Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jorge Gracie (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The arguments that the article continues to fail to meet the notability guidelines are stronger than the keep arguments, which do not demonstrate why the wikipedia notability guidelines are met. Davewild (talk) 19:41, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jorge Gracie

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I was going to send this through DRV, but I think that the end result would be that this should go through a second AfD due to the new sources and some added material. I have no opinion on whether or not Gracie passes notability guidelines. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This individual is one of the first person to master Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He was one of the first fighters of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Significant coverage in many sources is considered by some to be the founder of BJJ. orge participated in the first organized BJJ event. He had the first undefeated run. He was for a period the only fighter in the Gracie clan. He set up a number of schools in different areas of Brazil. All of this should show that he was key in the development of BJJ.CrazyAces489 (talk) 07:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 09:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per the above - he's a notable person in the history of BJJ, period. In an effort at full disclosure, I've worked on bringing this article up to wiki standards myself, but only did so after I randomly discovered the article, learned who this individual was and his significance to the art, then felt myself compelled to try and keep this article in articlespace, as I genuinely feel its addition is good for the wiki and good for our readers. Removing it would do a disservice to anyone utilizing the wiki to learn more about the history of the art. Buddy23Lee (talk) 18:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Brazil-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete There is nothing in this article to show he's any more notable than he was in the first discussion. Having had some fights is not enough to make him notable and almost everything else relates to him being a Gracie. Notability is not inherited and there's no supporting evidence that he meets any notability criteria. Passing mentions and family history aren't enough. The fact that he has zero accomplishments listed at BJJ Heroes means even BJJ fans can't point to anything that makes him notable (except being a Gracie).Mdtemp (talk) 17:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I only commented in the last debate but that one still holds true. One of the big issues is that every Gracie and his dog has an article and not necessarily because they are notable. The term walled garden comes to mind and no - just being a Gracie does not confer notability. I am still holding off my opinion on Jorge - but I do understand both the need for clear references and the difficulty in finding them from an era that was pre-internet. It has to be demonstrated that Jorge was key to the development of BJJ. I am having trouble seeing any improvement in the argument for notability since the last AfD debate.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

comment From reading the sources he is

(1) the first person to MASTER what is now BJJ,

(2) the first long term BJJ fighter (Carlos had only a few matches and Helio had more than Carlos but "retired" at 25),

(3) the first two spread BJJ outside of Rio de Janiero, and

(4) the first person to publicly feud with the Gracie and leave the fold (becoming the first Creonte
[1]) CrazyAces489 (talk) 14:32, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Mdtemps reasoning. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I see nothing in this article that is any more convincing of notability than what was in the previously deleted article. I agree with Mdtemp's comments and stand by the reasons I gave at the first AfD discussion. The burden of proof is on those claiming notability and I don't see it. Papaursa (talk) 01:49, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Mentions of the subject's family and their relevance do not make it notable.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 10:38, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.