Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Admiral William Brown

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Article has been improved since nomination. (non-admin closure) ASTIG️🎉 _{(HAPPY 2023)} 12:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Admiral William Brown

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This article doesn't meet WP:MUSIC for notability guidelines. The only reference in the article is to a political-opinion piece on Irish attitudes to the Falklands War. There do not seem to be enough other robust sources to justify a separate article. The little information that might be justified by robust sources can be incorporated into either the main article for William Brown (admiral) or to The Wolfe Tones (the band who recorded it). Epa101 (talk) 13:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. Epa101 (talk) 13:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Epa101 (talk) 13:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since I began work on this, I see that two other sources have been added to the article. OK, fair enough. I still think that the little information that's justified by robust sources can go in the other pages. There doesn't seem enough to justify a separate article for this song. Epa101 (talk) 13:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to William Brown (admiral). Only found passing mentions of the song's existence. Song is already mentioned on both the admiral's and band's pages, could merge the part about it charting, maybe a couple other sourced lines. I'd also recommend a new redirect of Admiral William Brown (song) going to A Sense of Freedom and a {{redirect}} hatnote on the Admiral's page. QuietHere (talk) 13:54, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changing vote to keep per further coverage found below. Good thing other editors thought to check Spanish-language sources, I don't think that crossed my mind. No need for the move/redirect either but I will add a hatnote anyway, don't think it'd hurt. QuietHere (talk) 20:13, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military and Argentina. QuietHere (talk) 13:54, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
~~Comment~~. In terms of the title, and per QuietHere, there could well be an argument for Admiral William Brown to be a redirect to the William Brown (admiral) article. (In my own WP:BEFORE I found at least one instance where it was expected that the Admiral William Brown title was targeted to an article on the person). In terms of the content, if Admiral William Brown (song) is created (as a redirect or otherwise), then - at the very least - the reliably cited content of the current article should be merged/moved there. Otherwise, in terms of WP:NSONG and my own WP:BEFORE, I noted at least one mention in a book, several news sources (including in the Spanish/Argentine Clarín news outlet [1]) which seem to deal with the song/topic in some depth. Certainly more than a trivial/passing mention. Also, that the song was in the Irish Singles Chart for 7 weeks, peaking at number 4, would also seem to contribute to NSONG. Guliolopez (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. While avoiding a specific recommendation (!vote) myself until now, based on the sources identified (by myself in my own BEFORE, and by Binksternet and Jacona and others in theirs), it seems clear that the song has been a primary topic of news coverage in the UK, Argentina and elsewhere. Coupled with the chart placement expectation of NSONG, I don't see how deletion (on notability grounds) can be justified. Certainly I don't support deletion. Guliolopez (talk) 16:56, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kommentar I don't see any question as to whether this is notable, it clearly is. There are multitudes of Spanish-language articles about this song, the Wolfe Tones, and how this song caused them to be banned in England. Whether the song should be addressed in a stand-alone article as a navigational tool or within either The Wolfe Tones or the William Brown (admiral) articles is a good question. My gut feeling is that it is probably useful to mention it in both articles while keeping the details in this article, for both consistency and for the reader's experience. — Jacona (talk) 14:30, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The subject is notable, and while it could easily be contained in the other articles, I believe it will be better from a navigational and maintenance standpoint to keep a separate article. — Jacona (talk) 17:07, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can you put at least a few links to the multitudes of articles please? It is not true that the Wolfe Tones were banned in England. That makes me a bit wary of whether the sources that you've found are all robust, so can you share them please? Epa101 (talk) 18:54, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Epa101, I’m away right now, but start with the Spanish language source already in the article. After a quick read, cut and paste the Spanish title into your favorite search engine and see what you come up with. — Jacona (talk) 20:26, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I've tried doing this and this and, then in Argentina's google, this. Clarin is probably a valid source, but many of the other results that I find are either copies of the Clarin article or from sources that would not normally be considered reliable on Wikipedia. A search on Argentina's Google Books brings up this book, so I remain open to the possibility that it's mentioned herein, but I cannot check it. Epa101 (talk) 15:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Searching in other languages is very difficult. I think it is helpful to try multiple searches, more so than when in one's first language. As to your comments, there are two separate Clarin articles in my list below. Newspapers.com has its own challenges, (including spelling Wolfe as Woolfe), but there are a few articles to be found there as well. IMO, there's plenty to demonstrate notability for the song with what's in the article, the only question is whether it would be better to have it included in another article instead. I think this article is fine, although renaming it to make it clear the article is about the song and not the man would be an improvement. — Jacona (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Epa101, I'm sorry you had difficulty finding sources that say the song was banned. Whether it was in fact banned or not, sources say that it was banned, and that is worthy of mention - with due qualification of the sources, of course. Many thanks to User:Guliolopez. I limited the Spanish search to Argentina, and came up with these quick 4. [2] , [3], [4], [5]. Mi Espanol no es muy bueno, so I'm not going to go into them in detail, just showing you they exist and appear to be significant. Since the subject is more of interest in Argentina than elsewhere, it seems reasonable to look at sources in their language, and not just that of the Colonial power decried in the song. Jacona (talk) 14:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the links. Sources in Spanish [or in any of Argentina's indigenous languages] are just as valid as those in English, yes. Nonetheless, they still need to be reliable sources. Numbers 3 and 4 there look reliable. Number 2 seems like a mirrored article of number 3, so I don't think that counts. Number 5 is on social media, and we usually don't use that. On the ban, I would also note that it's quite common for musicians to claim that they've been "banned" when they're not being played much. I recall Eminem complaining that "radio won't even play my jam" when he was actually being played all the time. Epa101 (talk) 15:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The song has been discussed in depth in multiple reliable sources. Binksternet (talk) 16:12, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep on the basis that "it's controversial lyrics caused all of The Wolfe Tones's music to be banned on radio in the UK since 1983". Also per Binksternet. Ceoil (talk) 05:56, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that claim is true. I can see that Brian Warfield claimed, in the Clarin article, that the song was banned in England, but he's hardly a neutral or reliable source of information. The UK generally doesn't ban songs. I am aware that the Pogues' Streets of Sorrow/Birmingham Six is an exception, but it's certainly very rare and this song didn't get anything like the controversy that the Pogues song got. Epa101 (talk) 12:47, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Antwort. Whether via the Broadcasting Ban, the Independent Broadcasting Authority, or the BBC's own mechanisms, any number of songs have been banned (expressly or de facto) in the UK. Whether for use of language, references to sexuality, or political reasons. Including the political situation in NI and The Troubles. The Pogues is not an isolated example of the latter. Others include Paul McCartney, The Police (Invisible Sun), McGuinness Flint (Let The People Go), Marxman (Sad Affair), etc. (All mentioned in this self-reflective BBC source on BBC censorship). The linked primary source is perhaps not ideal. And should perhaps be reflected as "According to the group [it was banned..]". But it is not entirely true to suggest that the "UK generally doesn't ban songs" - when there is well-documented and self-acknowledged history of same. Guliolopez (talk) 13:49, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not being played by the BBC doesn't count as a ban. The Wolfe Tones were not played by RTÉ in Ireland during this era either. That doesn't mean that they were banned in Ireland.

The other things that you mention were generally not applied to music, although, as I said before, the Pogues song shows that it did happen very occasionally. Epa101 (talk) 14:40, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. To relate this back to this specific song, is anyone saying that the attitude of the BBC or RTÉ changed after this specific song? The Wolfe Tones were already known as backing the Provisional IRA before this song, which was presumably a big reason against playing them. Epa101 (talk) 14:51, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There may have been a bit of self-banning going on. Newspapers.com has a number of articles like this one — Jacona (talk) 15:05, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Meets WP:NSONG with sources presented above. They, along with the ones in the article, are reliable and in-depth enough IMV. SBKSPP (talk) 03:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - The article has been nicely improved since the nomination, and the song achieved notability thanks to coverage about the lyrics and being banned (or whatever the appropriate term) by the BBC. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 17:11, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.