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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. This was closed as borderline no consensus as many of the keep !votes simply pointed to a policy which merely assumes notability but does not directly infer it upon the subject. WP:SIGCOV is required and while this was not a clearcut case of GNG, there did appear to be enough material in the improved version for a claim against it. Mkdwtalk 23:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nazario Fiakaifonu

[edit]
Nazario Fiakaifonu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Delete: as insufficiently accomplished and thus non-notable athlete. Quis separabit? 14:50, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @SwisterTwister -- any opinions?? It's lonely here! Quis separabit? 05:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 06:00, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. SwisterTwister talk 06:00, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article has been improved enough to make me cross out my redirect option. I think keeping the article is the best choice since it provides the easier option of adding sources (there must be more out there). I do think NewYorkActuary makes a good point about WP:NOPAGE. I also found it interesting that he was ranked 138th in 2012, but got into the Olympics because Oceania was allocated two spots in his division. Papaursa (talk) 05:11, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 13:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • asserted by The Irish Independent to have a genuine medal hope (though with no support for that assertion and no additional detail about him)
  • quoted extensively (several sentences), partly as one of [the Vanautu] athletes who [may have] travelled farthest to get to London (1,731 miles? [1,731 miles further than 8,362 mile (13,457 kilometer) trip of a Marshall Islander to London, if the Vanauatu trip went to the Marshall Islands first] ), and about Vanautu, and about his medal chances (which he discounted) within this Bloomberg news article (amended by [bracketed info] --doncram 18:40, 13 November 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • quoted about about training in Vanautu (i wonder what equipment matters in judo training?)
Also Youtube search has films with him, including
  • "Vanautu Pride" interview in London (from ~0:50 to end at 2:32) , he speaks of his hopes for judo & other sports training for youth in Vanautu, and their facilities (around 1:40), and wanting to give back to his country].
  • performing 50 speed presses (oh, so maybe the equipment is about weight-lifting and the like)
Many non-controversial details provided in the above can be used in article. It is convenient that he is English-speaking.
Also, contrary to a claim above, there is no more information about him at Judo at the 2012 Summer Olympics – Men's +100 kg, and any personal details at all would not be appropriate for that article.
Also, among several Wikipedia articles linking to him, no one is an obvious redirect target. Better not to repeat personal details in each of them; keep as one article linked from Vanuatu at the 2012 Summer Olympics, Judo at the 2012 Summer Olympics – Qualification, 2011 World Judo Championships – Men's +100 kg, Judo at the 2012 Summer Olympics – Men's +100 kg, 2012 Summer Olympics closing ceremony flag bearers, and one or two more.
From those link's sources, additional details can be mentioned: His serving as flag-bearer, and 2011 World performance
He is very friendly, too.  :)
--doncram 17:04, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:NOLYMPICS. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 21:53, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Olympic athletes are always considered notable.Mdtemp (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. User:doncram, thank you for finding and providing the extra citations. But the written citations give us nothing encyclopedic. It is the rare Olympic athlete who hasn't travelled a great distance to the competition, and all of them engage in training and discuss their prospects with the press. None of this has encyclopedic value. Perhaps others will disagree, but I don't think one can evade WP:NOPAGE simply by padding an article with these unencyclopedic details. However, I do agree that the redirect target proposed by Papaursa isn't much better than the one proposed by Schmidt. The better redirect target is one of the ones mentioned by you -- Vanuatu at the 2012 Summer Olympics#Judo. As for not being able to place personal details in the redirect target, why do we need to provide personal details? Consider the article on the guy who defeated Fiakaifonu, Marius Paškevičius. This article has virtually no personal details. And yet no one here would consider deleting it, because it identifies several top-level medals that he has won over the years. And that's what's missing here. Fiakaifonu's entry at InsideJudo.com shows that he only competed in three matches in his career, losing all three of them. His appearance at the 2012 Olympics was truly the only thing that rises to our notion of notability, and it isn't enough to get around WP:NOPAGE. NewYorkActuary (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
  • I see your wp:NOPAGE point, and agree several facts I mention are not very "encyclopedic", although facts like them routinely appear in BIOs about models and actors. But height, weight, birthdate and mention that his sister is also competing (added by another editor) are examples of acceptable, "encyclopedic" personal details that have now been added, and they are appropriate only for an individual article.
  • The Vanuatu at the 2012 Summer Olympics#Judo article cannot receive any personal details, as it does not now and is consistent with (presumably all) others like Canada at the 2012 Summer Olympics. So again, because he is appropriately mentioned in several Wikipedia articles, there is no place for personal details except at an individual page.
  • wp:NOLYMPICS says there can be an article, though it is not required; wp:NOPAGE suggests considering coverage in a list-article or elsewhere, which we have done. All modern Olympians are mentioned in two or more Wikipedia articles (their sport & their nation). IMO, the general rule for bios of Olympic athletes should be something like: An editor may create a separate article if there exists any Wikipedia-covered other-competition information about the athlete OR if there are any "encyclopedic" personal details which can be mentioned, that an editor wants to add. If there is not any info beyond the bare facts of Olympic participation, I would prefer their mentions be left as redlinks or be de-linked. The pre-AFD article included birth-date and birth-location, so barely met this standard.
  • Another kind of personal detail is news of their participation in judo competitions subsequent to 2012 Olympic games. I just mentioned two 2015 competitions in the Marius Paškevičius article, including that he won a round in Abu Dhabi by ippon (which I hope and believe I handled correctly, using Dutch and French sources). And in Fiakaifonu's article, I added mention of his competing in 2014. It is relevant and useful in an article about these athletes to indicate that they are still competing at later dates. (For one thing, IMO, this may indirectly suggest they are hanging in to compete in the 2016 Olympics, for readers interested in speculating.) --doncram 18:40, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:doncram Thanks for the response. Although we are advocating different positions, we're not all that far apart -- neither one of us is proposing an outright deletion. I acknowledge that Olympic participation earns an athlete an entry on Wikipedia. Our debate is only over whether that entry should be a stand-alone article or a redirect. It might be helpful to consider the opinions of the good folks over at the Martial Arts project. Their project page has a section on the notability of martial artists, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_arts/Notability#Martial_artists, the first paragraph of which echoes the provisions of WP:NOPAGE -- it explicitly recognizes that some martial artists might be notable, but still not merit a stand-alone article. The question then becomes whether statistics such as date of birth and weight are, in themselves, sufficient to meet their standards for stand-alone articles. I don't think they do, but perhaps you feel differently.
As for your proposed standards, they are far too broad. What Olympic athlete doesn't have personal details such as date of birth and weight? And with only rare exception, all of them have competed at some other point in their careers. Your standards would grant stand-alone articles to every Olympic athlete and would effectively render moot WP:NOPAGE, as well as the specific standards expressed by the Martial Arts project.
A few comments about sources. First, I garbled the name of the judo web site (and I regret any inconvenience that error might have caused). Fiakaifonu's data can be found at http://judoinside.com/judoka/79877/Nazario_Fiakaifonu/judo-matches. Second, I assume that you have the subject article on your watchlist, and are already aware that I deleted the statement that Nazario's sister competed at the Glasgow games. The source specifically says that she didn't participate. But of far more substance is that same source's statement that Nazario intended to participate in those games. Perhaps so, but the JudoInside site doesn't corroborate this. You can see a list of more than 200 head-to-head matches (at those games) at JudoInside.com (once at the site, search for "Commonwealth Games Glasgow"). Fiakaifonu doesn't appear on that list. Perhaps he failed to qualify; perhaps he didn't compete for some other reason. But either way, he didn't compete. Later today, I'll amble back to the subject article and place a 'dubious' tag on that statement (with a fuller discussion on its talk page). But for now, I simply note that we still don't have anything substantive about the subject other than his participation in the 2012 Olympics. A redirect is still the appropriate treatment of this article. NewYorkActuary (talk) 20:59, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NewYorkActuary, I also appreciate the discussion and feel that we are not very far apart, though we land on opposite sides of a line. We're willing to discuss this minor article at length because this is somehow an important test case, I sense.
  • You advocate a redirect, but a redirect to what? To a mere mention of his name in one of the other Wikipedia articles? That is no help to readers. To a passage about him in any of the other Wikipedia articles? No passage would be allowed. Honestly I think the only solution is a short article. This reminds me of a past AFD about an architect for which not very much was known, but who(whom?) had designed multiple historic notable buildings, which had or could have articles that naturally should mention him. The only reasonable resolution was to keep the architect article to hold the minimal bio-type details about him, as well as to provide navigation amongst the articles where he was mentioned.
  • Your finding "Notability#Martial_artists" is very relevant, but a) it is one wikiproject's guideline that does not govern (per wp:LocalConsensus?) and b) it does not envision or address the situation of a person being linked from multiple Wikipedia articles. If, as that assumes implicitly, the situation is that a person is mentioned in just one article (perhaps a list-article) and can be covered there. You and I will agree it is then not necessary (and probably not desirable) to split out the info to a separate article, when the info is minimal. That's not the situation here.
  • One very important category of personal details we and the Wikiproject have not mentioned is photos and videos and links thereto. Many Wikipedia editors, including me, believe that having articles on persons and places encourages the public to take pictures and contribute them, and/or to provide useful external links. I find no photos of him at Commons, but I have added external links to Fiakaifonu's Youtube videos. These links to images/films are actually quite substantial in providing the reader with significant information about the subject.
  • I also added bits about his preliminary matches, which all Olympic athletes also have, like height and weight. What's different for his article vs. the Olympians not having articles includes: such info is available about him in reliable sources, and an editor has chosen to create the article.
  • Thank you for corrected link to his JudoInside information. Yes, his 0-3 record in matches covered by JudoInside is not great, but he did get to those multiple competitions and must not have been laughed off the mat. I wonder if he could be notable for going to the Olympics while never having won a match, anywhere, perhaps? That would be very unusual and perhaps aggravating to jealous others.
  • JudoInside's tabulation of Glasgow 2014 results which I found, by the way, does not name him. But it only names the top eight competitors in every division, and I don't believe there were 8 and only 8 competitors in each one. For the World Cup in Apia, Samoa in November 2012, his name also does not appear, while I really believe he was there: regarding which there is coverage of his travel thereto (I think, but I am not positive that the World Cup event in Samoa that he was going to is the same one, as there is no date in the article and I don't trust an "last edited in 20XX" stray note).
  • Note the JudoInside page gives him an 8 out of 10 for "Popularity"...there must be a story to be told, right? :)
Seriously I think having a very brief article is the proper resolution. --doncram 02:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have both stated our positions rather clearly. I also think that neither one of us wants to set an Olympic record for the longest AfD discussion, so I'll address your points without too much repetition of my previous postings. Before I do that, I note that the problem you ran into at the JudoInside site was in not clicking on the "Head to Head" tabs. Those tabs contain the complete listings of matches, which is far more extensive than the brief list of names under the "Results" tab. I've already corrected the subject article for this.
You argue quite eloquently for a guideline that would (in effect) permit stand-alone articles for just about every Olympic competitor. But the good folks at the Olympics project have never suggested such a result. Indeed, I get the impression that they pretty much defer to the Sports project when it comes to the notability of individuals. And the folks at the Martial Arts project have an explicit guideline against such a result. That guideline says that notable martial artists don't always get a stand-alone article, and it makes no exceptions for Olympic competitors. Perhaps you could get them to change that guideline. And if you succeeded in doing that, I would not feel any sense of moral outrage. Indeed, I would applaud the effort that it took you to achieve that result. But as things stand right now, the folks at the Martial Arts project are telling us (in effect) that merely appearing in the Olympics does not guarantee a place to host a photograph of the athlete, nor a place to host personal details about the athlete, nor a place to host video links. And here at this AfD debate, we should be basing our positions on the guidelines that currently exist. The nominator started this discussion by describing the subject as "insufficiently accomplished". Appearing in only three world-class matches, and being eliminated in the first round of all three of them? I think the nominator got it right.
Despite our different positions, I do acknowledge that the article now looks better than it did a week ago. As for whether that's enough to get past WP:NOPAGE, I guess we'll find out soon enough. NewYorkActuary (talk) 21:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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