Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kiyoshi Shiina

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. !Votes from new and unregistered users have been given lower weight, as is customary here. Stifle (talk) 09:24, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kiyoshi Shiina

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Delete. The references are minimal, not independent of the subject, sometimes a name on a list, while some don't even mention him at all. In order to establish notability, we need significant coverage about the subject that are reflected in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Cind.amuse 20:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I really agree with the nominator but if somebody has some time to add reliable sources we could avoid the deletion of the page. Unfortunately, I do not have enough time to add references about the subject. -- Joaquin008 ^(talk) 21:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- black belt magazine is a notable and independent source. :) CrazyAces489 (talk) 22:16, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yeah I know, but the more reliable sources we have, the better. I also appreciate your efforts in improving the page. :) -- Joaquin008 ^(talk) 13:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Is the Daily News good [1]? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CrazyAces489
      - or Hartford Courant [2] ?? (talk • contribs) 06:04, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        Is St. John's University notable and independent? CrazyAces489 (talk) 20:29, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The coach of the St. John's University Judo Club. Has served as a coach to 2 American Olympian Summer Games representatives (1976 Teimoc Johnston, and 1992 Joe Wanag). A pioneer of the Judo in the United States. Mentioned in black belt magazine multiple times. Similar to that of S. Henry Cho. You should try and google "sensei shiina" and "k. shiina" and you will find more information on him. I am expanding the article as we speak CrazyAces489 (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I do not see any significant coverage about the subject himself from an independent source for the subject to satisfy the notability requirements under WP:BIO. Unfortunately, there are no guidelines under WP:NSPORT that would allow for people to discern if he is a notable athlete within the field of Judo. Barkeep^{Chat | $} 15:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Blackbelt Magazine (a major publication in the world of martial arts) has spoken about him on several occasions.(look at the references). He has trained 2 Olympians and is the current coach of the St. John's University Judo club. CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Actually, there is a set of criteria--WP:MANOTE. I found no evidence that he meets any of the notability criteria listed there. The Black Belt magazine reference just has him in a list of instructors that, apparently, anyone could submit a name to. 131.118.229.17 (talk) 18:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- blackbelt magazine

These are all passing mentions--the BB magazine reference listing him as a martial arts instructor, the next lists him as best man at a wedding, a one sentence mention as a judo traditionalist, one sentence mention as one of his college's champions, mentioned among others as a referee at a tournament, and the final one is a mention as one of the leaders of "the Nihon University Juyukai." All of these are one line mentions, usually in conjunction with a bunch of other names. Where is the "significant coverage" required by WP:GNG? Or please show me which criteria in WP:MANOTE that he meets. 131.118.229.17 (talk) 18:33, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A large number of students: Try to be objective. Remember that there are over 6 billion people in the world. He has had a large number of successful students including 2 olympians. CrazyAces489 (talk) 18:39, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This criteria actually refers to arts and styles, rather than martial artists. Cind.amuse 22:08, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I see enough references and substantial students of quality to keep. A very high ranking martial artist and a university coach. 162.83.194.253 (talk) 21:02, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Like a previous IP poster, I also fail to see what criteria under WP:MANOTE this individual meets. High ranks alone are usually dismissed in these discussions because there's no universal standard for belt ranks. It should also be noted that he's in charge of a club, he's not a university coach like, for example, the school's basketball coach. I haven't found significant coverage in independent references to support the case for notability. Papaursa (talk) 01:39, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In Judo there is a universal standard. Also Daily News [3] and Hartford Courant [4]as references] are independent references. 24.239.153.58 (talk) 05:27, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - So every judo instructor grades exactly the same way and all students of a given rank have the same skills? I don't think so. These are also more 1 line mentions. Where are the articles about him and not his blind student? Did you notice this under the notability criteria for martial artists: "Criteria supporting deletion: 1.Only achievement seems to be that they teach an art"? Papaursa (talk) 06:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - He doesn't just teach the art he coaches national and olympians the same way that Béla Károlyi did for Kerri Strug! The Daily News is more than a one line mention. I wish someone would place in the references on the Article so we can see how many actually exist. Shiina was also a national high school champion and recognized in the collegiate championships.[5] And yes, there is a universal grading scale for Judo. 24.239.153.58 (talk) 07:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - AS a college athlete, he would qualify. "Have won a national award (such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards or the equivalent in another sport), or established a major Division I (NCAA) record. " [6] 24.239.153.58 (talk) 07:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        Béla Károlyi was the the coach of the U.S. national and Olympic teams, not just of an individual on the team. According to the article Shiina was "mid Japan" high school champion which sounds more like a state or regional high school event (and high school events are almost never notable), while having the "best technique" at a meet of 4 universities doesn't exactly sound like a national award like the Heisman trophy. However, I'm now done with this discussion since I won't convince new IP users from New York that are probably connected to his school. Papaursa (talk) 01:39, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep He passes the google test. Has appeared in multiple secondary sources. He has trained multiple high ranking students. Some of his students have strong articles. The article does need to be re-arranged but it can stand on its own 2 feet. 149.68.97.25 (talk) 17:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Made NYT [7] 7 Dec 1980 Japan Judo, a "dojo," or judo school, in Stamford run by Kiyoshi Shiina, who possessed the highest ranked black belt. appears to me to ice the notability issue. Collect (talk) 13:39, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete Notability is still not being shown. Comments to previous 2 posters: There is no google test (see AFD arguments to avoid). The fact that some of his students have articles doesn't matter since notability is not inherited. The latest article mentioned is about Joe Wanag. No one is arguing about whether Wanag is notable or that Shiina runs a dojo, these simply don't show Shiina is notable. Astudent0 (talk) 17:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Um -- the NYT is not Google. And the NYT specifically referred to him as holding the highest ranked black belt - which is what is claimed. In fact, the NYT is considered one of the strongest sources on WP. Lastly, the NYT is WP:RS on Wikipedia. Ergo - the "it is google" is an invalid counter-argument entirely. Thanks. Collect (talk) 22:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Notice that I said the last two posters--the one in front of you said "passes the google test." Also, a high rank is not among the notability criteria for martial artists (see WP:MANOTE). A number of sōkes have been deleted in discussions if they met no other notability criteria. Astudent0 (talk) 16:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Notice also that notability is also affected by coverage by major news publications, over and above the "specialized notability standards." If one is sufficiently notable for the New York Times, a guideline intended to relax notability standards for a specialized area does not remove the notability per the primary policy. The separate notability guidelines are primarily to allow people in who are not notable under the general rules. The specialized guideline can redefine notability otherwise to make it more restrictive. Collect (talk) 19:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - I agree GNG takes precedence, but that requires "significant" coverage and I believe that condition is not met by being mentioned in an article on your student. As I said before, the article is about Wanag (notable) not Shiina (not notable). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Astudent0 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete it has not shown strong sources to show notability. Dwanyewest (talk) 22:47, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - Notability established. Reliable sources that have already been listed..

New York Times
The Daily News
St. John's University Website
Blackbelt Magazine
Hartford Courier
United States Judo Federation 149.68.165.189 (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Only you guys at St. John's think notability has been established. That's why we're having this discussion. Astudent0 (talk) 17:21, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A lot of good verifiable sources have been added, but the editor is not familiar with ref tags, so the reference list doesn't yet display them all. I'm doing some adjustment, but I'd like to see judgment withheld until it can be made more clear what's on the reference list. The outcome may still yet be delete, but I'd like it to be more clear what has been added. Mandsford 00:05, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done. It'll be up to the article's writers if they want to change over from links to citations for the rest of it, such as evidence of well-known students of Shiina. Mandsford 12:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.