Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People

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Vital Articles

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Vital Articles, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of vital articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and work together to increase the quality of Wikipedia's essential articles.Vital ArticlesWikipedia:WikiProject Vital ArticlesTemplate:WikiProject Vital ArticlesVital Articles articles

General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)
P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
P = passes F = fails		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
3. Have at least 4 participants.
For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

15 days ago is: 05:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
7 days ago is: 05:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Add either Thomas A. Dorsey, The Dixie Hummingbirds, or Blind Willie Johnson

I think we can squeeze one more gospel act on here, but unfortunately I’m not sure which of these three I want to add.

My first option was Thomas A Dorsey. I have frequently heard of him referred to as the Father of Gospel Music. Our article claims that he’s written 3,000 songs, including “Peace in the Valley” and “Take My Hand, Precious Lord”, the latter being the favorite song of Martin Luther King Jr. 5. Note however that he is rated low-importance on the WikiProject Christian music. (Although he’s also conversely rated as Top-importance on the WikiProject African diaspora.)

My next option is The Dixie Hummingbirds. Rated high-importance on the WikiProject Christian music, they are probably the most well-known jubilee quartet. They have inspired Jackie Wilson 5 and James Brown 5, backed Paul Simon 5 in his song “Loves Me Like a Rock”, and their rendition of Amazing Grace 5 is in the Grammy Hall of Fame.

My third option is Blind Willie Johnson. So, he’s a bit of a curveball; I know to a lot of people, Johnson is a blues musician first and foremost. I’m advocating him because unlike his fellow Texan Blind Lemon Jefferson, all of Johnson’s records had a religious bent to them. His songs include “In My Time of Dying”, “It’s Nobody’s Fault but Mine”, “John the Revelator”, and the one that went to outer space on the Voyager “Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground”.

Support Thomas A. Dorsey

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 12:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom.Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support The Dixie Hummingbirds

Support Blind Willie Johnson (please indicate if you want to put him in the R&B section)

Probably under R&B as he does seems to be more frequently described as such Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 12:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom.Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add The Specials

Leading drivers of second-wave ska. Their label 2 Tone Records is the namesake of the Two-tone music genre.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
49p (talk) 05:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom.Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Allen Klein

An extremely controversial manager. Associated with Sam Cooke 5, The Beatles 3, and The Rolling Stones 5.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"one of the most powerful individuals in the music industry during his era" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Norman Granz

Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald 5.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"the most successful impresario in the history of jazz" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sam Gilliam

He seems somewhat important. I am not an art scholar.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

3 interwikis suggest that he was not influential. The Blue Rider 11:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per aboveMakkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Yigal Amir

Assassinated Yitzhak Rabin 5, who had signed the Oslo Accords in an attempt to end the Israel-Palestine conflict, and is arguably responsible for derailing the peace process and preventing a two-state solution as a result.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap C. R. Swart 5 for D. F. Malan

C.R. Swart was the first State President of South Africa after South Africa became a Republic - which was at the time, only a ceremonial position, as the actual head of government was the Prime Minister, which is highlighted by him also being the last Governor-General (represenative to the British crown), also a ceremonial position. D. F. Malan, on the other hand, is responsible for being the first prime minister to implement Apartheid 5 (under that name, as opposed to the older forms of segregation present in South Africa) and also marked the start of over 40 years of continuous National Party rule. The only caveat is that he is less well-known for his role in constructing apartheid than his successor, Hendrik Verwoerd 5.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom EleniXDD※Talk 05:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Leopoldo Galtieri for Javier Milei

There's little of note in Galtieri's biography besides the Falklands War, which is already a vital article, so there would be overlap. Milei, the current president of Argentina, got international notice as part of the recent international trend of right-wing leaders. Cambalachero (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nominator Cambalachero (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

We now subject world leaders to the "head of lettuce" test. Revisit this fall when he has served a year. _pbp 17:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Military personnel alterations

Move Julius Maada Bio 5 to politicians and leaders

PASSED

Moved 4-0 Makkool (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Briefly led a transitional military government in 1996, before returning to (electoral) politics and becoming elected president in 2018. Definitely only really seems notable as a politician.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Sebhat Ephrem

PASSED

Removed 5-0 Makkool (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If he was vital, then he should be under politicians. But even so, there's very little here to assert vitality.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Fritz Loots

PASSED

Removed 5-0 Makkool (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Presumably included for founding the South African Special Forces - which isn't a VA. There's nothing else here that indicates vitality.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Samora Machel 5 to politicians and leader

PASSED

Moved 5-0 Makkool (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This entry was the original reason I made these proposals - the founding president of Mozambique, who served for over ten years, is listed here for his involvement in the Mozambican War of Independence 5. It seems fairly obvious he is much more well-known as a national "founding father" than a soldier or general.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Joseph Saidu Momoh 5 to politicians and leaders

PASSED

Moved 4-0 Makkool (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

President of Sierra Leone for six and a half years.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Valentine Strasser 5 to politicians and leaders

PASSED

Moved 4-0 Makkool (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Head of state of Sierra Leone for four years.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Pedro Eugenio Aramburu 5 to politicians and leaders

De facto president of Argentina for 2.5 years, and only really known for that.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 09:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Ayub Khan (Emir of Afghanistan) 5 to politicians and leaders

Emir of Afghanistan, not much else to say. He is well-known for leading Afghanistan's troops during the Second Anglo-Afghan War at the same time, but I don't think that supersedes him being Emir.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 09:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Prabowo Subianto 5 to politicians and leaders

PASSED

Moved 4-0 Makkool (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Has been one of Indonesia's most prominent politicians since the late 2000s, and is currently president-elect.

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque 5

PASSED

Added 4-0 Makkool (talk) 09:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

One of the most important military leaders of the French resistance

Support

Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. We should add the French Resistance as well Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 20:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

General comment

These proposals are testament to what I've been saying for awhile: it's silly to have politicians, military, activists and jurists in four different pots. The lines between the four are just too blurred. _pbp

Addtional removals proposed by PBP89

Remove Sam Bockarie and Issa Sesay

Only five interwikis for Bockarie and only four for Sesay. We have five other VA5 articles to represent the coups and unrest in Sierra Leone _pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose
Discussion

Remove Jan Breytenbach

Relatively minor/obscure figure in South African special forces who happened to write a book. Only six interwikis _pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose
Discussion

Remove James Kabarebe

Only five interwikis

Support

Oppose
Discussion

Remove Ras Mengesha Yohannes

Only five interwikis and only 800-odd page views a month. We already have Mikael of Wollo from the Mahdist War

Support

Oppose
Discussion

Remove Benjamin Yeaten

Not one interwiki link. Not one. _pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose
Discussion

Remove Samora Yunis

Just one interwiki link _pbp 15:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose
Discussion

Add Muqtada al-Sadr to Lv 5. activists

For awhile during the Iraq War era, seemed like you'd turn on the radio or TV and you'd always hear what "forces loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr were up to. 44 interwikis. Could also be added under military or religion _pbp 21:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 21:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to say he should be under politicians, but it seems he never held any office, surprisingly. Iostn (talk) 21:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 20:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Move the troubadours, trouvères, and Minnesägner to musicians

I feel like these guys should be listed under musicians. Unlike the Greek lyricists like Sappho, we do have some of the original music that their poems were set to. (Admittedly, it's a small "some"—only about 12% according to the troubadours page—and I don't think the people I'm about to request to be moved are among those whose musical compositions survived.) However, I don't know where exactly they should be placed. I personally lean towards putting them under Western art music (either under Medieval and Renaissance composers, or even a new section like how ragtime or soundtrack composers have their own list) but I'm fine putting them in the songwriters section with Carl Michael Bellman and Stephen Foster.

Here are the people I want to move, plus two more that I'm just throwing in because they're either a troubadour, trouvère, or a Minnesinger:

Bertran de Born 5 (troubadour)
Chrétien de Troyes 5 (trovère; personally his chivalric romances firmly keeps him in the writers page)
Arnaut Daniel 5 (troubadour)
Wolfram von Eschenbach 5 (Minnesigner; he seems more important as a poet in general)
Rutebeuf 5 (trovère)
Tannhäuser 5 (Minnesigner)
William IX, Duke of Aquitaine 5 (troubadour)

Under Western art music (Medieval and Renaissance)

Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator, same exceptions. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Under Western art music (new section)

Under songwriters

Keep under poets

Discuss

Chretien is Level 4, so moving him should be decided on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Anton Pannekoek

Managed to be a major figure both in astronomy and Marxist theory, I think he could go in either section in terms of position,

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 21:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
--Thi (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support addition to astronomy section. Going by Google Scholar results, out of 11,200 total results, he is referenced in relation to astronomy 7,740 times, while he is referenced in relation to Marxism 1,270 times. His influence on astronomy is a lot greater than his influence on Marxism, what with his ideas on council communism being a lot more niche compared to other tendencies. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:24, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Leochares

Page's pretty bare.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

@SailorGardevoir, Makkool, and Starship.paint: While I will admit that stubs are typically less vital, there are exceptions to that, and this sculptor is one. He worked on the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus 5, he created the Diana of Versailles (should probably be vital judging by its article), and he made several other popular sculptures. He is therefore vital enough to make the list, and you make a better argument for improving his article than removing it from the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@QuicoleJR: - I'm not convinced that there is indeed enough information on him out there to make a comprehensive biography rather than a stub. starship .paint (RUN) 14:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are some decent results on Google Books and Google Scholar for anyone with the time and resources needed. A bad Brittanica article should not be the deciding factor for someone's vitality. Just because we don't have much in our article or Brittanica's doesn't mean he didn't have lasting importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@QuicoleJR: the onus is on you to prove with links that there is detailed coverage of him, simply asserting is not good enough. starship .paint (RUN) 14:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Moving discussion here for ease of reading. I'll see if I can find some links in a few minutes. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although, I will just say that I think that the person is vital even without finding extra sources for expanding the article. He makes valid claims to vitality, and that should be enough. I don't see how article size factors in to it, and there are plenty of better targets for removal. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is my personal opinion that since the vital article project is intended to establish important articles that should be improved, if there are articles on a person/object that cannot be improved to a high quality because there is simply not enough information about the person/object out there, then we should not list them as vital. You would probably disagree. starship .paint (RUN) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think your opinion is valid. I am willing to retract my Oppose for now, since I have other things I care more about. However, I will put this on my to-do list and will propose adding it back to the list if I am able to destub it. Does this work for you? QuicoleJR (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@QuicoleJR: - what I would be looking for is for someone, anyone to prove that there's enough information out there to satisfy FA requirements (it does not require that the article be updated). starship .paint (RUN) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Smokey Robinson

For once, I’m going to make an addition proposal. We have The Miracles 5 on here, but this is definitely a case of a member being vital in their own right. Not only was he the main songwriter and producer for the group (who were called Smokey Robinson and the Miracles from 1965 to 1972), he was also the main songwriter and producer for The Temptations 5, the vice president of Motown, and he received his Hollywood Walk of Fame 5 star and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 5 induction before the rest of the group.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Move Mikael Agricola 5 to linguists

He is more a vital to the encyclopedia as the founder of Finnish literary language, than as one of many Protestant reformators in Kingdom of Sweden. Makkool (talk) 18:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Five politicians from the Maldives?

The Maldives are a teeny-tiny country, isn't five leader a bit much? Granted, some served as Monarch, president or Prime Minister for quite awhile, but still, FIVE? _pbp 21:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Abdul Majeed Didi

Stub article with only six interwikis _pbp 21:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Per Kevinishere15. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

"Didi is recognized a reformer and has been described as 'the father of the modern Maldives' ". Kevinishere15 (talk) 00:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Mohamed Amin Didi

Ruled a tiny country for less than a year

Support

_pbp 21:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does not seem important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Steve Albini

Well-known producer known for producing albums from Pixies (band) 5, Fugazi 5, Nirvana (band) 5, PJ Harvey 5, etc. He recently passed away (a couple hours from this message) but I was surprised to know he wasn't on this list yet despite his contributions. 49p (talk) 19:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

49p (talk) 19:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC), per nom[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

He is not notable enough as a musician and I am not sure where the bar is for producers. What producers do we have listed?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have "Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople." This list is hard to compare because most of these people are known to be executives, rather than being known as producers/engineers.

The ones who are close to Albini that we have are Alan Parsons 5 who was "assistant engineer" on Abbey Road and main engineer for The Dark Side of the Moon and known for performing as the Alan Parsons Project. Trevor Horn 5 is a producer known for his work in Yes (band) and is called "the man who invented the eighties" per his page. Other producers we have are King Tubby 5, Quincy Jones 5, and Rick Rubin 5 which are all much similar (known for working with well-known artists, except with the case of Tubby where he's more known for popularizing dub music)

So I think the bar is either producing well known albums or making a impact on a known genre. I say given Albini's work in albums like Surfer Rosa, In Utero, Pod (The Breeders album), and Rid of Me he seems to fit. A fair argument you can make to not include Albini is most of these artists worked with "extremely" well known artists (Parsons worked with The Beatles and Pink Floyd, which is probably like a tier down from bands like The Pixies or Nirvana (band).) 49p (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nirvana's final album is pretty big, but I am on the fence.-~~

English football adjustments

Swap Gary Lineker 5 for Jimmy Greaves

Greaves is the top scorer in the history of English top-tier football, he was apart of England's 66' FIFA World Cup triumph and he his often regarded as one of (if not the best) English domestic player during the 20th Century. Whilst Lineker's career is outstanding, it is a shoulder below that of Greaves' legacy; and if not Greaves, many more modern careers have since surpassed Lineker's. It could be argued that Harry Kane (England's top scorer), Manual Neuer (his generation's greatest keeper), Modrić /Benzema /Iniesta /Kaka or Suárez, all deserve places ahead of Lineker, and the list goes on... Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Swap Malcolm Allison for Herbert Chapman

PASSED

Swapped 4-0. Phikia (talk) 08:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chapman was one of the most revolutionary English managers during the early 20th century and I was surprised he wasn't already included. He is mostly responsible in England for floodlights at football matches, shirt numbers, physiotherapists in player management and several other traditions and practices. His tenure at both Huddersfield and Arsenal is regarded as one of the finest periods in the history of each club. Chapman's Arsenal team from the early 1930s is still revered as one of the greatest in English football history. Whereas for Allison, I really couldn't tell you much about him, mostly because I simply don't know him; but it is easy to see how Chapman's legacy as a manager dwarfs that of Allisons. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Phikia (talk) 04:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Hassan al-Banna

Founder of the Muslim Brotherhood 5. His ideas shaped the modern discourse on the intersection of Islam and politics.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Meir Kahane

Usually I would just do a bold move, but I have no idea where to put him. All I know is I don't feel like his current position (under religious figures) is the best place to put him. Yes, his Zionism was on the religious side and he was an ordained rabbi, but his beliefs at its very core was ultranationalist. Now I personally am in favor of putting him under rebels, but he was elected, and we have been moving those type of guys to politicians. I also get the rationale of placing him under terrorists.

To politicians

SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To rebels

To terrorists

Assuming we even keep terrorists as a subsection (which is inherently controversial and contested), as he is mentioned within the first paragraph alone as having been convicted on terrorism charges, and has an entire section entitled "terrorism and convictions". His term in the Knesset was a pretty small part of his overall career and during that time he arguably lacked institutional influence that others would normally have as he was boycotted by all other members. Iostn (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep under religious figures

Discuss

Add Talha ibn 'Ubayd Allah and Sa'id ibn Zayd

To make up for my recent requests, let me advocate for the addition of these guys. There are the only people who were a part of the ten to whom Paradise was promised who are not on here. In comparison (which is admittedly imperfect since the whole ten list is strictly a Sunni thing), we have all twelve Apostles on here, plus Matthais.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Ch'oe Ch'i-wŏn

Although we got a lot of reformers on here, their activities are at least tied to their religion. I don't think that's the cause for Ch'oe, especially since during the time he was active, he was a Confucianist, not a Buddhist. I prefer moving him to the politicians page, but since he was apparently a philosopher, I'll leave that option out as well. (We do have people in that page who were government officials.)

To politicians

SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To philosophers

Keep

Discuss

Add Wallace Fard Muhammad

Again, making up for my recent proposals. Considering that the Nation of Islam has its own separate subsection for their figures, we should probably have its founder.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:13, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely important as Louis Farrakhan, or Elijah Muhammad. 49p (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Baba Farid

Another person to make up for my recent proposals, although he seems to be just as important as a literature figure as he is a religious one, so I'll throw in that option as well. Seems pretty important amongst not just the Muslim population of Punjab, but for Punjabis in general.

Support (under Sufism)

SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support (under poets)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove MacKinlay Kantor

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not every Pulitzer Prize winner is vital, and this guy does not have much else going for him. Most of his books don't have articles, and there is no indication of lasting influence.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Starhawk

An influential proponent on Neo-paganism in the public eye. List under Religious figures.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Swap Meralda Warren 5 with Margaret Mahy

Meralda Warren is a local writer from a tiny British Overseas Territory. Her Wikipedia biography tells more about other things she has done than her writing career. On the other hand, Margaret Mahy was an acclaimed children's author from New Zealand with major-award-winning books. Currently we don't list any children's authors from NZ.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support addition per nom. She has won several major awards and written over 100 books. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose removal Her having more importance than just being an author is a point towards keeping, not a reason to remove. Her article does a pretty good job of showing importance, and there are plenty of authors from the U.S. and UK who have nothing going for them besides writing a few somewhat popular books that we can remove first to meet the quota. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Moving entries from "rebels" to "terrorists"

"Terrorists" is always going to be controversial as a subsection, but as long as its there, it makes sense to list people there if they are described as "terrorist" by their own articles.

I think it used to suffer as a section when there was a subsection quota, which encouraged filling it in quite an arbitrary way to reach a certain number of articles, while others were listed in different places regardless of wherever it made much sense.

For this reason I will propose moving the following articles currently listed with "rebels, revolutionaries and activists":

Carlos the Jackal 5 - described as committing "terrorist bombings" in the first sentence alone, and then directlty afterwards described as "one of the most notorious political terrorists of his era".
Ayman al-Zawahiri 5 - lede doesn't actually use the word "terrorist", but it still remains strewn throughout the rest of the article, and as he was the second leader of Al-Qaeda 5, it doesn't make much sense to separate him from Osama bin Laden 5 listing-wise.
Jihadi John 5 - "A group of his hostages nicknamed him "John" since he was part of a four-person terrorist cell"
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi 5 - "ran a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan"

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Related proposal: Move Dylann Roof 5 from "murder" to "terrorism"

I would normally do myself but again, "terrorism" in inherently controversial as a label and ill-defined.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: Remove Jamshid bin Abdullah of Zanzibar, add Ali Hassan Mwinyi and Samia Suluhu Hassan

At the present time, Zanzibar has two articles, including Jamshid, who fails the lettuce test of less than a year in office. Its successor nation, Tanzania, has sixty million people but only one article. Mwinyi served as president for 10 years and enacted a series of post-Nyerere reforms. Hassan is the country's first female president. Mwinyi and Hassan have significantly more interwikis than Jamshid. _pbp 22:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Leung Chun-ying

As with Tu above, Hong Kong is bloated with six post-1945 leaders, including five post-1997 leaders. Of the leaders of Hong Kong, he seems the least vital. _pbp 22:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Don't really see how he's the least vital, he seems to mark an important milestone re: the erosion of Hong Kong's autonomy.

Discussion

Massive shift of politicians from early modern to post-classical without consensus

It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453. Now it's 1500, meaning quite a few Renaissance figures are listed in post-classical when ANY historian worth his salt would have them in early modern. Dozens, perhaps over 100 figures were moved, and I'm not only concerned about the WP:RANDY aspect of this, I'm also concerned that moving that many figures should have only been done with a consensus. _pbp 17:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who did it? The Blue Rider

20:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was SailorGardevoir _pbp 10:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SailorGardevoir: The Blue Rider

11:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453. - based on what? This should have been noted somewhere on the vital list page. Thing is, Post-classical history says until 1500 CE, and early modern period says it starts about 1500. So what should be the year for the split? starship .paint (RUN) 14:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. If the leaders/politicians page explicitly had a different timeline structure, then by all means revert it. However, so long as we have a generic four period structure as we do for most of the other pages (Ancient, Post-classical, Early modern, and Late modern), we need to stick with what our own articles on those periods state are the years they lasted. And if anyone has an issue with this, please go to this discussion, because I do think we need a clear answer for this. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Hun Manet

Cambodia's current leader, I know he hasn't served a full year yet but him being the first new leader in 37 years makes him vital IMO. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I don't really see why we are priotizing him over other new leaders especially when his accesion doesn't seem to herald any significant change in Cambodia. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unlikely to be seen as vital in 20 years' time. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Murderer clean-up

Before subsection quotas were abolished there was a supported proposal to reduce the number of spaces under "Murder, serial killing, mass murder" in favour of those responsible for more societally impactful crimes (such as assassination, crimes against humanity and terrorism). While this was rendered moot by the removal of quotas, I still think the murder section needs to be cleaned up as it has quite a big US bias and also many of the spree killers also have the sprees they were responsible for listed under history, which makes a better case for cleaning up spaces here.

Remove Gameel Al-Batouti 5

Aside from anything else, it doesn't even seem clear, nor is there any way to conclusively determine, whether he deliberately caused deaths or not. I suppose EgyptAir Flight 990 could be listed but I'm not sure how much it stands out compared to other plane crashes.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Martin Bryant 5

Port Arthur massacre (Australia) 5 is already listed.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Seung-Hui Cho 5 for Virginia Tech shooting

Based on the principle of the vent itself being more important than the person who is solely notable because of it.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Belle Gunness 5

Not among the most well-known serial killers. The article does say that "some sources speculate her involvement in as many as 40 murders making her one of the most prolific female serial killers in history", but that is well, speculative.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Richard Hauptmann 5

Lindbergh kidnapping 5 is already listed, and he is not known to have been responsible for any other murders.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Richard Hickock 5 and Perry Edward Smith 5

These two are seemingly only listed for their involvement in a murder case which inspired the writing of In Cold Blood 5, which was influential on the True crime 5 genre. The book is already listed and their actual crime doesn't seem to stand out on a broader level.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Andrew Kehoe 5 for Bath School disaster

Same rationale as Seung-Hui Cho.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Marc Lépine 5

École Polytechnique massacre 5 is already listed.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Earle Nelson 5

"considered the first known serial sex murderer of the twentieth century". Other than that doesn't really seem to stand out compared to other serial killers.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Stephen Paddock

2017 Las Vegas shooting is already listed.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Jane Toppan

Doesn't stand out compared to other serial killers.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 05:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Pedro López (serial killer)

One of the most prolific serial killers in history, and is second only to Luis Garavito 5 on List of serial killers by number of victims.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Pedro Rodrigues Filho

Per his cultural influence in Brazil, and this list needs less US bias. Also inspired the protagonist of Dexter (TV series) 5.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Howard Unruh 5

Initially didn't propose this as I was under the impression it was relatively well-remembered, but the low number of interwikis and pageviews compared to many of the others here indicates otherwise.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not that important Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Casualties of the September 11 attacks 5

Or just move it to history. I hate to remove an article based on how it fits into this project, but this one just sticks out like a sore thumb being on the people pages. Even the articles based on a group of people don't really resemble what is essentially a statistic page.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 15:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems way too specific. 49p (talk) 06:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nehru–Gandhi family and/or remove Kennedy family

The former is clearly more vital than the latter, IMO. A removal may be in order given how both are just glorified lists at the minute, but I reckon more could be written of them. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support both

Support addition; oppose removal

Tentatively, as nom. J 947 ‡ ^edits 04:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 12:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support removal; oppose addition

Oppose both

Discussion

Remove Woo Bum-kon incident 5

Article was moved from Woo Bum-kon and rescoped to be event-based and not a biography. It is now no longer fit for its section which is of criminal biographies. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

This just brings up the question: does it really make much difference how the article is framed, if its still focused solely through the lens of its perpertrator (and I'm not sure if that page should've been even moved to start with, if reliable sources are just naming the events strictly through that lens anyway)? For example, if we list a murder case of someone who is only known for being the victim of that particularly murder case, should that be under the victims section? Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Georgette Heyer

My previous removal nominations, as well as the ones still to come, should make enough room to add this woman. She has had a major impact on the Romance novel 5 genre, having a major role in popularizing the historical romance subgenre and creating a new subgenre of that. 40 of her books currently have their own articles. 24 interwikis, rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Romance and WikiProject Women writers.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Budai

AKA The Laughing Buddha. Favorite subject for East Asian artists and the reason why a lot of Westerners picture the founder of Buddhism as a fat Chinese man. (Nominating him here since the general consensus appears to be that he was originally an actual Chinese monk who later got deified.)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 08:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove AXXo 5

Unknown individual known for movie rips. Extremely popular during the era, but I feel like there are other groups and people known for piracy that aren't included. We don't include Razor 1911 which has been software cracking since 1985 compared to aXXo whose career is from 2005 to 2009.

Support

per nom. I would support a swap for Razor 1911 if that gets enough votes. 49p (talk) 05:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Anonymous (hacker group)

Popular for their cyberattacks and prescene in the 2010s. Quite literally listed as "100 most influential people" per Time magazine in 2012 according to the article. I don't think this one needs much explaining, considering we also include LulzSec 5.

Support

49p (talk) 06:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Important enough, if needed we could swap with Lulzsec. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Plenty of real-world influence.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 08:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

I WILL say this, though: making the TIME 100 just once isn't a good criteria for inclusion. We don't even have all the TIME People of the Year. _pbp 13:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I made this late at night haha. I was trying to say that the group itself has undoubtedly enough influence in the real world. not just because it's specifically in "time 100" 49p (talk) 14:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We likely will never have the 2006 Time Person of the Year :) Aurangzebra (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Caroline Lee Hentz 5

Only claim to vitality is writing a somewhat famous anti-Tom novel. She did not start the short-lived anti-Tom movement and Anti-Tom literature is not listed as vital. Only 6 interwikis.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 15:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Kevin Poulsen 5

Not actually that important as a hacker (he is currently listed under "computer crimes") and his subsequent journalism career which he is actually more notable for itself doesn't seem to be enough to make the cut (he is simply a "contributing editor", and has been involved a few major/majorish cases mentioned but that's it)

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 16:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 15:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add John Barrowman or swap with Mike Farrell 5

Barrowman is a quite significant scottish actor and being LGBTQ he would help diversify the list. I offer a swap given that the list of entertainers is over the quota. I suggest Farrell as Barrowman has 12 more interwikis than him and Farrell only really has one significant role being MASH. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nominator. I also vote for the swap. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support swap Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ibn Muqla to Persian artists

Per Brittanica, this 9th century Persian calligrapher invented naskh (script), tawqi and thuluth, and was thrice vizier of the Abbasid Caliphate. starship .paint (RUN) 07:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

as nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Islam Makhachev 5

Good fighter but way too early to tell if he will be vital. He is only 32. Nothing on his article suggests any lasting vitality. He is overshadowed in almost every way by his trainer Khabib Nurmagomedov 5. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

as nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Recentism. starship .paint (RUN) 01:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Too many MMA personalities _pbp 07:00, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, he will become vital in a couple years. Just not now. 49p (talk) 07:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:26, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Discussion - standard for a V5 actor?

If I may suggest, we can establish a standard for V5 actors by naming actors that do meet this level of vitality, and comparing the rest of the entries on the list to this group. If the other entries are not on this level, they should be removed. I have listed 10 relatively modern English-speaking actors below, of various nationalities. How does everyone feel about this list? Do these 10 set a good enough standard? Is there any one of these 10 that are not on the others' level?

starship .paint (RUN) 01:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Iostn, OlifanofmrTennant, Makkool, Tabu Makiadi, and Aurangzebra: - who participated in an actors' discussion above. starship .paint (RUN) 01:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Starship.paint: I would swap Downey with someone else maybe George Clooney 5. I I think removals should happen and a standered set. This seems to be exclusively film actors and not stage or television. For stage Derek Jacobi 5 and maybe Michael Hordern 5?
I have made a list of TV actors
1. Neil Patrick Harris 5
2. Andy Griffith 5
3. Bryan Cranston 5
4. Mr. T 5
5. William Hartnell 5
6. George Takei 5
7. Ed Asner 5
8. James Hong 5
9. Kelsey Grammer 5
10. Peter Dinklage 5 or David Tennant 5
I think these 10 fit. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 05:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@OlifanofmrTennant: - I am not as familiar about TV or stage actors. I listed Downey as due to him possibly being the highest-grossing lead actor of all time. Though, Clooney is fine as well. Not sure about Takei though, surely he is outshined by Leonard Nimoy 5 or William Shatner 5? starship .paint (RUN) 07:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Starship.paint: Oh I didn't know the about Downey. I would be willing to swap Takei out for Nimoy or Shatner Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 15:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Starship.paint I generally like this list. However, I think I would remove Keanu Reeves and Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think the 'golden' standard list should include actors who are both popular in the mainstream and have won a substantial amount of acting awards over their career. Reeves and Schwarzenegger achieve the first criteria but not the second. I would possibly consider replacing them with Denzel Washington 5 or Samuel L. Jackson 5 (in fact, I would take both of them on this list over most of the current inclusions). Aurangzebra (talk) 02:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on Reeves and Schwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger has more prestigious awards as an bodybuilder than as an actor. So we could list him in athletes like Jet Li for martial arts. Reeves has been in popular movies, but he might not reach the acting acclaim criteria. Makkool (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say Schwarzenegger is still much more culturally influential as an actor than as a bodybuilder. A limitation of awards, no single proxy for vitality is infallible.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aurangzebra, Makkool, LaukkuTheGreit, and OlifanofmrTennant: - well, as a sidestep of an acting award, Schwarzenegger won an election to become Governor of California in 2003, having never held public office before, and having retired from bodybuilding in 1980. What led him to win is left as an exercise for the reader. starship .paint (RUN) 12:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But if we are looking for a gold standard to compare our actors to, wouldn't it not make sense to include him then? How would he compare him to other actors if we have to factor in his political career? Aurangzebra (talk) 16:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd feel better about these lists if the WHY accompanied the WHO. (Related, since I see William Hartnell and David Tennant listed, is playing Doctor Who a mark of VA5?) _pbp 02:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tennant has been pretty prolific outside of Doctor Who. I wasn’t completely sure for the tenth entry that’s why I listed two. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And another question: is the "standard" the MOST VITAL that didn't make VA4, or is it the MEDIAN vitality of VA5-not-VA4? 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC) _pbp 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89:, I'll explain my rational, I tried to create a diverse list.

Neil Patrick Harris was picked for How I Met Your Mother 5 as well as other shows, he has received serveral awards. He is openly gay and named one of times 100 Most Influential People in 2010.
Andy Griffith for the The Andy Griffith Show 5, he's in the Television Hall of Fame, a portion of US Highway 52 is dedicated to him.
Bryan Cranston, Malcolm in the Middle]] and Breaking Bad 5 he's receved extensive awards. In recent years he's done a lot of broadway acting,
Mr. T for The A-Team and his wrestling career, he had major role in Rocky 3. Possibly not as strong as the other entries.
William Hartnell for Doctor Who 5 and his other pretty long career.
George Takei for Star Trek 5. Takei is also a LGBT rights advicat being openly gay.

I can get too the others shortly would anyone like to propose any changes? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: - for my film actors list, my hope is that it would be the median of V5. A 'just below V4' list would not be useful. starship .paint (RUN) 12:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me consider this: the AFI list, the Kennedy Center Honors, and Academy Awards. Many of the people on the AFI list are VA4 and the ones that aren't are near the Top of VA5. Same deal with KCH. Academy Awards is kind of a mixed bag, because there doesn't seem to be a great correlation between winning an Academy Award in a particular year and being considered one of the greatest ever. That being said, probably the MEDIAN or average of a VA5-not-VA4 is one Academy Award. Daniel Day-Lewis has three lead actor awards, so I think he's ABOVE the median VA5-not-VA4 actor. _pbp* 16:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would sound better to me to compare to lists by outside experts just as these, rather than to make a top ten yardstick ourselves. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The right size?

I figure probably the right number of actors and actresses is somewhere between 300 and 400. So we have at least twice the actors and actresses as we should _pbp 19:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: It should presumably be split 50/50. 488 actors and 465 actresses. Both need to be cut by around half. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 01:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if it should be 50-50. At least, when I looked at contemporary actresses, I don't see them being as vital as the contemporary actors. I think actors have more career longevity? Anyway, drastic cuts are needed, and anyone like Jared Leto absolutely need to go. starship .paint (RUN) 15:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

300 would be 5 times the amount of actors and actresses in V4, which should be just the right amount. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Abdellatief Abouheif 5, Olga Brusnikina 5, and Anastasia Davydova 5

All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes 5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Hu Ronghua 5

Stub and only has 7 interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Lars Hall 5

Stub (as in three sentences) on here and on Swedish Wikipedia.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not every Olympic gold medalist is vital. Ping me if anything more substantial is found. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Branimir of Croatia to politicians

Father of medieval Croatia

Support

Remove Philip Farkas 5

Only five interwikis and no RYM page.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove The Great Lester 5

Stub. Only has three interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Guo Qiru 5, Hou Baolin 5, and Katsura Bunshi VI 5

I get the desire to be diverse, and the native versions of Hou's and especially Katsura's articles are in much better shape, but they each only have two to three interwikis.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Matt Mattox 5

Stub. Only has seven interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Hard to convince myself he is more notable than Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which isn't a VA. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:50, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Johann Christian Fischer 5

Do we really need an oboe player?

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

I think we do to be honest, and he's not crazy obscure. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

I think it seems very reasonable to have an oboe player, though I have no opinion on whether it should be this one. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some ballet dancers

I'm seeing a lot of stub-level ballet dancers with single digits interwikis.

Remove Anneli Alhanko

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Stub. Swedish article is a bit better, but that's only one out of eight interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Marie Allard

Already removed from a different discussion. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Stub. French article is not much better.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

I just discovered that there is already a discussion for her removal. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Claude Balon

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Same as above. (Also only have 6 interwikis.)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Fabritio Caroso

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Consists of only three paragraphs. Italian version is very marginally better, with one additional (single sentence) paragraph and four stanza length quote.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:17, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Fanny Cerrito 5

Same thing. Italian version is also very marginally better, this time with five additional paragraphs, although the average amount of sentences for all the paragraphs is about two to three.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Antonio Cornazzano

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just four paragraphs. He seems more important as a writer anyway, as evidenced by the fact that his Italian article doesn't even mention his career as a dancer.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Natalia Dudinskaya

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three paragraphs. Russian article is slightly longer, but every paragraph is pretty short.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Louis Dupré (dancer)

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Stub and six interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Violetta Elvin

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only has 5 interwikis and dear god is this article bare.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Pavel Gerdt

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three paragraphs. Russian article (which is just one out of nine interwikis) mostly consists of lists.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:10, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Geneviève Gosselin

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Four paragraphs. Three interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 16:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Marie Guy-Stéphan 5

Only seven interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove De Lafontaine 5

I understand the need for having the first female professional ballet dancer, but look at her article. Just two paragraphs and nine interwikis. We don't even know her first name.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Pauline Leroux 5

Four paragraphs. Three interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Liu Qingtang 5 and Xue Jinghua 5

We don't even have the Red Detachment of Women, so why do we have their stars? They only have one and two interwikis respectively.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom (support Liu, will review Xue another time) starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
support both Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

@User:Starship.paint: Just updated this to include Xue Jinghua. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:19, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Russell Maliphant 5

I think that note right there says it all about its quality. Also he only has three interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Guglielmo Ebreo da Pesaro 5

Only has eight interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Makkool (talk) 07:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Domenico da Piacenza 5

Just four paragraphs (which is one paragraph longer than the Italian version) and eight interwikis.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Françoise Prévost 5

Just four paragraphs (which is one paragraph longer than the Italian version) and nine interwikis.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Armand Vestris 5 and Auguste Vestris 5

I got to be honest, I'm not seeing anything that indicates that any of the Vestris are vital, including Gaétan Vestris, who has a healthy 23 interwikis. For now though, I'm just going to nominate Armand and Auguste, who only have 3 and 11 interwikis respectively.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Edward Villella 5

Only four interwikis.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sai Baba of Shirdi

This is the guy who Sathya Sai Baba 5 claims to be a reincarnation of. Seems like he was a very popular religious figure in India for both Hindus and Muslims (although note that it's not clear what religion he actually belonged to), his article is B-tier, he got 35 interwikis, and he's rated high-importance in a lot of WikiProjects.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Josef Gusikov 5

A while back, I moved the klezmer musicians from the non-European art music section to the popular music section. (I don't know why that genre got placed there either; I have never heard anyone refer klezmer as a form of art music.) This has resulted in Gusikov here being the only person listed under popular musicians to predate recorded music. By a couple of decades actually. Since he only has nine interwikis, I suggest we just remove him.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Rock Steady Crew 5 and Crazy Legs (dancer) 5

I hate to do this, because I have heard people consider the Rock Steady Crew and Crazy Legs in particular as being very important to the development of breakdancing. But the Rock Steady Crew is in piss poor shape and only has eight interwikis, while Crazy Legs (whose article is at least decent) only has four.

Support

Reluctantly. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Will there be someone to represent breakdance or hip hop dance, if we remove them? Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

British, Canadian and Australian television hosts removals

Above, I made nominations to address U.S. television host bloat but British, Canadian and Australian television host bloat is also pretty bad.

Remove Rove McManus

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only six interwikis. We don't need 14 Australasian TV personalities. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Kevin O'Leary

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only seven languages. Mostly known as a businessman who appeared on an ensemble show. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove George Stroumboulopoulos

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only eight interwikis. Not even on the level of Gene Rayburn, which we removed. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Clive Anderson

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The franchise Whose Line Is It Anyway? is possibly notable but I don't think Clive Anderson is. Only nine interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Melvyn Bragg

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only 10 interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Gay Byrne

FAILED

Not removed 2-2. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Hosted a show for a long time but it's far from the most notable of shows. Only seven interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He might be praised as being the most important television personality in Ireland, but at the end of the day he only has seven interwikis. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

"In 2010, The Irish Times said Byrne was "unquestionably the most influential radio and television man in the history of the Irish State"" - if we're trying to make TV hosts less US biased, then removing some of the most important figures from other countries seems antithetical to that. Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Remove Judith Chalmers

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only four interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Bill Grundy

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Stub with only four interwikis. The Sex Pistols might be VA5 but he isn't. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Only really notable for the Sex Pistols connection. Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Russell Harty

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just a single interwiki link and lede doesn't even mention any notable shows he hosted. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Charles Ingram

We already have John Carpenter from Who Wants to be A Millionaire _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal, or possibly move to criminals. Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need a gameshow contestant. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Ingram has both more pageviews and interwikis than John Carpenter (game show contestant) Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But he shouldn't be listed here with game show hosts. Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am open to removing Carpenter as well. _pbp 16:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Remove Pat Kenny

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only six interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Jeremy Kyle

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only eight interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove John McCririck

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only three interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove John Noakes

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only five interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Des O'Connor

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just nine interwikis. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Michael Parkinson

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Why? Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"the great British talkshow host" Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Remove Gerry Ryan

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Frank Skinner

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only five interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Alan Titchmarsh

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Only four interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Ryan Tubridy

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just one interwiki. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Denise Welch

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just six interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Alan Whicker

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just seven interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Richard Whiteley

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just two interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Paula Yates

Support

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Don Burke

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just two interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Denise Drysdale

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Bruce Gyngell

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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No interwiki links. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Kerri-Anne Kennerley

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just one interwiki. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Gretel Killeen

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just one interwiki. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Don Lane

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk)
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Ray Martin (television presenter)

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Eddie McGuire

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just three interwikis. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Bert Newton

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Less-notable sidekick of Graham Kennedy _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Daryl Somers

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Just a single interwiki link. _pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove some pre-modern scientists

I'm just going to make a giant block request for this one. The scientists I'm about to list either have single-digit interwikis, stubs, or both. NOTE: IW = interwikis, P=Paragraphs

Agathodaemon (alchemist) 5 (2IW and 3P)
Aglaonice 5 (3P)
Ahmes 5 (1P)
Callippus 5 (4P)
Cleopatra the Physician 5 (4IW and 4P)
Du Shi 5 (8IW)
Menaechmus 5 (6P)
Pandrosion 5 (5P)
Pingala 5 (4P)
Pseudo-Democritus 5 (3IW)
Tapputi 5 (3P)
Zhang Zhongjing 5 (6P)
Adelle of the Saracens 5 (3IW and 4P)
Anthemius of Tralles 5 (6P)
Dobrodeia of Kiev 5 (4P)
Ibn Sahl (mathematician) 5 (4P)
Al-ʻIjliyyah 5 (Throwing this in because almost all of the paragraphs consists of a single sentence.)
Jia Xian 5 (9IW and 3P)
Mahāvīra (mathematician) 5 (4P)
Qin Jiushao 5 (6P)
Yang Hui 5 (6P)
Zhu Shijie 5 (5P)

Support

Oppose

Keep Mahāvīra (mathematician) and Pingala at least. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all on principle. These kinds of block nominations completely lack nuance and end up making some wild assumptions based on very little. Take Aglaonice, for example; her article may be relatively short and underdeveloped, but she was one of the first astronomers documented to have learned the cycle of lunar eclipses, has 37 interwikis, and has had a species of moth and a crater of Venus named after her. But the nominator wants her removed because of article quality and no other assessment? --Grnrchst (talk) 14:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The more I look at it, the worse it gets. Menaechmus, who discovered conic sections and has 29 interwikis; Tapputi, who was one of the first recorded chemists and has 24 interwikis; Zhang Zhongjing, who contributed so much to his period's medical understanding that he is held to be a sage, 23 interwikis; Anthemius of Tralles, the architect of the Hagia Sophia(!!!) and has 39 interwikis. It is astounding that these are all lumped together in a block removal proposal for no other reason than their articles aren't very long... --Grnrchst (talk) 14:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above. We can't just remove biographies on the basis that they're short don't have interwikis. These articles should be based on the contribution of their respective discipline in the context of the time. The whole point of WP:VITAL isn't to document Wikipedia's best articles, but to highlight the ones which are significant in the context of history. Thus, only sound reasoning outlining specifically the contribution (or lack thereof) of each individual person should be all that is considered when removing or adding articles. I am opposed to this removal and I am opposed to this style of 'block nominations'. Idiosincrático (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

User:Grnrchst, User:Idiosincrático: OK, first off, you guys know you can easily just say "Keep so-and-so" right? Second, the entire purpose of this project is to find globally relevant articles and bring them to at least good article quality. So yes, I do think that article quality and the amount of interwikis are good indication to judge vitality. If an article have spent most of its existence of with only a handful of paragraphs, that indicates that it's not possible to improve it. If an article has only a handful of interwikis, that indicates that it's not globally relevant. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Leonid Brekhovskikh 5

Just five paragraphs (of which only three are actually paragraph-length) and four interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not even 100 pageviews in the past month Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tao Lin 5

We still have way too many authors from the U.S. and Canada, and this guy does not seem to have had any amount of influence.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 18:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove some world musicians

I hate to say this because we do need a more global array of people for this project, but I am coming across a lot of musicians with single digit interwikis. I am going to do a block request for each section and list the people I want removed along with the amount of interwikis they have.

Remove some non-Western art musicians

Turgun Alimatov 5 (3)
Min Huifen 5 (2)
Daihachi Oguchi 5 (3)
Yatsuhashi Kengyo 5 (5)
Muthiah Bhagavatar 5 (4)
Buhurizade Mustafa Itri 5 (2)
Tanburi Büyük Osman Bey (0; already being discussed)

K. P. H. Notoprojo  5 (5)

Michio Miyagi  5 (8)

Swathi Thirunal Rama Varma  5 (8)

Mei Baojiu  5 (6)

Farida Parveen  5 (6)

Faramarz Payvar  5 (5)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support all Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
remove unstruck per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Turgun Alimatov (only 116 views in the past month) and Min Huifen (96). Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose removing Muthiah Bhagavatar and Buhurizade Mustafa Itri. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Hesitant to remove some of these, but I think the intent is to cut Artists, musicians, and composers section down to quota Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some religious musicians

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn by nom. Makkool (talk) 11:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Support

~~#SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

I hereby withdraw this proposal. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Shlomo Carlebach ("the foremost Jewish religious songwriter of the 20th century") and Junoon ("Pakistan's and one of South Asia's most successful bands"), remove the rest. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Lord Kitchener (calypsonian) 5

Luckily for the Caribbean section, Kitchener is the only one with less than ten interwikis (4).

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Regardless of interwikis he is quite clearly influential in the development of calypso, and pageviews are far higher than many of the others being proposed here. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove the entire klezmer sectionSwap Dave Tarras with Giora Feidman

~~I'm already requesting the removal of Josef Gusikov 5, but the other two (Naftule Brandwein 5 and Dave Tarras 5) also have single digit interwikis (9 and 3 respectively).~~ On second thought, I am just going to nominate Tarras for removal. To keep Brandwein from being lonely, I am also going to advocate adding Giora Feidman. I think Fiedman the only klezmer musician with double-digit interwiki figures.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support swap Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

@User:Makkool, proposal has been changed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some non-English pop musicians

Gong Qiuxia  5 (9)

Teng Yu-hsien  5 (7)

Boudewijn de Groot  5 (8)

Irakli Charkviani  5 (7)

Kaveret  5 (9)

Vali Rácz  5 (6)

Abrar-ul-Haq  5 (8)

Narayan Gopal  5 (9)

Aruna Lama  5 (8)

Dewa 19  5 (8)

Didi Kempot  5 (9)

Koes Plus  5 (5)

Ichirō Fujiyama  5 (6)

Michiya Mihashi  5 (8)

Pink Lady (duo)  5 (9)

The Stalin  5 (7)

Ros Serey Sothea  5 (9)

Drunken Tiger  5 (8)

Shin Joong-hyun  5 (7)

Cartola  5 (9)

Lydia Mendoza  5 (6)

Menudo (group)  5 (5)

Felipe Pinglo Alva  5 (9)

Rodrigo (musician)  5 (7)

Vikingarna (band)  5 (8)

Eraserheads  5 (6)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep APO Hiking Society, Vital Signs and Azam Khan - remove the rest. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support removing Phyu Phyu Kyaw Thein (unclear if she is one of the most notable Burmese pop musicians), Muboraksho Mirzoshoyev and Sarantuya.

Oppose

Oppose removing Azam Khan, Vital Signs, Lee Mi-ja (Trot is an important older form of Korean pop music), Awie, W. D. Amaradeva and APO Hiking Society.

Discuss

Azam Khan was voted in only three months ago. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some African musicians

Ayinde Barrister  5 (6)

Diamond Platnumz  5 (9)

Eusèbe Jaojoby  5 (7)

Jua Cali  5 (5)

Mamady Keïta  5 (7)

Tunde King  5 (5)

Mahotella Queens  5 (8)

Thomas Mapfumo  5 (9)

Siti binti Saad  5 (9)

Tilahun Gessesse  5 (7)

Lourdes Van-Dúnem  5 (8)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support all. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
remove unstruck per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Mahmoud Guinia, Lady Jaydee, Daniel Owino Misiani and Wazimbo. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose removing Ayub Ogada and Le Grand Kallé. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

General comments

I really do not understand why this is being judged using interwikis as the sole metric for measuring vitality, not to mention that bloc nominations have been criticised many times before for being hard to implement on voting. Another massive problem with this is for the "African popular music" section, where you are using interwiki links to measure vitality while African languages are notorious for being underrepresented and thus automatically have a disadvantage if you are using those to measure vitality - as can be seen by the fact that the number of those nominated for removal equals half the entire articles listed in the section. As such I'm effectively opposing all of these proposals in the current state, at least until they are being looked at individually. Iostn (talk) 10:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I expressed concerns for this type of viewpoint on a different proposal on a different talk page. Per WP:SYSBIAS, it is proven that Wikipedia has a general bias against developing nations and leaves their articles generally less developed. This also applies to whether or not the articles exist on other language Wikipedias. Also speaking from that viewpoint, some of these proposals would leave Western musicians, an already messy session, vastly over-represented. I can get behind using interwikis for some proposals (it made sense for stuff like the television hosts), but it just doesn't make sense her per the SYSBIAS essay. λ NegativeMP1 16:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where have bloc nominations been criticised? I don't take a stand on systemic bias, but if we intend to make any progress in cutting the sections over-quota by over a hundred articles, we need to think of new ideas than having just individual nominations. Makkool (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can agree with you on that, as I do think massive cuts are needed, but my concern is more or less that we should be cautious, and interwikis may not be the best metric for 100% of nominations. λ NegativeMP1 18:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of country of origin, having 0 or 1 interwikis is a red flag. If you want to compensate for underrepresentation of Africans, maybe the rule of thumb should be 5 interwikis in the Third World and 10 in the First... _pbp 23:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Makkool, @Iostn, @User:NegativeMP1: After much thought, I decided to withdraw my nominations for mostly everyone with more than five interwikis due to the issues brought up (so just close my religious section request). I am also withdrawing my nominations for K. P. H. Notoprojo (he is probably the biggest name in gamelan), Faramarz Payvar (his Persian article kind of indicates he is a major Persian traditional musician), Koes Plus (six of their albums are on Rolling Stone Indonesia's 150 Greatest Indonesian Albums of All Time list), Menudo (one of the biggest boy bands), Jua Cali (represents genge), and Tunde King (founder of jùjú music). I'm still going to nominate those with less than five interwikis (that's still too small to be on here), along with Yatsuhashi Kengyo (stub), Awie (does not have at Rate Your Music page, although his previous band Wings does have one), Sarantuya (stub), Muboraksho Mirzoshoyev (does not have at Rate Your Music page), Christy Essien-Igbokwe (she was originally listed under the music industry figures for reasons I just can't find), and Ayub Ogada (I'm not seeing anything that makes him vital). SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've finally gone through and attempted to vote on these, but I think many of those that were withdrawn could've easily gone anyways, regardless of however many times the article has been translated. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Harry Glicken 5

Hate to remove a featured article, but he only has six interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
His mentor David A. Johnston 5 was much more vital than him. Makkool (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bruce C. Heezen 5

Stub. He did worked with Marie Tharp 5 and he does have a ship named after him, but I'm not sure if his article can be improved.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Low pageviews Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nicolas Appert

Known as the father of food science. Invented airtight food preservation, has 84 interwikis, and is the only person rated top-importance in the Food Wikiproject.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 06:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Solomon Linda

To make up for the drastic cuts I was proposing for the African music section, here's the original singer/writer for The Lion Sleeps Tonight 5.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Add Yoshiko Yamaguchi

She's the only Seven Great Singing Stars we don't have on here. I understand the unusual conditions regarding her, but she has the second highest amount of interwikis amongst the seven.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Kander and Ebb 5 with John Kander and Fred Ebb

Other than four other Wikipedias, no one has bothered to write a page on the songwriter pairing itself. Kander and Ebb themselves at least have 18 and 15 interwikis respectively, however.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Bryan brothers 5 with Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan

Same thing as above, although at least the article about this pair has at least nine interwikis. (Bob and Mike themselves have 36 and 34.) Admittedly, Kander and Ebb at least makes up for that for not treating the article on their pairing as the main one.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

They are known for their doubles career and not for their individual accomplishments. Aurangzebra (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Christian Samuel Weiss

Only three paragraphs.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tunka Manin

I hate to say this, but I think the Ghana Empire 5 is just going to have to be one of those countries where we don't list any of its leaders. Only three paragraphs and three interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:53, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove John Luther Long 5

Wrote one decently popular short story that inspired a few other works. I could maybe see including the story, although even that would be a stretch, but this guy has no reason to be on the list, especially when we have this many modern American/Canadian authors. Only 8 interwikis.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove KondZilla 5

I do want someone to represent funk carioca, and he does look like he has a pretty big YouTube career, but he only has four interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support swap with Brazilian funk. The Blue Rider 10:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Anangabhima Deva III 5 and Suhungmung 5

Both figures have only three interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:19, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 05:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Oppose

Remove Gyalsey Tenzin Rabgye 5

Stub. We also have Ngawang Namgyal 5 on here, who is probably the only Bhutanese figure we need for this period.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Low page views, and ruler of a country that to this day has a population of under a million Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Lakandula 5

Only four interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
~~Makkool (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

Oppose

Appears to be a significant pre-colonial ruler who is still commemorated today in the Philippines in the present day, interwikis are not a great way of measuring vitality for something as underrepresnted as pre-colonial historical figures in the Global South Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Dua Lipa 5

For basically the exact same reasons as why I proposed Billie Eilish for removal from this list. Beyond some listings from blogs, a few awards, wax statues and an increase in rates of babies named after her (how the hell are these considered "legacy" / "impact"??), she's had no proven long term impact on the music industry yet and her career only spans a decade. This listing is blatant WP:RECENTISM in a section currently over quota. Same as with Billie, if this impact changes in the future, we can always revisit.

Support

As nom. λ NegativeMP1 01:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

PBP popular music cuts

Remove Joan Armatrading

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't see anything at all to indicate vitality. No Grammies, no #1 single or album, nothing.

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think she was just put on here to fill up the Caribbean section, which as I mentioned when I moved her to the general pop section, she did not fit beyond being born there. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Al Bowlly

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maybe it's because his article's poorly written, but I'm not seeing enough evidence that he's VA5. Only 11 interwikis which is underwhelming for a pop figure. _pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think he's the biggest name in British dance band? But yeah, just remove him. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove The Shirelles 5

Doesn't have the acclaim of some of the other groups on here. _pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discussion

On the one hand, they recorded "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" and "Tonight's the Night". On the other hand, they were not as big as The Supremes or as critically loved as The Ronettes. Neutral overall. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove The Wiggles 5

FAILED

Not removed 1-3. Makkool (talk) 13:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Very little chart success in Australia and almost none outside of it. _pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

The article demonstates their influence well. Children's music is a genre where vitality doesn't translate well to chart success. We should also list some other children's music artist besides Alvin and the Chipmunks. Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per Makkool. If we're judging solely within the context of children's music, they're the biggest act of all time. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Francis II of France

Only ruled for one year. Was basically just a pawn for his mother.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

US actors removals

These were suggested above in the Casey Affleck / Jared Leto proposal, which just passed. I'll open them up for discussion, where we could also test the criteria to include an actor in V5. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Rami Malek 5

Could he be too recent new actor where it's not clear if his career will be vital? He's an Academy Award winner though.

Support

I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Forest Whitaker 5

An esteemed character actor, whose also an Academy Award winner. Although most of his acclaim is from a role in one specific film, The Last King of Scotland.

Support

I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

He's a prominent black actor. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Zac Efron

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Star of a hit franchise, High School Musical, and now has a career doing character roles. No major awards.

Support

No basis for vitality Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is High School Musical even vital? SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 02:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Chris Cooper

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Another esteemed character actor, who's an Academy Award winner.

Support

I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As the person who first brought this up Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove James Franco 5

Golden Globe winner, but his career seems to have petered out because of sexual misconduct allegations.

Support

Only an Academy Award nomination. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 02:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Seth Rogen 5

FAILED

Not removed 2-2. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Golden Globe nominations. Has starred in popular comedies, but it might be too early to say anything about his legacy in film comedy.

Support

Support for now Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

He is way too big to be removed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Lady Jane Grey

Unlike Empress Matilda, whose claim to the throne lasted for years, Grey's claim to the throne only lasted for nine days.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove some British Prime Ministers

These PMs only had the position for about a year or so.

Remove Spencer Compton, 1st Earl of Wilmington

Only about seventeen months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:02, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove William Cavendish, 4th Duke of Devonshire

Only seven months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove John Stuart, 3rd Earl of Bute

Only about eleven months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:39, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham

Only has an accumulated tenure of fifteen months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Augustus FitzRoy, 3rd Duke of Grafton

Only about fifteen months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove William Petty, 2nd Earl of Shelburne

Only about eight months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Abdel Fattah al-Burhan

Head of state of Sudan since 2019. Leads the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) against the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in the ongoing War in Sudan. He also botched the Sudanese transition to democracy.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Joseph Kasa-Vubu

First President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (from only five today), serving from 1960 to 1965. His tensions with Patrice Lumumba 5 were one of the causes of the Congo Crisis 5. Also, the DRC has 105 million people and only 4 politicians.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Friedrich Ebert

He is sometimes viewed as the world’s first social democratic head of state and one of the only three “real” Presidents of Germany from 1918 to 1945. His legacy is complex and controversial, particularly concerning the crises that led to Hitler's rise to power.

Support

As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Georgi Plekhanov

Known as “the father of Russian Marxism”, he was undeniably an immense influence on the Bolsheviks, who gave him the rare distinction of admiring him despite his misgivings towards them.

Support

As nominator. To revolutionaries. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sylvia Pankhurst

Arguably a more effective activist than her mother, Emmeline Pankhurst 5, her work was characterized by a commitment to what we would today call intersectionality. Focusing on class and gender, she was one of the leading European figures for decolonization and was active on three continents.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Surprised there isn't an article on the Pankhurst family Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The pre-eminent figure of the early British communist movement and very influential in soliciting allied support for Ethiopia. 34 interwikis, averages 245 page views per day. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nadezhda Krupskaya

Russian revolutionary who played an important role in the October Revolution 5 and as an architect of the early Soviet system, particularly education and women’s rights.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sophus Lie

Norwegian mathematician best known for his contributions to Lie algebra 5s and Lie group 5s, named after him.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 16:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Honoré I, Lord of Monaco

There's been rumbling around here regarding the ratio of the population of a country and the amount of leaders that we made vital. I should note that Monaco has nine people on here despite having a population of less than 40k. I'm going to nominate this guy; I'm just not seeing anything that would make him vital.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Adrian Lamo 5

Other than exposing Chelsea Manning 5, I cant really think of a reason to keep him here. He hacked a bunch of high-profile companies, but I don't think that enough to make him vital.

Support

49p (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tron (hacker) 5

Other than maybe his naming controversy, I don't think he's vital. We have too many phreakers in this list. I don't think he's the notable levels of John Draper 5 and I never heard of his name.

Support

49p (talk) 17:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Weezer

Not sure why these guys arent listed? Weezer (Blue Album) and Pinkerton (album) are considered to one of the greatest album of 1990s. Not to mention, but Pinkerton (album) is extremely known to be influential in Emo 5 and Alternative rock 5. I even think Pinkerton is possibly enough on its own to be vital. I guess these guys are ignored because popularity ≠ vitality, but I think they have a chance here.

Support

49p (talk) 17:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I could also see a case for Pinkerton being vital, since it alone seems to have been decently influential, has a lot of post-release acclaim, and a perfect 100 on Metacritic. λ NegativeMP1 02:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Bad Brains

Known for influencing Foo Fighters 5, Beastie Boys 5, Rage Against the Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers 5 etc. Known for combining Reggae 5 with Hardcore punk 5 and Alternative metal. It is also known for being a Rastafari 5 band, and one of the earliest Hardcore punk 5 pioneers.

Support

49p (talk) 06:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Not a well-known band and some of the bands they've influenced are likely to also be removed _pbp 13:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by well-known? Do you mean mainstream? Sure, but there's a bunch of bands we list that aren't really "mainstream", but defining for the genre. For bands they've influenced, I guess you're right here. However, there's pretty clear bands that are definitely vital like Guns N' Roses 5 or Nirvana (band) 5, so the claim isn't really lost.

I think Bad Brains are vital in the same reason on why we list Black Flag (band) 5, Minor Threat 5, or Dead Kennedys 5. Is there something that I'm missing to why they aren't vital? 49p (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Musicians and bands is very bloated right now and the bands that didn't achieve long-term success or have many chart-topping hits are either not going to be removed or not going to be added in the first place _pbp 13:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Agüeybaná II and Cunhambebe

Both only have three interwikis. Wish I can think of another historical native Brazilian leader to replace the latter, but I can't. The Taíno still have Hatuey 5 though.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

We should probably have more Native American leaders, not fewer _pbp 13:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Edmund Andros

Think we can have one more colonial American administrator. Rated high-importance on a lot of WikiProjects, he was the Governor of New York for nine years, the Governor of Virginia for almost six years, and the Governor of Maryland for a couple of months. But what makes him vital in my opinion is his role as the Royal Governor of the Dominion of New England, where he pissed off everyone so much that he was immediately overthrown once word of the Glorious Revolution reach the colonies.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

I'm 50/50 on this one. Were I listing American colonial figures close to VA5 but not there (call it VA5.5 if you will), Andros is one of the omissions; so are the Calverts, James Oglethorpe and Peter Stuyvesant (the latter an interesting one because a) New York is currently the largest of the 13 former colonies, and b) Stuyvesant would be the only non-British colonial figure on the list.) This also seems to fly somewhat in the face of when, earlier this year, we removed quite a few Usonian American politicians, some of whom have as good or better claim to this spot. Those removals would also suggest against a consensus for more Usonian _pbp 03:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Willie O'Ree

First black National Hockey League player. Although not the first person of color in the NHL, O'Ree is widely regarded as the "Jackie Robinson of hockey".

Would be added to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures#Wingers.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Keir Starmer

New UK prime minister.

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

If he lasts into 2025... _pbp 01:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Vito Volterra

Regarded as a founder of Functional analysis 5. Known for multiple equations, including Lotka–Volterra equations 5.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 02:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Leah Keshet with D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson

Thompson is far more notable under the topic of mathematical and theoretical biology. Well known for On Growth and Form, his work has influenced incredibly notable academics including Alan Turing 3, Claude Lévi-Strauss 5, Le Corbusier 5, and Ludwig Mies van der Rohe 5.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 03:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Florence La Badie with Rachel McAdams

Plenty of more notable Canadian actresses. Proposing a swap with Rachel McAdams so that a modern Canadian actress can be added, which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have yet.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 03:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support remove for now Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Elliot Page

Although Page has not won an Academy Award/BAFTA like some other actors listed, Page is unarguably one of the most notable transgender actors and beats plenty of other listed actors in terms of notability.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 04:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I am tentatively here because I feel that he hasn't done a huge amount since publicly coming out in 2020. Most of his success was when he was not yet publicly transgender. starship .paint (RUN) 14:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per starship.paint. I can see him becoming VA5 at some point but not just yet. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Gosamaru

Barely a start article. Only three interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Peter Mansbridge

Broadcast journalists and commentators is pretty American/Australian-centric at the moment, with most of the 80 articles listed being from either of the two countries. There currently isn't a Canadian/Canadian-based broadcast journalist in this category and I feel that Mansbridge is probably the most notable of them. To justify the lack of interwikis, many other journalists currently listed in this category also don't have much interwikis either.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 16:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Long career at the head of a major network, lots of awards, and the article is rated High-Importance by WikiProject Canada. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Stephen Rodefer 5

One interwiki.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 17:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 18:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No indication of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Johnny Sins

Zero explanation needed.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 17:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seemingly very popular and prolific. 40 interwikis. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Ned Brooks 5

Only listed as the second-longest tenured moderator of Meet the Press. That claim is unsourced, the longest tenured presenter is also only VA5, and this man does not seem to have had an influence on anything.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Roger Williams (soldier)

Only one interwiki.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does not seem important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Noël Jourda de Vaux

Only four interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:42, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove John Kennedy Toole 5

We still have way too many modern American/Canadian writers (currently over 280) and this guy is seemingly one of the least important people still listed. Not every Pulitzer Prize in Fiction winner is vital (we already do not list all of them) and this guy has little else going for him. Two obscure books, published posthumously, with minimal influence. There are plenty of topics and people that I would rather list.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose. I consider A Confederacy of Dunces 5 to be a classic (and it seems like other editors agree by including it on VA5). It is listed as the 227th greatest book of all time on the aggregator site Greatest Books [1]. We include plenty of other "one-hit wonder" authors (off a quick glance, examples include Alex Haley 5 and Kate Chopin 5) so I think it's fair we include the author of one of the staples of Southern literature. If we want to remove some authors from this list, there are so many better contenders e.g. Tucker Max 5 whose work has aged incredibly poorly and Andrew Neiderman 5 whose two novels with Wikipedia articles have 0 interwikis. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aurangzebra: With Haley and Chopin, they each have several stories with articles. Toole only has two. They also have significantly more recognition and awards than Toole, who only received one award. For this situation, especially considering the fact that the book was published posthumously and the fact that writers in general is well over the quota, I think it would be fine to list the book without also listing the author. BTW, thanks for the suggestion for Neiderman, I nominated him for removal below. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair opinion. I don't think I'll change my vote mainly because I feel like it doesn't make sense to a list a novel in VA5 and not also include its author but I do respect the reasoning behind the counterpoints. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Film scholar additions

There is under-representation in art historians of scholars and historians focusing on film. I feel these could be essential names to list, to have more balance between different art forms in that section.

It is worth noting that it may seem like film scholars are under-represented simply because film theory as an independent field is a relatively novel concept but there are many prominent film scholars we list whose primary contributions are in other domains e.g. François Truffaut 5 who was foremost a director and Gilles Deleuze 5 who was primarily a philosopher. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's correct. We also already list Sergei Eisenstein 5 and André Bazin 5 who are prominent, and the latter is represented in the art historians and critics section. I think with the space we have, we can list some more. Makkool (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add David Bordwell

His book Film Art "is still used as a seminal text in introductory film courses". 14 interwikis.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Going to reserve judgment on this one but it's worth noting that we don't include seminal textbook authors in other more noteworthy fields. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
His article also mentions that he has written "influential articles on theory, narrative, and style". He seems to be an important figure in academic film studies, at least in North America. Don't know if his scholarship is read in Europe for example. Makkool (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Laura Mulvey

Pioneering feminist film analyst. "Helped shift the orientation of film theory towards a psychoanalytic framework" and introduced the concept of "male gaze".

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Vito Russo

Queer film theorist and author of The Celluloid Closet, "'an essential reference book' on homosexuality in the US film industry".

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Manthia Diawara

African film scholar who "contributed significantly to the study of black film".

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add IShowSpeed

Undoubtedly the most popular 2020s internet live streamer. Has a whopping 82 interwikis, even more than other significant YouTube/internet personalities like MrBeast 5 and PewDiePie 5.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 19:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A bit recent, but he is the most famous and prominent streamer of this decade so far. We can remove him later if he's overtaken or fades into obscurity, but at present he's an obvious addition IMO and would be one of the best picks for expanding the internet personalities section. λ NegativeMP1 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Who? This decade has 4 years, so not that impressive of a feat if that statement is even true. The Blue Rider 21:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We list other internet personalities like Jeffree Star 5, who are objectively far less notable. Just because you personally don't know this person doesn't make them any less notable. B3251_(talk) 22:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two wrongs don't make a right, Jeffree Star should be removed. This YouTuber is a fad; plus being popular alone isn't a strong enough reason for inclusion, it needs to have some sort of impact. Also, that sentence can very well be reversed, just because you know him doesn't make him any more vital; if you go ask the average person who this YouTuber is they will look at you clueless. The Blue Rider 22:47, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I do know Speed and I am aware of his popularity but he has not done anything to demonstrate his longevity just yet nor has he been particularly influential to mainstream culture. I don't agree with the sentiment that we should add him now and remove him if he fades into obscurity because streamer longevity is notoriously hard to achieve. Take Adin Ross for example: at his peak, he was extremely popular and was regularly doing streams with big name celebrities; now, he barely makes a blip on the radar. We also don't follow this pattern in other categories where it would make a lot more sense e.g. we don't automatically add the soccer player who wins the Ballon d'Or even though they have more cultural and global influence and cross-generational appeal than streamers do. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we must include more Internet personalities, I would rather have Kai Cenat who is the most-subscribed Twitch streamer of all time, won the 2023 and 2024 Streamer of the Year awards, and popularized the terms rizz and gyat whose use has spread outside of the streamer-sphere. Fwiw, I would also support removing Jeffree Star. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:48, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would also support adding Kai Cenat. Not many streamers have accidentally started a riot. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Visual artists and musicians removal

Remove Horiyoshi III 5

Japanese tattoo artist. Made more sense when we had internal quotas, but his recognition seems regional at most.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Lev Borodulin 5

Russian and Israeli sports photographer. His article does not assert much vitality, and the Russian version is quite short too.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Elizabeth Zimmermann 5

British-born hand-knitting teacher and designer. Relatively obscure figure. Only 2 interwikis.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Sailor Jerry 5

Another tattoo artist who probably doesn’t make the cut with the internal quotas gone.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Robert Trent Jones 5

Golf course designer. I struggle to think he is among the 120 or so most important architects.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Nico 5

I appreciate the uniqueness of her discography, but she was never very successful, critically or commercially, and accusations of racism have tarnished her cult status. Falls a little short of other 1970s folk-rock artists we don’t have, like Jackson Browne, Randy Newman, and Bob Seger, and is included within the The Velvet Underground & Nico 5 article.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
04:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Daniel O'Donnell 5

Irish country singer. Stands out for his chart consistency, but not much else.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 19:11, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Barry Manilow 5

We have excluded several musicians due to their lack of commercial success despite some critical recognition and influence. But what about the opposite? Let’s test this on someone whose lede admits he was “not a favorite artist of music critics”.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

His commercial success and popularity has been world-wide, and not limited to his country of origin. We shouldn't only list critical darlings. Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Journey (band) 5

Similar to the above. Possible classic rock bias.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I agree that there is likely a bias towards classic rock, but I say this one crosses the bar based on the impact of Don't Stop Believin', which has been inducted into the National Recording Registry for being culturally significant, and is also the best selling song digitally from the twentieth century in the United States. Similar bands from this time like Foreigner (band) 5, on the other hand, should be more likely candidates to be removed since they took way longer to get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, have sold way less certified units than Journey, and don't have a song that even the government considers important. λ NegativeMP1 04:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. A popular artist on several continents, Europe and Asia too and not just North America. Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Vanilla Ice 5

Similar to the above. Today, he is largely a one-hit wonder, and the claim that he introduced the genre to White audiences has been exaggerated, given that the Beastie Boys went platinum in the 1980s.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Andrew Neiderman 5

We have too many recent American authors, and this article does not show any evidence of vitality other than a couple minor film adaptations. Only two of his books even have articles, and neither of those articles have any interwikis.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 13:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 14:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Giannalberto Bendazzi 5

I looked through the "art historians and critics" section and there are currently listed six film historians or theorists. Of them, three are animation historians. If you'd also think that's excessive, we could cut at least one of them. Bendazzi's recognition seems to come from one book Cartoons − 100 Years of Cinema Animation, which "has been considered the definitive work on the subject for animation students and scholars." Jerry Beck 5 and John Canemaker 5 seem to have had a much more broad output and could be considered more vital than Bendazzi.

Support

Makkool (talk) 13:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 14:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems also less vital than the not-listed Michael Barrier. I've heard of Barrier, Beck and Canemaker but not of Bendazzi (who also has the fewest pageviews, at ~3 a day).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 20:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Bill Monroe (journalist) 5

Above, I nominated Ned Brooks 5 because all he had going for him was being moderator of Meet the Press for a long time. This guy had an even shorter tenure and similarly has no other reason to be on the list. Only 5 interwikis.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Jeffree Star 5

Removal was suggested above.

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:02, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Obscure figure with almost zero impact on society. The Blue Rider 13:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Freddy Schuman 5

Seems like a cool guy, but that doesn't make him vital, zero interwikis. I don't think being a "superfan" of something would ever be enough on its own to warrant being here.

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 03:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. The Blue Rider 13:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not vital Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:54, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add System of a Down

Surprised they aren't listed, probably one of the most well known and influential metal bands of the 2000s. Their album Toxicity was a major hit, especially the lead single "Chop Suey". They've also had numerous other popular songs across their other albums. Certainly they are a lot bigger and more well known than some of the other acts listed at this level. Maykii (talk) 02:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

as nom. Maykii (talk) 02:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

_pbp 03:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need a more convincing rationale to demonstrate how these guys are V5 worthy, a level that should only have the few hundred most important musicians and bands. Them being "a lot bigger and more well known than some of the other acts listed at this level" really doesn't mean anything when a lot of those acts are probably subject to removal themselves. I don't even see how these guys are more important than the recently removed Bring Me The Horizon. λ NegativeMP1 04:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per NegativeMP1. There are too many popular musicians and we can only really list the really elite ones. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Mary Anning

“She became known internationally for her discoveries in Jurassic marine fossil beds in the cliffs along the English Channel at Lyme Regis in the county of Dorset, Southwest England. Anning's findings contributed to changes in scientific thinking about prehistoric life and the history of the Earth.”

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Marguerite Perey

French physicist best known for her discovery of Francium 5.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Maria Margarethe Kirch

German astronomer who is regarded as one of the most prolific women scientists of the 18th century.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:0, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nettie Stevens

American geneticist credited with discovering sex chromosomes.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Robert Altman

The amount of American directors is admittedly a little too high, and there are probably a few names we could take out. That said, Robert Altman should definitely be added, he's a hugely influential director whose films often show up on "greatest movies" lists, none of which are also vital at this level.

Support

as nominator. The helper5667
Support. 5 films in the top 1000 films of all time and 49th in the list of greatest directors of all time according to the critical aggregator TSPDT [2] ahead of other notable American directors we do list such as Terrence Malick 5, Quentin Tarantino 5, and the Coen brothers 5. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jeff Kinney

I know there's been a push to remove American authors but he is the author of the 4th best-selling book series of all time, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, and we list the other 4 authors in the top 5 (J. K. Rowling 5, R. L. Stine 5, Erle Stanley Gardner 5, and Stan and Jan Berenstain 5). Diary of a Wimpy Kid has spawned a media empire complete with live-action and animated films, video games, and even a musical and the books have been republished in 56 languages across 65 different editions. He has 41 interwikis and the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series has 37.

If we do need to remove someone, I've noticed that we list a decent amount of authors who are also famous for some book series that spawned a large empire but to a lesser extent than Diary of a Wimpy Kid. For example, we list Jeff Lindsay 5 who is famous for the Dexter book series that was developed into the much more famous TV show of the same name. Seems like Kinney beats this guy on every metric: more interwikis (41 vs 28), more notability for the authored book series (I bet you that most people don't even know Dexter (TV series) originated from a book series), and more book copies sold. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suport

as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom 49p (talk) 13:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
support per nom., but should we list him with illustrators or writers? Maurice Sendak 5 is currently with writers, but I'm thinking they could be either way considered to be vital for illustrating or writing. Makkool (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I personally have no strong preference but I slightly lean authors since Diary of a Wimpy Kid is a bit more verbose than straightforward illustrated books like Where the Wild Things Are. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think they are categorized as chapter books in book stores and libraries. I'll go ahead and move Sendak to illustrators. Wilhelm Busch 5 is already there, and he's another author whose works have greater emphasis on pictures. Makkool (talk) 21:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

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