Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cimmeria (Conan)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Hyborian Age#Nations and landmarks. Tone 14:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cimmeria (Conan)

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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline and the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) requirement. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant English-language coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. The PROD was removed with no rationale, so here we go. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 03:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Cimmeria is the homeland of Conan — he's known in some circles as "Conan the Cimmerian" — so naturally the subject has been discussed quite a bit in the literary criticism of Robert E. Howard's work.
- Howard wrote a poem called "Cimmeria", which was first published in the Winter 1965 issue of The Howard Collector (according to the 2003 volume The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian).
- The Robert E. Howard Guide by Patrice Louinet (Skelos Press, 2018) discusses Cimmeria on several pages.
- Robert E. Howard: A Literary Biography edited by Bob McClain (Pulp Hero Press, 2018) also discusses Cimmeria, including the influence of Howard's hometown in Texas on the creation of the fictional land.
- The Internet Archive has a smattering of issues of The Howard Collector, and there's some discussion of Cimmeria in the Spring 1972 issue and the Spring 1971 issue. Neither is an amazing example, but I think they establish that it's likely that other issues went more in-depth on the main character's homeland.

I believes that this demonstrates notability. — Toughpigs (talk) 04:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- - Can you tell me how did you access The Robert E. Howard Guide and Robert E. Howard: A Literary Biography? Neither has a preview on Google Books. I'd be happy to withdraw this nom if I can verify that there are sources that discuss the topic in depth and that go beyond a PLOT summary. PS. The existence of Cimmeria (poem) can skew the search results, did you verify that the works you mention discuss the fictional land, and not the poem? And as for The Howard Collector, isn't it a primary source - a compilation of posthumously edited and published works by the author? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I provided links above to both of those books' Amazon pages. Click "Look Inside" and then search for "cimmeria". The Howard Collector is not a primary source; it's a literary magazine that includes essays about Howard's work. — Toughpigs (talk) 04:50, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for teaching me a new trick (Amazon preview). The Robert E. Howard Guide First Edition contains a paragraph on page 133 about Cimmeria, but it is a pure plot summary. All other mentions of this term in the book that I see are inconsequential, usually related to Conan's "full name", i.e. Conan of Cimmeria". the other book is even worse, it mentions the poem Cimmeria on page 137, but does not discuss. On page 139 it quotes Conan describing Cimmeria in few sentences, and there is no analysis of this PLOT at all. Again, all other mentions of the name Cimemria in those books are inconsequential. I stand by my analysis that no source discusses this plot element beyond a very basic plot summary (btw, as far as I can tell, Cimmeria is not a setting of any book or story of Conan, and it has never been even described in depth by Howard, outside a few mentions in passing). As for The Howard Collector, I don't see how it meets WP:RS - it seems more like a fanzine than an academic journal. In either case, you yourself admit those are problematic sources; the second is a very court one sentence mention, the first one is a bit longer but it is again pure PLOT summary. All that you have managed to prove is that we are dealing with an extreme example of WP:FANCRUFT here; no scholar has analyzed the land of Cimmeria, because there is nothing to analyze, the extent of its description in primary sources is few sentences, and trying to make an article out of this is an exercise in futility (and fancrufting). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "as far as I can tell, Cimmeria is not a setting of any book or story of Conan" It is the setting of Conan of Venarium (2003) by Harry Turtledove, which expands on an Aquilonian invasion of Cimmeria mentioned by Howard. Cimmeria is also the setting of several Conan tales in the Marvel Comics publications on Conan. Dimadick (talk) 15:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The nominator has not followed WP:BEFORE because it seems apparent that they have not considered alternatives to deletion. Apart from articles about Conan and its authors, there are also several other articles about Cimmeria. As the material is quite complex, it's best to keep this aspect separate for clarity and simplicity. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:38, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- BEFORE has been followed. Neither I nor anyone here has found a single source that discusses the topic in-depth. Prove me wrong by showing a source that discusses this concept in a paragraph or more and is not purely a summary of a plot. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:13, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Toughpigs has the sources covered well enough. The point about WP:BEFORE is that there are numerous other steps specified such as considering alternatives to deletion. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:28, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - The sources don't meet GNG/RS (mentions in passing). As for alternatives, there is no referenced content to merge, but I am not opposed to soft deletion (redirect) if this is what you mean. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - And now the nominator violates WP:BLUDGEON as well as WP:BEFORE. The sources are fine as they pass WP:SIGCOV. My !vote stands. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look Andrew, when your arguments are refuted, you criticize the person, it looks like you are trying to deny them the right to participate in the discussion.... Not very impressive, really.GizzyCatBella 🍁 04:10, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, WP:BLUDGEON does say that when an individual responds to every single comment that disagrees with them, as Piotrus is doing here, it indicates that they're more interested in "winning" than they are in reasoned discussion. I suggest that Piotrus steps back, allows other editors to look at the article and the sources, and make their own judgment. — Toughpigs (talk) 04:38, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This WP:BLUDGEON is only an essay that appears to talk about choking free speech possibly used to silence critics when one runs out of actual reasoning does not seem like the best link to cite in any discussion, in my opinion. I am still not impressed by the failure of some people to address actual explanations given here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When someone challenges my !vote I have found that, unless I respond, that some closers suppose that the challenge negates the !vote. If my views are still valid, it is therefore necessary to reiterate and reinforce them. In this case, I am very sure that the topic is notable, that we have adequate sources to document and develop this and so the primary policy here is WP:ATD which states that, "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." My !vote stands, by Crom! Andrew🐉(talk) 09:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or Merge - fictional land of the Conan the Barbarian? Maybe merge to Conan the Barbarian but a separate article? GizzyCatBella🍁 16:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merger is not done by deletion as, if the page is deleted, it is no longer available for reference and attribution. See WP:MAD for details. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added “or Merge” to the my previous comment above. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:14, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Conan is the single most most famous barbarian in fiction. As such, his homeland is notable as the archetypal barbarian homeland, the one on which other fictional depictions of barbarian homelands are often based. His homeland and its culture is such an important part of his character that he is often known as Conan the Cimmerian. This is comparable to fictional homelands of other major fictional characters such as Krypton (comics), Tatooine, The Shire, Wakanda. Like those other locations, Cimmeria has appeared not only in literature, but also on other forms of media such as film and TV. —Lowellian (reply) 20:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:NOTINHERITED. We are not proposing to delete the Conan article, but about his homeland, which is not discussed in sources in depth. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:12, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't claim that notability was inherited from Conan. I argued that Cimmeria has garnered its own notability by becoming the archetypal barbarian homeland, appearing in many media formats and inspiring works of fiction other than Conan, with comparability to other notable fictional homelands. —Lowellian (reply) 06:30, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any sources for this assertion? Which reliable source states that " Cimmeria has become the archetypal barbarian homeland"? From what I see, this is our own original research conclusion, given the article still has no sources, and no source presented here states this. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Conan the Barbarian, per Piotrus all sources are either from unreliable sources or are nothing but in-universe plot description. The sources found by Toughpigs clearly do not cause this topic to pass GNG, and it's association with Conan does not make it notable per WP:NOTINHERITED. Devonian Wombat (talk) 05:16, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It is worth noting that Conan wikia/fandom's page on this (https://conan.fandom.com/wiki/Cimmeria) seems to overlap with ours; it is also likewise unreferenced (correction: it is actually referenced to Cimmeria (poem), which is more than what we can say about our current pitiful excuse for an article...). Anyway, deletion of this article will not affect anyone, since people searching for Cimmeria will find this in-universe entry there easily anyway, and there at least it doesn't look so out of place as on Wikipedia. As for those wanting to keep this article here, I still wait for someone to show that there are sources that allow us to have any kind of analysis/reception of this. If you think you know of such a source, please provide a quote here than shows said analysis, because WP:GOOGLEHITS are not cutting it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:43, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Hyborian Age as non-notable fictional cruft that is more suited for Wikia/Fandom. It has a mention in that article, which seems to be the best place for it._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 21:48, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as a topic that has insufficient coverage in reliable third party sources to meet the general notability guideline. Fan journals and officially licensed guides are not sufficiently independent of the material to be reliable for all but the least controversial material. This is also an unlikely search term, but I wouldn't object to a redirect if it helps produce a consensus. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The nomination improperly dismisses out of hand the large body of pre-Internet commentary on the author and his fiction, which includes nontrivial commentary on the sources and historical models for settings like this and the racial/racist political elements of the work. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong! (talk) 15:13, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- What commentary? Could you cite it? The article is still unrererence and has no 'further reading' section, if this is kept at the very least we should ensure this is referenced. (Polish Wikipedia, which is more inclusionst for fiction topics in general, will nevertheless delete articles that have zero sources...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:35, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 20:35, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or merge per discussion between Piotrus and Toughpigs. It's not that the current article has no sources. It's that the only sources that can be found are official guides and other fan service, and what little coverage is just plot summary. The other !keep votes assert notability without any sources. If there is reliable coverage that Howard's setting has racist overtones, it can always be added to another notable article. Jontesta (talk) 20:50, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would call Robert E. Howard: A Literary Biography a work of literary criticism, not "fan service". Works of literary and media criticism become "fancruft" when you don't have respect for the work. — Toughpigs (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or merge to the possible merge targets listed in the AfD discussion. I have no preference for which one, but the article isn't worth keeping due to the lack of in-depth coverage. That doesn't mean there isn't anything worth saving though, just that what is worth saving doesn't warrant its own article IMO. The new source provided by Toughpigs doesn't change that. Otherwise, it's worthy of deletion based on needing a fundamental re-write to meet Wikipedia's standards. Which isn't going to happen anyway with only a single in-depth source. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Hyborian Age#Nations and landmarks - The location's notability is tied entirely to the notability of the franchise as a whole, and there is not enough in reliable sources that goes beyond plot summary that would make this a needed spinout article from the main article on the setting as a whole. It is already covered a bit in that article, and more can be added based on the bits of sourced information Toughpigs brought up in this AFD. Since that sourced information is not actually in this article, though, an actual merger is not needed at this point. Rorshacma (talk) 23:20, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Piotrus et al. I had originally thought to redirect to Hyborian Age#Nations and landmarks, but when I actually went and read that section I found it was nearly 100% original reasearch. You can tell by all the "perhaps derived from" and similar, without any attempt at sourcing. I think that whole section is ripe for removal or rewrite, so redirecting anything there seems to me to be futile and a bad idea. Reyk _YO! 15:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Hyborian Age#Nations and landmarks. There is no WP:SIGCOV for this location and it's already discussed at Hyborian Age as the main article for the Conan setting. I see the delete comments and they're right that the target isn't well written either. A merge is fine but would need a rewrite. A delete wouldn't be that different from a redirect since the real search term is Cimmeria which can be pointed anywhere. Archrogue (talk) 18:57, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.