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Talk:El castillo de los monstruos (1964 film)

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Requested move 22 July 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to El castillo de los monstruos (1964 film) at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 10:09, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

El Castillo de los monstruos → El Castillo de los Monstruos – this page title has inconsistencies in capitalization (upper case C; lower case m) which should be fixed by moving to a capitalized title, over the current disambiguation page. That dab page is not required because both entries have hatnotes to each other. (Note that The Castle of the Monsters uses the common name in English and attracts substantially more page views. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:46, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Page views: [1]

@In ictu oculi: Thanks. I hadn't realised Spanish titles had different capitalisation (I don't know Spanish well): perhaps there should be something at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign-language films ? I think it's pretty clear that the 1958 film is the primary topic so why the disambiguator at the new title El castillo de los monstruos (1958 film) ? Let's have the 1958 film at El castillo de los monstruos; the 1964 film at El castillo de los monstruos (1964 film); the disambiguation page El Castillo de los Monstruos overwritten by a redirect to the 1958 film; and delete the INTDAB page El Castillo de los Monstruos (disambiguation). Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:22, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NCFILM tends towards having year for both films, unless it is very very clear. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:20, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi: The page views (link above) indicate the 1958 film has in the order of ten times the page views (with the English language title). Is this not enough to say the 1958 film is the primary topic per WP:PRIMARYFILM ? Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 05:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly. But as regards this RM on this Sandrini film article it requires (1964 film). I'm neutral on the Clavillazo film. You could use a G6 to move it to El castillo de los monstruos. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK, let's get this one done first. Thanks. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 11:50, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Doubts

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@Dr. Blofeld: Hello, how are you? Does this film exist? Look at the IMDb page poster and at the Spanish page plot and cast...and compare with the Mexican 1958 film ....it's a mix of the 1958 film and of some sources mentioning a tiny plot with the characters listed here, but I found no books in Spanish about it. I did not search that hard, but can you help me here? Thanks. Yours,-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 12:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 1990 book South American Cinema: Dictionary of Film Makers has his filmography here though I can't see the next page. Unfortunately, I can't tell if the author would have ordered the title alphabetically for the same year of 1964, to know if it's false or just on the next page. If we can get that book or something similar, that can verify his whole filmography. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:00, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot, but I can"t see page 168 either. Best, -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Actually, it looks like you may be right. The screenshot groups multiple titles for each year, so if we don't see El castillo de los monstruos before "(64)", it probably does not exist. (Unless it is under a later year for some reason.) We really should get this book. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect a very well-made hoax, not from Dr. Blofeld, sure, but maybe IMDb?....Raúl Manrupe & María Alejandra Portela - Un Diccionario de Films Argentinos (1995) passes from Castigo to Castita, without any Castillo title.....Maybe the title is wrong but if the title and the year and the director are wrong, where is the real film? -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, are you talking about the 1958 film of the same name? It's Mexican, so it won't be in that Argentinian dictionary. I do see Google Books results for that film and the director and the year (sometimes 1957, sometimes 1958). I don't really think it's a hoax, I think it's just bad database criss-crossing that created a dud topic. I'll try to get the book next week. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, no, the 1958 Mexican film exists, only this one seems dubious (to me)....The Sp Wp page was created in 2015 about the supposed 1964 film and shifted to the existing 1958 film (that has no page in Sp, as far as I could see) I don't know when. The original Spanish WP creator used IMDb and this https://www.abandomoviez.net/db/pelicula.php?film=23232 -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But even with the supposed cast (without Rinaldi's name) nothing comes out...Mysterious Castle of the Monsters! -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha! Yeah, I find it dubious too, just based on the fact it's not with El desastrólogo before the "(64)" year marker. We will probably need to delete this and re-verify the director's filmography. Hopefully I can get screenshots of the book and send to IMDb to get that page deleted. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is more possible evidence. The 1964 film El desastrólogo has had an IMDb page since September 2004 as seen here. The 1965 film Bicho raro has had a page since February 2005 here. Yet the 1964 film El castillo de los monstruos has only had a page since October 2009 here, after the director Wikipedia article and this film Wikipedia article were created in 2007. Might have been bad data-processing, depends on what Dr. Blofeld's original reference was. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So not an IMBd hoax. I will have a look at the history of the totally misleading Spanish page (full content is the 1958 Mexican film!). Thanks. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a timeline of events:

  • This may mean the IMDb page for El castillo de los monstruos existed at this time! So the October 2009 version is not the oldest
  • Director and cast potentially came from IMDb page, since it probably existed at this time
  • Note: While this is the earliest version in Internet Archive, it likely existed as long ago as December 2005

Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 23:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am suspecting that Male and Female Since Adam and Eve (no standalone Wikipedia article, but has IMDb page here and is listed at Carlos Rinaldi) is also a problem. Checking the filmography screenshot from 1949 to 1964, it is El castillo de los monstruos and Male and Female Since Adam and Eve that do not show up. (Not to mention that the latter film seems out of place with Rinaldi's filmography.) We will have to check the rest of the filmography too. This matches the poster at the IMDb page, with the producer being William Mishkin, apparently. It seems like there is a scattering of results connecting Male and Female Since Adam and Eve with Carlos Rinaldi, but I am thinking that perhaps this Rinaldi just happens to have the same name as the Argentine director. Although this from 1961 seems to say "made in Argentina"? Maybe Rinaldi made this for Mishkin who wanted it set in Argentina? So strange...! Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 03:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No hoax intended of course, it was just on a list I had. The Spanish article is about the 1958 Mexican film we have at El castillo de los monstruos (1958 film), so somebody needs to fix the Wikidata link. If there is no 1964 film on Cinenacional.com it should probably be deleted. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:04, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The creator of the SP WP page about the 1964 film just replied to a note I had left on his TP there and he's going to check the sources he has used, when he has time. I'll let you know. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 12:18, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Male and Female ...seems to be a real Rinaldi film. For example, see https://mubi.com/en/pt/films/male-and-female-since-adam-and-eve Oddly enough, it’s even the only film directed by him listed there (with the films he edited). The fact that there is only an English title for this film is also strange, even on the Sp,WP it’s in English...https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_and_Female_Since_Adam_and_Eve.... Same creator as the 1964 Castle of Monsters page. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 08:10, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that MUBI link too but wasn't sure how reliable it was. The film obviously exists, but I can't help but wonder if MUBI populated its web page for that film from other databases, which may or may not have been corrupted with insertion of his name early on. I think its absence from the book and from Cinenacional.com seems suspect. As for the Spanish-Wikipedia page, I don't think there's value in assessing it since it could have been created based on bad data. However, there is a useful link there, TCM with the "film details" page here having details not found elsewhere. So I guess on that basis, we can restore it? Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish Wikipedia: The pages are now correctly linked (1958 film with the newly-created (by me, with content from the 1964 article) 1958 film and 1964 film with the restored (by me) original version about the 1964 film). That does not solve the problem (at all), but things are a bit less confused on that side now. Will let you know if new elements emerge there.-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And no, cinemanacional.com has nothing about this film (and/but nothing about Male and Female...either) Also, a search director+members of the cast (without even the alleged title) gives nothing (except IMDb and mirrors, that is). Not an image, not a video. Even an unreleased/censored film like No apto para menores, also by Rinaldi, has received some coverage. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 10:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How do you want to get rid of it then Mushy and Erik? I would db-author it but have a feeling it would be rejected. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:16, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I would like to wait for the Spanish creator to show me his sources. He said he would when he has time and he's a very experienced user, but on holidays. But if you think this should go now now, feel free. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 08:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had not had any time to get the book to verify the full filmography, but as mentioned above, it would have been named along with the other 1964 film on the page that is visible to us. I think the article has had too many other editors for {{db-author}} to be used. I suggest going ahead with WP:AFD, which will allow us to lay out the evidence that this film is an incorrect data entry that took a life of its own. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 17:51, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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