Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mohammad Hashem Cheshti

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mohammad Hashem Cheshti

I declined the speedy deletion request, so I'm bringing it here for further evaluation. I remain neutral. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 01:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

keep. The article is a stub and needs improvement. No doubt. But sources for Afghanistan on the net are hard to find, for obvious reasons. Also, if you look at the huge number of Afghanian Internet articles which quote or copyvio this article, it should be obvious that Afghanis consider him important (but that is not argument that would wash with policy, I accept that... :-) - Anyway, I will try and improve some of it now. The man is famous among Afghanis. He is the teacher of Ustad Mahwash who is probably a lot better known in the West. Refdoc (talk) 10:55, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have now added references for practically all claims of the article. It remains a stub, but I think a better researched one. Refdoc (talk) 12:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep Weak delete I don't think the sources can be considered reliable. Two youtube links shows appearances on Radio Television Afghanistan, but appearing on tv by itself doesn't make someone necessarily notable (see criterion 10 of WP:MUSICBIO). He might well be a famous musician, but with the given citations it's difficult to verify. I see problems with WP:MUSICBIO and WP:BIO. Hekerui (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would think, he verifiably fulfills criteria 3 and 5 of composers/teachers WP:MUSICBIO in relation to Mahwash and other members of Radio Kabul, also Ahmad Zahir and criterion 2 of "others" WP:MUSICBIO Refdoc (talk) 14:15, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of strength of references, I would think that this is the best possible for a Afghan artist who died a decade prior to the advent of the internet in Afghanistan.Refdoc (talk) 14:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He is probably notable. Hekerui (talk) 00:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. "Afghanistan's greatest tabla player from the 1960s on", according to this reliable source Phil Bridger (talk) 00:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The book says "Ustad Hashem". How do we know it's the same person? I can't see it in the book context. Hekerui (talk) 01:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ustad is a title--see the lead of [[1]], and as i read it, it fits exactly. DGG (talk) 04:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first of the references in the article gives both his full name and the title Ustad Hashem. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't. Not on page 162 and a search reveals no "Cheshti" in the whole book. Hekerui (talk) 09:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I said the first of the references in the article, not the book. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It could well be true, but I can name two Ustad Sabris from the top of my head, too :) Hekerui (talk) 10:09, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No one regularly uses "Cheshti", the surname is here for completeness sake. Ustad Hashem is how he was called regularly. If there is another Afghani Ustad from that part of Kabul of significance going by that name I have not encountered him nor a reference. Refdoc (talk) 15:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep In this case, the lack of reliable online sources is sort of an example of FUTON bias and not a fair assessment of the subject notability. --J^mundo 03:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And you know that how? Hekerui (talk) 09:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Sourcing is difficult, but we have clear notability as a famous Afghani musician. Some reliable sources have been found, and I've found reference to him in three more: "Mahwash received thorough training from the Afghan singing master (Ustad) and composer Mohammad Hashem. Ustad Hashem taught her the classical Indian raga singing techniques and programs (traditional Indian melodies), and composed for her" (translation from Dutch)[2]; "[Zuleika] has also studied under Ustad Hashim Chisti, who introduced her to dance and music of Afghanistan."[3]; "My father was taught to play the tabla (Afghan drums) by the great Afghan musician Hashim"[4]. Naming is a problem for us Westerners, as traditional names and honorifics in some cultures get added on or removed seemingly at random and spelling can go all over the place, but Ustad Hashem/Hashim and Mohammed Hashem Cheshti/Chisti are definitely the same person. There are bound to be dead tree references, but finding them would be hellish. Fences and windows (talk) 21:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some good detail is in an article in the Guardian, here's a snippet: "Mahwash's rise to fame owed much to another famous Kabuli musician, Mohammad Hashem, whose ancestors came from India and were brought to Kabul in the 1860s as court musicians by the then ruler, Sher Ali Khan. Hashem was recognised as an ustad , a "master musician", for his artistry in playing the tabla drums. He was also a multi-instrumentalist, singing and playing various stringed instruments..."[5]. Fences and windows (talk) 21:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All references added. Thanks. Refdoc (talk) 19:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Afghanistan-related deletion discussions. —Fences and windows (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. —Fences and windows (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.