is not part of his name; neither are "Goswami" or "Maharaja" (the first of which simply means he is a sannyasi, and the later of which is an honorific meaning "great king"). Just as we don't use titles like "Sir" or "Dame" or "His Majesty", neither are these appropriate for an article title. There are no other Bhaktivedanta Narayanas on Wikipedia, so this shouldn't present a problem. Poor old Bhaktivedanta Tripurari doesn't even get his "Bhaktivedanta" in there, just his sannyasa name: he's at Tripurari. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 13:05, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Comment This statement, "Poor old Bhaktivedanta Tripurari doesn't even get his "Bhaktivedanta" in there, just his sannyasa name" is subjective, non-academic and has no bearing in this discussion. Source-of-inspiration (talk) 19:39, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Kommentar I take no delight in "Poor old Bhaktivedanta Tripurari" [sic] not having his name properly represented - he should be "Tripurari Swami" or "Bhaktivedanta Tripurari" at the very least. He is also a Vaisnava leader. ShyamDasUK (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
        • Comment I think we could drop the "Srila", as a compromise. It is an honorific, similar to "Sir" or "His Holiness". It can still be used in the article itself. Most searches would be for Bhaktivedanta Narayana, Narayana Maharaja or Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja. Personally, I would settle for "Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja" as the absolute minimum. ShyamDasUK (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• Keep Original request for deletion states: "from a quick scan...." A quick scan indicates whimsical actions; whimsical actions to arbitrarily suggest an article for deletion constitutes trolling . A quick scan does not meet any guidelines for the deletion process. You have not made a single specific point with academic evidence or research.

• Comment: You are suggesting that the page for Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami be deleted yet it appears you have not executed any of the considerations before nominating an article for deletion as cited here under **Deletion Process**.

For your convenience I am citing a few of the points here. Note that ALL of the steps should be considered:

• Investigate the possibility of rewriting the article yourself (or at least creating a stub on the topic and requesting expansion) instead of deleting it.
• First do the necessary homework and look for sources yourself, and invite discussion on the talk page by using the notability template, if you are disputing the notability of an article's subject. The fact that you haven't heard of something, or don't personally consider it worthy, are not criteria for deletion. You must look for, and demonstrate that you couldn't find, any independent sources of sufficient depth.

To repeat, it clearly states in the process for deletion:

The fact that you haven't heard of something, or don't personally consider it worthy, are not criteria for deletion. You must look for, and demonstrate that you couldn't find, any independent sources of sufficient depth.

Unless you have scholarly evidence to support your suggestion for deletion, you are violating Wikipedia's deletion process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Source-of-inspiration (talk • contribs) 19:24, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Agreed. There are no grounds for deletion, certainly not on the basis of notability, nor lack of sources. ShyamDasUK (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• Delete: Fails WP:BLP, almost all sources are primary except for a now defunct news network, and this page seems to be full of sockpuppets canvassing votes, presenting no actual keep arguments. — Yours, Berrely • ^Talk∕_Contribs 13:10, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Dear Berrely - Please check the sources again, there is a variety of them including scholarly analysis by those unconnected with the Hare Krishna movement. I don't know what a sock puppet is, but I also don't see how hard evidence of hundreds of publications and dozens of webpages in a variety of languages, plus proof of festivals and lecture tours held globally during Maharaja's lifetime, before many thousands of people, do not prove that a person was a celebrity and thus 'notable'. Is there some kind of prejudice or campaign in the academic world against religious persons and communities? ShyamDasUK (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment The news network is not defunct, it has merely changed URL from www.vnn.org to http://vaishnava-news-network.org/
  

The VNN.org archive is found here: http://www.vaishnava-news-network.org/europe/index.html ShyamDasUK (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• Keep Berrely is making false accusations of socket puppetry; meanwhile he is not presenting himself as following the guidelines for deletion as stated here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:D%C4%81s%C4%81nud%C4%81sa#Violating_Wikipedia_deletion_process_requirements. A deep investigation of his editing history does not indicate Berrely is an expert in any subject matter particularly this subject matter; Berrely displays no authority to even comment in this thread as he simply copied and pasted the original suggestion for deletion from Dasanudasa. You are WRONG to state that we are socket puppets. That is a false accusation and in itself displays a hostile and desperate attempt to hack, troll, and vandalize the page of an innocent celebrity who has served humanity for a greater good. Source-of-inspiration (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Struck and un-bolded four duplicate !votes. Users would benefit from remembering that Brevity is the soul of wit, dropping the bludgeon, and avoiding ad hominem attacks. Focus on content, not contributors. If you cannot make a convincing argument in a reasonable-length paragraph, the point becomes far less convincing with every wall of text that gets posted. Best, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 17:47, 3 October 2020 (UTC) (came here from the discord)

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