Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Hell Frog Warrior

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 09:57, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Max Hell Frog Warrior

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A 13-year-old article with no sources and no indication of notability. A search of Google, Google News and Google Books returns no reliable sources beyond extremely brief mentions that the film exists. None support a claim of notability. Railfan23 (talk) 05:13, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Railfan23 (talk) 05:13, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 05:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 05:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Checked official website. There are books listed with writings related to this film. Total Cults: How to Love Movies You Probably Shouldn't, Spinegrinder: The Movies Most Critics Won't Write About, So Bad, It's Good: More Than 50 Great Films for Your Bad Movie Night, La fantascienza cinematografica, la seconda età dell'oro (Italian Edition), Science Fiction, Horror and Fantasy Film and Television Credits, Vol. 2: Filmography, Mr. Skin's Skincyclopedia: The A-to-Z Guide to Finding Your Favorite Actresses Naked. Confirmed these books on google books and amazon. That should equal WP notability. Chinanski (talk) 23:52, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Luckily, these books are on Google Books. Total Cults does not mention this film. It does mention it's sequel saying: "And in 1996, Z'Dar handed over the Hell crown to Scott Shaw, who appeared as Max Hell in Frogtown III: Toad Warrior, prompting a reviewer on IMDB to comment 'Please, Please, Please, if Donald G. Jackson is reading this, for the love of God stop making films about frogs'". Hardly the significant coverage required by WP:GNG, even if it was about this film. Which it isn't. Spingrinder is also about the sequel not this film. Similarly Mr. Skin's Skinopedia (!) is the most passing of mentions of the two sequels, not this film. La Fantasienza cinematografica is also about one of the sequels, though it does mention that this film exists. Finally, the Science Fiction, Horror and Fantasy Film and Television Credits book does say that Scott Shaw plays Max Hell but, again, it is in Toad Warrior, not this film. So I disagree that any of these show notability for this film. Railfan23 (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Railfan23, If you read the information about this film on its WP page or on the official website you will see that Toad Warrior is not a sequel it is a different version of the same film re-titled and using the same footage. From my reading they are the same film with a different name. Maybe the title of this page could be changed using both names. The publications still apply as this article references both versions. I checked back on the official website and it appears this movie was also written about in magazines proving notability of the film. You mentioned google search. I put in the title and went through 11 pages of solid title information. I didn't go through each of them to see if some or any of those would equal notability but the film is very well known with several online reviews for both titles. Thanks Chinanski (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, let's assume they're all the same film - though note that several of the source you provided explicitly say it is not. None of these source are anywhere close to the substantial coverage required for them to demonstrate notability. They simply prove the movie exists, which isn't in doubt. Railfan23 (talk) 15:45, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Railfan23, Checked into this a little bit farther regarding your information here and on the other Scott Shaw films you targeted, The book [1] does go into a detailed discussion about the film Max Hell Frog Warrior. That may answer your question of notability. Thanks. Chinanski (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, can you give us some details of the discussion in the book, preferably with quotes. This should also be added to the article. Railfan23 (talk) 20:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Railfan23, Checked into this a bit further and this movie as Toad Warrior is also written about in the book [2] as is one of the other movies you put up for deletion. This article needs some work but I don't believe it should be deleted. Thanks Chinanski (talk) 13:57, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give us some sense of what the book says about Toad Warrior? You have copies of both "Showgirls, Teen Wolves and Astro Zombies", and "So Bad, It's Good". Can you show us (some of) the substantial coverage they contain? Also, please add these sources to the article, which has been unsourced for 13 years in clear violation of WP:V. Thanks, Railfan23 (talk) 15:45, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't actually have the books I just did the look inside thing on amazon after seeing them mentioned on the official website. Showgirls has 3 paragraphs on the movie on page 266. So Bad has a mentions of it as one of the two best known examples of the movies of Jackson and Shaw on pages 139-141. I can add them to this article but I don't want to bother if its just going to be deleted. Maybe you want to do it. Hope this helps the discussion. Thanks Chinanski (talk) 22:25, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the "three paragraphs" from Showgirls: "Jackson and Shaw codirected 1996's Toad Warrior, which taps one of their other obsessions: amphibian ninjas. We're in an alternate universe set during the Third Toad Resistance, in which Joe Estevez is the president, who lives in a tent with dirt-covered babes. Shaw fights ninjas in a car park. Old Ed Wood player Conrad Brooks wears a beekeeper's getup and sleeps while a purple alligator talks to him." And here's the "detailed discussion" of Frog Warrior in So Bad, It's Good: "Max Hell Frog Warrior follows Max Hell (Scott Shaw) who needs to rescue kidnapped Dr. Trixi T (Elizabeth Mehr) from the villainous Mickey O'Malley (Joe Estevez)". I'll leave it to whoever closes this to decide if that is the significant coverage that shows notability. Railfan23 (talk) 00:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hugsyrup (talk) 12:05, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per the above discussion. If the final comment above is the extent of the reliable sources that can be shown, there's not enough for a non-substub article that meets WP:V. Would be willing to reconsider if sources with more extensive coverage are brought to light. --Goobergunch|? 04:48, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP Added a few references found on google search and google books. This may or may not help the decision. Thanks, Chinanski (talk) 14:32, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong | soliloquize _ 01:51, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per above. TheEditster (talk) 06:39, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.