Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Guy Sauvin

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Guy Sauvin

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The Subject has only won "multiple medals" in Karate which does not constitute wiki notability for WP:NKICK. Meets neither WP:GNG nor WP:NSPORT. Lethweimaster (talk) 07:44, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 August 10. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 07:59, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Martial arts, and France. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 10:00, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think WP:NKICK is the correct criteria, more appropriate would be WP:MANOTE. Coverage in English of karate events from 50-60 years ago is going to be hard to find. However, a bronze medal at the world championships and 3 medals at the European championships means it's likely that coverage exists, if you have access to French newspapers and magazines from that long ago. There's coverage in English sources of the results and I think that level of accomplishment deserves the benefit of the doubt concerning notability. Papaursa (talk) 00:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MANOTE is an essay on notability, it does not supersede WP:NBLP. There are so many people who won "medals" in tournaments. There are countless tournament even to this day. Some even only have 3 people per division and they win "bronze" 3rd place our of 3 participant (example). Its especially common for Karate or Tae Kwon Do. The references on the French article also insufficient (archives):

forum Not reliable, forum, no mention of the subject N
akdtm.com non independant, blog N
World Championship 1972 Results Fight results, non significant N

I dont see anything that would satisfy notability even for WP:MANOTE. Bronze medal Lethweimaster (talk) 19:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No argument on the relative importance of the criteria. However, MANOTE can be considered and he clearly meets "repeated medalist ... in significant event". The WKF is the world's leading karate organization and is so recognized by the Olympics. He didn't finish 3rd among 3 entries in some minor event. There were only two events at the 1972 world championship (men's team and individual kumite) and 220 competitors[1]. He also won two gold and a silver medal in individual events at European championships. In addition, he was part of the French team that won gold medals at both the 1972 European and world championships. The current article links to the detailed coverage in Black Belt magazine of the European championships and has multiple pictures and prose of Sauvin. Papaursa (talk) 13:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep After further thought about his record, I believe his accomplishments merit inclusion in WP. Four medals at European championships (3 of them gold) and two medals (1 gold) at the world championships seems notable to me. Papaursa (talk) 03:22, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:12, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per career results, some additional refs found online: https://www.karatechambray.fr/2021/02/02/guy-sauvin-sensei-nomination-au-grade-de-9eme-dan/, https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=wHlaDeQRwggC&oi=fnd&pg=PA9&dq=%22Guy+Sauvin%22, https://www.academia.edu/download/76571432/000869339.pdf, https://www.proquest.com/docview/1152035715/C9EE7FBAE9C34C49PQ/, https://www.proquest.com/docview/1658793086/C9EE7FBAE9C34C49PQ/. - Indefensible (talk) 18:10, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to assess source brought up in this discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Sources from above are a message of congratulations to Sauvin from a local karate club's blog website (not RS), a passing mention in a book, two sentences in a master's thesis (not RS), two sentences of independent detail plus quotes in a newspaper, and another ~two sentences from the same outlet a couple years later. These are not enough to establish GNG.

JoelleJay (talk) 00:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources on French martial artists from pre-internet times (it was over 50 years ago) are difficult to come by, although the article mentions a few. It's reasonable to expect that there was coverage, especially in France, of a world and European champion at the time. Papaursa (talk) 12:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

NSPORT explicitly requires a SIGCOV source be cited for an article to be acceptable in mainspace, with no exceptions for historical athletes. JoelleJay (talk) 18:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep/keep Looking at the best sources that can be found via Google 1, 2; looking at his achievements (multiple times European and World Champion); and his books he wrote about Karate technique and French history of karate for me it’s clear he made a respectfull contribution to the sports of karate. Sources of his active career would be offline and cannot be found via Google. 109.37.152.3 (talk) 10:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 00:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. WP:SPORTBASIC and WP:BASIC are both met given coverage across several issues of Black Belt magazine as a fighter (including international representation), coach and teacher; LaDepeche; and the secondary coverage in KarateBushido.com. I have a feeling the IP editor above and Papaursa are right as well and that there is also a much deeper, verifiable WP:NSPORT claim as well. —siro χ o 06:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or Redirect to Full contact karate. Lethweimaster (talk) 08:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't your nomination to delete already count as a vote? Also, why redirect to a page that doesn't even mention him? Papaursa (talk) 01:37, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

— Duplicate !vote: Lethweimaster (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Older results are always harder to find but he seems to meet WP:SPORTBASIC and WP:BASIC. Some links on his French wiki Lewolka (talk) 12:16, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.