Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yaakov Neuburger
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. W.marsh 18:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yaakov Neuburger (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
Nn teacher. See originator's talk page for the unusual usage of "Rosh Yeshiva" used at YU. Dweller 16:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Not enough reliable, third party sources to establish notability, though I may go back to the one advertising "Click here for sexy videos of Rav Yaakov Neuburger ".--Sethacus 04:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletions. —David Eppstein 15:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- comment I agree that it take a little bit more than being a rosh yeshiva at YU to be notable, but not that much more. The author claims he is adding more, and I don't think we should jump on him. Give it some time. Jon513 12:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no undue haste here. It's been six days since the author edited the article. --Dweller 13:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep because first of all this article is a stub and needs time, as the creator Diament (talk · contribs) himself requested on his talk page [1]. Secondly, to nominate an article based on one's POV is not the way to go. In this case User Dweller (talk · contribs) was offensive, condescending and dismissive of the article's creator, see discussion at User talk:Diament#Yeshiva University: "According to our article, there is no Rosh Yeshiva and if there is, it's Rabbi Lamm. ??? ...That's potty. Doing that completely destroys all meaning of the term "Rosh Yeshiva"." Thirdly, the article is part of a series and it's placed in template {{YU Roshei Yeshiva}} so to yank it would be to make holes in the attempt to document a coherent set of important inter-related finite biographies. Fourthly, if anyone feels that Yeshiva University has "too many rosh yeshivas" and doesn't like that, then there is an easy solution to that by simply placing them into Category:Yeshiva University rosh yeshivas where they belong, rather than hurling abuse at the creator of the article violating WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE and running to delete the first writings of a biography about an important rabbi. Finally, this article needs to be given the time it deserves to develop, such as by requesting more information and input from editors at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and should not have been subjected to this abusive form of nomination. Thank you, IZAK 13:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 13:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Erm, just to explain the context and correct several incorrect assertions, I actually removed this article from speedy deletion candidates on the basis that it was about a Rosh Yeshiva. When I realised that the term was debased, I listed it for deletion debate.
- Now, this article's up for deletion because I have concerns about the subject's notability, not because I am worried about YU's use of terminology. Nor is inclusion in a template (he wasn't... he is) grounds for keeping an article. If he's notable, and the subject of RS, great, we'll keep the article. I'll happily speedy close this AfD as "keep" myself if you add some RS and drop me a line.
- Finally, if you have any complaints about someone's behaviour, the proper course of action is to raise them at the user's talk page, where they're guaranteed to see them, rather than at an XfD, where it is part of a user's watchlist that may be thousands of pages long. There's no abuse from me here... and I'd like to think I'm one of the least bitey admins around. --Dweller 13:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, but I stand by my assertions. And I note your comments above that you feel about Yeshiva University's Rosh Yeshiva's that "the term was debased" (you are repeating a POV judgment and canard on your part. How on Earth can you judge? Unless you are prejudiced against YU.) I am not the one writing the article, user Diament (talk · contribs) is and he has requested more time, so let's see he how he goes about it, but even so, there is no reason for him to be working under the gun as it were. Indeed if the article is about a faculty member of a major university/yeshiva that can be traced through his writings and accomplishments then there is no time limit here, so do not make this up please. The point about the subject being on a template is that there are really very few Yeshiva University Rosh Yeshivas and in fact there are far more Haredi and Hasidic rabbis who use the term. You seem to be missing perspective. Modern Orthodoxy in the USA only has YU as its college-level school/yeshiva so therefore all the Rosh Yeshivas are in one institution, whereas the Haredim and Hasidim have hundreds of large and small yeshivas and each one is headed by rabbis who title themselves "rosh yeshiva/s" and they may not be of any great stature themselves. Thus having a position that is called Rosh Yeshiva at the flagship (and only) institution of higher learning affiliated with Modern Orthodox Judaism in America is already a basis for notability. Finally, I re-read your comments, and I just cannot see how describing the hard work of an editor as "potty" to be anything but hurtful. That's my take on the situation. Thanks, IZAK 14:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It's YU that I was describing as potty. If that was unclear, I certainly regret it. I'll drop Diament a line. (And, btw, I think a week is plenty of time.) --Dweller 18:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Dweller: I will ask you now for the third time, please stop the name calling during this discussion. It's not about if you or anyone thinks that anyone or a place is "potty" and you have now obviously revealed that you dislike YU, which makes your moves here tainted by POV and a violation of WP:NPOV, so stop it. RIETS which is the main "yeshiva" part of YU is the oldest yeshiva in America, and for a very long time it was the only yeshiva in the USA, it deserves a little respect. YU is also a fully accredited university that is always ranked in the top 100 universities by the authoritative annual survey in US News and World Report. Only a relative handful of rabbis have held or hold the position of Rosh Yeshiva at YU, so anyone who has such a position, at this yeshiva which is also a major US university is perforce notable, and it can all be cited and sourced. Thank you, IZAK 13:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sigh. My comment about "potty" was made on someone's talk page. It's you that's chosen to bring it here and (endlessly, it would seem) bang on about it. My attitude to YU is not known to you and is irrelevant to this discussion, particularly as we are not discussing the institution, but the notability of one of its staff. --21:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dweller (talk • contribs)
- Dweller: I will ask you now for the third time, please stop the name calling during this discussion. It's not about if you or anyone thinks that anyone or a place is "potty" and you have now obviously revealed that you dislike YU, which makes your moves here tainted by POV and a violation of WP:NPOV, so stop it. RIETS which is the main "yeshiva" part of YU is the oldest yeshiva in America, and for a very long time it was the only yeshiva in the USA, it deserves a little respect. YU is also a fully accredited university that is always ranked in the top 100 universities by the authoritative annual survey in US News and World Report. Only a relative handful of rabbis have held or hold the position of Rosh Yeshiva at YU, so anyone who has such a position, at this yeshiva which is also a major US university is perforce notable, and it can all be cited and sourced. Thank you, IZAK 13:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It's YU that I was describing as potty. If that was unclear, I certainly regret it. I'll drop Diament a line. (And, btw, I think a week is plenty of time.) --Dweller 18:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, but I stand by my assertions. And I note your comments above that you feel about Yeshiva University's Rosh Yeshiva's that "the term was debased" (you are repeating a POV judgment and canard on your part. How on Earth can you judge? Unless you are prejudiced against YU.) I am not the one writing the article, user Diament (talk · contribs) is and he has requested more time, so let's see he how he goes about it, but even so, there is no reason for him to be working under the gun as it were. Indeed if the article is about a faculty member of a major university/yeshiva that can be traced through his writings and accomplishments then there is no time limit here, so do not make this up please. The point about the subject being on a template is that there are really very few Yeshiva University Rosh Yeshivas and in fact there are far more Haredi and Hasidic rabbis who use the term. You seem to be missing perspective. Modern Orthodoxy in the USA only has YU as its college-level school/yeshiva so therefore all the Rosh Yeshivas are in one institution, whereas the Haredim and Hasidim have hundreds of large and small yeshivas and each one is headed by rabbis who title themselves "rosh yeshiva/s" and they may not be of any great stature themselves. Thus having a position that is called Rosh Yeshiva at the flagship (and only) institution of higher learning affiliated with Modern Orthodox Judaism in America is already a basis for notability. Finally, I re-read your comments, and I just cannot see how describing the hard work of an editor as "potty" to be anything but hurtful. That's my take on the situation. Thanks, IZAK 14:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- comment Dweller makes a valid point about the title of Rosh Yeshiva in YU. In most yeshivas there is one Rosh Yeshiva - usually a very distinguished position. In YU there are many Roshei Yeshiva. So much so that the title of Rosh Yeshiva is YU is the same as the title of Ram in many other institutions. Nevertheless YU is a major center of Torah learning in the united states and most the Roshei Yeshiva are notable on their own merits. There are a few borderline cases. IZAK makes a good point, if we exclude the few borderline cases we will leave holes in a template. Kinda like having an article for every episode of a TV series and leaving out one that is "not notable". Jon513 12:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and expand. Being a rosh yeshiba amongst other at a very central institution isn't any less notable than being the only rosh yeshiba at a small institution. The article should be expanded as soon as possible with publications, publically known opinions, etc. -- Olve 12:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and add outside independent references.--יודל 13:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep as per Izak. Yossiea (talk) 13:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Expand as soon as possisble. There is not enough information to prove his notability but, given his position, some credit (and time) must be given. --JewBask 13:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Per IZAK's description of RIETS, its status as a notable yeshiva, and its Roshei Yeshiva Avi 14:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment As IZAK notes Yeshivah University's RIETS is one of North America's most notable rabbinical schools and considered the flagship theological institution of Modern Orthodox Judaism, and the position involved is somewhat analogous to head of a department at a flagship University. Thus there is possible/probable notability, although references still need to be supplied. Best, --Shirahadasha 15:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Expand. At the moment the article hardly asserts notability, and contains insufficient information for the WP:PROF. JFW | T@lk 16:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and expand.Dovi 19:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- NB According to YU's website, they have 33 Roshei Yeshiva currently. --Dweller 21:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So? Is that a problem? Is 33 too large a number" Modern Orthodoxy only has this one institution in the USA, whereas Haredim and Hasidim have hundreds of yeshivas an kollelim, each with a rosh yeshiva and a rosh kollel. 16:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and expand --YoavD 05:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and expand. Give it some time, the article was just created a couple of days ago. --MPerel 05:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Expand/clarify or delete. Stub does not prove N at all. IZAK, thanks for pointing out the diluted use of the term at YU. If this title is given to many rabbis at a certain institution, it does not mean that they should automatically be given the same notability status that other main Rosh Yeshivas are given. Importance of the institution and internal promotion decisions of an institution do not automatically make someone N on WP, no matter how learned and 'important' they might otherwise be. Article should be immediately updated to pass Wikipedia:Notability (academics) oder Wikipedia:Notability (people).--Shuki 08:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Shuki: That is why there is Category:Yeshiva University rosh yeshivas for this sub-group of Category:Rosh yeshivas. Who is going to give them farhers and figure out if they are as great as some of the other rosh yeshivas? You know, no-one has sat down and defined exactly what qualifies anyone to be a "rosh yeshiva" or how that honorific should or should not be used. It's the same with YU rabbis, many people to the right of YU, feel that YU is a "semicha mill" but if you really look closely, how many rabbis does YU produce compared to the other yeshivas combined? Very few. If you add up all the shtiebel rebbes and all the people that the Haredi yeshivas put out who become teachers, out-of-town kollel members, rebbeing in the elementary and high and bais medrash level, (and they function and are called and respected as rabbis, even though many of them lack formal semichas) then the Haredi yeshivas far outpace places like YU in "producing" rabbis. So if YU has a name for its top magidei shiur and calls them Rosh Yeshivas it is not as if every person in the place has been given that title. Our friend Dweller says that YU lists 33 current rosh yeshivas. So? All for the one and only Modern Orthodox institution, and how does that compare if you add up all the other rosh yeshivas (sometimes called "menahelim" and sometimes called "RaMs") who would constitute infinitely more. But it is a question of degrees, and there is no need to agonize over it.IZAK 16:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So what's your point? If Belz starts doing the same thing, does it suddenly make all of their RYs notable? Some people would think that all rabbis are notable, but we know that on WP, it ain't so. Same for RY's. Wikipedia:Notability (academics) or Wikipedia:Notability (people). There should be a definite distinction between 'the' main Rosh Yeshiva or two. Again, are you basing notability on title? That's like saying that Dr. Nick Riviera is a real doctor. --Shuki 18:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Shuki: That is why there is Category:Yeshiva University rosh yeshivas for this sub-group of Category:Rosh yeshivas. Who is going to give them farhers and figure out if they are as great as some of the other rosh yeshivas? You know, no-one has sat down and defined exactly what qualifies anyone to be a "rosh yeshiva" or how that honorific should or should not be used. It's the same with YU rabbis, many people to the right of YU, feel that YU is a "semicha mill" but if you really look closely, how many rabbis does YU produce compared to the other yeshivas combined? Very few. If you add up all the shtiebel rebbes and all the people that the Haredi yeshivas put out who become teachers, out-of-town kollel members, rebbeing in the elementary and high and bais medrash level, (and they function and are called and respected as rabbis, even though many of them lack formal semichas) then the Haredi yeshivas far outpace places like YU in "producing" rabbis. So if YU has a name for its top magidei shiur and calls them Rosh Yeshivas it is not as if every person in the place has been given that title. Our friend Dweller says that YU lists 33 current rosh yeshivas. So? All for the one and only Modern Orthodox institution, and how does that compare if you add up all the other rosh yeshivas (sometimes called "menahelim" and sometimes called "RaMs") who would constitute infinitely more. But it is a question of degrees, and there is no need to agonize over it.IZAK 16:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.