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Zemie Zabrane

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Authorship removed:

Western Krai (Russian: Западный край) or Stolen Lands (Polish: Ziemie Zabrane) is an unofficial name, introduced in 1834 by a Polish historian Maurycy Mochnacki
Besides the confusing sentence structure, the term "zemie zabrane" was known well before, eg. Congress of Vienna (1815)[1]. I tried hard to find the origin of the term, with no success; neither the origin of the attribution to Mochnacki (who indeed frequently used this term even before his death (1834) :-( (or the publication of Powstanie narodu polskiego w roku 1830 i 1831) ). Staszek Lem (talk) 22:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Name

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Ping User:Marcelus. Should this be under Russian or Polish name? Right now this is using Russian... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why not English? Western Province. Or are we talking about Taken lands vs Western krai? Marcelus (talk) 23:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus I started a proper RM below. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:23, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 September 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 12:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]


The current name is a mix of English and Russian. Per WP:USEENGLISH, why not use all English? While the "Western Krai" is used in English sources, so is "Western Land" for this context ([2], [3], [4] (this work also uses the term Territories instead of Land). "Western Territory" is an English alternative name used in some sources: [5], [6], [7], [8].

The same is true for Northwestern / Southwestern Krais, which are also referred to some scholars in full English and NW/SW Lands: [9] (click view all uses to see uses for NW/SW in the book), [10], [11], [12] (territory), [13] (territory again).

Note I don't have a preference in land vs territory, whatever the majority votes for will be ok with redirects from alt names (Northwestern Territory, Southwestern Territory, plus possibly names with dashes and wihout like North West Land, North Western Land, South West Land, South Western Land, North West Territory, North Western Territory, South West Territory, South Western Territory, which are also used here and there in this context, for example here: [14], [15] etc). (I didn't list the variants with dashes, also used...). It does appear that the term territory is a bit ambigious however, so land may be better for disambiguation reasons.

Two additional notes: yes, the full English names are a bit generic and occasionally are used to refer to other regions of the world, such as Canadian or American land or such. And I did consider the Polish terms ("Taken Lands") but they are not neutral. So my preference is to use English, and if needed, we can deal with alternative meanings through disambigs and hatnotes and such.

PS. For consistency, please note that Vistula Krai redirects to Vistula Land already and has been stable under that name for many years. There is also the Krais of the Russian Empire which at this point is little but a disambig, sigh. For more contextr, see also Krai. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:57, 11 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 08:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But the least objectionable of these terms might be better than "Krai", which is meaningless to Anglophones.
Which English term would be historically the least ambiguous or inaccurate?
If one of them is chosen, for immediate disambiguation it would be well to follow it with "(Russian Empire)".
Perhaps "Region" would be a reasonably accurate rendition of the Russian Krai?
Thus: "Western Region (Russian Empire)"; "Northwestern Region (Russian Empire)"; "Southwestern Region (Russian Empire)".
Were any of these regions subdivided into equivalents of today's oblasts (provinces)?
Nihil novi (talk) 18:54, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We do not rename articles because certain words are "meaningless to Anglophones". This is an encyclopaedia, not an idiot's guide for those who cannot be bothered to follow a blue link. I speak as an Anglophone! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.