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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. – Juliancolton | Talk 00:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of people assassinated by Sri Lankan government forces

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List of people assassinated by Sri Lankan government forces (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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i) The topic of this list is inappropriate and violates WP:SALAT & this list is not compatible with WP:NOT.
ii) Many entries in this list is not compatible with WP:SYNTH and this list contains original research.
iii) WP:POVFORK. All content of this list can be found on other lists in Wikipedia.

The armed forces of a country have the right to defend its territory and it is inevitable to prevent the assassinations of militants during a war or insurrection. Due to this reason it is inappropriate to keep a List of people assassinated by X government forces in WP. All the notable assassinations in this list are already included in two other lists, List of assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War and List of assassinations of the Second JVP Insurrection. Further, there is a special page to cover the attacks on civilians attributed to Sri Lankan forces, which can be used to include any notable assassinations of civilians. Therefore this list is also redundant and only serves the propaganda purposes.

In addition to that many of the entries in the list includes assassinations caused due to sudden provocation of individuals, which cannot be attributed to the entire forces of a country, because those assassinations were not pre-planned and have not provided any military or political advantage to their cause during a war or insurrections. This list also includes original research as it attributes the government forces of Sri Lanka, for the assassination of some highly respected Sri Lankan military officials killed during the Sri Lankan war. --LahiruG talk 07:46, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sri Lanka-related deletion discussions. LahiruG talk 05:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:42, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:42, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 03:42, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The article title is not in any sense neutral. The term "assassination" should not be used for people who are taken into custody and died later. The word describes people killed or fatally injured on the spot. Any such list should include only people who are described in the full range of reliable sources as being assassinated. I looked at one article at random, Rohana Wijeweera. There is no consensus that he was killed by the government, let alone that he was assassinated. There are a variety of contradictory explanations for his death. I have no idea what the truth is in this case, but I am certain that a list stating that he was assassinated is a list that should be deleted. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:42, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of any definition of assassination which states that the death (or fatal injury) must be on the spot. The circumstances of Rohana Wijeweera's killing are very similar to the assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem (a Featured Article). Both were killed by the army whilst in their custody.--obi2canibetalk contr 18:31, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cullen328 and Obi2canibe: Assassination means the deliberate murder of a very prominent, high-profile person. We've come to think of it as killed/fatally injured "on the spot" because it is almost impossible to kidnap high-profile people and the only chance to kill them is with immediate action (gun or bomb etc). Not all the people on this list meet that definition; some were leaders but others appear to be lower-profile priests, journalists, lawyers etc. Certainly it would seem they were targetted but they weren't necessarily highly prominent before they were killed. It's more appropriate to say they were murdered or killed. —МандичкаYO 😜 19:21, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification @Wikimandia. The solution then is to rename the article List of people killed by Sri Lankan government forces as you've suggested below. This should address the concerns raised by @Cullen328 and Dan arndt. If the result of this Afd is keep, please start a page move discussion on the article's talk page. I will support the move.--obi2canibetalk contr 07:47, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikimandia: According to my knowledge, the number of rebels and militants killed by the government forces of Sri Lanka after the deadly JVP insurrections and the civil war is around 50,000. In addition to that many rebels and others were killed by the government forces of Sri Lanka under the British rule during the Great Rebellion of 1817–18, Matale Rebellion and similar conflicts during the colonial rule. The government forces of Sri Lanka also took part in the world wars and killed many enemies during the world wars too. This list contains many names of the enemies/rebels/ militants/ terrorists and therefore it is not practical to keep a list of people killed by country X's government forces in WP as it is the profession and responsibility of the forces of a country, to protect their motherland and its citizens from internal & external attacks during a conflict or war. Therefore it is clear why it is not practical to have this list in WP which violates WP:SALAT. This is pretty much different to having a 'list people killed by law enforcement officers by country X' as law enforcement officers do not engage in wars rather than protecting the civil law and order of a country. Besides that this list is also not compatible with WP:NPOV and WP:SYNTH due to the inclusion of controversial killings and killings attributed the non governmental militant groups such as EPDP, TMVP,ENDLF etc. --LahiruG talk 07:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then I guess you made the case for it to stay under the current title. It should be a list only notable people killed by the government, so assassinated is a correct designation, and this list should only contain notable people who have a Wiki profile (or meet GNG to have one). Or, if there are so many people killed by the government who are not notable, then it should be broken down by date in the way that the List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States is. —МандичкаYO 😜 19:53, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keeping this list with its present title is not a solution for its multiple violations of Wikipedia policies, such as WP:NPOV, WP:SYNTH and WP:SALAT. Most of the people in this list are famous because of their death as they are not very prominent, high-profile people. So according to your definition above, deaths of almost all the people in this list other than the militants of designated terrorist organizations, can not be named as assassinations. Whether it is named as assassinations or as killings, inclusion of controversial killings which are attributed to non governmental organizations such as EPDP, TMVP, ENDLF etc. are a clear violation of NPOV and SYNTH. --LahiruG talk 09:52, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how it violates any policy. Some of the people indeed appear to have been notable before their deaths. We can call it by either name, but I don't see how it qualifies for deletion. I presented the List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States as an example. I would be fine with calling it "List of people killed by Sri Lankan forces" - I really don't see how it would violate WP:NPOV, WP:SYNTH and WP:SALAT. —МандичкаYO 😜 21:26, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am afraid, the example you have presented above is not matching with this case because we are not discussing about the List of people killed by law enforcement officers in Sri Lanka here. If you have given an example like List of people killed by US armed forces or List of people Killed by Japanese armed forces then it could have supported your view. Anyway all those lists fails SALAT as the numbers of people killed by armed forces of a country that have engaged in wars are very high and it is a subject that can not be listed systematically rather than doing it randomly on a non methodical selective basis. Sri Lanka armed forces have engaged in many wars but this list do not includes the killings of the rebellions during the colonial rule or the killings during the world wars they have engaged in. WP:SALAT states that "The potential for creating lists is infinite. The number of possible lists is limited only by our collective imagination. To keep the system of lists useful, we must limit the size and topic of lists." A 'List of People killed by Country X government forces' is a good example for this violation.
Having a list that has many controversial killings which are generally attributed to other parties such as LTTE, TMVP, EPEDP, ENDLF in this list, as committed by the SL gov forces is a clear violation of the neutral point of view of WP.
This list is not compatible with SYNTH, because it attributes the killings of non governmental organisations such as TMVP, EPDP, ENDLF etc. to the SL gov forces due the relationship of those groups to the individual political parties or politicians in Sri Lanka. No RS are provided to support these claims directly. --LahiruG talk 10:52, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The first part of your argument is WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST. As for your argument that this list violates WP:SALAT, the size and scope of the list has been limited to notable assassinations, as the lede states, in accordance with WP:LISTPEOPLE. To suggest that otherwise is like arguing that List of people assassinated by the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam should be deleted because it might end up containing 28,000 soldiers killed in the civil war with the LTTE, or that List of Sinhalese people should be deleted because it might end up containing 15 million Sinhalese people, or that List of Mahinda College alumni should be deleted because it might end up containing every one of the thousands who attended Mahinda College.--obi2canibetalk contr 18:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The Sri Lankan government doesn't have a monopoly on assassinations carried out in the course of this horrible conflict spanning many decades now, but that is no reason not to list them here, since they are well documented and important for readers researching this topic. -Darouet (talk) 09:07, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment An assassination is the deliberate killing of a prominent person, usually for payment or political reasons. One of the fundamental problems with this list is that there is not always clear evidence that the military or security services commanded the murder(s) to be carried out. An example is the death of Nihal Silva, which the article states "Silva was shot to death by Sri Lanka Army soldiers as he ignored warnings and ran a checkpoint on December 3, 1989 in Dehiwela; he possibly did not understand the situation due to inebriation." - this hardly falls under the definition of an assassination. Then there is Denzil Kobbekaduwa, Vijaya Wimalaratne and Mohan Jayamaha, all senior military personnel who according to the list were killed by the army by a land mine. The evidence that this is the case is inconclusive - the single uncollaborated reference attributes the deaths to the Minister of Defence not the army however that appears to be speculation rather than factual based. The list also notes "other sources blame Jayamaha, Kobbekaduwa and Wimalaratne's assassinations on the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam.". I agree with the nominator that this list contains what are purported to be assassinations however as they were clearly not not pre-planned and did not provided any military or political advantage to their cause then you'd have to seriously question whether they were actually murders rather than assassinations. Dan arndt (talk) 09:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete this is not a list of 'assassinations', if it was renamed List of people murdered by Sri Lankan government forces I would be prepared to reconsider my position but as it stands the list is inaccurate. Dan arndt (talk) 23:58, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Dan arndt: Please read WP:ATD-T: "Pages with incorrect names can simply be renamed via page movement procedure. Naming disputes are discussed on the articles' talk pages or listed at requested moves".--obi2canibetalk contr 06:35, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Obi2canibe, I am familar with with WP:PD and I think my comments are fairly clear in that it should be renamed to more accurately reflect the contents of the list. If not then the list should be deleted because it clearly infringes WP:NPOV - through the use of the term 'assassination' when a significant number of articles on the list are clearly murders. Dan arndt (talk) 07:53, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Continuing this discussion on the definition, my first thought was "intent" especially when looking at those killed by landmines. The government may have placed those mines there but, Jayamaha Kobbekaduwa and Wimalaratne were definitely not the government's intention, and I think that extends to the LTTE victims of the claymore mines too, the government did not actively seek to assassinate them through mines. I think both groups should be removed from the list, not to mention it is bizarre to see the army leadership killed by its own organisation. (Not to say that does not ever happen) Unless there is a verified consensus that the mine was the for someone specifically it should be removed.
Having said that, there are two sides to a war and both commit similar acts, in this case assassinations, and I think there is some validity in the topic this article is trying to portray, but I don't think it has reached a point of neutrality that satisfies all issues. The "X has/hasn't this article, therefore Y should have/not have a similar article" is an issue that has come up many times over these few debates, and this one too, I think what is best for this topic would be a Merge with List of people assassinated by the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, into List of assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War where both sides of the conflict are subject to the same definition of "assassination" and no argument can be raised against its existence. Ultimately the people assassinated are the victims, it does not matter which side there were on after they died, they all died in the same war.--Blackknight12 (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 04:35, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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