Talk:Victoria Starmer

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This article was nominated for deletion on 29 May 2024. The result of the discussion was Draftify.

Submitted Draft

Sorry, didn't see that it had been moved to draftspace from namespace. Please ignore my submission.TimeEngineer (talk) 07:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish status

Her father was Jewish by birth, but her mother was a convert. Do we know who converted her? Depending on who did, the Jewish status of Victoria and her 2 kids might not be recognised by all synagogues. PatGallacher (talk) 18:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find anything on but I don't think it matters. If Starmer was brought up in a Jewish household and sees herself as Jewish and coverage of her overwhelming describe her as Jewish then its safe to say she is. Judaism is fairly open about who is Jewish as well, from what I've learned. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Judaism is 100% not open about who is Jewish. Only very liberal movements will recognize patrilineal descent, intermarriage is generally discouraged, and no movement will accept conversions of a movement deemed less strict. That said, most communities will make a fuss about someone who's mother converted calling themselves Jewish, even if they wouldn't accept that conversion. TimeEngineer (talk) 08:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TimeEngineer, hence why I said "fairly". Converts are definitely seen as outsiders by a lot of religious Jews, depending on the denomination but I don't think anyone will challenge the status of such a public figure because it will almost certainly create a huge backlash.

Its certainly not for us to decide though. Omnis Scientia (talk) 08:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are contradictory reports about her age or year of birth, but I assume this will be clarified soon, see this: [1] PatGallacher (talk) 23:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its why I took the most recent profile on her. It was detailed and gave the year and age when she was elected Cardiff University Students' Union president. Hopefully we will get an exact date soon but the approximate one works for the moment. Omnis Scientia (talk) 00:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although it's not really that important, the UK register of births, deaths and marriages is pretty much public domain, just not always convenient to access unless someone has already put in the effort. From freebmd.org it can be determined that the most likely entry is from September 1973. https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?scan=1&r=250983417:2014&d=bmd_1719440052 Mikeprotts (talk) 21:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mikeprotts, its not considered a reliable source by Wikipedia so it can't be used. Hence why it was removed in the first place. Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not only that, it contravenes Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons to include public records as sources for living people. TrottieTrue (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why is she Lady Starmer?

Perhaps the reason for the "Lady" in her name is obvious to British readers, but it isn't to others in Wikipedia's global readership. Could it be explained in a footnote or in some other way? Moncrief (talk) 04:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Moncrief, she is the wife of someone who is knighted (Sir Keir Starmer) so that's her official title. Omnis Scientia (talk) 08:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I hadn't realized until today that he is a Sir. Moncrief (talk) 05:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lady Starmer is not "The Right Honourable"

Lady Starmer should not have "The Right Honourable" above her name. @MAL_MALDIVE added it by comparison to The Right Honourable The Lady Wilson of Rievaulx who was the wife of a baron, not the wife of a knight. The wife of a knight is not entitled to "The Right Honourable" unless they are a privy counsellor, which Lady Starmer is not. HMQSasha (talk) 12:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh! I thout we should give it, when the person is called "lady" in British. sorry. MAL MALDIVE (talk) 13:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. British titles are very confusing, most British people don't even understand them. HMQSasha (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries at all. There are a lot of titles and, as HMQSasha has noted, even the Brits don't follow who is called what. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Children

Why are the names of her children omitted? (Redacted) The information is publicly available via an easily citeable source - the General Register Office Birth Index. 146.200.29.183 (talk) 16:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Citation URL? MAL MALDIVE (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The GRO website: https://www.gov.uk/general-register-office 146.200.29.183 (talk) 17:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agnostic on including the names, but I'll note that the couple evidently don't ever speak the names in public. Moncrief (talk) 19:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was just going to say something along these lines re the Starmers making effort not to mention their children's names in public. Per WP:BLPPRIVACY I don't think we should include the children's names. GnocchiFan (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:BLPPRIMARY such public records are not permitted as sources and per WP:BLPPRIVACY we wouldn't include them anyway. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Um, if wikipolicy forbids giving the kids' names, shouldn't this discussion be deleted? Textorus (talk) 09:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Textorus, its not in the article so its fine. Omnis Scientia (talk) 01:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So you say, @Omnis Scientia. Can you back up "it's fine" with a quote from official wikipolicy? Textorus (talk) 02:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Textorus, I cannot. What I can say that this is a talk page which is for discussions about wikipolicy such as this.

Just to be safe, though, I will contact the oversight team so they can handle it. Omnis Scientia (talk) 08:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, @Omnis Scientia. I'm not particularly interested in the Starmers, but child safety is important in this vicious digital age. Textorus (talk) 10:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're 100% right. My only worry was that a regular user removing talk discussions might also be against policy. But oversight has handled it and the info is redacted now. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Age

Why is her year of birth not confirmed yet? SferaEbbasta87 (talk) 07:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it says here she's 60?

Check this SferaEbbasta87 (talk) 07:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SferaEbbasta87, last week's Guardian said that the (very few) articles saying she's 60 are off by a decade. See here for the Guardian article and also the first reference where it says that she elected Unveristy Student union president in 1995 at the age of 21. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:30, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This Tatler article gives her age as 49 in January 2023, supporting a 1973 birth date. We could do with a better source though, if there is one. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 12:29, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A bit of rummaging finds this Companies House record of a "Vicky Alexander" (born June 1973) as a sabbatical officer at Cardiff student union in 1995. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 12:37, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jean-de-Nivelle, per WP:BLPPRIMARY, we can't use public records as sources. The current age is taken from a biographical article referenced in the article. Its not exact but approximate and matches the age in the Tatler article you have linked. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, perhaps we shouldn't use public records as sources, but can't we make use of them informally to determine which of the published dates are plausible? If Companies House gives a date of birth in 1973, but some sources are giving her age as 60, I'd be inclined to disregard those sources. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 14:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Starmer being aged 60 has been debunked in more recent articles, including the Guardian one in my initial reply so we can safely rule that out. I can't be 100% certain even then whether 1973 is correct or not. My stance is that the exact date of birth should replace the approximate one.

I'm on the lookout for it though. Hopefully she sits down for an interview of sorts or something. Omnis Scientia (talk) 15:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.politics.co.uk/reference/lady-victoria-starmer-keir-starmers-wife/ Well this source does not seem that reliable but it states her year of birth as being 1963. It's quite surprising that the exact birth year is also not available to the reliable sources such as well-known newspapers and websites. Are there any books on her ? Looking forward to your responses. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 17:01, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MSincccc, there's a book on Keir Starmer by Tom Baldwin but not on Victoria though I'm sure she is mentioned in it.

And yes, the Guardian did debunk the polticics.co.uk age which, as you will have noticed, didn't get her title right either. So definitely not reliable. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're curious, you'll find a full date of birth in the filing history of UNIONFINCH Ltd. for August 1995. I presume there's no reason a jounalist or biographer couldn't have found the same information, but as "Omnis Scientia" rightly says, we should wait until they do before adding it to the article. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 18:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jean-de-Nivelle, likely and understandably because books aimed at writing about her husband will write about her in relation to him rather than focus on her. They will give the basic biography of her but not all of it. She is also quite private.

Also journalists are seldom interested in wives of politicians, unfortunately. They don't make the news unless they do something big or outrageous. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:17, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead wording/order?

Current lead: British former solicitor and the wife of Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and leader of the Labour Party. As of July 2024, she works for the National Health Service (NHS) as an occupational health worker.

Question: Why is the first item "former solicitor" instead of her current role of "occupational health worker"? Should her current role be mentioned first? TJMSmith (talk) 00:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated it. Since her notability comes via her husband being the British PM, I put that first and wrote a seperate line for her career as a solicitor and NHS worker. Omnis Scientia (talk) 11:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Linkification

I'm just curious as to why it's perfectly fine to provide linkifcation in this article to the National Health Service, Gospel Oak, World War II, Judaism, Hodge Jones & Allen, street crime, 10 Downing Street, Channing School, Highgate, London, Keir Starmer, Doughty Street Chambers, Cardiff University, student union, Essex, the Labour Party, the Conservative Party, John Patten, Buckingham Palace, Charles III, Shabbat and the Liberal Jewish Synagogue but when I provided linkification on 11 July 2024 to Victoria Starmer being a vegetarian, it was reverted in less than 30 minutes.

I'm not a vegetarian myself. Is there something wrong with vegetarianism that readers shouldn't click on the article to read more about it? Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]