Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bloody Elbow

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Regardless of whether the nomination has been withdrawn/extant keep vote, there is a consensus to keep Star Mississippi 02:10, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bloody Elbow

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~~Fails WP:SIGCOV and WP:RS, mentions in sources are in passing or are from it's own website. Was unable to find anything sources that independently cover this website.~~ Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 04:21, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn by nominator Article has greatly improved, sources are sound and there is a long trackable history of coverage. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 03:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Martial arts and Websites. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 04:21, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bloody Elbow is one of the most famous and most visited MMA websites in the world. It's verified on twitter and Facebook and has hundreds of thousands of followers across those platforms. I write for this site and am struggling to see why this article would be recommended for deletion when similar site MMA Fighting (which is also owned by Vox Media) has a Wikipedia page. This is my first time attempting to post something o Wikipedia, so please forgive my lack of skill and knowledge in this process. But Bloody Elbow is extremely well known within the MMA media world and is at the forefront of reporting when it comes tonissues like anti-labor practices in MMA and the intersections between combat sports and politics/crime/conflicts. If I need to put more sources in there, I will, but I really feel as though the current links show thay this site is notable (our work being featured on HBO's Real Sports feels like undeniable proof of this). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:3C01:FA00:AD5B:D5F9:436D:1AB6 (talk) 05:52, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey no worries, if you can find some sources that support that just post the links here and I'll add them to the article for you. Sorry if this caused any frustrations or anything, I'm not well versed in MMA but when I went looking for sources I wasn't able to find any. But you probably know more than me about this which is great because you probably know where the sources we need for this article are. Give these policies and guidelines a quick once over (WP:RS, WP:GNG, & WP:INDEPENDENT) and if you find something that you think works just post it here and I'll help you out so we can get this taken care of asap. One of the principles of Wikipedia is we assume good faith in people's edits so don't worry if you make a mistake or misstep we're all here to help. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 06:10, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for getting back to me and providing this advice. I must admit making a page is quite intimidating, so I appreciate the encouragement here. Below are some links which I think demonstrate Bloody Elbow's renown and popularity within the mma website industry (thanks again!):

https://blog.sbnation.com/2010/3/6/1357488/better-know-a-blogger-bloody

https://www.websiteiq.com/top-sites/fighting-mma/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1731394-the-ufc-fans-guide-to-the-internet-the-mma-media-musts

https://martialartsdesigner.com.au/top-martial-arts-websites/

https://mymmanews.com/top-mma-news-sites/

https://aelieve.com/rankings/websites/category/sports/top-mma-sites/

https://feedly.com/i/top/mma-blogs

https://blog.feedspot.com/mma_blogs/

Do you believe these are sufficient? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:3C01:FA00:AD5B:D5F9:436D:1AB6 (talk) 13:09, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails WP:SIGCOV. All of the sources listed here are self published blogs/websites and are therefore not reliable.4meter4 (talk) 20:31, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, just got busy with other stuff today. So we try to stay away from blogs and look for independent sources. How about you make an account, it'll make it easier for us to communicate back and forth and it'll protect your privacy. Everytime you post here without an account we all see your IP address. I'll make this a priority tomorrow morning and try to find some things that can help bolster this article. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 08:59, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All of those links are not "self-published blogs/websites". Bleacher Report is owned by Warner Bros. And SB Nation is owned by Vox media. Neither are akin to Tumblr or something without editorial oversight.

Also, I believe you may be discounting the edits on the oage which show the multiple award nominations for the site and their journalists from The World MMA Awards, which is a respected award within the industry.

The recent edits also show that BE's work has been cited by HBO, The New York Times and the Washington Post. I don't think those outlets would do second hand reporting sourcing a non notable media source.

When a NYT writer decided to learn about how to cover MMA, they studied Bloody Elbow. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/insider/reporter-mixed-martial-arts.html

The updates also show that notablenjndivoduals have worked at Bloody Elbow, including pro fighters past and present.

BE's work, within the industry, is known to be unique and important. They are the only site that rigorously covers incidents of domestic violence, anti-labor practices and connections between fighters and criminals (Kinahan) and warlords (Kadyrov) at the expense of gaining access to organizations like the UFC.

BE is also home to Karim Zidan, whose coverage specializes in sportswashing. He has traveled the world to talk to audiences about this practise. He was on a panel with Gary Kasparov at the Oslo Freedom Forum and has also given a talk at Princeton University.

https://karimzidan.com/discussion-saudi-arabias-sportswashing-tactics-w-karim-zidan-garry-kasparov-areej-al-sadhan/

https://oslofreedomforum.com/speakers/karim-zidan/

https://karimzidan.com/the-politics-of-mma-in-russia-a-conversation-with-karim-zidan-at-princeton/

BE is an extremely notable media source in the world of MMA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:3C01:FA00:AD5B:D5F9:436D:1AB6 (talk) 00:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's some really good points, I didn't know that Bleach Report was owned by Warner Brothers. Thanks for this honestly it's really helpful. Also thanks for being cool and helping us. By working to establish notability we're preventing the article from being deleted down the road. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 09:00, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I've gone and added some sources. For whatever reason I never even thought to check the academic sources. That's my own bias and ignorance which is on me. I found Bloody Elbow is used a LOT in MMA research...which as an academic I should have known existed. Everything from gender studies to business school cites this website. I think the problem here is that Bloody Elbow and a handful of other sites are the only real sources for MMA information so they aren't documented in ways that most articles are used to. I'm going to put some more work into this ove rthe coming days but as it stands now I believe it passes notability and any minor issues that pop up can be handled with our IP editors assistance. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 09:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for that! I'd forgotten about academic papers. Here's another one: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1527002519885432

Bloody Elbow was also named in a report from NPR, where they called us 'an online karate magazine', which has since become a meme. https://www.npr.org/2014/03/23/293255143/new-test-improves-detection-of-performance-enhancing-drugs

I should also let you know that this page will likely become a target of vandalism and abuse. Bloody Elbow is quite alone in being an obviously progressive platform within an extremely right wing sport. Our writers are often subjected to online abuse, many of which has been encouraged by actual pro fighters and UFC President Dana White (who is very anti-media, he just appeared on Tucker Carlson celebrating that stance). 2607:FEA8:3C01:FA00:B014:2204:2C82:810D (talk) 11:51, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Dr vulpes, you nominated this article for deletion and now cast a Keep vote. Which reflects your opinion on this article? If you believe this article should be kept, you should probably withdraw your nomination. It wouldn't close this AFD but without doing so, your take on this article is very confusing for any editor who wants to participate in this discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Opss I knew I forgot to do something, thanks for the nudge @Liz! Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 03:31, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No significant coverage has been demonstrated in my opinion. Majority of the sources listed are literally just websites that rank other websites, some of them with a brief description of the site's process and reputation. The SBNation article cannot be used as it is a forum post by some fan of the site. WebsiteIQ, feedly.com, feedspot articles don't even go into any depth on their ranked websites. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 06:43, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 13:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but what about The New York Times, Washington Post, HBO Real Sports and all the academic papers?

Here's an article from deadspin:

"SB Nation’s combat-sports sites—MMA Fighting, MMA Mania, Cageside Seats, Bloody Elbow, and Bad Left Hook—account for a sizable chunk of total SB Nation traffic, about 15-20 percent over the seven months we analyzed. While staffers at the high-profile blog MMA Fighting, which was acquired by Vox Media in 2011, are full-time, salaried employees like those at SBNation.com, the other combat-sports sites, like the team sites, are staffed mostly by people earning a small monthly stipend. “SB Nation employs three full-time employees and approximately 45-50 paid contributors across Bloody Elbow, Cagesideseats, MMAmania, and Bad Left Hook,” a Vox spokeswoman told me."

https://deadspin.com/leaked-data-show-vast-majority-of-sb-nation-page-views-1803138754

Here is Business Insider citing an original report from BE https://www.businessinsider.com/ufc-fighter-jon-jones-could-get-slapped-with-a-4-year-ban-2018-2

Here is the American Prospect interviewing a BE writer https://prospect.org/power/incredible-fight-trump-and-ultimate-fighting-championship/

Here is the National Center for Domestic and Sexual Violence citing original BE reporting. http://www.ncdsv.org/publications_UFC.html

Reference from Tech Crunch https://techcrunch.com/2013/10/15/sb-nation-partners-with-blogtalkradio/

The Verge citing original reporting https://www.theverge.com/2013/4/9/4204908/martial-arts-champ-responds-to-rape-allegations-with-internet-marketing-trickery

The SBN Lakers site referencing Bloody Elbow's success within the network:

"And, if you only consider blogs which started from scratch (some blogs, like CelticsBlog, existed in another form before transferring to SB Nation), SSR might be the fastest growing blog in SB Nation's history. I asked my boss if anybody had accomplished what we've done faster. It turns out this isn't exactly a known fact, but the only possibility he could think of was Bloody Elbow, which is only one of the foremost Mixed Martial Arts blog on the entire web. As a point of reference, Bloody Elbow had 1.9 million hits last month alone, and we might not have started out as fast as they did."

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/platform/amp/2010/7/10/1563020/silver-screen-and-roll-hits-the

Print publication The Week referencing Bloody Elbow https://www.theweek.co.uk/ufc/100417/conor-mcgregor-retires-how-ufc-mma-fans-reacted-twitter-dana-white

A Bloody Elbow piece featured in the book 'Best Canadian Sportswriting' https://books.google.ca/books?id=y2a1DgAAQBAJ&pg=PT298&lpg=PT298&dq=%22sb+nation%22+%22bloody+elbow%22+-bloodyelbow.com&source=bl&ots=TXhcTrwN0T&sig=ACfU3U0SJnNnNs1WVLtVv3ErXh4S83o8VQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiSg-TjquL6AhXKDEQIHc4FBD04KBDoAXoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22sb%20nation%22%20%22bloody%20elbow%22%20-bloodyelbow.com&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:3C01:FA00:AD5B:D5F9:436D:1AB6 (talk) 13:28, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The importance of those nominations at the World MMA Awards shouldn't be understated, either. It's the major awards show for the sport and is also televised

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2020/12/reminder-12th-annual-world-mma-awards-air-tonight-on-cbs-sports-network — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:3C01:FA00:AD5B:D5F9:436D:1AB6 (talk) 13:42, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: In my humble opinion, the article in its' current form passes WP:SIGCOV with decent sources. Bloody Elbow clearly emphasizes the quality in-depth articles instead of run-of-the-mill bout announcements and reports some other MMA outlets are known for. Ticelon (talk) 14:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting and noting that the nomination has been withdrawn by the AFD nominator.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.