Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2009 November 13

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November 13

File:Zbigniew Herbert2.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Zbigniew Herbert2.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Appears to be scan from printed source; no source provided; without that, unable to determine proper license Skier Dude (talk) 04:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The same uncropped image appears at http://www.zgapa.pl/zgapedia/Zbigniew_Herbert.html possibly not the original source but uncropped area has credit for www.lwow.home.pl so unlikely to be the work of the uploader. MilborneOne (talk) 21:29, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:PrslPlayoff1.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Angusmclellan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:PrslPlayoff1.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Image found on this site, apparently the club's official site: http://sevillafcpr.com/inicio/

Unlikely that the image is licensed under a GFDL license. Mosmof (talk) 04:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Arab World-Large.PNG

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The result of the discussion was: No action. Being handled (along with other similar uploads) at Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Arab_League. Shell ^babelfish 04:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Arab World-Large.PNG (delete | talk | history | logs).

This image seems to have been taken from an Atlas of some sort. Note the logo in the bottom left corner of the map key. No reason given to suggest the uploader is the copyright holder. -FASTILY ^(TALK) 04:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i AM the creator of the map, since the logo your referring to is a logo of an Atlas that I have created and is due to be published at the end of this year... Arab League User (talk) 13:45, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of relevance: Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Arab League. MER-C 13:40, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Campeones2.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Angusmclellan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Campeones2.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Image found on this site, apparently the club's official site: http://sevillafcpr.com/inicio/ Unlikely that the image is licensed under a GFDL license. Mosmof (talk) 04:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Sevilla fc.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Skier Dude (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 05:46, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sevilla fc.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Same image that predates this upload by over a year appears here: http://www.jesusalvarado.com/2008/07/01/jose-maria-del-nido-viaja-a-puerto-rico/ Considering the user's other uploads, unlikely that the licensing information is correct. Mosmof (talk) 04:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Bald Freak Music - Return To Earth Logo.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Bald Freak Music - Return To Earth Logo.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

band logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 06:22, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Bald Freak Music - QBall Logo.gif

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Bald Freak Music - QBall Logo.gif (delete | talk | history | logs).

band logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 06:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:"Little Nuts" by Alden Marin (poet).jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:"Little Nuts" by Alden Marin (poet).jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

book cover; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 06:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:09Vocal ECard V3.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:09Vocal ECard V3.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

event poster; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 06:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:1349 band portrait - 2009.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:1349 band portrait - 2009.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Appears to be promotional/professional shot, no source Skier Dude (talk) 06:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:2645.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:2645.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Appears to be cropped from a promotional image of some sort, judging by the white, studio-like background. No evidence given to suggest that the uploader is the copyright holder. FASTILY_sock ^(TALK) 06:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello. I posted the file. It is a promotional photo, taken of me and owned by me. I have no idea why it was deleted but I'd like it back thank you. TimEllis43 (talk) 12:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:188BET website.PNG

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The result of the discussion was: Delete. Shell ^babelfish 04:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:188BET website.PNG (delete | talk | history | logs).

web screenshot, unlikely uploader is (c) holder Skier Dude (talk) 06:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:2005 Chardonnay.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Delete. Shell ^babelfish 04:55, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:2005 Chardonnay.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

wine label; unlikely uploader is (c) holder Skier Dude (talk) 07:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Local08 coverfile.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Converted to Fair Use. No evidence of permission, fair use and rationale added for article on comic book; image removed from author article since no rationale was available. Shell ^babelfish 05:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Local08 coverfile.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

comic book cover; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder Skier Dude (talk) 07:09, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Locked.JPG

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) A file with this name on Commons is now visible. AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Locked.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR - derivative FC logo Skier Dude (talk) 07:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:DMZ17.gif

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The result of the discussion was: Converted to Fair Use. No evidence of permission, fair use and rationale added for article on comic book; image removed from author article since no rationale was available. Shell ^babelfish 05:04, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:DMZ17.gif (delete | talk | history | logs).

comic cover; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder Skier Dude (talk) 07:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:LockwoodTheGreenQuotient.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Amorymeltzer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 17:43, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:LockwoodTheGreenQuotient.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

book cover; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please give me some time to verify the copyright status. Excuse me for failing to look into this guideline further. Thank you. Jxc5 (talk) 07:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Lodge arms.GIF

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Lodge arms.GIF (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR lodge logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo Buenavista.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Converted to Fair Use. Image is the seal; added fair use and rationale. Shell ^babelfish 05:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo Buenavista.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

civic logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:15, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo Ai Skopje.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Converted to Fair Use. Converted to fair use with rationale for logo; uploaded most recent logo per official website. Shell ^babelfish 05:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo Ai Skopje.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

corporate logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:15, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo FDC.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Convert to Fair Use. Verified this is current logo, converted to fair use and added rationale. Shell ^babelfish 05:19, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo FDC.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

school logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:17, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo FamilyIgloo.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo FamilyIgloo.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR corporate logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo ITNM.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo ITNM.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR school logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo Prewang.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Delete. Unable to determine if this is legitimate logo or halloween fun; no source and no evidence of permission. Shell ^babelfish 05:22, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo Prewang.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

FC logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo Ysgol Gyfun Garth Olwg.JPG

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The result of the discussion was: 'Delete. Unable to verify that this is official logo; different logo in article and on official website. No evidence of permission. Shell ^babelfish 05:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo Ysgol Gyfun Garth Olwg.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs).

school logo (badge); no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is the badge of my Secondary School and has no copyright or trademark associated with it. It was designed by a fellow pupil. If it isn't under the right sections or liscence prehaps you could point me in the right direction? Glenny127 (talk) 17:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo acay2007.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Delete. No evidence this logo is associated with article subject; no evidence of permission. Shell ^babelfish 05:27, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo acay2007.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

corporate logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo done copy.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Delete. No evidence this is an official logo, no source and no evidence of permission. Shell ^babelfish 05:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo done copy.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

church logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo md svv 01.gif

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo md svv 01.gif (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR FC logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:22, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo kay-anlog.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Converted to Fair Use. Appears to be seal of city; added fair use and rationale. Shell ^babelfish 05:31, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo kay-anlog.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

civic logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo old.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Converted to fair use. No evidence of permission but does appear to be official logo; converted to fair use with rationale. Shell ^babelfish 05:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo old.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

corporate logo; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo patch.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo patch.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR civic law enforcement logo/patch; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:27, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo text small.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo text small.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR corporate logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logo2007.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Converted to Fair Use. Official website shows this as logo; no evidence of permission so converted to fair use. Shell ^babelfish 15:55, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logo2007.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Organization logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here (1st upload...? ) Skier Dude (talk) 07:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logoonlimesmall.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Deleted. Unable to verify that this is an official logo; no evidence of permission. Shell ^babelfish 16:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logoonlimesmall.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

corporate logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:36, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:My Damn Channel logo.png

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The result of the discussion was: Replaced. Appears to be marketing material but no evidence of permission, replaced with official logo and converted to fair use with rationale. Shell ^babelfish 16:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:My Damn Channel logo.png (delete | talk | history | logs).

website logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logosjc.gif

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logosjc.gif (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR corporate logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Logoztbl.JPG

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The result of the discussion was: Kept. Corrected source and licensing. Shell ^babelfish 16:25, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Logoztbl.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs).

corporate logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
i have taken this logo from the official website of ZTBL, so there is no issue in it, Azam Ishaque 18:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azamishaque (talk • contribs)

Well, that didn't resolve either of the issues - there still isn't a legit source & the image is still licensed PD-self w/self as the creator. Skier Dude (talk) 03:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:CGPS.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:CGPS.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

OR school logo; no source; if legit, uploader would not be (c) holder, if not, no need for user-created art here Skier Dude (talk) 07:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The following discussion is an archived inquiry of the possible unfree image below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OR artwork, title sort of hints at it being (c); no source Skier Dude (talk) 07:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Timlove.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Skier Dude (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Timlove.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Image found here: [1] as being courtesy Lonesome Dove Western Bistro; no indication of release into the public domain. fuzzy510 (talk) 08:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image also found here: [2] --fuzzy510 (talk) 08:08, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Wiki Talhan .JPG

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Wiki Talhan .JPG (delete | talk | history | logs).

User has uploaded similar files as non-free; see File:Wikipedia pic Baba Nihal.jpg for example. I suspect this is a misleading license selected to avoid the NFCC. Low resolution, no metadata, and all the usual hallmarks of an image found somewhere on the web. (ESkog)^(Talk) 15:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Thatcher-ross.jpg

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The result of the discussion was: Delete. At first thought this was likely pd due to being published without a copyright notice in 1969, however, further research made me realize that this was likely published in Canada not the US. Shell ^babelfish 16:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Thatcher-ross.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

Unclear that the uploader is the copyright holder. Stifle (talk) 15:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I asked for help here here at Wikimedia copyright and I'm glad someone might help sort this out. The subject is dead, we don't know the photographer and the original picture owner is also dead. I thought the article is improved with a photo, but if it has to be deleted, it can go if that's the right answer. It seemed to me that in the circumstances it was probably okay, but I am no expert. Please advise. Thanks a lot. --Fremte (talk) 18:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Ryeowon001jv0.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Ryeowon001jv0.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

The uploader, User:Colleen16, is not the same person as the purported author of the photo,

Jung Ryu Won, who is also the image subject Jezhotwells (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: User:InkHeart, alias User:Colleen16, alias User:Belov, alias User:DelaClaire, alias User:JezzyBear, alias User:JKSarang blocked as per [3] and [4]. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Daniel&RyuWon2005.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Daniel&RyuWon2005.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

The uploader, User:Colleen16, is not the same person as the purported author of the photo,

Jung Ryu Won, who is also the image subject Jezhotwells (talk) 18:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: User:InkHeart, alias User:Colleen16, alias User:Belov, alias User:DelaClaire, alias User:JezzyBear, alias User:JKSarang blocked as per [5] and [6]. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:DaHaeLee2009.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:DaHaeLee2009.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

The uploader, User:Colleen16, is not the same person as the purported author of the photo,

Lee Da Hae Daum, who is also the image subject Jezhotwells (talk) 18:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: User:InkHeart, alias User:Colleen16, alias User:Belov, alias User:DelaClaire, alias User:JezzyBear, alias User:JKSarang blocked as per [7] and [8]. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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File:Episode II Shanghai.jpg

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The result of the debate was: Delete; deleted by Explicit (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:45, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Episode II Shanghai.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs).

The uploader, User:Colleen16, is not the same person as the purported author of the photo,

Suki (JunkiChina) Jezhotwells (talk) 18:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: User:InkHeart, alias User:Colleen16, alias User:Belov, alias User:DelaClaire, alias User:JezzyBear, alias User:JKSarang blocked as per [9] and [10]. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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