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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 09:20, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kings Courtyard Inn

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Kings Courtyard Inn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable business (hotel), sources cited are primary, and a search finds nothing beyond the usual social media, travel booking and similar sites. Fails WP:GNG / WP:ORGCRIT. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Few of the literally hundreds (or thousands?) of buildings in that district are mentioned in the 1977 documentation, not really a nomination per se because the district was among the list of super-obviously-worthy places recognized on the first day of the National Register of Historic Places program. --Doncram (talk) 22:39, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Additional local old sources, not on the internet, surely exist. Sources to start with include "The Early Architecture of Charleston" (1970, u of sc press), and others cited in NRHP doc. And Charleston planning dept files and other files supporting the 1931 designation of the district as the very first historic district (protected by local ordinance and an architecture review board) in the U.S. This one absolutely is a contributing property: it was built in 1833 (very old, for the U.S.), and of an old wonderful style, Greek Revival architecture, which was just then developing (1820-1850) as the first deliberately non-British high style in the U.S. And it absolutely is in the district. And it has Egyptian Revival elements, and it is on the main historic street of Charleston. In old sources it will not be known by its modern name. For this large district listed before NRHP documentation got more elaborate, it is true that the individual buildings are not individually noted and described. A building like this elsewhere would likely be individually NEHP-listed. I created the article. Isn't it also recognized in Historic Hotels of America, a program of the National Trust for Historic Preservation? Sure, the article would be improved by adding photos, but those will come. The talk page identifies it in places needing photos type category. --Doncram (talk) 22:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Re it is true that the individual buildings are not individually noted and described. Not so. A number of individual buildings are listed and described in the nomination form, and this isn't one of them. Deor (talk) 23:45, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User:Deor, the doc mentions there 400! buildings having _major_ architectural or other importance, which i interpret to be significant on a national level, and lists something like 40 of the very most critical ones. It mentions on PDF page 3 that more than 650 buildings are deemed "valuable to architectural historians (and mentions a source, the compilation records of 1929). It doesn't list, like modern NRHP HD nominations do, all those having regional or local significance, nor does it list buildings which would have been deemed non-contributing 56 years ago. Many of those would likely now be considered contributing; other NRHP HDs get updated sometimes to deem more contributing after they have aged past the 50-year threshold. --Doncram (talk) 00:26, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or at most merge into Charleston Historic District (though there doesn't seem to be a good place for that): notability is not inherited from the district it's in (if being a "contributing property" was enough, you could argue that any of the literally hundreds (or thousands?) of buildings in that district could be notable, even residential houses with no coverage). The National Trust for Historic Preservation is hardly official, being privately-funded and financially benefiting from the hotels (as they offer bookings and the like), hence not independent. The talk of architectural styles just screams WP:ILIKEIT and nothing that actually points to notability. WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES has no weight unless these sources can actually be found. Looking on ProQuest and Newspapers.com, the vast majority are advertisements or mentions that certainly don't meet WP:CORPDEPTH (mentions in lists of other lodgings in the area, or at most one sentence about it) while the others (again, very few) are local, not meeting WP:AUD. Online sources consist essentially of just reviews. All in all, no evidence that this passes NCORP. eviolite (talk) 23:20, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Historic districts are do not give 'blanket coverage' to all buildings within it's borders; each building is determined to worthy of the status "contributing property" or not.Djflem (talk) 03:37, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Struck per below. I still maintain that this being a "contributing property" (which is not at all verified in RSes) is nowhere near a valid argument for keeping. eviolite (talk) 18:31, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. Wenzell, Ron. (1983-11-20). "'Antique' Inn Offers Flavor Of the 1700's" (1 and 2). The State. Archived from the original (pages 1 and 2) on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23 – via Newspapers.com.

      The article notes: "A 130-year-old building which formerly housed retail shops and a roller skating rink has been converted into one of Charleston's newest inns. Kings Courtyard Inn at 198 King St. opened this month in the heart of the port city's antique district, and in conjunction with the opening is sponsoring antique symposiums each Saturday through Dec. 10. ... Erected in 1853 in the Greek revival style with Egyptian detail, the three-story building is one of the oldest and largest in the block. The two upper floors were originally used as an inn, catering to visiting plantation owners and shipping magnates. High-quality shops occupied the ground floor. In later years, millinery, grocery, and antique stores were among the building's tenants, and in the 1930s the third floor became an indoor skating rink."

      This is an article about the antique symposiums it is sponsoring:

      Wenzell, Ron (1983-11-20). "A Look At The Historic Past". The State. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23 – via Newspapers.com.

    2. Ramsey, Molly. "Fodor's Expert Review: Kings Courtyard Inn". Fodor's. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

      The review notes: "Nestled on famed King Street in the heart of Charleston’s historic district is Kings Courtyard Inn—a charming, recently redesigned circa-1853 property boasting three peaceful open-air courtyards and cheerful guest suites. Getting to your room is a treat: you’ll wind your way through old-school outdoor (yet covered) wooden hallways. Once there, enjoy historic architecture, modern furnishings, and gobs of natural light. A wide selection of room layouts accommodates a range of travelers, from singles in town for business to small families; a few suites even allow dogs."

    3. Fielding, Geoffrey (1984-08-12). "Elegant inns offer Charleston charm". The Baltimore Sun. p. 1G. ProQuest 539020501.

      The article provides 137 words of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "Just north on nearby King street is the Kings Courtyard Inn, which opened only last fall. Located in the center of Charleston's antique district, the inn was built in 1853. It was designed by Francis D. Lee, a noted architect, in the Greek Revival style and catered to plantation owners and merchant guests. During the years it has housed high-quality shops and private residences. The 34 rooms feature oversized beds, some with canopies, and many of the rooms have fireplaces. Many face one of the two interior courts. The amenities include sherry or wine upon arrival, and a continental breakfast — fruit, juice, pastries and coffee or tea — is served in the breakfast room, the courtyard, or the guest's room. Each evening the beds are turned down and complimentary brandy and chocolates are placed on the bedside tables."

    4. Perry, Lee Davis (2015). Insiders' Guide® to Charleston: Including Mt. Pleasant, Summerville, Kiawah, and Other Islands. Guilford, Connecticut: Globe Pequot Press. p. 56. ISBN 978-0-7627-9676-2. Retrieved 2022-05-23 – via Google Books.

      The book notes: "The Kings Courtyard Inn has an interesting history in that the building has come full circle in its lifetime The Greek Revival building, dating from 1853, began as an inn catering to 19th-century plantation owners and businessmen. Then it was a private residence; after that, the downstairs housed some of Charleston's most fashionable shops; and now it once again serves guests with luxury accommodations. ... This inn is part of the Charming Inns of Charleston group."

    5. Less significant coverage:
      1. Simmons, Jean (1991-04-21). "Doing the Charleston: Sweet-dream lodgings in the heart of things". The Dallas Morning News. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article provides 72 words of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "Kings Courtyard Inn. Guests enter through a simple doorway into an elegant fountain-adorned courtyard. Wine or sherry is served on arrival, brandy and chocolate at bedside, and a continental breakfast the next morning. Another AAA four-diamond winner with three stars from Mobil, this 34-room building was erected in 1853 and restored to maintain its Greek Revival-style with Egyptian overtones. Facilities include a breakfast room, cocktail lounge, two inner courtyards and a whirlpool."

      2. Mayle, Mary Carr (2014-02-09). "King Street Has Much in Common With Broughton\ - Developer Ben Carter Wants to Replicate the Success of Charleston Street in Savannah". Savannah Morning News. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article provides one sentence of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "Charleston native Linn Lesesne and her husband Rick Widman own four hotels and two restaurants in Charleston. Their Kings Courtyard Inn and Fulton Lane Inn, both boutique hotels, as well as Kitchen 208, a casual dining establishment, are on King Street."

      3. Corris, John (1990-03-04). "Carolina stops prove interesting". The Patriot-News. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article provides one sentence of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "Richard T. Widman is the owner-manager of the Rutledge and the nearby Kings Courtyard Inn."

      4. Koppel, Dale (1998-06-07). "At Home in Charleston - A Night or So in a Two-Century-Old Carriage House Snuggled up to a Mansion Can Give You a Real Feel for History". Sun-Sentinel. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article provides 86 words of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "The 41-room Kings Courtyard Inn, built in 1853 in the Greek Revival style (with unusual Egyptian detail), is one of Charleston's most historic inns. This one has a courtyard spa and complimentary brandy at your bedside, next to the chocolates. For those who like an afternoon or evening cocktail, drinks are available in the courtyard bar. Standard rooms range from $135 in low season to $185 in high season. Larger rooms (with jacuzzi jets in the bathtubs) range from $155 to $205, depending on the season."

      5. Donnelly, Frank (1997-11-16). "Web sites boost interest in historic buildings". The Patriot-News. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article provides one sentence of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "As owner of the historic John Rutledge House Inn and Kings Courtyard Inn in Charleston, S.C., Rick Widman knows competition for the vacation dollar is fierce. "

      6. Kujawa, Dawn (1993-01-24). "Valentine's the Perfect Reason to Plan a Romantic Weekend Getaway". The State. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article notes: "Enter the Kings Courtyard Inn through a simple doorway into an elegant, fountain-adorned courtyard. Wine or sherry is served on arrival, brandy and chocolate at bedside, and a continental breakfast the next morning. Some rooms have canopied beds and fireplaces, and many have views of one of the two inner courtyards. From Feb. 10 through Feb. 14, rates begin at $105. From Feb. 15 through March 11, rates begin at $85. Information: 723-7000."

      7. Ronson, Jon (2013-04-19). "US road trip: from New York to Georgia". The Guardian. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article notes: "We stay at a sweet hotel – the Kings Courtyard Inn – where they're doing that southern thing, where all the guests are supposed to meet and chat and drink sherry before dinner. We don't attend because we're introverted and find it overwhelming to meet strangers on holiday."

      8. Starr, William (1988-03-05). "Charleston has 18th-century homes, walled gardens". Montreal Gazette. ProQuest 431604059.

        The article notes: "For instance, the Battery Carriage Inn, Indigo Inn, Church Street Inn, Vendue Inn, Elliott House, Kings Courtyard Inn, Meeting Street Inn, Planter's Inn and Two Meeting Street each offer a convenient location, a few oversize rooms with private baths, luxuriously furnished to the tastes of the most fastidious with lots of extras including breakfast served on a silver tray, a morning newspaper and gracious, informed hosts."

      9. McMillan, Cecily Deegan (1987-03-29). "What's Doing In; Charleston". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article provides 74 words of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "The Kings Courtyard Inn (198 King Street; Charleston, S.C. 29401; 800-845-6119), which has 34 rooms, is probably the most conveniently situated small inn in Charleston, standing as it does in a renovated Greek Revival building in the middle of the King Street shopping district. Free parking is available in the adjacent city lot. The rooms are small, but they encircle two courtyards where there are fountains, benches, tables, flowers and small trees. Rates start at $90 a night."

      10. Munday, Dave (2017-11-19). "Kings Courtyard Inn in downtown Charleston completes guest room overhaul". The Post and Courier. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The article notes: "Kings Courtyard Inn, which operates out of an 1853 building in downtown Charleston, has wrapped up a $500,000 renovation of its 41 guest rooms. ... The Kings Courtyard building is just south of Market Street. Originally, it had shops on the ground floor and rooms upstairs. It was not in good shape when Charming Inns owner Rick Widman leased it in the early 1980s. ... Widman opened the inn in 1983 after renovations that included adding fountains in the two courtyards."

      11. "Kings Courtyard Inn". Frommer's. Archived from the original on 2022-05-23. Retrieved 2022-05-23.

        The review game the inn a one-star rating out of three stars. The review notes, "Just a 3-minute walk from City Market, this historic property started life in 1853 as an inn catering to plantation owners and merchants. Though it’s starting to show some wear and tear, the rooms remain charmingly old-fashioned, most with four-posters or canopied beds, fireplaces, and fine views of the two inner courtyards."

      12. Morekis, Jim (2015). Moon Charleston: Including Hilton Head & the Lowcountry. New York: Avalon Publishing. ISBN 978-1-63121-046-4. Retrieved 2022-05-23 – via Google Books.

        The book notes: "Still, its charming courtyard and awesome location on King Street are big bonuses, as is the convenient but cramped parking lot right next door (about $12 per day, a bargain for this part of town), with free in-and-out privileges."

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Kings Courtyard Inn to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for actually locating these sources instead of just asserting that they exist. I have struck my vote based on the The Post and Courier article and the tourist guides (which I initially dismissed as being more blog-like, but it seems they do have some editorial/selection standards?) eviolite (talk) 18:31, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: No one, me included, has claimed that every building, or every contributing one, in this historic district is worth having a separate article. If one had, the arguments about notability not being inherited would apply. To counter others' assertions, I did/do assert this building is a contributing building. And among contributing buildings in the HD, i assert this one is notable and sources will exist, including because it is a hotel, and hotels get written about. And User:Cunard's analysis supports this (thanks!). We don't have to improve the article to satisfy everyone in order for Keep to be the outcome. It suffices for us to establish well enough that sources, online and offline, will exist. wp:AFDISNOTFORCLEANUP.
That said, even if it is notable, we are not required to have a separate article on it if it can be covered in section or a table row in an appropriate list-article, say. Which would be something like Buildings in the Charleston Historic District, currently a redlink. Corresponding to how Buildings in the Savannah Historic District relates to the similar large HD Savannah Historic District (Savannah, Georgia). I would be happy to start that list-article myself, but cannot do so immediately. If someone else would start it with the mentioned list of 40 or so, plus this one, that would be fine by me. And this AFD could be closed as Merge to that, leaving redirect with article history behind. Or, Merge could be decided or recommended, to be implemented when possible. Until that needed list-article is created, though, this separate article should be kept. In a merge decision, it is okay to leave work to be done before the merge can be accomplished. I would do that work within a few weeks, anyhow. I think/hope this should help. --Doncram (talk) 04:41, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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