Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Notre Dame, Indiana

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. In addition to the breadth of the support for keep, I call specific attention to TheCatalyst31's reply below. It is my observation that there is ample precedent (but no formal policy I'm aware of) for presuming the notability of well-verified, populated geographic places, even when there is a lack of secondary sourcing. --joe decker ^{talk to me} 21:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Notre Dame, Indiana

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There is no evidence provided that this place exists as described, that is as a community. There is a University of Notre Dame, of course, and a post office on campus also called "Notre Dame." Other than that there does not seem to be any published evidence for a Notre Dame community extending beyond the University campus. BigJim707 (talk) 00:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

~~I suggest redirecting to University of Notre Dame. Or alternately, being clear that the article is about a postal service area and nothing more.~~ older ≠ wiser 00:31, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Considering comment from TheCatalyst31 that it is a census-designated place for the 2010 census, there seems enough evidence that the place is real enough. older ≠ wiser 17:12, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Indiana-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 00:51, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The nominator is incorrect that the community has no notablity other than in connection with Notre Dame University. The websites of St. Mary's College and Holy Cross College give their locations as "Notre Dame, IN". One incorporates the community name in its logo. The community has a post office and a ZIP code. This unincorporated community is notable and encompasses more than the famous university. Cullen328 (talk) 01:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But are there any secondary sources that give information on the community? BigJim707 (talk) 04:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is that populated communities are notable. Three universities, not one, list this as their home town. As does the Ara Parsegian Foundation. As does Holy Names Foundation, which operates worldwide.

The question is whether there are any reliable sources showing that it is anything other than a postal service area. A post office is not the same as a community. While there are many communities that are identified by their post office (and the closure of a post office is seen as a very big blow to such communities), there are also post offices that are little more that offices that administer postal services. older ≠ wiser 04:57, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt that every post office which ever existed is entitled to "inherent notability" by present Wikipedia consensus. Many official post offices in the US were just small general stores otherwise of insufficient notability.Edison (talk) 15:12, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, if it has its own ZIP code its not just a university. BigJim707's argument makes sense. --Soman (talk) 15:13, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article now starts out: "Notre Dame, Indiana is an unincorporated community [citation needed]..." I removed the "citation needed" tag since I thought that referred to it being unincorporated. This is easy to establish by looking at a list of incorporated towns and cities in Indiana and seeing that Notre Dame is not among them. The tag was put back and it turns out that the fact of its being a community is what is uncited. If the very core of an article, the existence of its subject, needs a citation then it seems to me that AfD is the proper way to go, not a citation needed tag. BigJim707 (talk) 18:06, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notre Dame was listed as a census-designated place in the 2010 census. If the U.S. Census Bureau considers it to be a place, it's a verifiable community of some sort and deserves an article. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 03:42, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't see any coverage by secondary sources. BigJim707 (talk) 15:12, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is that if a community is verifiable it is notable, even if it is verifiable through sources such as census data and government databases. This especially applies to census-designated places, as all places in the 2000 census have had articles for years after a consensus to create them en masse; Notre Dame is only newer because it wasn't made a CDP until 2010. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 22:02, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I found a citation from GNIS which mentions Norte Dame, Indiana is a census-designated place. Thank you-RFD (talk) 21:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to be a primary source. BigJim707 (talk) 17:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.