Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity

Nikola Tesla isn’t American

I swear to God these americans are thinking famous people are their nationality when they’re not! Nikola Tesla only lived in the USA. He is Serbo-Croatian. Born in Croatia, Serbian family. 💀 Hellopreppy (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Tesla was an American citizen for 52 years and lived in the United States for most of his life. Cullen328 (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

He was a naturalized. Sources do say that he was quite proud to become American. Yes, maybe the lead isn't quite accurate because it emphasizes his American citizenship and Serbian ethnicity, neglecting that he was born in Croatia which was a part of Austrian Empire. It is a big part of his notability after all, as he wasn't an American citizen until age 35. However, the article does explicitly mention that Tesla was born in Croatia later in the text. If he wasn't naturalized the lead could say Serbo-Croatian. 78.1.202.178 (talk) 00:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Separate talk page

Can someone explain to me why is there a separate talk page just for nationality and ethnicity? What exactly is the problem here? I think that sources do cover this quite well. 1. Ethnicity - almoust all sources state Serbian as ethnicity 2. Nationality - Austrian then American

Also, Austria was a multicultural empire composed of several distinct parts. Usually, for people from Austria, usually their cultural land is mentioned, as not all people were austrains. For Tesla, it's mentioned that he was a native of Croatian part of the empire, as opposed to being Austrain or Hungarian.

All checks out. Maybe someone more familiar can explain what exactly is debated here?

78.1.202.178 (talk) 00:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

You can read some good topics in the last 2 archives about nationality. It wasn't Austiran before American.

Also some editors are disputing Tesla was born in Croatian part of the Empire, although the article says Military Frontier and Military Frontier article lists MF as part of Croatia. 95.168.105.16 (talk) 14:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

You know, you can't use Wikipedia as a source? 78.1.202.106 (talk) 14:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

If you don't intend to read previous discussions, and those are too long for you to read, I can't help you much.

Here are the sources: "Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina ..." Bernard Carlson, Tesla: Inventor of the Electric Age, p.13

"the village where Tesla was born, is in the province of Lika, and at the time of his birth was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slovenia.". O'Neill (1944), page 12. 95.168.105.16 (talk) 15:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not reading walls of trash discussions , like the one above. That's why I asked someone more familiar to direct me. Ok, thanks for the sources, but I still fail to see the point. The article already says that Tesla was born in Croatian part of Austria: Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia

Could you direct me to sources about nationality? 78.1.202.106 (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know exactly where the problem lies. Chetvorno and Joy are disagreeing with the "At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina ..." , "and at the time of his birth was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slovenia". Just a warning, they are quite hostile to other editos who open such debates.

You have some discussion about nationality in Archive 15. But, there are no good sources as Tesla's biographies don't deal with that question. 95.168.105.16 (talk) 20:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I was reading some old discussions. Yes, I can agree that nationality is a bit difficult issue, and the lack of sources don't help. For birthplace editors often point to consensus from 10 years ago [1]. First , I see that the RfC question is misdirected. MrX suggested the change to Smiljan, Croatia, Austrian Empire. This led to a lot of discussion about the term Croatia being ambiguous. Second, I'm not seeing this 2 sources debated. This sources are newer. This merits a new discussion. Chetvorno and Joy, could you please provide the other opinion before I start a new RfC? What I'm seeing are 2 sources which provide additional info which would pretty much settle this continuous debates. I'm not sure why those weren't already introducted in the article. I would do it , but I suppose someone would revert to the present consesus, so I'll rather do it through this discussion. Thanks. 78.0.210.168 (talk) 11:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla birthplace , review after 10 years

Ten years have passed since the last discussion [2]. The appearance of new sources merits a new discussion.

The present text in the article stands: "Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in the village of Smiljan, within the Military Frontier, in the Austrian Empire (present-day Croatia)"

The sources provide additional context which describe the birthplace "at that time"

1. "Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina ..." Bernard Carlson, Tesla: Inventor of the Electric Age, p.13
2. "the village where Tesla was born, is in the province of Lika, and at the time of his birth was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slovenia.". O'Neill (1944), page 12

The RfC questions are:

1. Was Tesla's birthplace a part of Croatia (at the time of Tesla's birth), which was at that time a part of Austrian Empire
   • As opposed to the interpretation given by some editors which opinion was that, although nowadays (in 21st century) a part of Croatia, Tesla's birthplace wasn't a part of Croatia at the time of Tesla's birth (in the 19th century)
2. Should we include that additional context in the article by adding the following sentece from source 1: " At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina"

Trimpops2 (talk) 11:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Yes on both questions as opener. I think the addition of this one sentence would resolve this question and put a stop to purpetual discussions. Trimpops2 (talk) 11:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. I formulated the RfC with 2 questions because I noticed that some editors were advocating for option 1.1, while their reasoning was that this info is not necessary, etc. If the sources are correct, that would be misleading. So, please answer to both questions. Trimpops2 (talk) 12:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• Yes to 1. And yes to 2. Tesla himself said "I was born in Croatia" [3]. It's a primary source, opposed to 2 sources above, but coming from Tesla himself, relevant to note. 95.168.116.19 (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment: The RfC opening is not neutral. Stating that the source provides "additional context" from the previous RfC is 1. not true and 2. not a neutral opening. The previous RfC elaborates on this exact topic very thoughtfully. --Azor (talk). 21:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional context for the sentence that is already in the article. Bernard Carlson states Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia (this sentece is already in the articel) and then Carlson provides "additional context" with the following sentece At that time, a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was referred to as Vojna Krajina. I think I have elaborated the exact context. The purpose is not to contest the previous RfC, but to provide the context "at that time" which this 2 sources provide. Trimpops2 (talk) 21:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Help me out here, because I'm an uninvolved editor. Where is the WP:RFCBEFORE about this question? I found a discussion from May about this topic, but a cursory reading doesn't seem to show any editor who disagrees with adding the proposed sentence to the article based on the sources provided. Please let me know if I missed something (who disagrees, and what are their arguments). spintheer (talk) 15:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

There were a lot if discussions, you can find them in archives. 93.141.183.145 (talk) 20:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• No he wasn't born in any variant of a political Croatia and No the additional text isn't needed. The present text is perfectly clear about what his place of birth was at the time, and where that is located politically now. Anyone wanting further details about the Empire, the MZ or modern Croatia simply has to follow links. The proposal doesn't clarify anything directly relevant to Tesla.Pincrete (talk) 06:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, one can follow the link to Military Frontier article and find that there was a huge discussion whether MZ was a part of Croatia. It was determined that MZ was a part of Croatia, and the article was updated with the sources. It seems that you didn't follow your own advice. Althouth Wikipedia isn't a source, I'll include the quote from that article since it's sourced there and has a whole discussion: "From 1850 the Frontier, Croatia and Slavonia formally constituted a single land, but with separate administration and representation."95.168.105.14 (talk) 09:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

What makes you claim he wasn't born in any variant of a political Croatia, when even you refer to Military Frontier which says otherwise? Maybe you missed what Military Frontier states, but surely you have read the 2 Tesla biographies I posted above. Do you have any sources for your claim? Trimpops2 (talk) 11:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• Hmm, this sounds like a continuation of other anonymous soapboxing from earlier this year. I suppose I'm happy that we were able to corral this at least, into a discussion of how to best present information from reliable sources, but it's still somewhat suspect because of the topic area. Perhaps we need to not limit ourselves to answering possibly tendentious anonymous trolling, and rather think of what's relevant to explaining Tesla's early years to the average English reader, not the average politically-motivated reader. These places where Tesla grew up - Lika, Karlovac - are actually conventionally known as Croatia proper, and any politics are rather orthogonal to that. Missing that bit of context, while e.g. still listing the details of his siblings - never to be mentioned in the biography again - does seem a bit out of whack. We used to have a lot more random stuff in the early years section, it's improved since. I'm ambivalent about the phrasing proposed here because it's using the native term Vojna Krajina while we use English and say Military Frontier instead. --Joy (talk) 08:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  In fact, the change could be much more subtle than adding another whole sentence, because our text currently says:

  ...village of Smiljan, within the Military Frontier, in the Austrian Empire (present-day Croatia).

  So we could just as well say:

  ...village of Smiljan, in Lika, Croatia, at the time within the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire.

  or:

  ...village of Smiljan, in Lika, at the time within the Croatian Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire.

  or even:

  ...village of Smiljan, at the time within the Croatian Military Frontier, in the Austrian Empire.

  (The latter was previously proposed in a May '24 thread but without dropping the redundant part.) --Joy (talk) 09:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Those are all good suggestions. However, reading older discussions, I think that the sentence which uses the formulation "at that time" is much better, because many of users were using that terminology in the past discussions. The main points of discussions were about the territory "at that time", as simply saying Croatia nowadays was often interpreted, "but not Croatia at that time". In my opinion it's better to do it the way this 2 sources are presenting the info. It's consise and describes everything accurately.

I have also formulated this RfC in this special way with 2 questions. We must have a clear answer to first question before we can discuss the article content. This is a fallacy I often see on Wikipeida, most recently on Srebrenica Massacre article where people who deny the genocide had happened in Srebrenica were advocating the article shouldn't be renamed to Srebrenica Genocide, which is not objective. Some people who weren't denying the genocide had happened were supporting Srebrenica Massacre name based on common name argument, and I have nothing to complain there regarding objectivity. This is why I formulated this RfC with 2 questions. It's hard to discuss about article content if we don't agree on the 1st question of this RfC. This was the problem with past discussions which I'm trying to avoid. I would appreciate if everyone would follow the concept I have set up for this RfC. And I'd like to thank editors who voted so far for following the 2 question concept. Trimpops2 (talk) 12:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

No, please don't bring in random discussions about whatever happens in other unrelated articles. Likewise, don't try to own the discussion format just because you started it - please read the policy on consensus. --Joy (talk) 08:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I can bring up examples from Wiki or outside Wiki to explain my position. No problems there really. Me starting RfC with 2 specific questions, explaining why I have choosen those questions, and asking others to answer has nothing to do with WP:OWN. I'm not acting like I'm OWNing, but rather I wanted to explain my position and motives. As I said, all your suggestions are good and I don't have anything against them. Trimpops2 (talk) 09:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Cyrillic script in the lead

May I ask why there's Cyrillic version of the name in the lead? As far as I know, Nikola Tesla wasn't a native speaker of Serbian , but Croatian language. Do we have any sources of him writing in Serbian language?

Trimpops2 (talk) 00:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I've edited the article. Maybe this way the discussion gains traction. I just fail to see what someone's ethncity has with the language of that ethnicity.

For instance , there are many americans of many ethnicities who have been born in america and aren't speaking the language of their ethnicity.

An example: John Malkovich. There isn't Croatian version of the name in the lead "Ivan Malković". He isn't a native speaker of Croatian language. Trimpops2 (talk) 23:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Playing Devil's advocate, Malkovich was born in the US and therefore his identification papers (birth certificate, passport, drivers license) will all be purely in English. His maternal grandparents were Croatian immigrants, but he is also from English, Scottish, French, and German descent. Quite unlike Tesla.  Stepho  talk  23:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Tesla was born in Austrian Empire. His all documents are on Croatian and German.

Yes, maybe I should have taken someone whose both parents come from certain ethnicity. But, the point stands even more expressed this way, are we then to write John Makovich's name in all ethnicity languages? This wasn't ever been the way on Wikipedia. Trimpops2 (talk) 23:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I assume that Tesla could speak Serbian, as Serbian is similar to Croatian (maybe less so in the 19th century then today), but then the question is, if someone can speak the language of possible many ethnicities he comes from, does this mean we should list all those languages in as native?

Even the term "native language" isn't correct as Tesla's native language is Croatian, not Serbian. We can't list Serbian as native. This is just factually incorrect. Trimpops2 (talk) 23:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

What I would like to see, are sources that he had extensively used Serbian language in his work. But even then, we can't list Serbian as native. His documents clearly list Croatian as native language. And before someone mentions Serbo-Croatian. This is purely a linguistics term that is newer then 19th century (if I'm not mistaken). Trimpops2 (talk) 23:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Tesla was born into a Serbian Orthodox family in Smiljan, where he would have been exposed to Serbian culture and language, including the Cyrillic script traditionally used by Serbian communities. His letters and personal writings, some of which have been preserved, demonstrate his ability to communicate in Serbian, despite many of his scientific papers being in English or German. --Azor (talk). 20:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not negating that. But that can be said for pretty much everyone. He also spoke Croatian as his native language, Hungarian and German. But only Serbian is listed in this way. Why? Could you agree that it's misleading to have it written this way when Croatian , not Serbian, is his native langauge? Trimpops2 (talk) 20:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Even listing ethnicty in the lead isn't usual on Wikipedia. Especially when ethnicity differs from nationality. But then to list the language based on his ethnicity is even more unusual. It's usually listed when the person's native langauge differs from English, or when the person is notable in other country. Tesla wasn't notable to Serbia, but Croatia. Just look at this example Slavoljub Eduard Penkala. Trimpops2 (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The concept of a native language can be understood in different ways depending on context. Tesla not only knew how to write in Cyrillic but also occasionally used it during his lifetime, which contrasts strongly with individuals whose native language is Croatian. His choice of Serbian for personal correspondence shows his proficiency and serves as one of many proofs of his connection to the Serbian language and cultural roots. --Azor (talk). 21:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

His documents list Croatian as his native language. I don't think there's much to discuss there. Trimpops2 (talk) 21:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you answer the question. If we take that Croatian is his native langauge as a fact, do you agree that listing Serbian in the lead is misleading as someone might thing that Serbian is his native langauge? This should be the bare minimum where we can agree. Trimpops2 (talk) 21:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• This discussion is pointless. Croatian spelling of Tesla's name is in the very beginning of the first sentence (Nikola Tesla). It is even in bold letters. It is also in the title of the article. Nikola Tesla is his name in Croatian. It is stated in the beginning, before Serbian Cyrillic spelling, which is in the parenthesis. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

You haven't touched on any points I made. Why is Serbian singled out, and for instance Hungarian versions isn't here? He also spoke Hungarian. Also, ethnicities might use multiple languages. Are we to write someone's name in every single language someone spoke? Also, I have asked, wouldn't it writing this was be confusing for some editors who might think that Serbian is his native language when his documents lists Croatian? Trimpops2 (talk) 13:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

This is not the way to build a consensus. I think that we first need to see what Wiki guidelines say here and then apply them to this specific case. Can we agree on that?

Can we agree about this specific case: Tesla was born in Austrian Croatia. His parents are as well born in Austria. His ethnicity is Serbian. His native language is Croatian , but he can also speak Serbian. He later learned German, Hungarian and English. If we can agree on this, what do Wiki guidelines say about the languages listed in the lead sentence? Trimpops2 (talk) 13:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

So I'll ask you too the question. If Tesla's native language is Croatian, do you think that writing Serbian in this way in the lead is misleading for some readers who might this that his native langauge is Serbian? And on which grounds in Serbian singled out. Purely because of his ethnicity? I'm not sure other Wiki articles are singling out languages this way.

Furthermore, he spoke this languages per article: Serbo-Croatian, Czech, English, French, German, Hungarian, Italian, and Latin. Where is his name in latin? Also, Serbo-Croatian, this isn't a linquistic term known in the 19th century. This way developed much later. Trimpops2 (talk) 13:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

His name in Latin is there, in the very beginning of the article. His name in Latin is Nikola Tesla, isn't it? Serbian Cyrillic is single out only because it is different from English spelling. Croatian, Hungarian, Latin, etc. are not singled out because they all spell his name the same way as English. Thus, it would be duplication. For example, we do not write "Albert Einstein (German: Albert Einstein)" because in this case, German and English spelling are the same. That does not mean we negate German language, that only means we do not want to duplicate. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No, Nicolaus would be the latin name. This is the name on his passport. Hungarian it would be Miklós. Again , possibly some of his documents are on Hungarian. The question here is about Wiki guidelines. Which languages go to the lead. Why is Serbian singled out and in a way where someone might think that Serbian is his native language. Apart from that, the article is missing his native language and it's using the Sebo-Croatian term which has not existed in the 19th century. I'll make the edit in the article about that. Trimpops2 (talk) 20:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

There is a difference between aphabets and exonyms. Please retain from any more disruptive edits. --Azor (talk). 20:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

What does that have to do with the points I made? Trimpops2 (talk) 09:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Because of his Serbian ethnicity and the great interest in Tesla in Serbia, I don't see anything wrong with giving his name in Cyrillic. --Chetvorno^TALK 00:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I made several points, but no one answered them. Trimpops2 (talk) 09:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I thought I had a deja vu when I saw this discussion... we had a very similar proposal recently in Talk:Josip Broz Tito#Native name in SC Cyrillic, and I can largely copy my answers from there:

The relevant criterion for inclusion is the answer to the question - is an average English reader going to commonly encounter the topic's name in this format / script, would it help them to have it noted here? As there is a body of work written in Serbian Cyrillic about him, it's fair to say it's possible that they'll encounter it, so we should keep it.

There is a much larger volume in Latin scripts (both English and Croatian), so the real nuance here is whether this is worthy of inline WP:LEAD placement or should it perhaps be in an annotation so it doesn't clutter the initial sentence. MOS:LEADLANG is applicable here, but it's a matter of editorial discretion whether this label and text is clutter or not.

--Joy (talk) 09:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

For the pondering of what might be clutter or not, let's compare the readership of these two articles: all-time monthly page views of Tito and Tesla. The Tesla article has consistently gotten around 3x more reader traffic, so I suppose there's some more merit to thinking the audience is very broad, and how they're that much less likely to actually encounter non-English sources about him.

I'm not aware of any proper research into this matter in other similar articles. The article is already 150 KB long, so using {{efn}} here might make sense if we also think of trimming other less focused content from the text. --Joy (talk) 09:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll read that discussions, but just to repeat my points and the difference between Tito and Tesla. Tito was , like Tesla, born in Austrain Croatia. Both have native language as Croatian. However, Tito was later a citizen and a leader of Yugoslavia where the official language was Serbo-Croatian. Tesla wasn't a citizen of Serbia. Serbian langauge was only one of several that Tesla spoke, notable by being a native language of his ethnic people. I asked whether that makes the language notable to be stated in the lead, because many people have more ethnic backgrounds. Is everyone who speaks the language of some of his ethnic backgound listed with those langauges in the lead. I also asked whether stating Serbian language by his ethnicity in the lead is misleading for readers who might think that Tesla's native langauge is Serbian, while his documents list Croatian. I have also posted one source where his name is stated in the latin language as Nickolaus. Trimpops2 (talk) 12:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Please don't repeat things if you want anyone to actually be want to read this. --Joy (talk) Joy (talk) 08:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)