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This page was proposed for deletion by Maylingoed (talk · contribs) on 29 December 2023 with the comment:
Duplication of Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel - (CSD A10).
It was contested by Isabelle Belato (talk · contribs) on 29 December 2023 with the comment:
Content is significantly different; Seems to be a WP:POVFORK

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Not moved, 13 January 2024, from Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza to Allegations of genocide by Israel in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, see discussion.
Not moved, 29 February 2024, from Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza to Attempted genocide by Israel in their 2023 attack on Gaza, see discussion.
Moved, 3 May 2024, from Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza to Gaza genocide, see discussion.

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Section sizes

Section size for Gaza genocide (47 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	29,216	29,216
Background	6,325	10,257
Legal definition of genocide	2,274	2,274
Other definitions of genocide	1,658	1,658
Victims	915	13,916
Direct victims	7,964	7,964
Indirect victims	5,037	5,037
Genocidal intent and genocidal rhetoric	10,663	36,983
Israeli cabinet ministers	10,927	10,927
Israeli president and members of Israeli parliament	722	722
Invocations of Amalek	5,652	5,652
Other Israeli officials	4,123	4,123
Other evidence of genocidal intent	4,896	4,896
Alleged genocidal actions	43,456	43,456
Academic and legal discourse	357	27,221
Holocaust and genocide studies	10,699	10,699
Middle Eastern studies	6,364	6,364
International law scholars	5,190	5,190
Others	4,611	4,611
Statements by political organisations and governments	60	58,107
World leaders and governments	36,785	36,785
Civil servants and elected representatives	6,486	6,486
NGOs and intergovernmental organisations	14,776	14,776
Legal proceedings	176	60,775
International Criminal Court	4,483	4,483
U.S. Center for Constitutional Rights lawsuit	5,137	5,137
International Court of Justice application	40,229	44,550
Israeli response	4,321	4,321
ICJ ruling	482	482
Occupation proceedings	1,311	1,311
German lawsuit	1,550	1,550
Nicaragua v. Germany	1,479	1,479
Australian legal proceedings	1,607	1,607
International complicity	5,412	50,418
American complicity	6,634	29,287
Rhetoric from U.S. politicians	22,653	22,653
British complicity	6,970	6,970
German complicity	4,749	4,749
Romanian complicity	4,000	4,000
Cultural discourse	11,895	20,924
Media discourse	9,029	9,029
See also	401	401
Footnotes	30	30
References	30	28,269
Works cited	28,239	28,239
Further reading	6,775	6,775
External links	1,088	1,088
Total	387,836	387,836

Scholarly and expert opinions (to be extended)

Scholarly and expert opinions

Sources
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Name	Month	Profession	Source	(English or autotranslated and verified) example statement	Notes
Segal	October 2023	Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies	Jewish Currents	"A Textbook Case of Genocide"	Already in article
Genocide Watch	October 2023	Antigenocide NGO	Genocide Watch	"This settler ideology is supported by Likud, the party of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is committed to further settlement expansion. Like the American ideology of "manifest destiny," this settler ideology is used to justify forced displacement of Palestinians who have lived in the occupied territories for thousands of years.", "Dehumanization of the enemy is common in wars and genocides. It is already evident in this war, with Hamas militants spitting on and mutilating bodies of their victims and the Israeli Defence Minister calling Hamas "human animals." Dehumanization is a stage of genocide.", "Genocide Watch considers the war in Israel and Gaza to be at Stage 3: Discrimination, Stage 4: Dehumanization, Stage 5: Organization, Stage 6: Polarization, Stage 8: Persecution, and Stage 9: Extermination."	Already in article
Fassin	October 2023	Anthropologist and sociologist	Le Monde	"La directrice exécutive de Jewish Voice for Peace a lancé un vibrant « plaidoyer juif », appelant à « se dresser contre l'acte de génocide d'Israël ». Couper l'eau, l'électricité et le gaz, interrompre l'approvisionnement en nourriture et envoyer des missiles sur les marchés où les habitants tentent de se ravitailler, bombarder des ambulances et des hôpitaux déjà privés de tout ce qui leur permet de fonctionner, tuer des médecins et leur famille : la conjonction du siège total, des frappes aériennes et bientôt des troupes au sol condamne à mort un très grand nombre de civils – par les armes, la faim et la soif, le défaut de soins aux malades et aux blessés." [The executive director of Jewish Voice for Peace has issued a vibrant "Jewish plea," calling for "standing up against Israel's act of genocide." Cutting off water, electricity and gas, interrupting food supplies and sending missiles into markets where residents are trying to get supplies, bombing ambulances and hospitals already deprived of everything that allows them to function, killing doctors and their families: the combination of total siege, airstrikes and soon ground troops is condemning a very large number of civilians to death – by weapons, hunger and thirst, and the failure to care for the sick and wounded.], "Du premier génocide du XXe siècle, celui des Herero, en 1904, mené par l'armée allemande en Afrique australe, qui, selon les estimations, a provoqué 100 000 morts de déshydratation et de dénutrition, au génocide des juifs d'Europe et à celui des Tutsi, la non-reconnaissance de la qualité d'êtres humains à ceux qu'on veut éliminer et leur assimilation à des animaux a été le prélude aux pires violences." [From the first genocide of the 20th century, that of the Herero in 1904, carried out by the German army in southern Africa, which, according to estimates, caused 100,000 deaths from dehydration and malnutrition, to the genocide of the Jews of Europe and that of the Tutsi, the non-recognition of the quality of human beings of those who are to be eliminated and their assimilation to animals has been the prelude to the worst violence.]
Illouz	October 2023	Professor of sociology	Le Monde	"military response … against an enemy which has violated borders and international law, … is not genocide"	No longer in Article
Kittel	October 2023	History Professor	Berliner Zeitung	No, Israel's military response is not genocide – regardless of whether one uses narrower or broader definitions of the term.
800 scholars	October 2023	Various scholars, most of whom in relevant fields.	TWAILR journal website	"we are compelled to sound the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.", "Language used by Israeli political and military figures appears to reproduce rhetoric and tropes associated with genocide and incitement to genocide.", "Evidence of incitement to genocide has also been present in Israeli public discourse."	Already in article Signatories include Mohamed Adhikari and Taner Akçam
Center for Constitutional Rights	October 2023	legal advocacy organization	The Intercept	"Katherine Gallagher, senior attorney with CCR and a legal representative for victims in the pending ICC investigation in Palestine, told The Intercept. "U.S. officials can be held responsible for their failure to prevent Israel's unfolding genocide, as well as for their complicity, by encouraging it and materially supporting it.""	Already in article; There is then also the CCR's full 44-page briefing declaring it genocide and naming the US as a complicit party (not in article).
UN Special Rapporteurs	October 2023	Special Rapporteur on the human rights to safe drinking water and sanitation, Special Rapporteur on Violence against women and girls, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory, Special Rapporteur on the human rights of internally displaced persons, Special Rapporteur on the right to food, Special Rapporteur on the right of everyone to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, Special Rapporteur on the right to adequate housing, Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance	OHCHR	""We are sounding the alarm: There is an ongoing campaign by Israel resulting in crimes against humanity in Gaza. Considering statements made by Israeli political leaders and their allies, accompanied by military action in Gaza and escalation of arrests and killing in the West Bank, there is also a risk of genocide against the Palestinian People," the experts said."
Mokhiber	October 2023	Specialist in international human rights law, policy, and methodology	The New Republic	"A director of the United Nations High Commissioner of Human Rights has resigned, issuing a lengthy letter condemning the organization, the U.S., and Western media companies for their positions on the war between Israel and Hamas, which he described as a "text-book case of genocide."", ""Once again, we are seeing a genocide unfolding before our eyes, and the Organization that we serve appears powerless to stop it," wrote Craig Mokhiber, the group's New York office director, who had worked with the U.N. for more than three decades.""
100 civil rights organisations and 6 scholars	October 2023	Scholars: Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Historian, specialising in Jewish History, Anatomical Pathology Technologist (part of Forensic Team at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia), Professor of Human Rights and Environmental Justice, Historian and Sociologist, Anthropologist specialising in Human Rights and Genocide	Al Mezan Center for Human Rights	"clear intent to commit war crimes, crimes against humanity and incitement to commit genocide, using dehumanizing language to describe Palestinians."
Dana	October 2023	Professor of Conflict and Humanitarian Studies	The New Arab	"As the Israeli genocide in Gaza unfolds", "Western governments have blindly provided material and vocal support to the Israeli genocide", "Israel's ongoing genocide in Gaza serves as a tacit admission of Israel's fragility".
Berenbaum & Zavadivker	November 2023	Historians and Holocaust scholars: 1; 2	Jerusalem Post	"Israel has no greater ambition than to coexist with the Palestinians as peaceful neighbors; [The genocide claims] "threaten future attempts to identify, prevent, and prosecute that crime. It is equally damaging to the legitimacy of Holocaust and Genocide Studies as a field when such false claims are presented in the guise of scholarly expertise.""
Fassin	November 2023	Anthropologist and sociologist	AOC	"Didier Fassin joue un rôle de lanceur d’alerte lorsqu'il écrit le 1er novembre 2023 : « Alors que la plupart des gouvernements occidentaux continuent de dire "le droit d'Israël à se défendre" sans y mettre de réserves autres que rhétoriques et sans même imaginer un droit semblable pour les Palestiniens, il y a en effet une responsabilité historique à prévenir ce qui pourrait devenir le premier génocide du XXIe siècle. »" [Didier Fassin plays the role of whistleblower when he writes on November 1, 2023: "While most Western governments continue to say "Israel's right to defend itself" without any reservations other than rhetorical ones and without even imagining a similar right for the Palestinians, there is indeed a historical responsibility to prevent what could become the first genocide of the 21st century."]
Jürgen Habermas, Klaus Günther, Rainer Forst & Nicole Deitelhoff	November 2023	Philosopher and Social Theorist; Professor of Law; Philosopher; Political Scientist	Site of "Normative Orders" Research Center at Goethe University Frankfurt	"The Hamas massacre with the declared intention of eliminating Jewish life in general has prompted Israel to strike back. How this retaliation, which is justified in principle, is carried out is the subject of controversial debate; principles of proportionality, the prevention of civilian casualties and the waging of a war with the prospect of future peace must be the guiding principles. Despite all the concern for the fate of the Palestinian population, however, the standards of judgement slip completely when genocidal intentions are attributed to Israel's actions."
Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor	November 2023	Human rights NGO	Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor	"Euro-Med Monitor renewed its calls on all countries across the world to take decisive action to end the Israeli genocide against the people of the Gaza Strip, citing their legal obligations to stop this horrifying crime against humanity."
Adel & Gallagher	November 2023	International lawyer and PhD researcher; Staff attorney at the CCR	Al Jazeera	"What is happening in Gaza fits the definition of genocide.", "To understand what is transpiring in Gaza, we must turn to the key legal frameworks that define genocide: Article 6 of the Rome Statute for the International Criminal Court and Article 2 of the Genocide Convention. […] Gaza's devastating reality mirrors these components of genocide. Despite claiming to target only Hamas, Israel is engaged in an all-out assault on the whole population of Gaza."
Butler	November 2023	Philosopher	Frankfurter Rundschau	Q: "Welche Reaktion erhoffen Sie sich als Unterzeichnerin des offenen Briefes "Philosophie für Palästina"?." [What reaction do you hope to get as a signatory of the open letter "Philosophy for Palestine"?] A: "Ich hoffe, dass der Völkermord an der Zivilbevölkerung in Gaza ein Ende hat. Es gibt Menschen, die sich von einem Völkermord abwenden, wenn er geschieht, und später bereuen, dass sie sich geweigert haben, das zu benennen, was sie sehen und wissen. Ich schließe mich denen an, die diese bösartige und vorsätzliche Gewalt als "Völkermord" bezeichnen, denn sie entspricht der Definition der Völkermordkonvention." [I hope that the genocide of the civilian population in Gaza will come to an end. There are people who turn away from genocide when it happens, and later regret that they refused to name what they see and know. I join those who call this vicious and deliberate violence "genocide" because it corresponds to the definition of the Genocide Convention.]
Shaw	November 2023	International relations prof, Sociologist specialising in genocide	New Lines Magazine	""Genocide" is generally under-deployed because states wish to avoid the responsibilities to "prevent and punish" that the convention imposes on signatories, but there is a special aversion to investigating its implications for Israel's conduct. Western states continue to protect it out of a misplaced belief that Jews, having been prime historical victims of genocide, cannot also be its perpetrators. Israel's current policies are rapidly destroying that conceit, however, and bringing closer the day when its leaders — as well as those of Hamas — will be brought to account for their crimes."	Already in article
154 Holocaust scholars	November 2023	Holocaust scholars	open letter at a conference in Prague	"Today, more than ever, we need to reaffirm, without any caveats, the right of Jews to live in Israel and to defend themselves against those who deny Israel and Jews the right to exist. We deplore the humanitarian catastrophe of the Palestinian people in Gaza and note that it derives directly from the use of civilians as human shields by the Hamas. We, the scholars of the Holocaust assembled in Prague at the Lessons & Legacies conference, as well as other Holocaust scholars and persons devoted to Holocaust memory, unequivocally condemn the politics of terror pursued by Hamas and denounce the forces of global antisemitism."	McDoom talks about the statement in this journal article
Jikeli	November 2023	Historian	research paper	"Only five posts were positive about Israel, some refuting the accusation that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. Notorious Jewish critics of Israel, such as Norman Finkelstein (Figure 11), Gabor Maté, and Jane Hirschmann were repeatedly used to accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing and genocide, often with embedded videos.", "It is worth noting that according to the United Nations definition of genocide, the Hamas massacre is genocide, while the Gaza war is not."
48 scholars	November 2023	Professor of Law and Globalisation, Professor of Criminology, Professor of Criminology, Senior lecturer in Sociology, Professor of Social Anthropology, 43 other scholars	International State Crime Initiative	"the Israeli state is employing its extensive and advanced military capacity to inflict violence on Palestinian peoples on such a scale that it is accurate to frame it as the annihilation phase of genocide.", "Israel's announcement of a state of 'total siege' of Gaza, cutting off water, food, electricity and medical supplies, amounted to a clear statement of intent to commit genocide against the Palestinian people by 'deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part' (Genocide Convention 1948, Article 2)."	Already in article
Waxman	November 2023	professor of political science	Jewish Currents	"To be sure, some of the deeply disturbing rhetoric coming from senior figures in the Israeli government [..] raises the risk of genocidal actions. [..] However, to claim that genocide is already occurring requires stretching the concept too far, emptying it of any meaning."	Already in article via Vox article
Buser	November 2023	Historian	The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles	"This is not genocide."
Blatman	November 2023	Holocaust historian	Haaretz	"The mere fact that Israel and the Palestinians have been waging a bloody war between them for four generations, and they are both committing war crimes and hair-raising acts of violence, still does not mean that a genocide began in Gaza in October 2023"
Eghbariah	November 2023	Human rights lawyer and academic	The Nation	"Some may claim that the invocation of genocide, especially in Gaza, is fraught. But does one have to wait for a genocide to be successfully completed to name it? This logic contributes to the politics of denial. When it comes to Gaza, there is a sense of moral hypocrisy that undergirds Western epistemological approaches, one which mutes the ability to name the violence inflicted upon Palestinians.", "If the international community takes its crimes seriously, then the discussion about the unfolding genocide in Gaza is not a matter of mere semantics.", "Numerous statements made by top Israeli politicians affirm their intentions. There is a forming consensus among leading scholars in the field of genocide studies that "these statements could easily be construed as indicating a genocidal intent," as Omer Bartov, an authority in the field, writes."
Verdeja	November 2023	Professor of peace studies and global politics (with a focus on genocide)	Zeit	"Verdeja says Israel's actions in Gaza are moving toward a "genocidal campaign." While he notes that it is clear Israeli forces intend to destroy Hamas, "the response when you have a security crisis…can be one of ceasefire, negotiation, or it can be genocide.""	Already in article
Sanford	November 2023	Anthropologist specialising in Human Rights and Genocide	Zeit	"City University of New York professor Victoria Sanford compares what's happening in Gaza to the killing or disappearance of more than 200,000 Mayans in Guatemala from 1960-1996, known as the Guatemalan genocide"	Already in article
Simon	November 2023	Global Affairs professor, Director of the genocide studies	Zeit	"Israel has only explicitly said they want to exterminate Hamas, and has not directly stated intent to "destroy a religious, ethnic or racial group." Simon says it's possible a court could conclude that either Hamas or some elements of the Israel Defense Force (IDF) could be found guilty of committing an act of genocide, but "it's certainly not textbook in that connecting the intent to destroy ethnic group as such is difficult.""	Already in article
Kiernan	November 2023	Historian, Professor of International and Area Studies	Zeit	"Israel's retaliatory bombing of Gaza, however indiscriminate, and its current ground attacks, despite the numerous civilian casualties they are causing among Gaza's Palestinian population, do not meet the very high threshold that is required to meet the legal definition of genocide."	Already in article
Hinton	November 2023	Anthropologist, Chair on genocide prevention	Zeit	"when Mokhiber called it a "textbook case of genocide," he seemed to be "drawing on a more social scientific understanding that looks at settler colonialism and sort of this long term gradual erasure of a group.""	Already in article
Friling, Jockusch, Steier-Livny, Patt & Porat	November 2023	Historians and Holocaust scholars: 1; 2; 3; 4; 5	Haaretz	"Charging Israel With Genocide in Gaza Is Inflammatory and Dangerous. Historians must be guided by the facts, not political agendas. But when Omer Bartov in The New York Times charged Israel with 'verging' into genocide and ethnic cleansing, he grounded his argument in assertions, not evidence."	Already in article
Goda & Herf	November 2023	Historians and Holocaust scholars: 1; 2	New York Times	"Israel's targets are military: Hamas's soldiers, tunnels, headquarters and weapons stocks. By placing military targets in and under civilian structures, it is Hamas that violates laws of war. The 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention mentions demonstrable intent to destroy a national, racial or religious group. Mr. Bartov is mute about Israel's hundreds of phone calls to Gazans warning them to leave buildings in which Hamas fighters were located. Israel has urged civilians to evacuate to the south to escape battle. A government intent on genocide would do the opposite."
Michlic	November 2023	genocide scholar	Belfast Newletter	"The left that expresses these ideas have no intellectual knowledge of international laws making clear distinctions between different ways of killings", "Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza that entails urban house-to-house fighting that regrettably creates many civilian casualties, as in other wars of this type".
Kotek	November 2023	genocide scholar	L'Express	"The Israeli offensive on Gaza is nothing like the Herero genocide"
Spencer	November 2023	urban warfare researcher	CNN	"Israel is upholding the laws of war"
Karsenti et al	November 2023	Political scientist, historian and sociologists: 1; 2; 3; 4	AOC	"By denying their historical connection with Palestine and by attributing a genocidal intention to those who built a state to protect themselves from any genocidal recurrence, Didier Fassin reactivates a classic anti-Semitic gesture that always proceeds by inversion: accusing the Jews of being guilty of what one is preparing to do or fantasizes about doing to them.","And yet, one must choose sides on the question of whether or not one recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist. If one recognizes it, then the massacre of civilians, intentionally targeted on its sovereign territory, gives it the right not only to defend itself, but to take the necessary measures to ensure that this can never happen again, and therefore to eliminate Hamas, whose program this is."
Crane	November 2023	International law scholar	NPR	"It's not an easy case because you have to have that smoking gun. So, you know, I respectfully disagree with his [Mokhiber's] approach on this. If you look at both parties in this tragedy that is unfolding, the prime minister of Israel has to specifically state that, I intend to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people. And I would suggest, respectfully, that that has not been said. Now, they have a long-term problem politically, practically and legally related to their treatment of the Palestinians. But I would beg to differ. I don't think one would categorize that as genocide."
Corn	November 2023	Professor of law and expert on military law	The Jewish Chronicle	"Many accuse Israel of genocide. These accusations undermine the meaning of what they allege. It might be appealing to toss such accusations about but, as Justice Stewart warned, the significance of the concept of war crimes and credibility of the law is eroded by such overbroad and often invalid accusations. One need only consider the genocide accusation. Palestinians make up 20 percent of the Israeli population with the same civil rights and legal privileges as any other Israeli citizen. How this aligns with the accusation that Israel is engaged in a systemic effort to destroy this ethnic group is perplexing. Nor do casualties in Gaza support even suspicion of genocide."	The view that Palestinians enjoy the "same civil rights and legal privileges" is highly contested by other legal experts. See 2010 report, 2022 report, 2023 report
Ben Hounet	December 2023	Social anthropologist	Lundi.am	"Beaucoup de chercheurs en France et en Europe se refusent à parler de génocide et évoquent, au mieux, le terme de nettoyage ethnique. Faut-il leur rappeler que de nombreux génocides ont été perpétrés dans la continuation du nettoyage ethnique et lorsque celui-ci a été rendu impossible ? Combien de cases faudra-il cocher avant que les puissances occidentales se décident à réagir fermement et que les intellectuels se saisissent vraiment de ce sujet ?" [Many researchers in France and Europe refuse to talk about genocide and, at best, use the term ethnic cleansing. Should we remind them that many genocides have been perpetrated in the continuation of ethnic cleansing and when it has been made impossible? How many boxes will have to be ticked before Western powers decide to react firmly and intellectuals really take up this subject?]
Moreno Ocampo	December 2023	former chief prosecutor of the ICC	Al Jazeera	"The siege of Gaza itself, that is extermination or persecution as a crime against humanity, and it's a form of genocide... Inflicting conditions to destroy the group, that itself is a genocide. So creating a siege itself is a genocide, and that is very clear, that Israel want the siege is very clear. And the intentions to destroy the people, many officers from the Israel government are expressing genocidal intentions. That's why it's easy to say — under reasonable basis to believe — Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza."	Already in article
Ambos	December 2023	professor of criminal law and head of the Department of Foreign and International Criminal Law	Hard to group into a clear category	"Bartov chooses his words carefully. He warns of possibly impending genocide without claiming it is happening already. Some statements of certain Israeli policymakers are indeed worrisome. Yet, while they may be relevant for proving the necessary specific intent, they cannot automatically be attributed to the persons who are taking the military decisions."
Multiple specialists in international medicine	December 2023		The Lancet	"Before October's escalation of violence, the effect of the Israeli siege of Gaza had already been described as a "slow-motion genocide".", "We situate this violence in relation to the definition of genocide as described in Article 2 of the Genocide Convention, focusing on physical elements including killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, creating life-threatening conditions, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children.", "As public health and humanitarian professionals, we the authors state emphatically that the grave risk of genocide against the Palestinian people warrants immediate—and now overdue—action."	Already in article
Finkelstein	December 2023	Political scientist	GV Wire	"countered that Israel has been engaging in a genocidal war in Gaza since the conflict's inception"	Already in article
Segal et al.	December 2023	60 scholars in Holocaust and Genocide Studies	Contending Modernities	"We, scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence, feel compelled to warn of the danger of genocide in Israel's attack on Gaza.", "Moreover, dozens of statements of Israeli leaders, ministers in the war cabinet, and senior army officers since 7 October—that is, people with command authority—suggest an "intent to destroy" Palestinians "as such," in the language of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide."	Already in article
Lemkin Institute	December 2023	Antigenocide NGO	Lemkin Institute	"The genocide being perpetrated by the State of Israel is embedded in a complex historical, political, and strategic context that seems to have fostered and, ultimately, devolved into a pervasive genocidal dynamic on both sides of the conflict – Israel, on the one hand, and the Islamist militant organization known as Hamas, on the other – as well as among segments of their respective populations, especially, as will be explained below, in the case of Israel.", "The Lemkin Institute believes that Israel's retaliation against Palestinians amounts not only to war crimes and crimes against humanity, but also to genocide, as also asserted by, among others, the former Director of the New York Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Craig Mokhiber."	Already in article
Patel	December 2023	Legal researcher, reader in International law (holds LLM)	Canadian Broadcasting Corporation	""The intent that we have observed is extensive and it comes from all quarters of the Israeli state," said Anisha Patel, a legal researcher with the group Law for Palestine — which provides legal analysis on international law as it relates to Palestinians."
Jones	December 2023	Political scientist, specialising in genocide	Canadian Broadcasting Corporation	""I believe that the events of Oct. 7 qualify as a genocidal massacre of Israelis. I also think that the Israeli response, and indeed long standing Israeli policy towards the Gazan population, evinces elements of genocidal thinking and increasingly practice," he said."
Ayyash	December 2023	Sociologist specialising in violence and colonialism	Canadian Broadcasting Corporation	"He says what's happening in Gaza is "a deliberate genocidal operation" and that Canada is complicit by having not called for a ceasefire."
Spencer	December 2023	genocide scholar	K. online journal	"As far as I am concerned, the charge of genocide against Israel is particularly shocking. It betrays a wilful refusal to recognise that Hamas has openly stated its genocidal aims, and has perpetrated acts which fall quite clearly within the definition of genocidal acts according to the Convention"
Dirk Moses	December 2023	genocide scholar	Democracy for the Arab World Now	"Today, international law on genocide is working as it was designed to: allowing states to ruthlessly exterminate security threats while making it difficult to apply that law. By the reasoning of international lawyers supporting Israel's war in Gaza today, there are no limits to the number of Palestinian civilians who can be killed incidentally in the pursuit of Israeli military objectives.", "The grotesque nature of the law of genocide, however, is that victim numbers are irrelevant. All that counts is intent. If the intention is military rather than genocidal, many will argue not only that legitimate self-defense rather than genocide is taking place, but also that it is legal and even moral."	See also his November article in the Boston Review
Rosensaft	January 2024	Professor of law, expert on genocide law	Times of Israel	"The word genocide is used willy-nilly by people all over the world, but genocide, as it has evolved since 1948 when the genocide convention was first adopted by the UN General Assembly, is a legal concept. And whatever else Israel is doing, and has done, it is not intending to destroy the Palestinian people; either on the West Bank or in Gaza", "Even Netanyahu, with whom I fundamentally disagree on most issues, is not planning to evict the Palestinians from Gaza. So the term genocide does not work.", "October 7 was a deliberate action by a genocidal organization that targeted Israeli — meaning Jewish — civilians: women, men, children, and the elderly."
Paul	January 2024	Professor of law	San Francisco Chronicle	"I see no evidence that Israel is trying to destroy all or a substantial part of the Palestinians."
Mirsky	January 2024	Middle east and human rights expert	UnHerd	"South Africa was able to present evidence of genocidal-sounding intent from any number of political actors in the Netanyahu government. None of them, though, have direct decision-making authority over the conduct of the war, leading to open hostility between some of them (Itamar Ben-Gvir above all) with the IDF high command. That direct authority is reserved not just to the military professionals, but to the war cabinet, convened by Netanyahu to insulate him from his own coalition partners, and in which the political opposition to Netanyahu is well-represented; given Israeli public fury at Netanyahu, he would no longer be in power if they weren't in the room. Moreover, if genocide were Israel's aim, issuing warnings before bombings, creating humanitarian corridors (however limited), and allowing in food and other necessities would be a pretty poor way of going about it."	The evidence provided by South Africa in their submission, as detailed in this Guardian article, includes comments made by Yoav Gallant (Minister of Defence and member of the Israeli war cabinet), and made by Benjamin Netanyahu (Prime Minister of Israel) as evidence of genocidal intent.
Dershowitz	January 2024	Professor of law	Ynet	"Israel did not commit genocide, the number of civilians who were killed is proportional to the number of combatants, it is lower than any war in modern history. Israel is trying its best to preserve civilian life, whereas Hamas is doing its best to take civilian lives."
1,347 francophone academics	January 2024	(most relevant not all)	L'Humanité	"Nous nous opposons aux graves violations par Israël des droits humains et de la liberté académique des Palestiniens, à la guerre génocidaire en cours à Gaza ainsi qu'aux arrestations et détentions arbitraires en particulier celles subies par les étudiants et le personnel palestinien dans les universités de Cisjordanie." [We oppose Israel's grave violations of Palestinian human rights and academic freedom, the ongoing genocidal war in Gaza, and arbitrary arrests and detentions, particularly those suffered by Palestinian students and staff in West Bank universities.]
El-Affendi	January 2024	Professor of Politics and Dean of Social Sciences	Journal of Genocide Research	"If the (televised) Syrian genocide was the first internationally tolerated series of atrocities, then the recent genocidal violence in Gaza is the first with active input from the "international community."", "One maxim it should state is: if a series of actions approach genocide sufficiently to occasion a debate on whether they are genocide or not, then they are evil enough to be denounced without ifs or buts"	Already in article
Üngör	January 2024	Professor of genocide studies	Journal of Genocide Research	"The dynamic of violence since 7 October then is not a qualitative transmutation, but a corollary of the path-dependent history of the conflict: asymmetrical power relations, and annihilatory attitudes towards civilians.", "It is also evident to most observers that the Israeli reaction is unmistakably counter-genocidal in terms of the quantity, quality, and dynamic of mass violence. Even if we disregard the quantitative dimension of the ongoing death toll, an analysis of the qualitative elements of the violence indicates a complex process of destruction."	Already in article
Lederman	January 2024	Holocaust scholar	Journal of Genocide Research	"On 7 October, Gaza became a laboratory for genocidal violence. I use this term to distinguish it from genocide per se, to refer to violence that has certain genocidal characteristics but not others.", "Considering the importance of settler colonialism as a frame of analysis in genocide studies, we may do well to consider Gaza as a laboratory not just for the dynamic of settler colonialism and its contemporary relevance as underlying hegemonic legal, political, and moral frameworks, but also for the politics of applying this frame and its moral implications."	Already in article
Samudzi	January 2024	Sociologist	Journal of Genocide Research	"Thus, inhered within this strategy, within Israel's retaliatory campaign on Gaza, is a transtemporal logic of genocide that attempts to neutralize the Gazan Palestinian in the present so as altogether displace and/or eliminate its presence and foreclose the possibility of its future.", "Because of the legal impunity that Israel has enjoyed, the question of genocide in Palestine transcends the applicability of the Genocide Convention (though, arguably, present violence in Gaza includes nearly every act outlined in Article II) and can be better sociologically understood through the eight techniques of genocide outlined by Lemkin himself."	Already in article
Levene	January 2024	History Professor	Journal of Genocide Research	"All that said, if the utterance of genocide too obviously sticks in the craw for those like Illouz, who might read an inherent dissonance in the implication of a post-Holocaust state committing the act – arguably the ultimate Jewish taboo – there might be other routes by which we could overcome a semantic disagreement.", "The reality of the situation, whatever nomenclature genocide scholars may consider most appropriate – genocide, genocidal warfare, permanent security, urbicide, social death –the Israeli state this time has dissolved any remaining vestige (if ever there was one) of moral unassailability and given other (liberal or illiberal) states who might have their own unﬁnished reckonings with communal adversaries the respectability of open season to do their worst."	Already in article
Shaw	January 2024	International relations prof, Sociologist specialising in genocide	Journal of Genocide Research	"Likewise warning of the potential for genocide as a maximal end-state obscured the genocidal process that was already occurring, [...] Moreover, if the United Nations Genocide Convention was an inevitable reference point, the choice to hew close to a legal tick-box exercise not only allowed defenders of Israel's violence to argued that the criteria had not been met. It also sidelined the Convention's manifold defects, recognized in the field since its inception, and those of the subsequent jurisprudence, recently exposed in the case of Ukraine.", "It was therefore essential to recognize that in genocidal war, policies radicalize. Israel's initial genocidal thrust contained the potential for a greater genocide, which might turn the right's most ambitious ideas into reality."	Already in article
Semerdjian	January 2024	History professor, Chair of Armenian genocide studies	Journal of Genocide Research	"Furthermore, as the civilian/combatant distinction has collapsed, and given the scale of civilian destruction, it appears the distinction between the targeted bombing promised by "humane war" and indiscriminate bombing has largely vanished. Since everything from taking shelter in hospitals or fleeing for safety is declared a form of human shielding, the entire civilian population has been transformed into a legal target. This too is the logic of genocide.", "Terms like "civil war," "conflict," and even "counterinsurgency" frequently serve as legal cover for genocide, and in its wake, form the repertoire of genocide denial.", "For many, the killing of Palestinians in Gaza is justifiable self-defense. In the wake of 7 October, America and European allies offered support for Israel's unrestrained "right to defense" for "permanent security" in the tradition of America's own War on Terror. The problem is, genocides are also premised on the right to security and self-defense against an existential threat."	Already in article
International Coalition to Stop Genocide in Palestine	January 2024	100 international organisations	Common Dreams	"urging governments across the globe to formally support South Africa's International Court of Justice case against Israel, accusing the government of genocidal violence in Gaza.",	Already in article
Bishara	January 2024	Political philosopher, director of the ACRPS	Al-Muntaqa, journal of the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies	"The essay contends that Israel and its allies' claim of self-defence to justify their genocidal actions in Gaza and to marginalize moral judgements is a blatant lie.", "In this case, shared identity is a motive for rejecting Israel's monopolization of the conversation, its claim to speak in the name of the Jews while committing genocide, and its distortion of that identity with its criminal practices against the Palestinian people."	Includes specific responses to Habermas' arguments.
Wiese	January 2024	"research assistant and doctoral candidate at the Chair of European Law, Public International Law and Public Law"	Stern	"but is usually very difficult to prove"; "The destruction of the group must be the sole aim of the perpetrator"; under international law, there is a right to self-defence
Platt	January 2024	social sciences professor with a focus on genocide research	Deutschlandfunk Kultur (Audio episode)	"Genocide really doesn't fit here/does not fit at all" (from title)
Schabas	January 2024	Professor of international law	WOZ Die Wochenzeitung	"I am fairly certain that South Africa will win on the interim measures - but not that it will win on the main issue in four or five years' time."; "I based my statement, which I made back in October, on the statements that Israel was essentially besieging Gaza and denying it food, medicine, drinking water and electricity. I said that this alone was enough to indicate a serious risk of genocide. In my view, that risk has become even greater."	Already in article via Courtroom news article
Schabas	January 2024	Professor of international law, and expert in genocide	ITV	"Professor William Schabas, an elected President of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, was one of the world's first experts to sound the alarm, citing "serious risk of genocide" as early as late October 2023. "The evidence today is even more compelling," he told ITV News. "To me it is increasingly clear that Israel is not aiming to defeat Hamas, but rather to uproot or erase the population of Gaza.""	Already in article
Boyle	January 2024	Professor of international law	ITV	"Professor Francis Boyle, who won the first case ever under the genocide convention at the ICJ for the republic of Bosnia Herzegovina against Yugoslavia, said he is confident South Africa will win an order against Israel to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Palestinians. He told ITV News: "When I submitted my case, I had to work on it on my own. South Africa has an impressive team of experts who have managed to put together the most comprehensive and impeccable application.""
Herik	January 2024	professor of international public law	Leiden University website	That is a claim that is very difficult to prove, because you have to prove that Israel is acting with the specific purpose of exterminating the Palestinians.
Sfard	January 2024	Human rights lawyer	The Guardian	"Sfard said he was stunned by the speed with which incitement to genocide and other extreme speech had been normalised in Israel.", "The gap between that and the freedom and impunity for those who advocate all kinds of things – ethnic cleansing, killing civilians, bombarding civilian areas, and even genocide – doesn't square up, and that's something for the authorities to explain."	Already in article
Cohen and Shany	January 2024	International Law Professors: 1 2	Just Security	The raising of even more serious charges – such as the commission of genocide, the "crime of crimes" – requires an even higher commitment to factual analysis, which should include all relevant facts, including those "inconvenient" to whoever is making such claims. Many of the allegations made in this regard, including those found in the recent South African application to the ICJ appear to fall short of this standard. Still, we do consider the South African application as potentially useful in drawing more attention to the positive obligations of the State of Israel to suppress incitement to genocide and to address potentially genocidal statements made in public by Israeli influencers and politicians.
Walter	January 2024	Professor of international law	Reputable online legal publication	"Although the high number of civilian deaths and the enormous material damage are horrific, they do not necessarily prove an intent to commit genocide. For example, the repeated calls for the civilian population to leave certain parts of the area or the observance of the obligation to warn and set a deadline before withdrawing protection from a civilian hospital because it is being used outside its humanitarian purpose to commit acts harmful to the enemy speak against such an intent."
Muravchik	January 2024	Political scientist	The Wall Street Journal	"Hamas, not Israel, is guilty of genocide."
Boot	January 2024	Military historian	The Washington Post	"But while it's easy to second-guess the actions of Israeli forces, there is no evidence that they have engaged in a deliberate campaign to 'destroy, in whole or in part,' the Palestinian people — which is what 'genocide' means in international law. Awful as the civilian deaths in Gaza have been, they still constitute less than 1 percent of the territory's population. If Israel, with all the firepower at its disposal, had been trying to commit mass murder, the death toll would have been higher by orders of magnitude.", "That's why the charge of genocide has been rejected not only by the United States but also by Canada, Britain and Germany, among others."	As per the determination of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia with regards to Srebrenica massacre, a majority of the population need not be killed for something to be determined to be a genocide.
Swazo	January 2024	Professor of philosophy]	North South Journal of Peace and Global Studies	"Undoubtedly, the State of Israel is an Occupying Power and subject to the law of the Geneva Conventions in the manner of its treatment of the Palestinian people. In relation to international positive law (the Geneva Conventions, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, etc.) and the morality central to the jus gentium, the State of Israel is by no means to be excepted in the way it decides to conduct itself vis-à-vis the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories, including Gaza. The Palestinians throughout the Occupied Territories are entitled as a matter of jus gentium to the full protection the international community of nations can muster on those grounds. Thus, Louis Rene Beres (1989, 29) is entirely correct to remind that, the Genocide Convention, along with other "human rights 'regime'" treaties and declarations, "represents the end of the idea of absolute sovereignty concerning non-intervention when human rights are in grievous jeopardy." And, this certainly applies in the case of Israel's war being waged against the Palestinian people in Gaza (with spillover effects in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the IDF supports settler Israelis in their hostile acts of dispossession and displacement of the Palestinians in those quarters)."
1,600 academics	January 2024	Various, some relevant	La Jornada	"Luego de rechazar cualquier discurso de odio o discriminación, llamaron a los universitarios de todo el país a apoyar diversas acciones, entre ellas sumarse al exhorto que lanzaron mas de mil 600 académicos de todo el continente a los gobiernos progresistas de América Latina para que actúen de forma conjunta contra el “genocidio” y presionen por un alto al fuego inmediato." [After rejecting any hate speech or discrimination, they called on university students throughout the country to support various actions, including joining the exhortation launched by more than 1,600 academics from all over the continent to the progressive governments of Latin America to act together against the "genocide" and press for an immediate ceasefire.]
Flasch	January 2024	Legal Consultant in Public International Law, with a focus on armed conflict	EJIL:Talk! - Blog of the European Journal of International Law	"Despite having been firmly established in international law for three quarters of a century, the definition and requisite elements of the international crime of genocide appear to have been misunderstood or, in some cases, deliberately misapplied, seemingly by both scholars and laypersons.", "Labelling Israel's military operation against Hamas as an act of genocide may threaten to undo 75 years of work to prevent and punish the commission of genocide, by diluting and diminishing the effect of the Genocide Convention."
Burke-White	February 2024	Professor of international law	University of Pennsylvania website	It should be noted that genocide is an incredibly difficult crime to prove. Genocide refers to any of a series of acts – such as the killing or the transfer of children—undertaken with "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group." Historically, courts have struggled to prove the relevant intent, which is not just murder but a concerted policy to destroy a people as a whole. For South Africa to win this case, it will need to find and provide evidence that the Israeli government's intent was not merely to prevent attacks such as those of October 7 or to degrade the capability of Hamas, but rather to annihilate the Palestinian people as a whole.
Falk	February 2024	Professor of international law, and Chair of EuroMed-Monitor	Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor	"This pattern is quite extraordinary because the states supporting Israel, above all the United States, have claimed the high moral and legal ground for themselves and have long lectured the states of the Global South about the importance of the rule of law, human rights, and respect for international law. This is instead of urging compliance with international law and morality by both sides in the face of the most transparent genocide in all of human history. In the numerous pre-Gaza genocides, the existential horrors that occurred were largely known after the fact and through statistics and abstractions, occasionally vivified by the tales told by survivors. The events, although historically reconstructed, were not as immediately real as these events in Gaza with the daily reports from journalists on the scene for more than three months."
Fassin	February 2024	Anthropologist and sociologist	Journal of Genocide Research	"It is a similar exercise that I want to propose here about the arguments used by those who have championed the right of Israel to defend itself at whatever cost for Palestinian civilians and have attacked those who have alerted the world to the risk of a genocide being perpetrated in Gaza", "As the destruction of public infrastructures, including hospitals and schools, and the tally of civilian casualties, mostly children and women, increased in Gaza on a scale never seen before in Palestine, the qualification of the war crimes committed by Israel as possibly a genocide by scholars, lawyers, experts from international organizations and even governments has generated hostile reactions in Israel and among supporters of the Israeli politics of retaliation, mostly in Western countries.", "The critics of this qualification, many of them academics, maintained that a state created for a people victim of the quintessential genocide could not be suspected of committing a similar crime", "Alerting to the prospect of a genocide being perpetrated in Gaza is stigmatized as an unconscious desire to have a genocide perpetrated against the Jews."	Already in article
Illouz	February 2024	Professor of sociology	The Forward	"The people who surround him —Ben Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich — are more overtly fascist. They believe in violence. Their camp murdered Yitzhak Rabin. They hold and defend Jewish supremacist views. Their declarations after Oct. 7 amounted to calls to genocide (even though I do not think Israel is committing genocide)."	No longer in Article
Trachtenberg	February 2024	Historian, specialising in Jewish History	The New Yorker	"Trachtenberg testified to a consensus opinion among historians of genocide that what is happening in Gaza can indeed be called a genocide, largely because the intent to cause death on a massive scale has been so clear in the statements of Israeli officials. "We are watching the genocide unfold as we speak," he said. "We are in this incredibly unique position where we can intervene to stop it, using the mechanisms of international law that are available to us.""	Already in article
Human Rights Watch	February 2024	International human rights NGO	Human Rights Watch website	"The Israeli government is starving Gaza's 2.3 million Palestinians, putting them in even more peril than before the World Court's binding order", "The Israeli government has simply ignored the court's ruling, and in some ways even intensified its repression, including further blocking lifesaving aid"	Already in article
Amnesty International	February 2024	International human rights NGO	Amnesty International website	"One month after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered “immediate and effective measures” to protect Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip from the risk of genocide by ensuring sufficient humanitarian assistance and enabling basic services, Israel has failed to take even the bare minimum steps to comply, Amnesty International said today."	Already in article
Fakhri	February 2024	Professor of law, Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food	The Guardian	"Michael Fakhri says denial of food is war crime and constitutes 'a situation of genocide'", "In my view as a UN human rights expert, this is now a situation of genocide."	Already in article
Mockaitis	February 2024	Historian	The Hill	"The IDF campaign has left much of Gaza in ruins, displacing people and creating a massive refugee and humanitarian crisis. However, the use of excessive force stems from an aversion to [Israeli military] casualties, not genocidal intent. If the massive assault on Gaza is not genocide, it may constitute a war crime, although that will be hard to prove.
El-Affendi	February 2024	Professor of politics, Dean of Social Sciences	Al Jazeera	"Increasing partisanship in Genocide Studies threatens the field itself","An endless stream of interventions in the media accompanied and followed these initiatives, exhibiting mounting polarisation and politicization","This public split among scholars prompted the Journal of Genocide Research, the leading and oldest periodical in the field, to organise a forum on the topic 'Israel-Palestine: Atrocity Crimes and the Crisis of Holocaust and Genocide Studies'. It invited a small number of leading figures in the field","Overall, in the forum, there was uneven worry about the health of the field, but near consensus that what Israel is doing in Gaza is certainly "genocidal" if not outright genocide","I also stand by my point that the increasing polarisation and partisanship in the field, together with the 'major democracies' simultaneously assuming the role of participants and deniers, is a very serious blow to the whole endeavour of genocide prevention."
Posen	February 2023	Political scientist and security analyst	Foreign Policy	"One answer is simple. When war is fought among civilians, civilians are killed.", "Western militaries, including the IDF, try to live by these laws, though the law of armed conflict does not proscribe them from waging war. They try to follow these rules in part because they reflect the values of the societies that they serve and in part because of an expectation of reciprocity, but also because pragmatically, they know that lots of civilian casualties can become a political liability at home and abroad. Hamas spends the lives of Palestinian civilians as ammunition in an information war."
Charny	March 2024	genocide scholar	Genocide Watch	"Israel is fighting back legitimately in Self-Defense in Response and in Self-Defense against Future Genocidal Attacks that Employ Citizens as Human Shields. The Geneva Conventions specifically outlaw use of human shields and justify fighting back in response. Self-Defense does not include genocidal intent."
Giroux	March 2024	Scholar and culture critic	Policy and Practice: A Development Education Review	"While the International Court of Justice judgment should be welcomed, it is hard to imagine why there isn't an immediate call for a cease-fire and a full-fledged acknowledgment of Israel's committed war crimes and acts of genocide.", "Higher education may be one of the few sites left where prominent issues such as the genocidal war on Gaza can be analysed, engaged, and subject to the rigours of history, a comprehensive analysis, and relevant evidence."
Scholars of Middle East Studies	March 2024	Middle East Studies Association	Al Jazeera	"accelerating scale of genocidal violence being inflicted on the Palestinian population of Gaza"	Already in article
Segal & Daniele	March 2024	Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies; Professor of law, specialising in armed conflict, humanitarian, and international law	Journal of Genocide Research	"Finkel reasonably concluded that it was "hard to imagine a more actionable template to destroy a national group," and that the "combination of official statements denying Ukraine and Ukrainians the right to exist, and mounting evidence of deliberate, large-scale targeting of Ukrainian civilians" left "little room for doubt" that “the threshold from war crimes to genocide" was crossed.", "Applying the same standard indicated by Finkel to the Israeli mainstream political and media discourse about Palestinians, the threshold from war crimes to genocide has been crossed before 7 October. In May 2023, a clear template to destroy a national group was proposed by Jeffrey Camras in an article in the Times of Israel. Camras proposed that "in order to right a wrong, in order to make peace and move forward, Palestine must be obliterated."", "Nonetheless, no Holocaust scholar viewed this situation in the way Finkel saw Russia's attack on Ukraine. Most Holocaust scholars, in fact, never even mentioned the large body of evidence of Israeli international crimes in the fifty-six years of Israeli occupation.", "The very different ways in which Holocaust scholars, on the one hand, and those working in Genocide Studies, on the other, have responded to the unfolding mass violence in Israel and Palestine after 7 October point to an unprecedented crisis in Holocaust and Genocide Studies. We argue that the crisis stems from the significant evidence for genocide in Israel's attack on Gaza, which has exposed the exceptional status accorded to Israel as a foundational element in the field, that is, the idea that Israel, the state of Holocaust survivors, can never perpetrate genocide."	Already in article
Feldmann	March 2024	Professor of international law	Time, via World Socialist Website	"Israel's efforts to defend itself against Hamas, even if found to involve killing disproportionate number of civilians, do not turn Israel into a genocidal actor comparable to the Nazis or the Hutu regime in Rwanda. The genocide charge depends on intent. And Israel, as a state, is not fighting the Gaza War with the intent to destroy the Palestinian people.", "These relevant facts matter for putting the genocide charge into the context of potential antisemitism. Neither South Africa nor other states have brought a genocide case against China for its conduct in Tibet or Xinjiang, or against Russia for its invasion of Ukraine. There is something specifically noteworthy about leveling the charge at the Jewish state—something intertwined with the new narrative of the Jews as archetypal oppressors rather than archetypal victims. Call it the genocide sleight of hand: if the Jews are depicted as genocidal—if Israel becomes the very archetype of a genocidal state—then Jews are much less likely to be conceived as a historically oppressed people engaged in self-defense."
Pfeifer/Weipert-Fenner/Williams	March 2024	Professor and scientific staff	blog of peace research institute	"Whether the ICJ will classify Israeli violence as genocide cannot be answered at this point in time."
Albanese	March 2024	Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory	France 24	"The UN expert who concluded Israel was committing acts of genocide in the Gaza Strip"	Already in article
1,346 academics	March 2024	(some relevant not all)	Academics 4 Peace	"Israel's assault on Gaza appears to include both acts and intent stated in the definition of genocide.", "President Biden, do not let the United States go down in history as the enabler of genocide"	Not in the article
Donoghue	April 2024	President of the ICJ during the hearing on the SA case	BBC News	"The court decided that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. It then looked at the facts as well. But it did not decide – and this is something where I'm correcting what's often said in the media – it didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible. It did emphasize in the order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide. But the shorthand that often appears, which is that there's a plausible case of genocide, isn't what the court decided."	Already in article
Walzer	April 2024	Professor/well known philosopher and political scientist	Die Zeit	"No. There is no genocidal intent on the Israeli side. Some members of the Israeli government want to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and relocate them. But fortunately, they are not the decisive force in government."	Not in the article
Bauer	April 2024	Genocide scholar	Kan 11	"Of course this is not a genocide. It is absolutely clear. But it doesn't mean that I justify what Israel does in Gaza. I think the killing that we cause there is what is called in academic language mass atrocities crimes. But obviously all comparisons to genocide are baseless."	Not in the article
1,101 lawyers	April 2024	Various legal scholars and practitioners	Open letter to Rishi Sunak	"These facts demonstrate a pattern of behaviour giving rise not only to specific violations of IHL and of crimes against humanity but also, when taken together with the evidence of genocidal intent in statements by senior Israeli officials cited by the ICJ in its Provisional Order, a serious risk of genocide. That risk relates in particular to the Genocide Convention Article II (a) "killing members of the group"; (b) "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group"; and (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part". In light of the infant and maternal mortality rates and the destruction of Gaza's healthcare system described above, these facts may also give rise to violations of Article II(d), i.e. "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group"."	Not in the article
Whyte	April 2024	Professor of philosophy, and political theorist (see also)	Journal of Genocide Research	"Israel's conduct in Gaza, and the US's active legal support for it, forces us to grapple with the seemingly unthinkable: a perfectly legal genocide, that is a genocide legitimized via a permissive interpretation of IHL.", "By turning to Gaza, I show that Israel has mobilized a deeply permissive account of IHL to justify its use of starvation as a tool of genocide.", "Notably absent from Power's statement was the stance for which she became famous: moral condemnation of a US administration that responds to genocide by rendering "the bloodshed two sided and inevitable, not genocidal.""	Not in the article
McDoom	April 2024	Professor of comparative politics	Journal of Genocide Research	"while there exists widespread consensus within the HGS community that Hamas' civilian-targeted violence should be condemned, this is not the case in respect of the Israeli government's violence. Many Holocaust and Genocide Studies (HGS) scholars have remained steadfastly silent or else uncritical of the Israeli government despite the rapidly-mounting civilian death toll", "a section of the HGS community chose not to acknowledge this possibility when voicing their views – as genocide experts – on the violence. To the contrary. Some charged Hamas with genocide against Israel. Some published further opinion to deny the Israeli government's actions constituted genocide","Their aim appeared to be to defend Israel rather than offer an impartial expert assessment of the violence", "An investigation into bias in scholarly opinion would do well to query the motivation to venture an opinion in the first place. A number of HGS centres issued official statements following the 7 October attack. The use of an institution's name and authority carries with it the implication that there is some connection either to the Holocaust or genocide. Yet the Holocaust comparison is problematic. Not simply because it belies the claim that the Holocaust was a unique event that some of the same HGS scholars forcefully make. But because the Germans were not an occupied and oppressed people. And Gaza is not a powerful, expansionary state. To the contrary.", "The bias exhibited by a section of the HGS community is not only damaging for the field's reputation, it is also self-sabotaging. Many will perceive prosemitic bias in the commentary and dismiss it as such."	Already in article
Goldmann	April 2024	Professor of international law	Junge Welt	"The law professor does not expect a clear conviction of Israel in the South Africa-Israel case, nor a clear dismissal of the lawsuit." "According to Article II of the Convention, a breach occurs when an actor implements the intention to destroy a group of people in whole or in part by killing, injuring or restricting the living conditions of said group. In the case of Israel, there is no "smoking gun" that clearly proves such an intention, explained Goldmann. Statements by Israeli politicians in the media are "non-authoritative sources""	Not in the article
Shalhoub-Kevorkian	April 2024	Professor of law, specialising in trauma, state crimes, genocide, gender violence and surveillance	The Guardian	"Her lawyers and international academics have condemned Hebrew University for fuelling months of political attacks on one of their faculty in the run-up to her detention. The rector called on her to resign in late 2023 after she signed a letter calling for a ceasefire in Gaza and describing Israel's campaign as genocide, and she was briefly suspended over the podcast cited in her interrogation."	Not in the article
Braverman	April 2024	Former Attorney General of the United Kingdom	LBC	"I very strongly rebut suggestions that Israel is in breach of international law, that there's a genocide, that there's a forced starvation."	Not in the article
Ashour	April 2024	Professor of Economics, International relations project coordinator, Organiser Docentes con Palestina	Público	"Este viernes, Docentes con Palestina ha convocado concentraciones a mediodía en todos los centros de enseñanza de Galicia en solidaridad con el pueblo palestino, para alertar una vez más del genocidio y para que el alumnado educado en el siglo XXI sea consciente de que está viviendo en directo uno de los peores horrores que han ocurrido en la historia de la raza humana." [This Friday, Teachers with Palestine has called for midday rallies in all educational centres in Galicia in solidarity with the Palestinian people, to warn once again of the genocide and so that students educated in the 21st century are aware that they are living in directly one of the worst horrors that have occurred in the history of the human race.], "Explicar que ahora mismo está ocurriendo un genocidio y exigir su final es difícil, pero es una tarea absolutamente pedagógica", sostiene." ["Explaining that a genocide is happening right now and demanding its end is difficult, but it is an absolutely pedagogical task," he maintains.]	Not in the article
Talmon	April 2024	Professor of international law	Süddeutsche Zeitung	"This is clearly a war crime. But not genocide."	Not in the article
Patel and Ben Imran	April 2024	1: Legal researcher, reader in International law (holds LLM); 2: Reader in International law (holds LLM)	Al Jazeera	"Last month, our organisation, Law for Palestine, made the first in a series of submissions to the ICC, characterising the crime of genocide committed by Israeli leaders against the Palestinian people. The 200-page document, drafted by 30 lawyers and legal researchers from across the world and reviewed by more than 15 experts, makes a compelling case for the genocidal intent as well as for the prosecutorial policy that the court has followed in other cases.", "We also refer to the database we have put together of more than 500 instances of Israeli incitement to genocide as additional proof. While the statements form a substantial part of the intent component of the crime of genocide, the submission goes beyond and highlights the various actions and official policies that additionally prove intent."	Not in the article
Sahara	April 2024	Professor of political science	The Journal of Research Institute for the History of Global Arms Transfer	"The scale of violence of the recent Israeli war has already exceeded the initial stages of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and is becoming an immense ethnic cleansing comparable with the Armenian case. In light of the bellicose discriminatory discourses of the Israeli leaders, systematic destruction of civilian targets, forced starvation, and rapidly deteriorating hygiene conditions in Gaza, there are ample grounds to believe that the war on Gaza will develop into a full-fledged genocide if unchecked."	Not in the article
Robinson	April 2024	Professor of Sociology	Journal of World-Systems Research	"Genocidal pressures were building up against the Palestinians well before the siege of Gaza that began in the wake of the October 7, 2023 Hamas attack. In Israel it is now perfectly normal to call for genocide against the Palestinians; whereas to the contrary,it is looked upon as treason to defend Palestinian life."	Not in the article
Sassoli and Diggelmann	May 2024	International Law Professors: 1; 2	SRF	"«Certain statements by Israeli politicians were genocidal». There was talk of extermination. «But the actions of the Israeli army are, in my opinion, directed against Hamas and not against the entire population»"; "He does not believe that the International Court of Justice will find a generational[sic]intent to commit genocide in the South Africa v. Israel case."	Not in the article
Pappé	May 2024	Historian, specialising in Israel-Palestine	Al Jazeera	"What we see now are massacres which are part of the genocidal impulse, namely to kill people in order to downsize the number of people living in Gaza"	Already in article
Hartwig and Müller	May 2024	Scholars of international law: 1; 2	digital news partnering with big newspapers	"I ultimately do not see sufficient grounds for genocide if one takes the legal term seriously."; "Even if individual actions by the Israeli armed forces can be described as war crimes, they do not [necessarily - added by me] at the same time constitute genocide."	Not in the article
Sultany	May 2024	Reader in Public law	Journal of Genocide Research	"Legal discourse needs to match the reality of horror to maintain its relevance. Although legal scholars and commentators were slow to recognize the severity and urgency of the situation, this article sought to show that there is an emerging consensus that Israel's actions in Gaza are not another instance of armed conflict but instead amount to genocide. This genocide is committed against an integral component of the Palestinian people, a protected group under the Genocide Convention. The preceding discussion shows that obstacles facing a legal determination of genocide (namely, assessing the credibility of military logic and the existence of genocidal intent) are not insurmountable. The emerging consensus described here may not be overwhelming and will have to face opposition and potential judicial disagreement. Yet an overwhelming body of evidence supports it and a consistency in the application of standards requires it."	Already in article
Jamshidi	May 2024	Professor of law	Journal of Genocide Research	"That application was preceded by weeks of public debate and insistence by Palestinians and others – including genocide scholars – that Israel was either already committing genocide against the residents of Gaza or risked committing genocide [...] The law of genocide often tells us to disregard what our eyes leave little doubt is happening. This creates a profound disconnect between the legal definition of genocide and popular and historical experiences and understandings of the term. By situating the catastrophe in Gaza both within Israel's long history of eliminationist violence towards Palestinians and fine-tuned legal arguments, South Africa has brought the law into line with the historical reality and lived-experiences of the victims of genocide, forcing a dialectical conversation between two, often, opposing planes – the law on genocide and the reality of genocide."	Not in the article
Illouz	May 2024	Professor of sociology	Haaretz	"A fierce military response facing unprecedented challenges in the history of warfare – because of a highly densely populated urban area, an underground city built below a civilian population – has become in the eyes of many a bona fide case of genocide", "Jews, Zionists and moderate people from all political parties and religions have watched the campus protests unfold in amazement, unable to believe the unselfconscious double standards, the baselessness of the historical parallels", "these protests give me no choice but to ask myself if, after all, something like the phantasmagoric irrationality of antisemitism is at work here."	Not in the article
Di-Capua	May 2024	Professor of history, focusing on intellectual history and the modern Arab world	Journal of Genocide Research	"Conditions for the emergence of a Jewish genocidal mindset in Israel evolved gradually since the 1970s.", "Positioned at the core of rural Palestinian life, these settlements serve as intellectual incubators and experimental laboratories of genocidal politics, chief of which is ethnic cleansing.", "By and large, though the IDF avoids drafting the most radical and violent members of Hardal, given the growing size of this demographic within the army, including among the officers’ corps and the growing number of soldiers who sympathize or directly belong to these genocidal circles especially on the field level, their influence is growing.", "A decade later, and in the context of the current war in Gaza, the rhetoric of a genocidal Jewish Holy War is being pushed into the mainstream like never before and is featured in many of its ground operations, especially among the ranks of the more popular infantry and armoured divisions."	Already in article
Maison	May 2024	Professor of international law	Orient XXI	"S'agissant de Gaza, la qualification de génocide peut également être sérieusement envisagée au regard, notamment, de la systématicité des attaques, de leur sens, et de leur inscription dans une offensive plus large contre la population civile." [With regard to Gaza, the qualification of genocide can also be seriously considered in view, in particular, of the systematic nature of the attacks, their meaning, and their inclusion in a broader offensive against the civilian population.], "C'est à ce moment qu’un élément inédit a été avancé en faveur d'Israël : une interview de l'ancienne présidente de la Cour internationale de justice, Joan Donoghue, affirmant que la juridiction n’aurait pas reconnu une affaire plausible de génocide (a « plausible case of genocide »). Rappelons ici que, dans son ordonnance du 26 janvier 2024, la cour affirme que le droit des Palestiniens d'être protégés contre les actes de génocide est plausible (§§ 36, 54), et qu'il existe une urgence, c'est à dire un « risque réel et imminent » de préjudice irréparable causé aux droits revendiqués (§ 61, 74). Il s'agit bien d'un risque de génocide, même si la cour n'emploie pas la formule « affaire plausible de génocide ». Les médias se sont précipités sur les propos ambigus de Joan Donoghue pour minimiser le sens de l'ordonnance et réfuter l'emploi du terme génocide." [It was at this point that a new element was put forward in Israel's favour: an interview with the former President of the International Court of Justice, Joan Donoghue, stating that the court would not have recognised a plausible case of genocide. Let us recall here that, in its order of 26 January 2024, the court affirms that the right of Palestinians to be protected against acts of genocide is plausible (§§ 36, 54), and that there is an emergency, that is to say a "real and imminent risk" of irreparable harm caused to the rights claimed (§§ 61, 74). This is indeed a risk of genocide, even if the court does not use the phrase "plausible case of genocide". The media rushed to seize on Joan Donoghue's ambiguous remarks to minimize the meaning of the order and refute the use of the term genocide.]	Not in the article
Lévy	May 2024	Philosopher	France Info	"Il n'y a pas de génocide à Gaza, il n'y a pas de massacre délibéré des populations civiles" [There is no genocide in Gaza, there is no deliberate massacre of civilian populations.]	Not in the article
Rajchenberg	May 2024	Professor of Economics	La Jornada	"Enrique Rajchenberg, profesor de la Facultad de Economía, resaltó: "Me han preguntado por qué formo parte del colectivo Académicos con Palestina contra el genocidio, desde el cual hemos condenado la política colonialista de Israel y el genocidio que comete todos los días el ejército de ese país contra la población civil palestina. "La pregunta se formula porque no sólo soy judío, sino sobre todo porque soy hijo de sobrevivientes de la Shoa, del erróneamente llamado Holocausto de los años 40 del siglo XX, uno de los episodios más drámaticos de la historia moderna. "Respondo a la pregunta: porque tengo fundadas razones biográficas y morales, mismas que me obligan a acompañar a este campamento de estudiantes, académicos y trabajadores universitarios y porque yo mismo soy trabajador académico desde hace casi medio siglo."" [Enrique Rajchenberg, professor at the Faculty of Economics, highlighted: "I have been asked why I am part of the collective Academics with Palestine against genocide, from which we have condemned Israel's colonialist policy and the genocide committed every day by the army of that country against the Palestinian civilian population. "The question is asked because I am not only Jewish, but above all because I am the son of survivors of the Shoah, of the erroneously named Holocaust of the 1940s, one of the most dramatic episodes in modern history. "I answer the question: because I have well-founded biographical and moral reasons, which oblige me to accompany this camp of students, academics and university workers and because I myself have been an academic worker for almost half a century."]	Not in the article
Several professors	June 2024	Several professors, including: Professor of information theory; Professor of political science; Professor of sociology, with a specialism in politics; Professor of sociology	El País	"La introducción al texto presentado por los catedráticos enumera cinco peticiones dirigidas al rector de la UCM: una condena "clara y explícita" de la destrucción deliberada de las universidades palestinas y el ataque a profesores, estudiantes y personal universitario; la petición de alto al fuego "inmediato y permanente"; la cancelación de toda colaboración con universidades israelís "que se relacionen con el genocidio de Gaza"; financiar programas para acoger a estudiantes y maestros palestinos; y la cancelación de toda colaboración con empresas o instituciones "que otorguen un apoyo directo o al genocidio en Gaza"." [The introduction to the text presented by the professors lists five requests addressed to the rector of the UCM: a "clear and explicit" condemnation of the deliberate destruction of Palestinian universities and the attack on professors, students and university staff; the request for an "immediate and permanent" ceasefire; the cancellation of all collaboration with Israeli universities "that are related to the genocide in Gaza"; funding programmes to welcome Palestinian students and teachers; and the cancellation of any collaboration with companies or institutions "that provide direct support or genocide in Gaza".]	Not in the article
Khan	June 2024	Professor of international law	ZDF	"The defining element is above all the intent to destroy, which, however, can currently hardly be proven by the Israeli leadership"	Not in the article
758 Scholars of the Middle East	June 2024		Brookings Institution	"A majority of Middle East scholars see Israeli motives in Gaza to be about forcing Palestinians out [57%]" "How would you define Israel's current military actions in Gaza? Response: Major war crimes akin to genocide (41%), Genocide (34%), Major war crimes but not akin to genocide (16%), Unjustified actions but not major war crimes (4%), Justified actions under the right to self-defense (4%)".	Already in article
Neier	June 2024	Human rights activist	The New York Review	"Hamas has embedded itself in the civilian population of Gaza, and its extensive network of tunnels provides its combatants the ability to move around quickly. Even if Israel's bombers were intent on minimizing harm to civilians, they would have had difficulty doing so in their effort to destroy Hamas. And yet, even believing this, I am now persuaded that Israel is engaged in genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. What has changed my mind is its sustained policy of obstructing the movement of humanitarian assistance into the territory."	Comments about how these actions are "indicative of genocide" are already in article attributed to Neier via this CNN interview
Akram	June 2024	LAW clinical professor of law and director of LAW's International Human Rights Clinic	Boston University Today & University Network for Human Rights	Q:"For all of the condemnation of Israel's actions, there is also strong opposition to Israel's actions being labeled a genocide. Where does that pushback come from?". A:"The opposition is political, as there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza."	Already in article
Ali	June 2024	Head of international law department at Bindmans LLP	Middle East Monitor	"He emphasised that, despite Israel's own repetition of genocidal intent, "Western leaders are guilty of viewing Palestine and Israel through the prejudiced prism of a merciless Palestinian terrorists against the gentle Jewish victims who are desperately maintaining the only democracy in the Middle East.""	Also includes new comments from Albanese and Sultany
Jacquet	June 2024	Professor of diplomacy and geopolitics	Anadolu Agency	""Given the extent of the war crimes and the military operations carried out by the Israeli army on the ground, this situation can be considered genocide according to a growing number of international lawyers," Jacquet said."	Not in the article
Ak	June 2024	Professor of political science	Journal of Humanity, Peace and Justice	"this research will also contribute to the related field of the social sciences as being the first clear example of genocide acts perpetuated by Israel so far in one of the whole Palestine territory like the Gaza Strip.", "At first, it will not be wrong to claim that the Palestinian cause regarding recent Israeli Gaza assaults is a trickling genocide, slow but relentless."	Not in the article
McAlister	June 2024	Professor of history	Canadian Foreign Policy Journal	"The genocide in Gaza is an opportunity for Canada to change that. A majority of Canadians may want to see a ceasefire in Gaza, but are they or their political representatives prepared to condemn the genocide?"	Not in the article
Choonara	June 2024	Professor of political economy	International Socialism	"US president Joe Biden, along with British foreign secretary David Cameron, were also isolated in their backing for Israel's genocidal offensive in Rafah."	Not in the article
Suslovic et al.	June 2024	Reader in social welfare; Professor of social work; Professor of social work; Professor of social work; Professor of social work; Organizer; Professor of social work	Abolitionist Perspectives in Social Work	"Since October 7, 2023, the world has witnessed Israel's unrelenting mass assault against the people of Gaza, killing more than 37,000 Palestinians. The response to this genocide in most sectors of professional society has largely been one of denial and suppression of solidarity with Palestine, unveiling extremes of the longstanding Palestine exception in progressive politics. This article contextualizes the social work profession's response to Israel's ongoing genocide of Palestinian people after October 7, 2023, including responses from schools of social work, social work agencies and organizations, and academic journals."	Not in the article
Ballantyne and Beddoe	June 2024	Professor of social welfare; Professor of social work	Aotearoa New Zealand Social Work	"Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that the most-read article published in 2023 was a special editorial on Justice for Palestine included in issue four (Ballantyne et al., 2023). This was a statement by editorial collective members on the situation in Palestine. In the context of the genocide, we were all witnessing on our television screens and the silence of the IFSW on this matter, we felt compelled to comment. Since that editorial was published in December 2023, the horrifying death toll has not stopped climbing, and despite the statements made by the International Criminal Court to halt the ground invasion of Rafah, Israel continues its assault on Gaza and the West Bank unabated. The editorial collective continues to express our utmost solidarity with the Palestinian people and our deep concern for the future prospects of an international rules-based order that respects all peoples' human rights, including the right to self-determination."	Not in the article
Green	June 2024	Professor of Law and Globalisation	State Crime Journal	"Just two months after this special issue was finalized Israel launched its catastrophic, genocidal assault on Gaza.", "As this timely and crucially important volume demonstrates Israel's genocide of the Palestinians is bound both to the logic of settler colonialism and to the necessity of its abolition.", "What we are witnessing now, not only in Gaza but across historic Palestine is the denouement in Israel's genocide of the indigenous Palestinians…a second Nakba and as Knesset member Arial Kallner demanded one that dwarfs the Nakba of 1948."	Not in the article
Mordechai	June 2024	Historian	The National	""The enormous amount of evidence I have seen, much of it referenced later in this document, has been enough for me to believe that Israel is currently committing genocide against the Palestinian population in Gaza," Mr Mordechai said in the introduction to a report he published."	The report, he previously wrote an article in Jacobin in April 2024 about the ongoing war crimes of the IDF, available here.
Rocafort, Hassan, Casani	June 2024	Professor of political science; Professor of computer science; Professor of political science	elDiario.es	"Después de ocho meses de genocidio en Gaza y más de 37.000 muertos palestinos, son cada vez más las voces que llaman al boicot académico a las universidades israelíes." [After eight months of genocide in Gaza and more than 37,000 Palestinian deaths, there are more and more voices calling for an academic boycott of Israeli universities.], "Existen ya diversos casos particulares de represión directa desde las universidades contra profesorado crítico con el genocidio." [There are already several particular cases of direct repression from universities against professors critical of the genocide.], "Al contrario, las universidades israelíes han sido una fuerza activa en la legitimación y mantenimiento de un sistema de segregación que ha sido considerado equivalente al apartheid sudafricano. Ahora mismo son colaboradores necesarios en el genocidio en curso." [On the contrary, Israeli universities have been an active force in legitimizing and maintaining a system of segregation that has been considered equivalent to South African apartheid. Right now they are necessary collaborators in the ongoing genocide.]
Horesh	June 2024	Professor of linguistics	elDiario.es	"Uri Horech, profesor judío israelí de lingüística, fue despedido del Achva Academic College tras acusar públicamente a Israel de cometer un genocidio." [Uri Horech, an Israeli Jewish professor of linguistics, was fired from Achva Academic College after publicly accusing Israel of committing genocide.]
Schabas	June 2024	Professor of international law	CBC News	"There have been several genocide cases now at the International Court of Justice. I think the case that South Africa is setting out is easily the strongest case of genocide. The differences between, for example, the situation in the Balkans where the borders were largely open and porous and where people could flee, we don't have that in Gaza. The statements made by politicians in Israel, the notorious statements about how the Gazans are inhumane or 'human animals' was one of the terms, statements like, we're going to deny you electricity, water, medical care. The destruction of the institutions, all of these things add up and make for a very strong case... I can't entirely predict what the judges are going to do. And you certainly could exaggerate the importance of these provisional measures orders and suggest that they represent some kind of a determination of the issue, that is yet to come."	Already in article
Totten	June 2024	Professor of history, specialist in genocide	Arkansas Democrat-Gazette	"I firmly believed, and continue to do so, that the Israelis had every right to retaliate against Hamas and to free those Israelis being held hostage by Hamas.", "Under the cover of the Israel-Hamas war, Israeli "settlers" on the West Bank are attacking Palestinian villages, forcibly removing the occupants from their homes and land, beating them (and in certain cases killing them), and stealing said land. And those Israeli thugs are doing so while under the protection and support of the Israeli army and police.", "It is crystal clear that both Hamas and the Israelis have already perpetrated, at the least, war crimes and crimes against humanity. Various others have also accused both Hamas and the Israelis of genocide. An international court will adjudicate this."
Goldberg	July 2024	Professor of Jewish history	Jacobin	"I admit that, at first, I was reluctant to call it genocide, and sought any indication to convince myself that it is not. No one wants to see themselves as part of a genocidal society. But there was explicit intent, a systematic pattern, and a genocidal outcome — so, I came to the conclusion that this is exactly what genocide looks like. And once you come to this conclusion, you cannot remain silent."	Already in article
UN Special Rapporteurs	July 2024	SR right to food, SR physical and mental health, SR human rights in the Palestinian Territory, SR drinking water and sanitation, SR human rights OF displaced persons, Independent Expert on the promotion of a democratic and equitable international order, Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent	United Nations	"We declare that Israel's intentional and targeted starvation campaign against the Palestinian people is a form of genocidal violence and has resulted in famine across all of Gaza. We call upon the international community to prioritise the delivery of humanitarian aid by land by any means necessary, end Israel's siege, and establish a ceasefire."
Semerdjian	July 2024	History professor, Chair of Armenian genocide studies	Journal of Genocide Research	"By comparing contemporary examples of starvation warfare in Artsakh and Gaza, I seek to reintroduce the concept of genocide by attrition formulated by Raphael Lemkin in Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government, Proposals for Redress (1944). Helen Fein's 1997 essay "Genocide by Attrition, 1939–1993: The Warsaw Ghetto, Cambodia, and Sudan," gave formal nomenclature to this genocidal tool.", "The carceral conditions produced by the 2006 enclosure of the Gaza Strip could be called Gazification. Land and territory are not only bifurcated with a discrete line separating two parts, but are fractured several times over through the creation of physical and digital checkpoints, "safe zones," and border inspections designed to make life suffocatingly unlivable. In order to survive, superfluous beings who resist these necropolitical forces live fugitive lives. Gazification should, therefore, be understood as an instrument of genocide by attrition that predates Hamas' attack on Israel on October 7."	Already in Article
Bartov	August 2024	Holocaust and Genocide Studies professor	The Guardian	"By the time I travelled to Israel, I had become convinced that at least since the attack by the IDF on Rafah on 6 May 2024, it was no longer possible to deny that Israel was engaged in systematic war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocidal actions."	Already in article Previously stated in November "no proof that genocide is currently taking place in Gaza […] we may be watching an ethnic cleansing operation that could quickly devolve into genocide"
Hammouri	August 2024	Lecturer in international law	The Guardian	""The case for the US's complicity in genocide is very strong," said Dr Shahd Hammouri, lecturer in international law at the University of Kent and the author of Shipments of Death. "It's providing material support, without which the genocide and other illegalities are not possible. The question of complicity for the other countries will rely on assessment of how substantial their material support has been."	Not in the article
Ó Tuathail	August 2024	Professor of government and international affairs	Environment and Planning C: Politics and Space	"Israel's genocidal campaign against residents of Gaza"	Not in the article
Murray	August 2024	Chief editor of the Journal of World-Systems Research	Journal of World-Systems Research	"Ten months into the genocide in Gaza"	Not in the article
Intondi	August 2024	Professor of history	Journal for Peace and Nuclear Disarmament	"The Law for Palestine project, a UK based human rights organization has so far documented over 500 statements made by Israeli officials which could potentially amount to incitement of genocide, which is prohibited under international law.", "Are these individuals advocating for nuclear war or inciting? Is calling for the use of nuclear weapons, the same as calling for genocide?"	Not in the article
Bauhn	August 2024	Professor of philosophy	Israel Affairs	"Israel and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have been accused of 'massacring' Palestinian civilians, even attempting a 'genocide' on the Palestinian population in Gaza, as stated in a Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor posting on 16 May 2024, and reposted that same day by Relief Web, a news service provided by the UN office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). Such accusations lack factual foundation about how the war against Hamas has been conducted.", "But there is no evidence whatsoever of any deliberate Israeli policy or plan to kill civilian Palestinians in Gaza that would remotely warrant terms like 'massacre' or 'genocide'."	Not in the article
Menon	August 2024	Professor of law	Nordic Journal of International Law	"This brings me to the comparisons between two recent cases: the wars in Gaza and Ukraine. Notwithstanding the vastly different histories leading up to the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, they both share an important similarity: the allegations of genocide against Russia and Israel.", "If Israel was using self-defence as its mode of reasoning, Russia was protecting the populations in Donetsk People's Republic, Luhansk People's Republic and Ukraine from violations of the 1948 Genocide Convention. Russian actions rendered immaterial whether Ukraine was in fact committing acts of genocide or not, as do Israeli arguments of self-defence. Russian and Israeli 'responsibility to protect' those in its (former) colonies was a strategy of empire that is not unknown."	Not in the article
Al-Hassani	August 2024	Postdoctoral researcher in Politics, Philosophy, and Religion	SEPAD: Sectarianism, Proxies and De-sectarianisation	"I have listened to academics in these different disciplines explore sovereignty, and after much reflection on the current genocide in Gaza, I am now convinced that sovereignty, in itself, is a concept weaponized to order and maintain European and Western hegemony over the global majority."	Not in the article
Razack	August 2024	Professor of gender studies	Journal of Palestine Studies		Not in the article

Requested move 3 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Gaza genocide.

This was a lengthy but actually quite straightforward discussion. There was a clear consensus from the beginning that the former title was not acceptable. From several suggestions, three plausible alternatives emerged:

Option 1 Gaza genocide question
Option 2 Gaza genocide accusation
Option 3 Gaza genocide

The discussion ran for several weeks and was well-attended after being centrally advertised to all editors. The rough headcount in favour of each option was 23 for Option 1, 26 for Option 2, and 32 for Option 3. Few editors in favour of option 1 were strongly opposed to option 2 and vice-versa; amongst those that indicated support for both, the preference was generally for option 2. A fair number of comments in favour of options 1 and 2, but generally not option 3, were not policy-based (i.e. along the lines of "there is no Gaza genocide") and the headcounts for those options should be down-weighted accordingly.

The main argument in favour of option 3 was that 'Gaza genocide' is reflective of the wording used by available reliable sources, and several editors presented detailed source analyses in support of this. This argument was contested but not convincingly rebutted. The main argument in favour of options 1 and 2 were that the unqualified use of the word 'genocide' in an article title, when the existence of a genocide is disputed, would violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view (NPOV) policy, and specifically the principle that titles should be non-judgmentally descriptive. Editors in favour of option 3 countered that the source analysis supported 'genocide' as a neutral descriptor (and conversely that 'accusation' is non-neutral), and/or that the presence of a statement in an article title does not imply that the statement is factual.

Considering that option 3 had the most support by a clear margin, that the arguments in favour of this title generally had a stronger grounding in reliable sources, and that neither side achieved a consensus on the question of which title is favoured by WP:POVTITLE, I see a rough consensus that the title of this article should be Gaza genocide. – Joe (talk) 09:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza → ? – I'm unsure what the new title should be, but I'm sure that this one has an issue. The Israeli attack on Gaza has gone past 2023 into 2024. So, we can't keep the "2023 Israeli attack on Gaza" part. Perhaps we could change it to "Allegations of genocide perpetrated by Israel in the Israel–Hamas war", "Allegations of genocide in Gaza in the Israel–Hamas war", or something different. Note that "2023 Israeli attack on Gaza" just redirects to Israel–Hamas war. Paul Vaurie (talk) 19:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about Allegations of Israeli genocide in Gaza? Simonm223 (talk) 19:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unconvinced. Most frequently on Wikipedia, ethnonym + genocide refers to the victims: Armenian genocide, Tamil genocide, Rohingya genocide, Greek genocide, etc. The current title isn't most fortunate, but until and unless we have a consensus to move to Palestinian genocide (2023–2024) – which we're rather far from at the moment given that many editors simply rely on large Euro-American press titles, while court cases have not yet been concluded – I don't see an urgent need to move away from it. — kashmīrī ^TALK 20:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was there a prior consensus against 'Palestinian genocide accusations'? entropyandvodka | talk 01:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's already a separate article! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that is a bad title. In general this area is difficult to title clearly, because there is ambiguity with labeling the alleger, the alleged perpetrator, and the alleged victim. For this article, "Allegations of genocide perpetrated by Israel in the Israel–Hamas war" seems clear, since there’s no ambiguity (because an allegation has no perpetrator, in common parlance). ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“Palestinian genocide” would imply a larger extermination in all of the areas of Palestinians controlled by Israel (such as the West Bank). “Gaza genocide” suggests the atrocities are localised and against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~"Palestinian genocide" would falsely treat the accusations as proven.~~

~~Quoting from MOS:ALLEGED, "alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined". This is exactly the situation that the claim of genocide is in.~~

~~As such, while "2023" needs changing, the title should not be changed to anything that treats the accusations as true.~~

~~Maybe something like Gaza genocide accusations, which seems like the most concise option.~~ Jerdle (talk) 01:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the title needs a change because just 2023 is obviously outdated. I lean support Allegations of genocide perpetrated by Israel in the Israel–Hamas war because it makes it clear that this article talks about accusations against Israel. I do think that the title is a bit long. But Allegations of genocide in the 2023–24 Israeli attack on Gaza is probably fine as well. Esolo5002 (talk) 23:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be more concise, it should be Allegations of genocide against Israel in the Israel–Hamas war ―Howard • 🌽³³ 10:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Allegations of genocide against Israel in the Israel–Hamas war as listed above, though maybe it could be adjusted to Allegations of genocide by Israel in the Israel–Hamas war. CybJubal (talk) 23:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Accusation of genocide in Gaza - it's a clear accusation, now substantiated in court, not an allegation, which we should generally avoid per MOS:ALLEGE. There has only been one (plausible) genocide in Gaza, so all of these other clarifying words are just fluff (and in some ways confusing) and aren't necesssary, per WP:CONCISE. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Too ambiguous. Does not account for Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 12:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what the page is about. That's not a renaming, but a re-scoping. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:36, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article (Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza) concerns accusations of genocide against Israel specifically. By merely stating "Accusation of genocide in Gaza", it is unclear who the accusation is being levied against. "Accusation of genocide in Gaza" could be an alternate name for "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel", so we need to specify who is being accused. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 12:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No it couldn't. "Accusations of genocide in Gaza" clearly implies that the genocide in question occurred in Gaza. If you are saying it could be accusations of genocide made in Gaza, well, I believe that's the same topic in the context. Accusations of genocide in Israel could also be so termed. An even shorter proposed form could be Gazan genocide accusation, in line with Palestinian genocide accusation. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:17, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not mind either option. I just want stronger and more concise wording than currently. David A (talk) 12:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the intended subject matter? Violent acts, or the public discussion about them? For clarity, it's like the difference between lab research and literary study. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I understand the analogy. The subject matter is accusations. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then the article needs to be fundamentally rewritten. For now, its largest sections focus on genocidal intent, genocidal actions, and legal proceeedings, i.e., on the alleged acts. If the article subject is to be allegations/accusations, then it should read more like a study of legal literature, focusing on describig sources, writing style, scope, data quality, authors' qualifications, etc. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't there accusations of genocidal intent, accusations of genocidal actions, and accusations as part of the legal proceedings - all of this appear to be broadly bound up together. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about "Allegations of genocide perpetrated by Israel in Gaza", "Allegations of genocide perpetrated by Israel against Palestinians", or "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 to 2024 Israeli attack on Gaza", with the word "perpetrated" potentially removed in any of the above options? Would any of these alternatives or a variation thereof work? David A (talk) 14:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: 'Accusations of genocide in Gaza' or 'Gazan genocide accusations' seem to be the most accurate suggestions so far, given the current legal state of the matter. Regarding nitpicking on scope, I'd point out that most major war crimes articles inclusively contain both proven instances as well as allegations and accusations. I'd be fine with allegations or accusations. entropyandvodka | talk 22:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to amend that with stronger support for 'Accusations of Palestinian genocide in Gaza'. Not all Gazans are Palestinians, and the accusations pertain to the intent to destroy the Palestinian people in Gaza, in whole or in part, not all Gazans broadly. entropyandvodka | talk 02:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Gazan genocide accusations oder Gaza genocide accusations oder Accusations of genocide in Gaza; focus on the place where the alleged genocide happened/is happening ("Gazan" is fine too as that would inherently also define the scope as Gaza). All meet AT criteria equally well IMO. Levivich (talk) 01:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the phrasing "by Israel" should be included somewhere in the title, for the sake of specification, clarity, and ease of finding this page via Internet searches. Otherwise it will easily be hidden from those interested in the subject. Hence, "Accusations of genocide by Israel in Gaza", "Allegations of genocide by Israel in Gaza", "Accusations of genocide by Israel against Palestinians", or "Allegations of genocide by Israel against Palestinians" might work. David A (talk) 02:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The last two don't work because there is already a Palestinian genocide accusation article; this article is a sub-article of that one and has to stay focused on Gaza and not on all Palestinians.

As to mentioning "Israel," I think similar to the suggestion of mentioning "Palestinians," even though Israel is the perpetrator and Palestinians are the target of the alleged genocide, I don't think those two details are necessary for the title. It's not like we need to distinguish the Gaza genocide accusation from another alleged genocide that is allegedly perpetrated by someone other than Israel or that allegedly targets someone other than Palestinians. The alleged genocide of Palestinians in Gaza by Israel is the only alleged genocide in Gaza, and so the concision criteria of WP:AT wins out in my view, because we don't need to be any more precise or recognizable than saying "genocide" and "Gaza" ("alleged," "allegation" or "accusation" are needed for V/NPOV). Levivich (talk) 05:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as I mentioned above, unless we mention "by Israel" in the title, searches for relevant information by visitors will be hidden, which destroys much of the point of this article, so I strongly disagree. David A (talk) 02:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support for Gaza Genocide Accusations. It's clear enough about the scope of the article while allowing for some discussion of the root causes in a background section, and it's concise. Unbandito (talk) 01:29, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is distinct from Palestinian genocide accusation, as it focuses only on the 2023–2024 invasion, so any new title should not blur the distinction (granted, the two articles may be merged in a more distant future). I'd leave Israel out of the title, as we don't routinely include the perpetrator in genocide names. My favourites are Allegations of 2023–2024 genocide in Gaza and Allegations of genocide in Gaza (2023–2024); I'd fine with both accusations and allegations. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Discrimination, WikiProject Palestine, WikiProject Ethnic groups, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Disaster management, WikiProject Death, WikiProject Israel, WikiProject Human rights, and WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 09:47, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support changing "2023 Israeli attack" (obviously outdated), and replacing "Allegations" by "Accusations" (as they have formally been made in court). Agree with Kashmiri that we don't usually include the perpetrator (which is a bit obvious, since Gaza was always under Israeli or Palestinian control since the end of the Egyptian military occupation in 1967). Allegations of 2023–2024 genocide in Gaza is okay although a bit clumsy, but Allegations of genocide in Gaza (2023–2024) sounds like the timeframe refers to the allegations. Either way, I don't think there is a need to specify the date when talking about a Gaza-specific genocide (as opposed to Palestinian genocide accusation), so Accusations of genocide in Gaza (or any another permutation of these words, such as Gaza genocide accusation) is what I'm supporting. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or Gaza genocide question – this has now moved being allegation, beyond accusation, beyond mere charge, and onto formally accepted case in the court of international law (as well as well-supported scholarly assertion). The big question remaining is yay or nay in the assessment of the court, though that could well be pre-empted by the rising chorus of genocide scholars making their own independent assessments, in addition to the hundreds that many months ago warned (unheeded) of the genocidal course of events. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would personally prefer just "Gaza genocide" or "Israel's Gaza genocide", but if "Gaza genocide question" is stronger worded language than what we use currently, I support it in lack of better options. David A (talk) 06:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~That title would only be accurate if there is a genocide happening.~~

~~That has not been found.~~ Jerdle (talk) 01:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well-documented deliberate starvation used as a weapon against an entire population and an equivalent of around 5 nuclear weapons dropped on them certainly seem to qualify combined with the completely dehumanising genocidally bigoted rhetorics used by the Israeli government and military. David A (talk) 06:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Gaza genocide question - The title has precedent with Holodomor genocide question. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 19:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a very good point. I also support Gaza genocide question above the other available options here then.

@Paul Vaurie, Simonm223, Kashmiri, Entropyandvodka, Chaotic Enby, The Great Mule of Eupatoria, Jerdle, Esolo5002, CybJubal, Iskandar323, Levivich, Unbandito, RodRabelo7, Chaotic Enby, Hogo-2020, Selfstudier, PBZE, and Ïvana: Given the above new information, do you also find this alternative acceptable, so we can make some progress here, instead of going around in circles? David A (talk) 23:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Levivich (talk) 23:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David A: Fine by me. Iskandar's reasoning makes sense and having a precedent never hurts. - Ïvana (talk) 23:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reasoning makes sense and it is consistent with other articles of a similiar subject matter so that's fine by me. CybJubal (talk) 00:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think this alternative is better than the others.

Furthermore, the words "allegations" and "accusations" only communicate that the allegations exist, without communicating their prominence in the international politics surrounding this question. The allegations are prominently supported in international politics by multiple countries. It's primarily the U.S. and Israel that are defending Israel against them. The allegations and defenses have been heard by the International Court of Justice on equal footing. These realities are better communicated with the word "question". PBZE (talk) 00:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree with this. It has moved way beyond "allegations" now. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 00:25, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, summarises the points well, a good title, and feels less like a mouthful than the temporary title the article has The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 02:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not necessarily opposed to that title if others like it, but I worry that it could expand the scope of the article beyond what is currently covered. If the article is about accusations, it will largely be an accounting of the available evidence in favor of the thesis that a genocide is ongoing in Gaza. If the article is about the question of whether a genocide is occurring, that could open up the scope of the article to arguments that a genocide is not occurring. It could be challenging to balance these competing claims while keeping the article coherent and informative. But I don't intend to stand in the way of improving this article's title, even if the improvement isn't perfect. I approve of this title if the rest of the community decides that they like it. Unbandito (talk) 02:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, would “accusations” instead of “question” be an improvement to the title? I think that could work too The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I also agree this is a good alternative. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we are going to do it this way, I prefer Gaza genocide accusation in line with Palestinian genocide accusation. Selfstudier (talk) 10:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I find that option acceptable as well. I mainly want a stronger and more concise wording than currently. David A (talk) 12:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza genocide question is a tad better than the current title. However, when going through the multiple rename/delete discussions at Talk:Tamil genocide – an event that very few sources (and no countries or international bodies) consider a genocide – we see that editors there decided to keep the present title based on the fact that the term Tamil genocide is discussed in multiple reliable sources and, as such, is automatically a valid title of a Wikipedia article.

With this in mind, I am of the opinion that Gaza genocide – likewise, a term discussed in multiple reliable sources, incomparably more numerous than for Tamil genocide – should be the eventual title of the present article. (But also see my comment below about an alternative solution.) — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:50, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, I agree with Kashmiri here. David A (talk) 19:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza genocide accusations is what I support here. It's much better than the current title. "Gaza genocide question" is what I support here. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kashmiri: I think that you usually have a very good sense of judgement. What do you think seems like the best solution here? David A (talk) 07:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David A Thank you for your kind words. I'm in two minds now, after the results of WP:Articles for deletion/Tamil genocide. On one hand, some editors argue that titles should reflect reality; they should be true to the fact. In parallel, there's also a strong argument that article titles can simply denote topics, concepts, and theories without judging their factual reality, and the only condition is that these topics etc. are attested in reliable sources. In Tamil genocide, the latter view prevailed.

So here, the question for me is whether we should have both these articles titled allegations of genocide, or it might be better for the reader – and Wikipedia is drafted for readers – to have a single article titled, say, Genocide in the Israel–Hamas war that would discuss the events, the accusations raised against both sides, and the academic debate on the applicability of the term. After that Tamil discussion, I'm inclined to take a closer view of this approach. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Please keep us updated here regarding your conclusions. David A (talk) 06:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant main article is Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip (2023–present) (RM in progress to remove the dates) rather than 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza, support a change to Allegations of genocide in the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip or Genocide accusations in the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip Selfstudier (talk) 09:11, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support for "Gaza genocide question" and other alternatives. "Allegations" is a misleading term because it's not just that journalists and whistleblowers are alleging genocide anymore. It's a question high-profile enough that it's being actively investigated by the ICJ and Israel is facing growing scrutiny for it on an international scale. This article's scope includes all of that scrutiny and investigation, and so is not limited to allegations anymore. PBZE (talk) 00:00, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support for "Accusations of genocide in Gaza" - more concise that other alternatives proposed. Allegations should be removed from the title. We're past the point of this being mere allegations, the accusations have been formally presented in court. - Ïvana (talk) 01:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At some point we will need to list all of the suggested titles above and ping all of the members who responded here in conjunction, in order to see which of the alternatives that each of us respectively find acceptable, after which we select the option with the most votes, as the voting is currently all over the place here. David A (talk) 04:14, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Work for the closer in the first instance. Selfstudier (talk) 09:43, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we should have a re-vote with the ability to choose up to three or so acceptable options instead, as we really should move this page to use a stronger worded title. David A (talk) 13:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Something like accusations of genocide in Gaza oder Accusations of genocide in Gaza by Israel The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 13:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your second option seems good to me. David A (talk) 14:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No specific options for the title was suggested when the RfC was started. Which makes it neally impossibbe to judge the consensus by looking at different titles. I would think that just keeping status quo would be the best. My very best wishes (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uh huh, but below you have said 1 or 2 if you have to choose. Selfstudier (talk) 21:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Three options

@Paul Vaurie, Simonm223, Kashmiri, Entropyandvodka, Chaotic Enby, The Great Mule of Eupatoria, Jerdle, Esolo5002, CybJubal, Iskandar323, Levivich, Unbandito, RodRabelo7, Chaotic Enby, Hogo-2020, Selfstudier, PBZE, Ïvana, and Howardcorn33: Going by the above discussion, it seems like we currently have three main options for an improved title for this page:

Option 1: Gaza genocide question, which has a precedent with Holodomor genocide question.

Option 2: Gaza genocide accusation, which has a precedent with Palestinian genocide accusation.

Option 3: Gaza genocide, which has a precedent with Tamil genocide, an event that very few sources, and no countries or international bodies, consider a genocide, meaning that there is likely much stronger support for classifying what the Israeli government is currently doing in this manner.

Which of the above alternatives do you prefer, and which ones do you find acceptable?

I personally prefer Option 3, but consider either of the other two options to at least be improvements to this page's current title. David A (talk) 05:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 whilst “accusation” makes sense as Israel is officially accused, this is putting it on the level of “Palestinian genocide accusation”, which is referring to a long, decades long struggle with elements that can be considered ‘genocide’, like the nakba or Gaza wars. Gaza genocide is the best fit here, because we are talking about an 8- month period where we have seen more Palestinians being systematically killed than in every conflict between Israel and Palestine in the past 76 years combined The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3. Like kashmiri said, you will usually find ethnonym + genocide. I'm not gonna go through all of the sources that already mention or allude to a genocide occurring in Gaza, including the UN; anyone commenting here is, I assume, familiar with them. We're already past the point of this being a mere accusation or allegation amongst select groups. Walking through eggshells and using expressions like allegations/accusations/question etc contradicts the reality where this is being judged in an international court and there is a consensus amongst experts that this fits the definition of a genocide. The main subject of this article is the genocide occurring in Gaza right now, whether people believe that it's real or not. - Ïvana (talk) 06:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3, as it's a term widely discussed in multiple reliable sources and thus merits a Wikipedia article. We need to keep in mind that article titles do not have to be uncontroversial, or even true, as long as they are WP:NOTABLE terms (examples: Extraterrestrial life, Homeopathy, Tamil genocide, etc.). Here, I have little doubt that "Gaza genocide" is a notable encyclopaedic term. — kashmīrī ^TALK 07:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 may in fact be reasonable at this stage. I think option 2 may have expired. We now have a stacked ICJ case, UN special rapporteur assessment of genocide, a UN investigative finding of "extermination", genocide scholars, US state department testimonies, AI genocide story, you name it! At this point, the sheer diversity of testimonies is meaningful. Option 1 would be my second option as a step back from option 3, but less misaligned than option 2 at this point, which may now be straying on the conservative side. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Palestinian genocide accusation, if that is "expired", then it needs to change title first. Selfstudier (talk) 08:34, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is a logical corollary. I think that title should now be at question - not least since the question is raised over a series of events where the assertion finds varying degrees of support. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:00, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1 or 2: I believe question would be more appropriate but a lot of people are favoring accusation, which I consider an acceptable word. If the Tamil genocide article actually has very few sources or recognition, then it should be renamed also, as was done with Uyghur genocide to Persecution of Uyghurs in China. In addition, this article specifically covers the academic, legal, and political discourse around the applicability of the word "genocide" to the IDF's actions in Gaza, similar to how Holodomor and Holodomor genocide question are separate articles. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 08:47, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Howardcorn33 Editors at Tamil genocide successfully argued that the article should not be renamed as "allegation" or "accusation", primarily because these are not terms being discussed in literature. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 per all above, I don't have anything more to add than what has already been said. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 10:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Option 3. there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Stephan rostie (talk) 13:06, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Option 1 first choice. Open to changing my mind but I'm not seeing Option 3 yet.~~ The UNHR report does not say there is a "consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza." That line is written by Alene Bouranova, writer for BU Today -- the magazine of Boston University. With all due respect to Ms. Bouranova, I do not take her word as authoritative on this issue because she's not a scholar, her article isn't scholarship or even mainstream journalism, a university magazine is generally a pretty weak source for anything IMO, especially for such an WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim (and not independent of the report). The report itself says, in its own voice, that Israel is committing genocidal acts. I find that very reliable and persuasive. However, I would want to know that this one single report isn't the only scholarship of its kind or the first of its kind to state without qualification on behalf of a large group of scholars that genocide is happening. AFAIK it's the only one like it, with previous similar things being of the nature of "open letters" and the like, but not necessarily "hard scholarship," as it were. So that makes it "genocide question" in my mind, not just "genocide." If there are other reports like the UNHR report I'd be interested in reviewing them, if anyone wants to drop some links. Second choice: Option 3; Option 2 is third choice because I do think the world has moved past "accusation," just not necessarily all the way to "genocide" in wikivoice. Levivich (talk) 22:21, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some links to offical statements that you might find useful: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

However, I am uncertain about how useful the three ICJ links are. David A (talk) 11:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sharing those. The ICJ sources reflect that there is a genocide prosecution, but the court has not issued a finding that Israel committed genocide, although they took the case (finding it's a plausible allegation). That the ICJ took the case but hasn't decided yet is, in my view, one reason to call it "question" and not "accusation" or just "genocide."

The UN report, on the other hand, rather clearly comes out saying it's genocide. Query: is the UN an RS? I'm honestly not sure. It's not scholarship, it's not journalism, but it's not exactly an advocacy group or think tank, either. Levivich (talk) 17:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to Israel, the UN, and pretty much everyone else that disagrees with it, is antisemitic, which likely means it is a reliable source or at least, it reflects what a majority of UN members think. Of course, the US exercises its veto in favor of Israel with alarming frequency so I guess they would not count it as a reliable source either. I tend to view it the same way as Amnesty, its reports need to be taken seriously and not just politically dismissed without reference to the detail. Selfstudier (talk) 18:01, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With the exception of courts, governments aren't RS, period end of story. Isn't the UN a government (whereas the ICJ is a court)? Levivich (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think one needs to distinguish between the various organs (UN, UNGA, UNHRC, etc), and resolutions and reports of them. I wouldn't pay much attention to a single country delegate for instance but I would pay some attention to a passed UNGA resolution and even more to one from the UNSC (who are the court's enforcers if you like, but still subject to political veto). Selfstudier (talk) 18:29, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah IMO neither the GA nor SC are WP:RS, but it's a good point that certain UN organs, and UNHRC would be one of them, could be. Or more specifically, that reports or other works authored or published by such organs might be. Which leads me to my next question: do we have any WP:USEBYOTHERS evidence for this UNHRC report? Levivich (talk) 00:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well it has been stated as having received broad support at the UN. And yes, it has already entered the ranks of journal-cited sources. This includes already being cited in the Journal of Genocide Research. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:23, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is AJ and a measured report from the BBC. I couldn't find any reports from US media. Selfstudier (talk) 09:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 first choice, option 1 second choice, option 2 third choice. Thank you to the editors who answered my questions and posted more sources above. I've come around after doing some more research and reading. The WP:BESTSOURCES for whether Israel's attack on Gaza is a genocide are going to be genocide studies scholars and journals, the more recent, the better. After perusing sources posted here and searching Google Scholar for works published in 2024, "it's a genocide" says Amos Goldberg [6] in an op-ed, Nahla Abdo in Studies in Political Economy [7], and in the Journal of Genocide Research: Martin Shaw [8], Raz Segal and Luigi Daniele [9], Mark Levene [10], Didier Fassin [11], Zoé Samudzi [12], Nimer Sultany [13], Uğur Ümit Üngör [14], Yoav Di-Capua [15], Abdelwahab El-Affendi [16], and Elyse Semerdjian [17]. Also the UNHR report and UNHRC report. "Maybe a genocide" says Omar McDoom [18] and Shmuel Lederman [19]. Within the field of genocide studies, in 2024, it seems there is in fact a consensus of scholars that this is genocide, with a few who say maybe, and nobody that I've found who says it's not. Levivich (talk) 05:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was Susan Akram, director of BU Law’s International Human Rights Clinic, who stated that: "there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza." Rainsage (talk) 16:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What the executive summary of the primary source that she is referring to actually says is "This report documents its findings ["we conclude that Israel’s actions in and regarding Gaza since October 7, 2023, violate the Genocide Convention"] by drawing from a diverse range of credible sources, including reports by United Nations and aid agencies, investigations by human rights organizations, media reports, and public statements and testimonies." so she has put per own words to that, but it is not that different, when all is said and done. Selfstudier (talk) 17:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to clarify that it was actually one of the report's expert contributors who made that statement, since Levivich attributed it to the BU journalist. Rainsage (talk) 17:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out; you're right, I missed that this line was in the Q&A part, and is a quote from Akram. (You'd think the "#Susan Akram comments" section on this talk page would have tipped me off, but nope, went right over my head.) I've struck my incorrect statements above. Levivich (talk) 19:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1/2: While I consider this a genocide in line with the literature, frameworks, scholarship, and statements produced by the majority of relevant experts in this matter, as I detailed in the previous title change discussion, this article has built it's scope to be the discussion/argumentation around labelling Gaza as a genocide. Should Wikipedia move inline with the scholarship in time, a separate article being created would be the best option. This new article on the genocide would include information that currently exists across a range of articles currently covering varying aspects of the genocide.

As to the specificity of 1 or 2, as I read it, there are two ways this could be split. The first way is a Majority-Minority split on the popular opinion held. That is per the examples given, option 1 is a question as it’s questioning the majority popular opinion of the event (it is a genocide), where option 2 is the accusation of genocide when the popular opinion is that it is not.

The second way is a temporal split, where option 1 is used in events that are concluded so it's analysing retrospectively, whereas option 2 is an accusation as it covers ongoing events. Either of these ways in splitting it would suggest we title this article as Gaza genocide accusation. Though I hold no strong opinion as to the choice between 1 and 2. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 or Option 1, in that order, per the above. I would like to note that Black genocide in the United States and transgender genocide are also examples of article titles similar to option 3. PBZE (talk) 19:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are very interesting parallel examples that echo the case of the Tamil genocide. I guess the point that these make is that there is a broadly consistent pattern of usage on Wikipedia: that if a suspected genocide is sufficiently discussed by scholars, it is a topic, and shouldn't be overbearingly couched in the trappings of "accusation". Iskandar323 (talk) 05:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1 or Option 2: As all of the people here know that there is no actual genocide (be honest with yourself) creating option 3 will be a blatant lie. It's ridicules how people can even suggest it. Israel warns about it's attacks and if terrorists of Hamas would not use human shields and would not count terrorists as regular people there would be much less victims. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 02:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coolaid is strong stuff, for sure. But for anyone who has actually taken the latest UN report seriously, handwaving away the serious breaches of international law in this conflict is poor taste. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1 (first choice) or Option 2 (second choice). This is about the question or accusations of genocide. I don't see votes supporting Option 3 grounded enough to justify wikivoicing "genocide". Like Cdjp1 says, if scholarship eventually makes this a case of "genocide", then Wikipedia should move inline with that, but we are not there at the moment. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:38, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 Because of two main reasons:

The term "Gaza genocide question" better reflects the ongoing significant uncertainty and investigation by experts in various fields regarding whether the events in Gaza constitute genocide. This term allows the inclusion of diverse opinions and research within the article.

Using the term "Gaza genocide question" highlights Wikipedia's commitment to neutrality and objective discussion. This title avoids making definitive statements and allows readers to be exposed to all existing opinions and research.Eladkarmel (talk) 09:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1, these are mere claims, rejected by most of the world. Some here cite sources as proof there is genocide, but for every source given there are maybe x5 others that say it is a total invention. At this point this is unverified. I think the current title is fine, and if we change it, the only option that really follows WP:NPOV and WP:VOICE would be "Gaza genocide question". HaOfa (talk) 17:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 – I think this page should be moved to the title Gaza genocide. The current title and options 1 and 2 aren't for disambiguation, but for casting MOS:DOUBT. Also, the content of the article should largely remain the same if the topic was changed from 'alleged genocide' to 'genocide'. And regarding making separate articles for the genocide and its denial/acceptance (similar to Armenian genocide > Armenian genocide denial), I find that the two would likely have a lot of WP:Overlap—a reason to merge them. FunLater (talk) 00:25, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 per above. Gaza genocide is a notable term that is extensively discussed in reliable sources. Skitash (talk) 00:36, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 per above. MOS:DOUBT makes it clear that alleged is "appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined". In this case authorities the world over have determined this to be happening, and so Option 3 is the most appropriate choice. Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:10, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2 or 3 per all above. Question is not an appropriate usage here.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 00:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 or 2, per WP:POVTITLE. We shouldn't be taking a stance on this highly contentious question until the question is settled, and it is likely it won't be until the ICJ issues its final ruling. When it does, we can change the title, either to "Gaza Genocide" or to something that makes it clear a genocide didn't take place, depending on what the result is. BilledMammal (talk) 06:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our article titling is not determined by what the ICJ does or doesn't rule, it is determined by what reliable sources are saying or not saying. Selfstudier (talk) 08:38, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1 (or 2), with a strongest possible opposition to Option 3. There is insufficient RS coverage for 3 as an affirmative title, and there is insufficient usage for such a POV title by reliable source. In addition, we should not change to this title prior to an IJC decision and it’s analysis by scholarship. FortunateSons (talk) 09:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3 is indisputably a POV title, and as such would require a significant majority of sources to consider it a genocide, something neither reflected in reporting about the war or the ICJ case nor scholarship, which generally discusses it as controversial, not as clear. While there are other questionable titles, in that case, they are a) the overwhelmingly used name and b) appropriately qualified in the lead (ex.: Transgender genocide), something that isn’t the case here. Therefore, and in line with the scope of the article, which is focussed on the discussion of the question of genocide and not primarily on the actions committed, the title should reflect the content. FortunateSons (talk) 10:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're wrong about the scholarship. See the list in my vote above. Levivich (talk) 11:21, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is “just” expert RS and not scholarship (I’m away from home rn), but this is a renown professor of international law saying “not genocide” in a(centrist/center-left) German news paper of record [1]. Also 2 more from Switzerland.[2] FortunateSons (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I recall reading that Germany has outright literally illegalised calling the ongoing massacre a genocide, so if any professor of international law said anything else, wouldn't he or she, and the newspaper staff that allowed the statement to be published, be arrested? David A (talk) 11:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure about that? Because I’m 90% sure that you are wrong. FortunateSons (talk) 12:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I checked, and it seems like I likely misremembered. There seem to have been quite harsh crackdowns on people who express such sentiments, and at least one unsuccessful attempt to illegalise it though: [20] [21] [22] David A (talk) 12:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are some “crackdowns” based on pre-existing laws (loosely translated as “public incitement to hate” and “use of illegal symbols”), but that was focussed on specific slogans, not scientific debate. Those laws are regularly used against the far-right, and use against other groups considered extremist is in line with the purpose of the law. Of course, specific use cases are always controversial. The actual case of the slogan is more complicated than the article may have lead you to believe, but that’s off-topic. FortunateSons (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Germany's anti-Palestinianism and suppression of free speech in recent times would be comical if it weren't so sad and one trusts that the German courts will remedy these deficiencies in due course, as they have done in the past. Selfstudier (talk) 12:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn’t this [28]? And I wouldn’t bet on the courts on this one, I have talked to a few scholars who say that the higher courts may approve some of the new applications. But I guess we will see. FortunateSons (talk) 13:13, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The crime of genocide under international law (which has one specific definition) is not the same thing as genocide according to genocide studies (multiple definitions, some broader, some narrower). But even if we count those 3 scholars as saying "not genocide", it doesn't outweigh the dozen+ who say it is. You'd need a dozen+ just to show an even split of opinion. Levivich (talk) 12:16, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is primarily concerned with the legal side, particularly the lead. I’m happy to look for more, but I think the question of scope (basically: what do we do if international law says it isn’t, but genocide studies say it is) may be a problem we should focus on before it becomes an urgency problem.

I might look for some more sources later, hoping that it won’t be closed too soon. FortunateSons (talk) 12:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is something under discussion in other genocide articles (mostly ones that deal with looking at genocide overall), and for most of those discussions so far, while there is push back, most of the editors in discussion are being supportive of accepting the opinion of relevant scholars to label events as genocide, when there is no legal ruling. As of yet we have no instance where a court has ruled something is not genocide and yet scholarship holds that it is, we only have cases where courts have not adjudicated on the matter. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, this is a specific issue when using a broader-than-legal view in a case where we will likely get an ICJ judgement, particularly if it were to favour Israel. From a meta-perspective, there is also the question of best use of editor time, considering that a judgement stating that it isn’t a genocide would require a major rework of the article to allow for the due weight RS and scholarship undoubtedly emerging from it.

Would you agree that in case of “ICJ says it’s not, genocide scholars say it is” due weight would likely be towards the legal view? FortunateSons (talk) 14:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would state that wikipedia would tend towards legalism on the matter, even if doing so is fundamentally wrong and flawed. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with it being wrong , but I believe that you are right about the outcome in this case. That would apply to the title as well, we would either remain at or change back to a hypothetical one? FortunateSons (talk) 15:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How does Mandy Rice-Davies apply to my view that an application of the ideology of legalism on this matter is wrong? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It applies to me, because my law background makes me trend towards a legal view of everything FortunateSons (talk) 17:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah ok. Yes, as Wikipedia is structured, and the make-up of contributors, (as I previously said) the article will tend to legalism on the matter. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, legal analysis tends to be a bit more represented compared to other disciplines. FortunateSons (talk) 17:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I may be so bold to suggest, at this early stage (as we are unlikely to see a court decision on this within the next five years), should we come to a point that the courts rule that it is not genocide, while scholarship (especially from genocide studies) holds it is (at least in the majority published opinion, as is the current case), the court ruling should be mentioned in position "a" of the lede, followed immediately in position "b" a comment about the (stark) disagreement from specialist scholars. This should be amenable to most editors.

With this possibly being the first case of such a disagreement, it would probably be pertinent to seek a mass discussion from editors, including the top contributors from genocide articles, to hash out a guide for subsequent use. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this split is a generally good idea, and the creation of a “future-proof” guideline is definitely useful.

I disagree with b being the overwhelming domain for genocide scholars. With all respect to the profession, the legal and political/historical analysis should (insofar as supported by RS) be about equally represented. FortunateSons (talk) 19:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the opposite. If genocide scholars say it's genocide, Wikipedia says it's genocide. Doesn't matter what a court says. Levivich (talk) 15:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the courts analysis will often be followed by scholars of international law and media RS, and those tend to be due. FortunateSons (talk) 15:16, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More scholars saying no or unlikely:

Hartwig and Müller

Khan

Wiese (meh but counts IMO)

Platt

Kittel (from ‘23)

Feldmann (don’t love the source, but wanted to stick with the theme)

Scholars saying unclear/disputed/too close to call:

Pfeifer/Weipert-Fenner/Williams,

Goldmann

Schabas

This is only german language and only a quick search, but it’s decent coverage for no or disputed IMO. Does someone object to those?

This is of course just me pointing and waiving at some sources that I found in a cursory google search, but if we want to actually use a non-neutral title prior to an ICJ judgement, the burden is one those advocating for it to appropriately analyse and weigh the sources to show that it’s broadly considered a genocide and not a discussion about genocide by an overwhelming majority of scholars and RS. FortunateSons (talk) 13:46, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Too quick a search. I only read the last one because I'm already familiar with William Schabas's views. Firstly, the comment goes back to December, and is specifically related to South Africa's genocide case against Israel. He does state that the SA presentation was very plausible (Um mit dem Antrag erfolgreich zu sein, muss Südafrika alleinig nachweisen, dass seine Argumentation plausibel ist. Und das hat es meiner Meinung nach sehr effektiv getan.). Schabas is reserved about using genocide (he doesn't exclude it) but he is quite clear that a Israel 'threat of genocide' existed already at that time, and that the US was obliged under international law to step in and endeavour to pretent that occurring. I would not be surprised if other examples showed similar problems, but I must catch Italy being thrashed by Switzerland. It remains true that scholars of the historical phenomen of genocide (who don't evaluate these things in terms of thestrict reading of available international law but include other considerations) are agreed by a large majority that what is happening is genocide, in a more general sense.Nishidani (talk) 18:01, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sourcing discussion below may be of interest to you. After the game, I would be curious if you consider me placing him in the (informal) category of unclear/disputed/too close to call is something you would consider improper? He’s not clearly saying yes, but the methodology is somewhat flawed, which is why it was done away with and replaced with translated quotes in the collapsed section.

I think you unintentionally changed the structure, if it’s not just my mobile device, I would appreciate if you restored my signature FortunateSons (talk) 18:08, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is of course just me pointing and waiving at some sources that I found in a cursory google search, but if we want to actually use a non-neutral title prior to an ICJ judgement, the burden is one those advocating for it to appropriately analyse and weigh the sources to show that it’s broadly considered a genocide and not a discussion about genocide by an overwhelming majority of scholars and RS. FortunateSons (talk) 13:46, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We are not actually trying to show that it is a genocide, which is indeed a matter for the ICJ in the final analysis, simply that it is a topic of discussion in scholarly circles, which in fact, your sourcing shows that to be the case, even in Germany. Just for my interest, am I right in assuming that you only looked for German language sources saying it was not/unlikely or is it that there are no German sources saying it is/likely? Selfstudier (talk) 14:10, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I looked for specific names I was familiar with (but I’m obviously biased for those, personally preferring specific political and legal views), and used “gaza genozid professor”, “ist gaza genozid professor” and “gaza kein genozid professor” as search terms, as far as I recall. However, I did indeed select sources that best made my point, which was to show that it was discussed as a potential or theoretical topic, not a clear genocide, as a counterpoint for Levivich’s search.

There are probably some that say that it clearly is (though no-one mainstream, as far as I’m aware). However, the media may be contributing to that. If you want, I’m happy to check what someone specific is saying? I can particularly look through Spiegel and similar left-leaning sites, we may have better luck there. FortunateSons (talk) 14:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still working through all the articles recently published in the Journal of Genocide Research (JGR), so would be great if you have the capacity to add these German sources to the article. Though, I also want to note, of the articles published so far in the JGR, there is almost unanimous opinion that this is a genocide. So while the dissent from other relevant specialists should be given due weight, we need to appropriately give weight to the articles published as part of the fora: Israel-Palestine: Atrocity Crimes and the Crisis of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Gaza: International Humanitarian Law and Genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, I might find some time, but I’m pretty swamped in my personal life, so I would of course not object to someone else adding more. I might look more throughly for legal views too, once I can actually get to my computer with access to Beck, Juris ans others. On a general note, we should be cautious with over-relying on any specific journal, particularly looking at the pages of the editor in chief and the journal in this case. FortunateSons (talk) 14:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While that is true, in the English language realm, the JGR is the pre-eminent journal for genocide scholarship. Other journals that specialise in genocide scholarship include:

Genocide Studies and Prevention: An International Journal
Holocaust and Genocide Studies
Genocide Studies International

As said, my focus has been on JGR due to the fora they currently have on-going. Other eminent journals from other fields (history, law, conflict studies, international relations, medicine) should also be looked at, but to my knowledge, none have so far published articles, and such scholars are instead providing their short immediate thoughts to popular press. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification, some medical journals have published pieces from various medical professionals, but they have been more re-iterating things like UN warnings, and detailing the need for the medical profession to speak out against the mass death occurring. I have previously/already added a few of these to this article where they are appropriate. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Verfassungsblog may have something, they’re generally pretty quick. I will look into it and other German-language sources, probably after the move request, but this was “just” a search for the sake of the name, so that would probably take hours or days of actual work. FortunateSons (talk) 15:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More:

”quite strong evidence” for incidement, but “difficult to prove” for genocide Herik (Dutch article linked)

Cohen and Shany (would count as no

Ambos (more just incitement)

Burke-White (too close to call/vague)

Walter

This should be more than were originally presented, but I may have lost count. FortunateSons (talk) 21:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For chronological ordering, ease of reference (as some of these are from as far back as October last year):

Kittel - October 2023
Ambos - December 2023
Wiese - January 2024
Platt - January 2024
Schabas - January 2024
Herik - January 2024
Cohen and Shany - January 2024
Walter - January 2024
Burke-White - February 2024
Feldmann - March 2024
Pfeifer/Weipert-Fenner/Williams - March 2024
Goldmann - April 2024
Hartwig and Müller - May 2024
Khan - June 2024

As a message to anyone reading this, if you can please add all of these into the article appropriately. I may eventually get round to it, but my focus is currently on English language journal articles. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much. From my comment above, there is also

Talmon - April 2024

Sassoli and Diggelmann - May 2024 FortunateSons (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I'm kicking myself a bit for not thinking to look for German language sources previously, considering how regularly my edits and research projects involve using German and other non-English sources. Oh well. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don’t, that way I got the opportunity to productively add to the article (once some take takes the time to actually source and cite them all) :)

Looking through German legal sources is also often difficult, I did the easy part first by using Google, having to actually use the digital libraries can be unpleasant. FortunateSons (talk) 22:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also fine with new option 4, or closure due to recency of the last discussion. FortunateSons (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 This is in line with the Tamil Genocide. SKAG123 (talk) 18:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 I agree with Levivich. I was also initially skeptical and assumed there was a lot more dispute amongst scholars. But the expert scholarship and reports that I have read do seem to overwhelmingly consider this probable or actual genocide. Both of the 2 citations in this wikipedia article for the assertion that there is a dispute are more than 6 months old. Rainsage (talk) 18:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you have a chance to look at the ones I cited? FortunateSons (talk) 19:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 as per others. Much less academically certain articles like Tamil genocide, Black genocide in the United States and Transgender genocide all do not have "accusation" or "question" in the title. MarkiPoli (talk) 07:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2, followed by Option 1 as a second choice, as we should not imply by the title of the article that Wikipedia considers there to be a genocide going on in Gaza. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 I have nothing more to add than what has been said. Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 21:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 slightly, then Option 2 The third is too strong for what is a fairly debateable question, and if anything, it's the Tamil article that should be toned down. Don't feel particularly strongly over 1 vs. 2, so whatever better helps form a hopefully enduring consensus is the one I prefer. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 21:35, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And, I should note, the very nature of the question itself is a big part of the article. I am not participating further; I only commented as I was pinged, and this is an area I regretfully find myself in. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 21:48, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 per concise common name, that of "Genocide in Gaza" or "Gaza genocide" as the topic. Whether it's officially recognised as such by every country/scholar or not seems irrelevant, as the topic is still discussed and referenced as such. CNC (talk) 22:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ABSOLUTE, CATEGORICAL REJECTION of option 3 — this should NOT be called Gaza genocide. This is, at best, editors not understanding that only mere accusations of genocide have been brought up in the Israel–Hamas war, and at worst, editors wanting to push a pro-Palestine narrative by categorizing the atrocities as genocide. Although I trust people to take their bias out, I feel that some have let their hearts drive their decision making (and their argumentation) in this discussion. The truth, whether kind or not, is that it has not been established by any widely-respected international organization that this is an actual genocide. That's why Palestinian genocide accusation is an accusation, not called "Palestinian genocide". My original intent in the RM was changing the latter part of the title, "2023 Israeli attack on Gaza", to something else, since the attack had gone past 2023...
So, I will support option 1 or 2 as above, as it is a matter of debate and discussion whether this is a genocide. I'm not saying it's not, just that there is too much debate for the few of us to come to a conclusion here, as we're not scholars. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:57, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We discuss sources here, not other editors. The term "Gaza genocide" appears in a large number of reliable sources and is thus presumably a valid encyclopaedic term, one that a global encyclopaedia should certainly include. It's perfectly possible to write an article about the Gaza genocide without much bias – much like, say, Armenian genocide (even though some Turks still complain about it, naturally). Overall, I fail to understand why you berate other editors who simply refer to reliable sources. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kashmiri: Please ping. I agree that "Gaza genocide" is a presumably valid encyclopedic term. That does not mean it should be the title of the article. Because it's not the title doesn't mean it can't be discussed in the hypothetical "Gaza genocide question" article. I also agree that it's possible to write an article about the Gaza genocide question/accusations without much bias. However, the bias lies in calling it a genocide, when it's clearly not agreed that it is a genocide. Armenian genocide is not a fair comparison; virtually only the Turks (and a few others) exhibit Armenian genocide denial, and everyone else says it's a genocide. There are far more who are skeptical of an Israeli genocide against Gaza Palestinians than just Israel and its close allies. Respectfully, there are just as many reliable sources saying it's not been thoroughly established that it is a genocide as there are saying it is a genocide. We should wait further before categorizing the observed atrocities as genocide. Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Paul Vaurie: The issue is, the article isn't about any question; it is about the developments that a large number of sources term as Gaza genocide. Wikipedia also offers articles about hypotethical topics. As an example, we don't wait for academic consensus before naming an article Anti-gravity, or try to frame its subject as "Anti-gravity question". As long as a term is subject of multiple reliabe publications, it's an encyclopaedic topic. By the way, "Gaza genocide question" fails WP:COMMONNAME. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

editors not understanding that only mere accusations of genocide have been brought up In my vote above, I linked to a dozen genocide studies scholars saying it's genocide (plus there's the BU report and the UNHRC report). as we're not scholars Some of us are (not me), as are many of the sources cited in this discussion. Levivich (talk) 23:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 As noted by others, the titling of this article without the words accusation or question will not preclude it from continuing to include sources arguing against the genocide classification. Given the international community's overwhelming recognition of the ongoing events as an active genocide, Options 1 and 2 unnecessarily set the article's tone toward doubt over the event, rather than allowing it to comprehensively cover its content. BluePenguin18 🐧 ( 💬 ) 02:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose option 3, since it's a very clear WP:POVNAME and WP:POVNAMING violation. It's not for us to determine whether a genocide is occurring; really the only questions here are

Whether genocide is a neutral term. There may be cases where a genocide is so obvious that there's no serious (non-fringe) disagreement about it; we're quite far from that. The article itself mentions opposing views from quite a few notable scholars, which I won't rehash here.
Whether "Gaza genocide" is a clear WP:COMMONNAME, used by a significant majority of English-language sources (in their own voices), in which case non-neutral titles are sometimes acceptable. Note that User:Levivich's point about WP:BESTSOURCES doesn't apply here, since academic or legal authorities don't dictate WP:COMMONNAMEs.

Policy violations aside, I think it's telling that approximately zero mainstream news sources, which tend to have similar aspirations of neutrality, are using "Gaza genocide" in their own voice. That should give us serious pause here. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 04:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a mischaracterisation on both accounts. First, the terminology is actively disputed by almost imperceptibly few genocide scholars. Secondly, while "Gaza genocide" quite possibly is a common name, that isn't Levivich's principal assertion, which is instead that it is the consensus assessment and terminology in the relevant academic community – an assessment of consensus which WP:BESTSOURCES is very much applicable to. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you clarify which part you don't agree with? Is your position that (1) "Gaza genocide" is neutral, (2) "Gaza genocide" is a WP:COMMONNAME (or effectively a proper name), or that there's some other reason WP:POVNAME and WP:POVNAMING wouldn't apply?

I'm not convinced that there's a consensus among scholars here, but my broader point is that that's not the question we should be asking, since the sources with the most academic or legal authority do not dictate common names. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the topic is the assertion of genocide by genocide scholars, the name of said genocide is the neutral term. What descriptive alternatives do you believe exist to an event being termed a genocide by genocide scholars? The only alternatives would surely be euphemistic. If sources are not discussing the topic of genocide then they are not discussing the topic. If they are discussing the topic, they are presumably either in agreement with or denial of the validity of the terminology. And even denials count towards the currency of the terminology. Regardless of whether the topic enjoys an affirming consensus or disputation, the mere discussion of the topic affirms its terminological validity. Ditto for the Tamil genocide, Black genocide in the United States and Transgender genocide, as others have noted. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like an extraordinary claim to say that "genocide" is neutral. If there was a very strong consensus that the label was accurate, then perhaps a case can be made that no reasonable doubt exists, and the label is so obviously factual as to be neutral. I think we're extremely far from that, with plenty of notable scholars (a very significant minority) rejecting the genocide accusation. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 23:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The label is pretty obviously factual at this point. We have genocidal acts livestreamed to the world, perpetrated by leaders who have openly made genocidal statements, with assessments from genocide experts that it is a genocide. Since you suggest that you have drawn up your own source list, who are your "plenty of notable scholars" (expecting relevant ones in the field of genocide scholars) saying otherwise? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As well as with assessments from experts like Dov Waxman, Ben Kiernan and others that it is not a genocide. While they may be the minority, it's a significant minority containing quite a few respected scholars. In light of that, I really can't see how "genocide" could be considered neutral here. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have either of those two commented on the matter since November? Iskandar323 (talk) 06:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may be interested in the papers published in the Journal of Genocide Research as part of the fora:

Gaza: International Humanitarian Law and Genocide
Israel-Palestine: Atrocity Crimes and the Crisis of Holocaust and Genocide Studies

The majority of them are published as open access articles. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3, because it's more concise and accurate. As shown by others in this thread, most genocide scholars – who are by far the most reliable sources on this topic – think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Therefore it's not really even a "question" any more, and it certainly is more than just an "accusation". Naturally there's a lot of politically motivated denialism from non-academic sources, but that applies to other genocides too, and shouldn't be given much weight. —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 07:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the future we'll probably need an article about Gaza genocide denial. —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 07:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few sources on the denial itself have already emerged. [23] [24] Iskandar323 (talk) 07:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2, because its much more accurate than option 3, and much more natural sounding than option 1. TimeEngineer (talk) 07:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 I was pinged above as someone who's taken part in other discussions of genocide coverage on Wikipedia. I feel while there is a lack of consensus in reliable sources, we should go with "question" over just "Gaza genocide". It is not for Wikipedia editors to make these judgements: we have to follow RS. There are several important RS calling this "genocide", but there is clearly also significant pushback on that. "Question" allows us to focus on presenting what RS say. There are other articles that are called "X genocide" where there is less evidence for a genocide, but WP:OTHERSTUFF applies. I don't like "accusation" as it implies, to me, that the accusation may be false. "Question" better summarises an ongoing debate. If the balance of RS shifts, we can re-assess. Bondegezou (talk) 10:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Projects Israel, Palestine and their collaboration has been re-notified, WP:Death has been notifiedFortunateSons (talk) 10:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 per Ïvana, Iskandar323 and others who said it all. M.Bitton (talk) 14:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This is not a valid RfC. It must include keeping status quo title as one of options. Otherwise, this is a loaded question like "Did you kill your wife or your neigbor? Please choose!". I think the title, whatever it might be, should include a reference to the specific event, i.e. 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza, rather than just "Gaza". My very best wishes (talk) 16:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It must include keeping status quo title as one of options We're well past that. Selfstudier (talk) 16:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Past where? Do we have a properly closed RfC saying that the current title must be changed? If not, this is an improper RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 16:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a reason you are the only one saying that. Selfstudier (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen this in several RfCs. Someone does not the like current version and therefore proposes several alternative versions, all of which fit his POV. Includiing the current (satus quo) version is always required. My very best wishes (talk) 21:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that this is an RM, right? That originally just asked the question what the title should be. Selfstudier (talk) 21:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The present title is a MOS:ALLEGED, WP:CONCISION-flouter. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1 or 2 if one have to chose. My very best wishes (talk) 21:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1 or 2 per BilledMammal; strongly oppose option 3, which is a very WP:POVNAME and makes it sound like the question is settled. I prefer option 1, because it focuses on the uncertainty, the question; rather than accusations. Cremastra (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have also pinged WP Human Rights as they explicitly mention genocides as part of their project remit. @FortunateSons: I've also formatted your messages to the other projects to provide a direct link for the mentioned "Three options" sub-section of discussion. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you FortunateSons (talk) 18:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 or 1 We shoudl be following high quality sources and there are plenty of academic and other expert publication that call this event a genocide. Curiously, i couldn't find many that explicitly deny that this event is a genocide likely because the scholarly debate of genocide in Palastine focuses on stuff that happend before october 7th in all of Palestine, not just whats going on in Gaza since october. That said i don't object to leaving this open by using option 1 while we wait for the ICJ rulling—blindlynx 19:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that i'm weary of trying to apply the 1948 definition of genocide to news articles or other publications when high quality sources don't explicitly weigh in one way or the other, it's synthy at best and is why we changed the list criteria over at list of genocides—blindlynx 20:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 per sourcing provided by Levivich. Happy to change by !vote if enough sourcing to the contrary is provided.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:17, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per this comment by FortunateSons. The German sources you seem to have presented as news sources, which are decidedly less reliable than articles published in peer-reviewed academic journals. WP:SOURCETYPES says "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." We need to be mindful of WP:FALSEBALANCE - we can't equate less reliable sources to more reliable ones.

While drafting an article that I'm working on, I came across yet another scholarly source that treats the Gaza genocide as a matter of fact.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for reviewing them. Of course, news papers (excluding Verfassungsblog, which does have some review policy) are often worse sources than peer-reviewed content. In this case, (particularly for the sources outside of the big mainstream newspapers) it’s less about the news orgs and more about the professors they cite. FortunateSons (talk) 19:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vice regent: Jamshidi is on my list, it WILL be added to the article. I've just finished up my latest university module, and I am reading through the literature I've got for this as fast as I can, but I do also work full time, so unfortunately I'm not as fast as I would like.

As to @FortunateSons:'s sources, from the quick look I did on some of the articles, while they aren't publish in academic journals (which I'd really like), they are reputable sites, and we have statements and quotes from other scholars from similar quality sources already in the article. I have agreed to look at them in more detail tomorrow to provide a second opinion on them.

As a note, for now, we can have more detail from scholars et al. from such sources, but as time progresses and the academic literature increases in size, we would reduce the detail, and likely keep the citations for contextualisation of the development of the discussion. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 or 2 per WP:POVNAMING; other articles named in the format "X genocide" that are not widely recognized to definitely be genocides should be renamed too. Crossroads ^-talk- 00:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the policy you referenced: "if a name is widely used in reliable sources (particularly those written in English) and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers, it may be used even though some could regard it as biased. For example, the widely used names 'Boston Massacre', 'Teapot Dome scandal', and 'Jack the Ripper' are legitimate ways of referring to the subjects in question despite appearing to pass judgment." FunLater (talk) 07:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3. Unlike Holodomor genocide question, given the ICJ case, it is not a question if the actions Israel is standing trial for constitutes a genocide or not, so option 1 is right out. Option 2 is a strong contender, but it isn't as if Israeli officials, soldiers etc haven't been extremely open and callous with their intentions. It is not an "accusation" to quote what someone has said openly. Finally, option 3 is shorter. KetchupSalt (talk) 09:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To elaborate on option 2 some more, I think it would border on POV to insist that these are mere accusations. KetchupSalt (talk) 10:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KetchupSalt Given that the ICJ has not yet ruled, it is still in question. Cremastra (talk) 18:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it's a question or not should be stated in the lead, not after the common name. FunLater (talk) 18:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the common name of the event. The common name is "Israel-Hamas war" or "Israeli attack on Gaza" and their variations. Vegan416 (talk) 18:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're already discussing this below. No need to discuss the same thing in two places. FunLater (talk) 18:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But you are doing it in 2 places... Vegan416 (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ICJ isn't the only RS that we should keep in mind. So far the ICJ hasn't said that it isn't a genocide. KetchupSalt (talk) 23:16, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 1 (or 2), with the strongest possible opposition to Option 3. There is absolutely no consensus anywhere that there is a genocide here. Option 3 would be an extreme violation of NPOV. Vegan416 (talk) 11:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't usually need to have evidence or consensus to have articles about supposed or speculative subjects. There's no evidence of anti-gravity, yet we have an article titled Anti-gravity, right? — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then why for example the article Atrocities in the Congo Free State is not called Congo genocide? After all many people regard it as such. Or why the article Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is not called the Hiroshima and Nagasaki genocide? There are people who think it was a genocide. And as you know I could being more examples like this. Vegan416 (talk) 17:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other articles should follow relevant article policies (such as Wikipedia:COMMONNAME). If they don't, then they should be renamed. FunLater (talk) 17:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article should follow these policies too. The common name of the subject at hand is the Israeli-Hamas war, or variations thereof. Vegan416 (talk) 17:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Er no, the subject at hand is the significant view that Israel is committing a genocide. Selfstudier (talk) 17:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the subject at hand is the view that Israel is committing a genocide. Then the proper name should be "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza", and there is no need to change anything. Vegan416 (talk) 18:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I used the words "significant view" for a reason. If a significant view to the contrary can be demonstrated rather than mish mash comments of no account, I would be happy to look at that. Selfstudier (talk) 18:16, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I saw quite a few sources to the contrary brought here in the discussion. e.g. by FortunateSons and others. Vegan416 (talk) 18:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I saw some urls, no idea what they say, they are in German, let me know when you have translated them. Plus German views only is hardly a significant view, is it? Selfstudier (talk) 18:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Look again. People brought sources in English as well. They are scattered all over this long discussion. Plus the German ones are easily readable. Don't you have an auto-translator install in your Chrome? When I have more time I'll try to collect all the sources here into one list and also add other sources from my own findings. But now I have to go to sleep. Had a long day in real life. Vegan416 (talk) 18:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s German and Swiss, and I would say this is definitely enough to be significant. I could also look for Israeli once if you want linguistic diversity, but my Hebrew is nothing to call home about. FortunateSons (talk) 18:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, this is the subsection on FortunateSon's sources. As I've said above:

The sources, from the quick look I did on some of the articles, while they aren't publish in academic journals (which I'd really like), they are reputable sites, and we have statements and quotes from other scholars from similar quality sources already in the article. I have agreed to look at them in more detail tomorrow to provide a second opinion on them.

As a note, for now, we can have more detail from scholars et al. from such sources, but as time progresses and the academic literature increases in size, we would reduce the detail, and likely keep the citations for contextualisation of the development of the discussion. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Armenian genocide and World War I are two articles. They cover different topics and don't have enough Wikipedia:OVERLAP to justify a merge, similar to Israel–Hamas war and Gaza genocide. FunLater (talk) 17:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. The Armenian genocide was a small part of WW1 (to the extent it was connected at all to it). The speculative "Gaza genocide" in Gaza is not al all separable from the "Israeli-Hamas war". These are just two different views on the very same thing. It is similar to Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Hiroshima and Nagasaki genocide. Vegan416 (talk) 18:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More mish mash irrelevancies. Selfstudier (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What a well reasoned argument... Vegan416 (talk) 18:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza genocide is only a part of Israel–Hamas war. Israel–Hamas war is about the conflict in general, including conflict in the West Bank, Lebanon, Yemen and the Red Sea, Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

Wikipedia:OVERLAP would be a reason to merge. But there isn't enough overlap, and the Israel–Hamas war article would be too big if they were merged. FunLater (talk) 18:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not al all. The name Israel-Hamas war is about the war between Israel and Hamas, not about the war between Israel and Hezbollah or Iran. Furthermore, even if you think otherwise than clearly there is a complete overlap between "Gaza genocide" and "Israeli attack on Gaza" or variations thereof, which are the more common name for this event. Vegan416 (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article about the Ottoman Empire in World War I, which has a rather significant overlap with the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocides. —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 18:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It perhaps should be the "Congo/ Congolese genocide". An estimated 10 million people died. "It was indeed a holocaust before Hitler's Holocaust ..." [25] And certainly one of the great crimes of the 20th century. That a page title exists does not imply it is well chosen. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then why for example the article Atrocities in the Congo Free State is not called Congo genocide?

In fact that article did once refer to it as a genocide, but a certain Wikipedian whose Belgian great(-great?)-grandpa (or some such ancestor) served in the Belgian Army in the Congo insisted that there was no way his sweet old great grandpa would ever do a genocide, and because that page has so few eyes on it he was able to get away with impressing his very non-neutral POV on the article. That is almost certainly akin to what is happening here, actually, with certain (but not all) individuals voting for option 1. Brusquedandelion (talk) 21:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please AGF, and either self-revert or strike this. FortunateSons (talk) 22:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2, then option 1. This is expressly an article about an accusation of genocide, not about a genocide itself (if this is one). AndyBloch (talk) 22:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you forgot Option 4: Allegations of genocide of Gazans during the Israel-Hamas war, which has a precedent with Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Of the three options that were provided, I would go with #2 since the article is about accusations. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article doesn't discuss allegations. It's not a literature study. It discusses acts of the Israeli military. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2 or 3 2 because there is already a Palestinian genocide accusation that has not as yet changed its title, and 3 because there is a significant view in sources that Israel is committing a genocide and I have not as yet seen a sufficiency of sources saying that Israel is not committing a genocide. Selfstudier (talk) 17:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 or 2: There are muliple sources that dispute this characterisation (see the lists by u:FortunateSons above) so per WP:NPOV we should avoid giving the article a name that makes the reader think that there is no debate about it. It's certainly not a common name, if needed I can produce dozens of articles describing the conflict without calling it a genocide. The argument that some other article is called "X genocide" should be ignored, as NPOV, as one of the main policies, trumps consistency. Alaexis_¿question? 19:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're not describing the conflict, we're describing the systematic killing of, harming of, and deprivation of the conditions necessary to support the life of Palestinians in Gaza. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And "lists" don't do it for me. Plus apparently they are newspapers or some such, nobody seems to know. Selfstudier (talk) 20:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the sake of convenience and improved argumentation to convince people on the fence here, is somebody here please willing to create a complete list of all the reliable academic and official sources which state that this is a genocide that editors here have collectively found and listed above, both the ones with and without direct links provided?

In order to get anywhere here, we also likely need to check through the links provided by FortunateSons to see which ones that have any authority behind them, and which ones that are mere news articles with journalists parrotting standardised unreliable propaganda. David A (talk) 22:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m working on the second part on my talk page. Anyone speaking German is welcome to join, and I permit additions to the table by anyone who feels they have the required knowledge (but it’s my talk page, so the usual rules apply). FortunateSons (talk) 22:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2 per Cremastra. I could feasibly agree to option 1, but I fear it has an unfortunate parallel. I fear option 3 implies too much the question is settled (and I don't think other articles having the same flaw in their title justifies it happening here). — Czello ^(music) 12:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- As it's been mentioned above, I would also advocate option 4. — Czello ^(music) 16:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Would the closer please also ~take into account as part of this RM the sources and associated commentary in the section #Opening paragraph edit request of 15 June, which took place while this RM was in progress. Or editor @Cdjp1: might be persuaded to copy that material to this RM in a collapsed box? Selfstudier (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2. It is the clearest. I think the raised examples like transgender genocide should also include clear qualifiers in their titles that define the article's scope as a notion or debate, not an event in history. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 4 then Option 2 and then Option 1. Option 4 is best because it's completely neutral and states clearly exactly what it is. Option 2 then because is the only of the 3 options given above thats actually neutral and not taking a side in highly debated dispute. Option 1 isn't amazing because it makes it sound like (as does the example) that for certain a genocide occured, but the question is intent, which is not neutral either. Option 3 is completely not neutral whatsoever. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 13:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support options 2 and 4, extremely strong oppose to option 3: Israel has not been committing genocide (the intentional causing of death of people due to their ancestry, or to some physical characteristic which is correlated with ancestry) in ghe Gaza Strip. Israel has been attacking terrorists who use innocent civilians as human shields, and are frequently ambushed by groups of terrorists shooting from populated buildings. Israel is also trying to destroy and/or confiscate weapons intended by terrorists to use against its civilians and its soldiers, which are frequently hidden in civilian buildings. Options 2 and 4 represent the unfortunate fact that some significant individuals and groups are accusing Israel of genocide, without giving anh claim to the validity of these accusations. Option 1 suggests that there may possibly be some validity fo the accusations, while option 3 endorses these accusations. Animal lover |666| 18:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is WP:OR, genocide minimalization, and victim blaming. Brusquedandelion (talk) 21:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is this OR. There are a lot of people who would agree with both of your positions. While I do feel like this vote is partly based on opinion, ultimately many of these arguements are valid. 2 and 4 do support that "some significant individuals and groups are accusing Israel of genocide" and indeed avoid the issue of assigning validity to 1 opinion over another (which would non be neutral). Option 1 does indeed suggest there may be some validity and 3 does endorse those accusations (and therefore is not neutral). Genocide minimalization and victim blaming are you're own opinions. @Brusquedandelion Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 18:04, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR is a content policy; it doesn't apply to talk page arguments like this, since they're not content, and not proposing any content. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still, arguments in move discussions need to be based either on policy or on sources, and not on "because I say so". — kashmīrī ^TALK 07:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The OR talk page exception doesn't mean that you can avoid policy/sourcing questions, just that one can engage in some limited OR to back up legitimate argument. Selfstudier (talk) 08:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of everything you said. Yet everything I said is true. Something can be original research without running afoul of any Wikipedia policy. Brusquedandelion (talk) 10:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brusquedandelion, you are begging the question. There is a heated debate if this is indeed a genocide. Vegan416 (talk) 07:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is, which in fact supports option 3. In addition, we have sources stating that there is a legal academic and international consensus on the matter. Selfstudier (talk) 08:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The debate of course negates option 3 as I have shown in parallel recent articles. And we also have sources that state there is no consensus. Which means by definition there is no consensus Vegan416 (talk) 09:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, lots of usage, by whatever side, supports Option 3 as a topic. Multiple sources state that there is a consensus among the academic, legal and international community so I don't know who is saying otherwise, other than yourself of course. Selfstudier (talk) 09:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the sources you brought yourself are saying there is no consensus. E.g. McDoom and El-Affendi and CBC. As I have shown you before. Vegan416 (talk) 09:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Saying that there is disagreement or division is not the same as saying there is not a consensus. There is a consensus, we have sources saying so. Are there individual sources disagreeing, yes there are, but they are a minority view, not the majority. Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. The sources which you yourself brought do not describe this is a minor disagreement by a neligent minority. They describe it as a major rift that threatens in their view the very existence of the field of genocide studies. Vegan416 (talk) 11:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The debate exists because there is sufficient evidence of genocidal crimes and sufficient demonstration of genocidal intent that more genocide scholars than not and more Middle East scholars than not, alongside other relevant organisations and groupings, have come out in favour of determining that there is a genocide. I don't see many (or any) sources suggesting that there have been no acts committed with the obvious tint of genocidal intent. There is really no other way to describe the wholesale destruction of mosques, schools, universities, hospitals and all the other mainstays of civic society, in addition to the unabashed use of starvation as a weapon of war. The only real "debate" is on the extent of the genocide, and where military actions end and the genocidal acts begin. The Bosnian genocide was ultimately only prosecuted in the courts of law on the basis of the Srebrenica massacre – a single genocidal act. In Gaza, the are already legion. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:56, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are many sources that say the opposite of what you said. Look at the list of the sources. And more are coming soon. Vegan416 (talk) 09:59, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Genocide denial is the hallmark of every genocide. No one with vested interests in a certain political system wants to admit that the political system they support is responsible for genocide. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, people with strong genuine senses of ethics tend to do so, but please carry on. My apologies for interrupting. David A (talk) 10:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are begging the question. You cannot accuse the academics who do not agree that there is genocide in "genocide denial" when there is no consensus that there is genocide. You know, I could answer you that Antisemitism is the hallmark of every accusation against the Jews from the times of the classis blood libels till the Gaza genocide blood libel. Some scholars have talked in such language, But that would not lead us anywhere. So please stop the inflammatory language of "genocide denial". Vegan416 (talk) 10:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking as somebody with a half-Jewish heritage, no member of any group, including Jews, should have the special right to do whatever they want to innocent people, and then accuse anybody who points it out of being a bigot. David A (talk) 10:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. And yet there are indications that much of what is behind the genocide accusation is related to antisemitism. Anyway this is off-topic as I explained. I just showed Iskandar that inflammatory language can be used on both sides, so he should avoid it. Vegan416 (talk) 10:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Genocide denial" with respect to Gaza has been quite well discussed in various sources, not least in the last 24 hours with the US Congress move to forbid the state department from mentioning the Gaza death toll. "Blood libel" as a topic has only been brought up in the context of the illiterate defence made by Israel's legal team in attempting to block the South African genocide case – so a puerile assertion from the mouth of the genocider that has already been dismissed in court. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David A Maybe you'' be interested in reading this scholar in here Vegan416 (talk) 11:43, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would be helpful if you provided articles that can be read. And Illouz is of the opinion there is at least incitement to genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vegan416: Can you please stop going in circles? You've been explained time and again that subjects of encyclopaedic articles are not limited to topics for which there is "global academic consensus". Encyclopaedias, including Wikipedia, contain topics that are debatable, controversial, uncertain, or non-mainstream as long as they are widely discussed in reliable sources. No, we do not and will not wait for a "global consensus" before adding it to Wikipedia. Sorry if that's a disappointment. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to confused. This is not an AfD about whether the article should stay. This is a discussion about changing the title. And have shown that your claim is not true with regard to what is accepted in Wikipedia regarding recent (and sometimes even old) undecided and debated claims for genocide, where the titles don't use the format "X genocide". Such as: Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War, Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, Atrocities in the Congo Free State. So, according to Wikipedia:Consistency in article titles we should leave the title here as it is now. Vegan416 (talk) 11:32, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Consistency does not really apply when you are talking about only a small clutch of only potentially correctly named pages. I certainly have no problem calling the Congelese genocide what it is, and as I understand from someone else's explanation somewhere on this page, that current title is the result of a Belgian editor looking to lessen the crimes of his grandfather. That leaves the Ukraine case that I have little knowledge of, and the Hamas-led attack one that was presumably created in mimicry of the Ukraine one. This page was presumably named in mimicry again. That leaves us with a single example followed by two copy-paste formats – not something to presumptively imitate. On the contrary, there are far more pages named simply as "X genocide", making that a far more widespread and consistent format. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vegan416 The titles you quoted are a perfect illustration of the fact that Wikipedia article titles don't have to enjoy academic consensus. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the sources that state it is not a genocide, are using the UN Convention, which is not the only metric for declaring something a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 12:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People not agreeing on something does not make it false. This is elementary. Brusquedandelion (talk) 10:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3, i.e. Support a move, with Gaza genocide as the new title (it does seem like the "support" part just became assumed at some point, but considering that this section has had the vast majority of the activity in this discussion, and I've only noticed a couple of comments complaining about this, I think it's safe to say that a quite broad consensus has been established that there should be some kind of renaming, at least). I don't really have anything new to add that hasn't already been said, but I would like to highlight that Iskandar323 and CommunityNotesContributor made what is in my opinion the most compelling argument in favor of Option 3: that as far as the title is concerned, the question of whether there truly is a scholarly consensus in favor of designating Israel's actions genocide is in an important sense irrelevant. As Iskandar323 put it, if a suspected genocide is sufficiently discussed by scholars, it is a topic, and shouldn't be overbearingly couched in the trappings of "accusation", and as CommunityNotesContributor said, [w]hether it's officially recognised as such by every country/scholar or not seems irrelevant, as the topic is still discussed and referenced as such. For this reason I don't think the discussion of the scholarly consensus question, as important as it is to the content of the article, should at all delay closing the discussion on the name of the article. Most, if not all, of the arguments I've seen in favor of the other options seem to be premised on the idea that the name Gaza genocide somehow inherently endorses the claim of genocide, rather than simply concisely identifying the topic under discussion. I find this incredibly unconvincing and I'm inclined to agree with FunLater that [t]he current title and options 1 [Gaza genocide question, for clarity] and 2 [Gaza genocide accusation] aren't for disambiguation, but for casting MOS:DOUBT. Though for what it's worth, even if "consensus" is a high bar, I think the information that has been shared here on how experts are leaning is strong enough to suggest that the argument that one or more of the other new title options are simply the proper WP:NPOV is WP:FALSEBALANCE. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 20:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, therefore, anything discussed by a bunch of scholars (a lot of things, including obviously untrue ones) should be treated (at least in the title) as undisputed fact? That is in no way neutral. Gaza genocide says (quite clearly) that there is, indeed, a genocide, in a place called Gaza. Does it not? @Kinsio Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 20:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Titles don't contain facts, and are not truth claims. They are merely titles that identify the topic and comply with WP: CRITERIA. As has already been raised here as an example, anti-gravity is a title despite it describing a hypothetical phenomena because the base term is sufficient to identify the subject: adding "theory" or what not would be unnecessary disambiguation that would not add precision in terms of topic identification, but would detract from concision. The base term is amply natural and recognisable by itself. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:42, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Titles don't contain facts" - Yes, because they also should pretend something is a fact. For example a title with "Hitler was fake" - May identify the topic (people thinking he was fake) but does also make it seem like were claiming that he was, in fact, fake. @Iskandar323 Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 20:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Hitler is fake" is a complete sentence. "Gaza genocide" is not. Suppose someone were to say, "There is no Gaza genocide." (Thus doing the exact opposite of saying that it is a fact.) What would you say is the topic addressed by that sentence, keeping in mind MOS:DOUBT and WP:CONCISE? Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 20:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The topic of people saying there is not, in fact, a genocide in Gaza. Fine, maybe that wasn't a great example. What if an article title was "America genocide". Identifies the topic (people thinking theres a genocide in/of america/americans), and theres probably some scholar at some point who agreed with that, but that still makes it seems as though virtually everyone agress that a genocide exist in america @Kinsio Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 21:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Me Da Wikipedian: I respectfully disagree that that would [make] it seem as though virtually everyone agrees that a genocide exists. A title like American genocide allegations oder American genocide accusation, on the other hand, certainly seems to imply a claim made with "little or no proof" and so should be avoided in a descriptive title per WP:NDESC. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 21:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, allegations and accusations imply that some people have said X, but a bunch of people disagreee with X. Also, the quote is for non-criminal cases, which genocide it not. @Kinsio Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 22:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Epstein didn't kill himself" is an article title that states a controversial fact, but still follows the title policies, including those regarding using the common name. FunLater (talk) 09:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's literally not a fact, and it's a title here not in any way in relation to its veracity, but purely in relation to it being the recognizable meme name. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Iskandar323: I think that was just some unfortunate wording on FunLater's part. Their point is substantially the same if you replace controversial fact with something like controversial assertion. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 14:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Maybe. That would make more sense. I might have picked up the wrong end of the stick given that it came after other talk of facts. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FunLater: Upon thought, this is a surprisingly good example, actually. The fundamental error that I feel is being made by many here (which becomes much more salient in the case of an article title that actually is a complete sentence) is insufficient appreciation for the use–mention distinction. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 14:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, because that's an article about the meme. The meme is "Epstein didn't kill himself". However, if the article was about conspiracy theroies about Epstein death, (as this is closer to) than that title would be inappropriate. The meme is more referring to the theories than it is a theory itself @Kinsio@Iskandar323@FunLater Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 15:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like an unusual case which falls under an exception to WP:POVNAME, namely that if the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper name, then using the "effectively proper" name isn't likely to be interpreted as validation of the associated point of view.

A more similar example would be something like Joe Biden sexual assault allegation. Can we agree that renaming that to Joe Biden sexual assaults would be problematic? Titles are not explicit statements, but they often imply things, and those implications can run afoul of NPOV. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is apples and oranges, a debate across academic, legal and international scholarship cannot be compared with some two bit scandal. Selfstudier (talk) 08:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the level of individual crimes, the potential for BLP violations emerge as the principle concern. There is a strict requirement for crimes to be successfully prosecuted in court before they can described as such here. For crimes at the country level, only a minority every make it to court due to the complexity of prosecution, the number of moving parts, the difficulty of evidence gathering, and political obfuscation and interference. I believe only two genocides have ever reached courts. Most determinations of war crimes and crimes against humanity are ultimately made by academic and legal communities in the forums of appropriate scholarship. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:08, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Granted there are some differences, but the similarity is that both (hypothetical) titles, Gaza genocide and Joe Biden sexual assaults, imply a non-neutral statement, namely that there is (or was) a genocide in Gaza, and Joe Biden committed sexual assaults. The latter would still be problematic even if we had no BLP policy.

This is in contrast to certain other titles, like Epstein didn't kill himself, Anti-gravity, or say Nihilism. Since those are all essentially names of a viewpoint (or effectively [...] proper names), readers aren't likely to interpret them as implying anything about the validity of the viewpoint. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 21:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3, i.e. Support a move to Gaza genocide, per David A, The Great Mule of Eupatoria, Ïvana, Kashmiri, Iskandar323, and others. It simply high time to call a spade a spade! Brusquedandelion (talk) 21:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 or 2, per WP:WEIGHT. If there's an investigation by the ICC, the ICJ or another ruling by an international body, Option 3 can be reconsidered. --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@NoonIcarus: I don't think WP:WEIGHT makes sense in reference to a page title. International law is also not the only relevant sense of the term genocide here. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 17:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WEIGHT does make sense, a lot of it. Gaza genocide agrees with the claim that there is a genocide happening in the area called Gaza. It does give undue weight to this claim over the other claim of there is not a genocide happening in the are called Gaza. This is why we need something like question, allegation, or accusation. The only way (I think) to avoid giving undue weight with the reasonable size of a title is to have it just mention that some people think something and in the body go into detail on who thinks what thing. Some people think something neither agrees with or disagrees with the thing they think. @Kinsio Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 17:59, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given that MOS:DOUBT exists, the cause for expressing doubt needs to be pretty overwhelming to lead the title down the presumptive doubt route. And how many genocide scholars do we have actively doubting the assertion (and not just saying it may be tricky to determine in court for ... reasons)? Iskandar323 (talk) 21:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:DOUBT doesn't use language like "overwhelming" that would suggest a high bar for justifying expressions of doubt. To the contrary, it says alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, there does seem to exist a 75% academic consensus that this is a genocide among scholars that are experts in the area, and there have also been official statements from the ICC, the UN, and various relief and human rights organisations. I do not think that we should wait for years well after the fact to apply this title merely because the ICJ is dragging out its final judgement regarding the issue. David A (talk) 06:32, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't know that there is 75% academic consensus. Neither did the ICC make any decision on this. And the ICJ seems to think this is not a genocide. It didn't order Israel to sop the war despite SA repeated requests. Plus see here Vegan416 (talk) 06:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See here please. Also, as I said above, we should not be dependent on waiting on a final judgement from the ICJ alone, when so many other reliable organisations and experts have made affirmative statements. David A (talk) 07:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And there many other reliable experts that object to these "affirmative statements". Anyway, nothing will happen if we wait till ICJ ruling. We are not in a hurry. Wikipedia:There is no deadline Vegan416 (talk) 07:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Only 4% of all expert scholars seem to agree with you that the government and military of Israel is justified in its current actions, regardless how much propagandistic media focuses mainly on quoting this minority. Also, all of the tens of thousands of civilian children that are systematically being slaughtered by them are definitely in a hurry, and the ICJ is still not the only globally relevant authority regarding the issue. You are engaging in semantics rather than substance here. David A (talk) 07:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. We have already explained elsewhere the probable bias of the poll you mentioned. Plus it only surveyed Middle Eastern scholars which are just one of the many scholarly fields relevant to the discussion (genocide studies, international law, military experts etc.), and I would argue probably the least qualified among them to judge about the question of genocide. Even so, only a third of them chose the option "genocide" when given the choice...

As for your claim: "The tens of thousands of civilian children that are systematically being slaughtered by them are definitely in a hurry". You do realize that whatever changes we make to the title of this article will have 0 immediate effect on the situation on the ground, and won't help these children in any way? But anyway this sentence of yours exposed that your motivation for changing the title is purely political and not scholarly, in violation of WP:NPOV. Vegan416 (talk) 07:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen any valid refutation of that poll's reliability, nor do I agree that Middle East scholars are less qualified to evaluate this topic. Also, everybody here, including you, have a personal viewpoint/"bias", and mine happens to be humanitarian/empathy- and conscience-driven. That doesn't remotely mean that I am not attempting to find the most reliable academic sources to help us properly evaluate this issue, especially given my autistic obsession with statistics, and if you or others here find any reliable surveys that also list the average viewpoints of, for example, genocide scholars, feel free to add them to the section below that I linked to here. David A (talk) 07:56, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ICJ did very expressly tell Israel to stop perpetrating acts of harm using the exact same language as the genocide convention, so to stop perpetrating genocidal acts, as well as to stop destroying the evidence of its genocidal acts, and to punish those guilty of making genocidal statements. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's an invalid argument for an article title. The only question is whether an article title is derived from reliable sources, clearly Option 2 is because Palestinian genocide question exists (Gaza is a current subset). Option 1 is hardly represented in sourcing at all while Gaza genocide is clearly sourced both within the article and in this discussion as well. Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is plenty of people/sources that don't believe there is a genocide in gaza. The point is that there is significant sourcing. Would you find it unreasonable to rename it to "Not A Genocide in Gaza"? Yes (I would too). Because it does the same thing as Option 3. It picks on side and gives undue weight to it in the title. @Selfstudier Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 18:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Second time of asking, kindly stop pinging me. Selfstudier (talk) 18:15, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I forgot. Used to pinging people (almost did it again) Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 18:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Different things are different. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What? Really! My point was that this is a similar example, just with a bias toward the other side. @Cdjp1 Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 18:26, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Different things are different. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Persistently restating the obvious is not an arguement @Cdjp1 Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How true. Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is a valid argument if we're considering WP:COMMONTERM, the title should be the less controversial one. However, if the community decides otherwise, that's alright. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@NoonIcarus: There is an investigation by these two bodies. Will you consider Option 3 now? — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3: There is academic consensus, plus non-Western and progressive-Western sources of there being a genocide. But also, sources widely refer to the accusations of genocide, mostly in terms of the ICJ case, as the "Gaza genocide" case.

See:

Palestinians seek to join Gaza genocide case at World Court, Reuters
Spain says to join South Africa’s Gaza genocide case against Israel at ICJ, Aljazeera
ICJ’s Gaza genocide case – big win, but with what effect?, ISS Africa
The top UN court has ruled on Gaza genocide case. Here’s what happens now, CNBC
The San Fransisco chronicle also called a domestic case against Biden the "Gaza genocide case", again showing that accusations are usually called Gaza genocide.
The Times of Israel used Gaza genocide as a shorthand for the accusations as well. "US says ‘no evidence’ of Gaza genocide, but wants Israel to deliver on aid long-term"

Personisinsterest (talk) 19:37, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except there is NO academic consensus that there is a genocide, as had been shown here extensively. Plus there is no non-Western consensus on that either. Vegan416 (talk) 19:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's no academic consensus? Anyway, here's some non-Western sources that use the term "Gaza genocide":

Personisinsterest (talk) 23:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to clarify that the term "Gaza genocide" was used by others who believe it is a genocide and as such the media has used it as a shorthand for the actions they describe. "US says no evidence of Gaza genocide" implies that Gaza genocide is a common term for the actions committed by Israel. Personisinsterest (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2. Option 1 sounds unnatural. Strongly oppose Option 3 for now per the other comments above and WP:POVNAME/WP:POVNAMING. I would prefer to see widespread use of the term 'Gaza genocide' (or 'genocide in Gaza', etc.)—without attribution and in their own 'voice'—by reliable, mainstream news outlets (e.g. AP, BBC, CNN, NYT, NPR) first before I can support Option 3. Some1 (talk) 20:04, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 Per Levivich and Selfstudier's citation of the Brookings Institute poll. There are two aspects of genocide arguments, the legal and the historiographical. There is no reason why the restricted legal question should form the only benchmark, given the existence of two evaluations, juridical and scholarly, that have different premises. This should be made quite clear in the lead if we choose the option of "Genocide in Gaza".Genocide in Gaza in the legal sense is not proven, thought the threat of it occurring is significantly recognized by many legal scholars. One reason scholars of genocide disagree is that they are not bound by the Lemkinesque terms that underwrite the (arguably inadequate) international framework of the convention on what constitutes genocide. Its inadequacy for historically minded scholars is that the legal use was enacted and supported by states, which are not neutral and have what they perceive as security interests to defend.(*note below) As one of the foremost scholars of the topic states, 'Throughout the five-hundred-year history of Western empires, the security of European colonizers has trumped the security and independence of the colonized.'( A. Dirk Moses, More than Genocide:The law occludes the abhorrent violence routinely perpetrated by states in the name of self-defense, Boston Review 14 November 2023) which all here should read if they haven't already. In choosing option 3, I am persuaded that historians are better judges of the long comparative evidence across the globe, than the involved states which have customarily resorted to forms of 'civilized' attrition, and protected its implementation behind a restrictive legal framework which supports their ongoing violence.Nishidani (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(note> 'I have described at length the processes by which “genocide” was redefined during the drafting process of the UN Genocide Convention between 1946 and 1948. As I have explained elsewhere, the US delegation’s attempt to split the concept of genocide into two different concepts – cultural genocide and physical genocide – was an elaborate ploy to remove from the definition of genocide aspects of Lemkin’s ideas that the US delegation found objectionable. Indeed, the US delegation, along with the Soviet Union and the UK, did not want to enshrine a treaty into international law that criminalized the destruction of human groups as sociological entities. Lemkin began using this term “cultural genocide,” but always in the sense that attacking a culture was a way of committing genocide, and not a different type of genocide. But, as I have argued previously, the fact that Lemkin began using the term “cultural genocide” lent legitimacy to the notion that there was such a thing as two kinds of genocide, the physical and the non-physical. Douglas Irvin-Erickson, 'Raphaël Lemkin: Culture and cultural genocide,' in Jeffrey S. Bachman (ed.), Cultural Genocide: Law, Politics, and Global Manifestations, Routledge 2019 ISBN 978-1-351-21410-0 pp.21-44, 21-22.Nishidani (talk) 21:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2 then 3. 1 would be a misrepresentation of RSs. Putting my personal impression aside, it remains a question until sources explicitly agree or the ICJ rules Kowal2701 (talk) 20:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimately too many sources describe it without using the word genocide Kowal2701 (talk) 20:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Difficult to discuss it at all without using the word, even if one disagrees with it. Selfstudier (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kowal2701: Do you indeed mean that "many sources" discuss the allegations of genocide (i.e., the current subject of this article) without using the term "genocide"? Could you clarify please? — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I based that off of the sources table below, I’m not intimate with the literature Kowal2701 (talk) 09:08, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I meant that too many sources don’t explicitly term it a genocide Kowal2701 (talk) 09:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that there is a significant minority view that it is not a genocide, if that's what you mean. There are clear sources saying there is a consensus in scholarly and international communities. Selfstudier (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From a reader POV, I think having the title as a question, and then the article answering that question is more valuable. Because the big news media is generally in that minority, a reader might sense strong bias and be less than charitable to the content of the article Kowal2701 (talk) 09:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "big news media" generally avoid taking any positions one way or the other and do what we do, presenting both sides of the argument and it is right that they should do that. The WP:SCOPE is the title plus the first sentence(s) usually, a title by itself carries no implication, as I think someone said having an article Antigravity does not mean that it exists and if you look at the scope, the first sentence reads "Anti-gravity (also known as non-gravitational field) is a hypothetical phenomenon..." Selfstudier (talk) 09:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In that case I support option 3 provided this continues to adhere to NPOV Kowal2701 (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2 (first choice) or Option 1 (second choice) Per WP:POVTITLE, we should not be taking sides regarding the events of the conflict and should rather be making it clear that it is a debate between competing sources. Let'srun (talk) 14:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 2 (option 1 is okay too). As long as the article prose says: The State of Israel has been accused of genocide against Palestinians during its invasion and bombing of the Gaza Strip, and Scholars disagree about whether Israel's actions constitute a genocide against the Palestinians, we can not permit the title to be "Gaza genocide" because that would constitute a POV-fork relative the article content as such a title would not match the topic as described in the prose. These sentences should be worded something like: "The State of Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians during its invasion and bombing of the Gaza Strip", and "Most scholars agree that Israel's actions constitute a genocide against the Palestinians" for the title "Gaza genocide" to match the content of the article and be consistent with WP:NDESC. If there is a consensus of scholars, say it in the article, then change the name. I am willing to revise this comment if the article changes, and I might change it myself (less likely).—Alalch E. 15:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 3 seems the only appropriate title, given ICJ and other investigations. Additionally, I would consider it a COMMONNAME, in colloquial terms at least. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Another special rapporteur has joined the chorus. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3, sadly. The words of Israel leaders and nearly countless massacres gives no other option. Huldra (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging editors

Pings

I counted to 13 votes for option 3 as a preferred title above, which are almost twice as many votes as any other option here received. Is that a sufficiently decisive result to conclude this survey and apply the new title for this page? David A (talk) 09:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This does not have nearly enough participation for such a significant article to be moved to this title IMO. Would you consider adding it to the relevant wiki project again, who were notified weeks prior to this round? FortunateSons (talk) 09:45, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This RM has been open for way too long already. It's supposed to be a week and its over seven now. Someone should file a close request. Selfstudier (talk) 10:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. For a highly controversial change to 3 in a new structure, we should attract a higher number of participants. FortunateSons (talk) 10:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I counted correctly, we have had 21 Wikipedia accounts giving votes already. I think that seems sufficient. David A (talk) 11:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer more, and a proper notification, but won’t do so against consensus FortunateSons (talk) 11:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be 15 votes for option 3 now. David A (talk) 04:48, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So with 16 current votes for option 3 here, I think that this title change can likely be applied now, but how do we accomplish this in practice? Is there a specific page where somebody should request it? David A (talk) 13:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Closure requests Selfstudier (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Would you or somebody else here be willing to handle it please? David A (talk) 13:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given the 3 May RM is listed at WP:RME without a target, ideally it would be added by @Paul Vaurie who created it, as this discussion is a sub-section of that brainstorming that can be directly considered a part of it. Otherwise it will need a separate listing at CR, but probably the original RM will need closing first. Also bare in mind that while it's already been a week, which is enough time for a move to be implemented, the conversation is far from stale. CNC (talk) 22:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will add here, for the record, that Wikipedians declaring the "Gaza genocide" is totally without parallel in history of this encyclopedia and it goes far beyond shameful behavior. Activist Wikipedians in the months since Oct. 7th have pushed their views onto Wikipedia by consistently and deliberately rewriting articles and renaming them to support their narrative. We have seen this in their declartion of a Gaza Strip famine, attempt after fail attempt to completely delete or rename 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation and now this, declaration of "genocide" by a handful of editors. God help us all or more importantly the hundreds of millions of Wikipedia readers if this is all Putin, Xi and Islamists need to do to re-write Wikipedia. Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTFORUM Selfstudier (talk) 20:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since this discussion began with a mass ping to editors I think another should be allowed to those who contributed to discussions on the 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation removal:

@Smyth, Kentucky Rain24, Alastriona.oH, FeralOink, M.Bitton, Roastedbeanz1, XDanielx, DaringDonna, CommunityNotesContributor, IOHANNVSVERVS, Lf8u2, Smallangryplanet, EpistemicKarma, RealKnockout, Lols314, Galamore, Vice regent, Chong Yi Lam, Skitash, Leaky.Solar, Alaexis, CoffeeCrumbs, FortunateSons, Schazjmd, Joe vom Titan, ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen, Stephan rostie, Digitalcre8, David O. Johnson, Dylanvt, CharlesViBritannia, Ehud Amir, MaskedSinger, Fatimah91, TimeEngineer, JDiala, Antreprize, Pg 6475, Hila Livne, Personisinsterest, Dreameditsbrooklyn, TheAwesomeAtom, Another Believer, NativeForeigner, StrodoDoggins, Smasongarrison, Cannolis, Wafflefrites, and Jec93: Monopoly31121993(2) (talk) 20:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BATTLEGROUND Smallangryplanet (talk) 21:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will say that the list of people that Monopoly31121993(2) pinged in response is a wider net then the original poster's, and the list of people actually reflects a good variety of opinions/voting. Per WP:CANVASS "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it be done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus." So Monopoly's intent does not seem to be to sway the discussion a particular way, but to increase the sample size of participants in the discussion to be more representative of the larger Wikipedia population and less skewed. Wafflefrites (talk) 03:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:APPNOTE, technically speaking, the audience for mass notification should either by WikiProjects or collaborations, or the talk pages of directly related pages. Mass pinging a group that an editor merely thinks is a suitable sample is in fact not appropriate. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With calling other editors for a better breadth of opinion, pinging editors who have been in recent active discussions in other Genocide articles.

@My very best wishes, Blindlynx, KetchupSalt, Brusquedandelion, IOHANNVSVERVS, Bondegezou, Bobfrombrockley, ARoseWolf, DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord, M.Bitton, and AndyBloch: -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection to the notification per se, but could you elaborate on how you selected these? FortunateSons (talk) 08:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FortunateSons Talk:List of genocides, you'll see from my interactions with those pinged on that page, the list includes those I have disagreed and agreed with around various points. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like appropriate selection criteria then, no complaints from me. Should we just re-tag the I, P, and I/P wiki project then, just for completeness? FortunateSons (talk) 08:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FortunateSons Yes, I'd also include WP Death personally. As I'm currently on the mobile editor, it would be easier if someone else could ping the projects. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Im not familiar with them, but I trust that there is no partner project I have to also notify? FortunateSons (talk) 08:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FortunateSons I do not believe so. I mention them as their project does list genocide as an explicit area of their coverage. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 08:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that it’s a valid choice then. Is there a way to link to the specific 3 options section? Or do I have to link to the discussion as a whole? FortunateSons (talk) 09:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notified, if anyone is able to make the link point to the right place, they should feel free to do so. FortunateSons (talk) 10:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to abstain from voting despite my pinging as my action on Talk:List of genocides goes as far as two edit requests to fix cite errors, and I do not know much about developments in the conflict other than what's common knowledge (there's a war) and what I've learned from reading this talk page (there's an international court case about the genocide). By the way, on neither of those edit requests did I interact with Cdjp1, despite his comment that you'll see from my interactions with those pinged on that page, the list includes those I have disagreed and agreed with (emphasis added). – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 12:17, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Please ping me on reply.[reply]

@DaZyzzogetonsGotDaLastWord apologies on grabbing you in the list. The comment was a general showing that in the list I pinged individuals broadly to prevent claims of swaying the decision, it was not a declaration that everyone pinged I have interacted with. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1 Okay! :) – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 19:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping, it's going to take a while to catch up on this discussion though—blindlynx 14:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the ping. This also brings into question whether we should rename Palestinian genocide accusation to Palestinian genocide. KetchupSalt (talk) 09:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Monopoly31121993(2): Please keep your aspersions of bad faith to yourself. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:08, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I only pinged all of the people who had responded to this discussion previously, and did not do anything remotely resembling the likely rule-violating extremely partisan insults rant and summon of many previously uninvolved people that Monopoly31121993(2) posted above. Anyway, despite their extremely disruptive behaviour here, we now have 20 votes in favour of option 3. David A (talk) 08:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, once this wave of engagement dies down, we likely have enough !votes (which should be evaluated by strength of arguments, not number). Making no statement on either action, I would like to note that RfCs should attract broad audience participation (that’s why we normally go by wikiproject), and not just re-mention those that participates before without taking other steps. FortunateSons (talk) 08:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. And which wikiproject would even be the most suitable for this task then? For the record, we are already almost drowning in editors here, so I think that it would likely only add to the chaos.

And should somebody file a rule-violation report against Monopoly31121993(2) for their "if this is all Putin, Xi and Islamists need to do to re-write Wikipedia" comment against editors who likely mostly simply believe in the sanctity of human life, especially children? David A (talk) 08:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would have personally re-tagged those that were notified in the original discussion, or just the generic I, P, I/P combination, but there probably isn’t a perfect answer, as it’s closer to art than science.

The second part is already done (at AE), but I’m interested based on your comment: are you editing here because you “simply believe in the sanctity of human life, especially children?” FortunateSons (talk) 08:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do believe in the unifying sanctity of all human life, especially children, regardless of that I personally have a half-Jewish ancestry, but do try my best to remain polite and rational despite this issue, if your intent is to try to kick me out of here to remove a potential obstacle. Also, would it have been better if I had believe in absolutely ruthless and empathy-deprived tribalism, which is the alternative option? Everybody has viewpoints, and mine partially stem from humanism. That is all. In a sane world that would not be perceived as a problem. David A (talk) 08:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate and share your commitment to humanist values, my concern was that you seemed to ascribe motives other than building an encyclopaedia to the editing of others (and maybe yourself?), noble as those may be. While I consider it better to ascribe humanism instead of some brand of political or nationalist goals, we should all strive to write with the goal of improving the encyclopaedia while being impacted as little as possible by any other extrinsic or intrinsic motives. The goal wasn’t to trap you in some AGF or NOTHERE violation, just to show that point without going straight to your talk page.

On an end-note, I think it’s best to re-notify a few projects now that the specific notifications are subject to AE scrutiny, feel free to join the discussion above if I missed one or more eligible ones. FortunateSons (talk) 08:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. My apologies for finding your seemingly leading question suspicious. I was in an annoyed state of mind by Monopoly's earlier rude partisan insults. For the record I strongly agree with you about that our most important task here is to provide accurate and reliable information in a properly encyclopaedic manner. David A (talk) 09:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No offence taken, don’t worry. I’m glad that it was just a misunderstanding, and apologise my part in it. FortunateSons (talk) 09:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have now counted and re-counted the following result:

19 votes for option 3.
1 vote for option 3 as a first choice and option 1 as a second choice.
1 vote for option 3 as a first choice, option 1 as a second choice, and option 2 as a third choice.
1 ambivalent vote for option 2 or 3.
1 ambivalent vote for option 3 or 1.
8 ambivalent votes for option 1 or 2.
3 votes for option 1 as a first choice, and option 2 as a second choice.
3 votes for option 1.
2 votes for option 2.
1 vote against option 3.

So, if my counting is accurate, that either makes 23 votes in sum total for option 3 as a primary choice, 15 votes for option 1 as a primary choice, 12 votes for option 2 as a primary choice, and 1 protest vote, or, if entirely ambivalent votes should be split in half to give 0.5 vote to each option, 22 votes for option 3, 10.5 votes for option 1, 6.5 votes for option 2, and 1 protest vote. David A (talk) 08:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we do not need a rolling count, that should anyway be left to the closer to determine. Selfstudier (talk) 08:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Selfstudier, and ignoring whether or not 1/2 votes should be counted like that, the secondary question in this case would be the actual content of the votes: acknowledging that they are !votes and the number is therefore not directly relevant, how many of the votes are against Option 3? Because based on my quick check, that’s pretty close to the majority too. FortunateSons (talk) 08:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. My apologies. I was trying to be helpful, but am not familiar with how this procedure should be properly handled. David A (talk) 08:49, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTAVOTE and WP:!VOTE covers this, in summary it's based on strength of argument. CNC (talk) 10:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTAFORUM and one “!vote”

I was called here by Monopoly31121993(2) who seems to be one of the last remaining sane editors at Wikipedia. To entertain the notion that Israeli soldiers are guilty of genocide, when they are defending their country and contrymen from a murderous enemy who started this horrible war is a blood libel beyond belief. And just because Jew-hating organizations and individuals, including world courts, the United Nations, politicians and newspapers want to level those allegations does not mean they bear any resemblance to reality. We all know that the world does not care one iota if Jews live or die. I am against any article that has the word genocide in it when describing Jewish behavior. I refuse to be sucked into this joke of a discussion. So I pick option 0.DaringDonna (talk) 15:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any policy based arguments you'd like to add, or is this based on WP:RGW and WP:TRUTH? CNC (talk) 15:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTFORUM (again). Selfstudier (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, 68% of Israelis support blocking all humanitarian aid to the Palestinian civilians under any circumstances, despite very well-documented ongoing starvation, and 94% believe that the Israeli military are using appropriate or not enough force, so the editors here are not the people who seem to have comparative empathy problems. David A (talk) 18:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When all the hostages are released and Hamas unconditionally surrenders, the war will be over and Gazan citizens will have all the aid they need (and the genocide will suddenly end- imagine that). It is Hamas that is causing all the horrible suffering. Their continuation of this war shows they do not care about their brethren. The more Gazans that die, the better it is for Hamas, as the useful idiots around the world have proven consistently. DaringDonna (talk) 19:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to hear you agree it's a genocide, even if this still isn't a forum. CNC (talk) 19:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about everyone stops with the Forum? FortunateSons (talk) 19:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Scholarly and expert opinions (to be extended)
Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza/Template:Gaza-Sources

Notes:

a) credit for creating the original list and being generally incredibly helpful: @Cdjp1.

b) WP:EXPERTSPS applies, so unless there are concerns about falsified quotes, the sources are secondary here.

c) any translation should be scrutinised, and mistakes will be corrected inside the table once found.

d) now written out, the categories get blurry. I have my own opinion, but will leave it to the others on the details. FortunateSons (talk) 13:09, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your dilligence. However, as I stated earlier, we also need a similarly well-structured list on this page for all of the reliable sources linked to or otherwise cited on this talk page which state that this is a genocide. Is somebody here willing to handle it please? David A (talk) 13:17, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a few of them are on FortunateSons talkpage, it's not that necessary tbh, since Palestinian genocide accusation already exists, the only real question is whether it is Option 2 or 3. In other words, it has already been demonstrated, as well in the relevant articles as on this talk page, that there is a significant view in favor of 3, what we need to assess is whether there is a significant view that it is not 3. Fwiw, imo, the above list of mostly German sources doesn't do that. Selfstudier (talk) 13:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, need to distinguish between scholars talking about whether it's genocide, and scholars talking about the evidence that the Genocide Convention is violated. These two things are not the same. From my reading, many of the "negating genocide" sources are actually saying it's hard to prove a violation of the Genocide Convention (see, e.g., Khan at the bottom). That's not negating genocide. It's like the difference between sources saying whether a murder happened and whether the defendant will be convicted of murder--two different things. Levivich (talk) 13:36, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. Saying that "it's hard to prove violation of the Genocide Convention", is like saying for example that it's hard to prove that a certain violent death was intentional murder and not legitimate self-defense. Vegan416 (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Genocide justified by way of the claim of self-defense has never been, and will never be, legitimised by any legal scholar. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except by those many legal scholars who don't think it is a genocide to begin with... Vegan416 (talk) 16:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza and the dilemmas of genocide scholars Perspective. Selfstudier (talk) 17:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kettle meet the pot. Vegan416 (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually this table that FurtunateSons brought here is far from being a list of all RS that exist who object to the claim that this is genocide. We have many more in the article itself. And several others I found that are not yet included either here or there. Shouldn't they be included too if we want to have as comprehensive list as possible in one place? Vegan416 (talk) 13:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, this list is only the once I brought and cited, because they are mostly from the DACH region and most editors don’t speak German. Any sources can and should be added to either this list or the version on my talk (or both). FortunateSons (talk) 13:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add as many as you like. You need enough qualifying sources to demonstrate a significant view that it is not 3. Have at it. Selfstudier (talk) 14:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I’m sure others will provide more, but could you elaborate on why you don’t consider this a significant viewpoint? FortunateSons (talk) 14:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer to wait for a more or less final version of the table before commenting further. Selfstudier (talk) 14:08, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I'll copy to my sandbox where it is more convenient to edit it and copy it here over the existing table from time to time to update it. Vegan416 (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone allowed to edit this table ? @FortunateSons Stephan rostie (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Please do so transparently, including by adding edit summaries so we can easily keep track of edits, and let’s try to maintain the structure. FortunateSons (talk) 14:47, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused now. I thought the idea was to make two lists - one of scholars who claim it is genocide, and one who disagree with this claim. Are we now putting them together intermixed in one list? Vegan416 (talk) 18:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Separate lists can work on some subjects, but in this case, a mixed list is better to avoid bickering about who belongs where. For example: a hypothetical scholar says that there is incitement and risk of genocide, but does not say that there is genocide. Which list should he be on? FortunateSons (talk) 18:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like, the section and collapse box titles have been changed.

I also have a suggestion, it would be most useful if we could collect up those sources that assert a consensus that Gaza is/isn't a genocide as opposed to simply claiming it is or isn't as their own opinion. Selfstudier (talk) 18:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a weird suggestion. What's the point? Vegan416 (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weird why? I give below two examples, perhaps that will clarify matters. Selfstudier (talk) 18:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Examples Susan Akram and Barry Trachtenberg (in the article, assert there is a consensus that it is). Selfstudier (talk) 18:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So? That's just their opinion. What's the point of noting it above the opinions of others? Vegan416 (talk) 18:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An opinion they are qualified to give. That's why. Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. The fact that someone thinks that everyone else thinks like him doesn't mean that he is qualified to say that. Especially when we can plainly see that he is not correct. Vegan416 (talk) 18:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That clearly is an opinion, which you are not at all qualified to give. Find those saying similar for the other side. Selfstudier (talk) 18:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an opinion. We have shown the existence of dissenting opinions on the subject. Vegan416 (talk) 18:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now original research. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. that's the usual way we establish DUE in contentious topics. Each side beings RS, preferably scholarly opinions, that support his side of the argument and we weigh them against each other. Why should we do it differently here??? Vegan416 (talk) 20:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because we can? Selfstudier (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We can do it in other places too, but we don't. The established way is as I described. Vegan416 (talk) 20:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nevertheless, it will not be your decision nor mine whether it is relevant. Editors and the closer will make of it what they will. Called consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 21:05, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nonetheless, precedents and accepted procedure are highly relevant here. Can you show other examples of RfCs, AfDs, RMs etc. that were decided by taking into account only those sources that claim that everybody agrees with them? If you wouldn't be able to do that, then it would seem like your suggestion is an ad-hoc rescue argument. Vegan416 (talk) 07:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Their opinion counts, while yours doesn't. It's as simple as that. M.Bitton (talk) 19:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier: that's a good idea and an excellent way to establish DUE with regard to the scholarly consensus. M.Bitton (talk) 20:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a recent May/June sampling of ME scholars via Brookings asking the question "How would you define Israel's current military actions in Gaza?" and top three responses:

Major war crimes akin to genocide 41%

Genocide 34%

Major war crimes but not akin to genocide 16%

Just a poll so not conclusive of course but a strong indicator that seems to match up with our sourcing in many respects.Selfstudier (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also worth noting the other options. Accounting for those, it looks like 34% are clearly in the "it's genocide" camp, and 24% clearly in the "not genocide" camp. The 41% "akin to genocide" is interesting - to me it sounds like "very close to genocide but not quite", but there are probably various nuanced positions in there.

I'd be a bit weary of potential sampling bias - see e.g. the accusations that MESA (one of the organizations they sampled) is dominated by academics who have been critical of Israel and of America's role in the Middle East.

Stepping back though, I would argue that NPOV is not really about discerning which side of controversy has majority support among experts, but more about whether there is a serious (excluding fringe views) controversy at all. I would argue that since the view that "genocide" is accurate is far from universal, it's absolutely a non-neutral term, and thus a WP:POVNAME. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 01:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in addition to the above information, there are also the official statements regarding the issue from the UN, the ICC, the ICJ, and human rights and relief organisations.

[37] [38] [39] [40] [41]

However, it currently seems like we will eventually end up with the compromise solution of "Gaza genocide accusation" here. David A (talk) 05:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't this be a better argument for renaming Israel–Hamas war or a page on the impact of the war on Gaza to Gaza genocide? This article is about the notion and allegation, so its title does not seek to describe the events that the sources you raise call a genocide. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like an overcomplicated entanglement to introduce to an already very messy discussion, but if we end up with the significantly shortened compromise title of "Gaza genocide accusation", it does seem to coincide with your expressed views here. David A (talk) 05:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's quite essential. Commenters justifying their support of option 3 are arguing that Israel is committing genocide. This article is not about a genocide, it is about a discourse. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly. Those preferring option 3 argue that "Gaza genocide" is a valid encyclopaedic topic and should thus be included in Wikipedia, irrespective of whether Israel's actions are or are not genocide (which will never ever be a consensus about btw). — kashmīrī ^TALK 03:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But this is a discussion about moving this particular article to that title, not about whether any valid encyclopedic topic should be covered under that title. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 04:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You think because Middle East scholars are "critical of Israel and of America's role in the Middle East" that equals a sampling bias? Maybe it's just that those two countries are particularly adept at doing things in the region that Middle East scholars find reprehensible and destabilising? Just maybe? Iskandar323 (talk) 07:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You missed the point. xDanielx didn't say that "Middle East scholars" in general are biased. He said that one of the main organizations that seems to have been especially targeted in the poll (MESA) is biased. Vegan416 (talk) 07:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The people polled were individual Middle East scholars. It is speculation how membership of the Middle Eastern Studies Association might provide a somehow deficient sample. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not a speculation at all. The bias of this organization is loud and clear. Read here Middle East Studies Association#Controversies Vegan416 (talk) 08:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please skip the repeated deliberately provocative "LOL" comments. It is highly inappropriate, especially when discussing crimes against humanity. David A (talk) 08:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well. It's hard to resist when people are making absurd comments like Iskandar323 made here. Vegan416 (talk) 08:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just the usual shoot the messenger stratagem, rather than finding appropriate sourcing, par for the course. Selfstudier (talk) 08:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what messenger you imagine I shot. But I have given the source about MESA's bias here. Vegan416 (talk) 08:56, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ME scholars think Israeli actions are

Major war crimes akin to genocide 41%

Genocide 34%

notwithstanding your attempt to pretend otherwise. Selfstudier (talk) 09:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I wasn't the one who initially pointed to the bias of preferably targeting MESA in this poll. It was xDanielx. I just joined the conversation to dispel Iskandar's misunderstanding. At any rate even if we put the bias concerns aside for the sake of argument, and accept this poll at face value, it actually supports my claim that there is no consensus about calling it genocide, because:

When given the option to explicitly describe this as genocide, only 34% (i.e. a minority) of the scholars chose this option. Its anyone's guess what term "akin to genocide" actually means here, but one thing is clear. It is not equal to genocide, because it was given as a different option from genocide.
Even if you'll insist that "akin to genocide"="genocide" then you'll get a ratio of 3:1 between the genocide claimers and objectors. That's a majority but that's not consensus. A consensus is a general agreement, like we have for example regarding climate change or evolution, where the ratio between believers and deniers among the relevant scholars is 32:1

Vegan416 (talk) 09:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just find sources to support your position and stop trying to dish this one, which doesn't. Selfstudier (talk) 09:42, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it supports my claim as I just explained. Anyway, sources that show there is no consensus among scholars on this, already appear in the article. I'll just copy paste: "Scholars disagree about whether Israel's actions constitute a genocide against the Palestinians.^[1]". The second ref there is not easily copied but you can find it there. Vegan416 (talk) 10:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first para of that source says "A growing number of academics, legal scholars and governments are accusing the Israeli government of carrying out a genocide against Palestinians in Gaza." Selfstudier (talk) 11:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You seemed to have missed the title "Experts, advocates deeply divided on question of 'genocide' in Gaza", and the rest of the article which explicate it... BTW, even the opinion column you brought from Al-Jazeera yesterday admits it. He bemoans what he describes as "polarisation and politicisation" in the field of "Genocide Studies" over Gaza. "Polarisation and politicisation" are exactly the opposite of consensus. Thanks for bringing yet another source that proves my claim. Vegan416 (talk) 12:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Headlines are not RS. Apart from that, I have no idea what your claim is, it seems to vary from paragraph to paragraph.

I am not making any claims, I am simply providing reliable sources that state things, try and do the same please. Selfstudier (talk) 12:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My claim never changed at all during this discussion. From my first involvement in this topic (back in my vote in the indigenous genocide page) my claim was that there is no consensus on this question (i.e. among relevant scholars and beyond). And I thanked you now for bringing a source that supports this claim... Vegan416 (talk) 12:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And that extends to the individual opinions of its members ... How? (That's the speculation part) Iskandar323 (talk) 08:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Basic statistics. If the members of this organization vote with a margin of 787 to 167 to join the BDS, then you can predict with a vey high degree of certainty that a similar ratio of them would vote Genocide in this poll that Selfstudier brought, which naturally would bias any poll that is targeted preferably at this organization. Vegan416 (talk) 09:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More OR. Selfstudier (talk) 09:13, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vegan416 Just as an example of how the logic of "the preponderance of scholars in this field hold this position in their scholarship so they are biased and can't be X, Y, z". The preponderance of biologists hole to the reproductive defition for biological species, therefore in speciation they are likely to focus of the reproductive capability in the process for defining when an animal has speciated. This isn't a perfect analogy, just highlighting a flaw in the argumentation. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:25, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I didn't understand the analogy. Aren't biologists really likely to focus of the reproductive capability in the process for defining when an animal has speciated? Anyway you also seem to miss the point that we are not talking about "the preponderance of scholars in this field", but rather on the "the preponderance of scholars in a specific organization with a certain proven record of bias". Vegan416 (talk) 09:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, MESA members are only part of the sample. Selfstudier (talk) 09:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the proven record of bias? BDS within an academic context merely means cutting academic ties, which, in case you haven't been following the news over the past eight months, dozens of entire European universities have now done. That isn't a bias so much as a practical step for any organisation wishing to distance itself from potential complicity in a multiplicity of war crimes. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As well a rookie error regarding causality. Selfstudier (talk) 09:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Iskandar323 I have been asked not to use the L word, but you are making this really hard. Are you seriously trying to claim that someone who supports BDS is not biased against Israel????? Vegan416 (talk) 09:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are assuming without evidence that ME scholars that support BDS are biased as regards whether Israel is committing a genocide. Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a no brainer that they are much more likely to think that Israel is committing a genocide than people who don't support BDS. I mean, BDS accused Israel of committing genocide years before October 7. See here for example. Vegan416 (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is not about BDS. Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accountability is not bias, and holding a country (or academic community) accountable for criminal complicity is not biased. 76 Spanish universities cutting ties are not biased. They are sensible given the ICJ/ICC cases. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Selfs thinks that BDS is off topic. I don't agree, but this discussion is too long anyway and doesn't lead anywhere, so I'll just end it by pointing out that BDS is explicitly anti-Zionist, and therefore pretending that it is not biased against highly ridiculous and intellectually dishonest. And I'm taking a break now for a while. Vegan416 (talk) 12:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BDS is a set of measures in support of international law, and supporting international law is a reasonable position for any academic to adopt. It is also independent from and unrelated to determinations of genocide. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vegan416 there are multiple definitions of species used in biology, depending on the specific subfield. Which has some weight of analogy in comparing how legal scholars and genocide scholars are (in a lot of cases) using different definitions (frameworks) of (for) genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:56, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This biological discussion is really off topic. And I still don't understand your point. My claim was that a person supporting BDS is much more likely to think that Israel is committing genocide than a person who doesn't support BDS. What's the flaw here? (see my latest reply to Seldstudier). Vegan416 (talk) 12:08, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Think we need a new target for Vegan to shoot at, so Israeli academics slammed for signing letter accusing Israel of ‘plausible genocide’ about 1346 academics and others that have signed on to a statement saying "Israel’s assault on Gaza appears to include both acts and intent stated in the definition of genocide." Selfstudier (talk) 12:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A brief scan of the 1346 names shows that most of the signatories are not academics, and most of the academics among them are not in the relevant fields (genocide studies, international law, middle east maybe), and very few of them are Israelis. So it clearly doesn't show any consensus among relevant scholars or beyond. Anything else? Vegan416 (talk) 12:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

9 minutes to scan 1346 names, cool. Selfstudier (talk) 13:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Expert Commentary, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, and the Question of Genocide: Prosemitic Bias within a Scholarly Community? analyzes expert opinion from Holocaust and Genocide Studies scholars and finds "evidence strongly suggestive of bias in favour of Israel". Selfstudier (talk) 13:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Worth noting that the author has very pronounced anti-Israeli views in general. His Twitter is focused on criticism of Israel, with nothing about Oct 7 massacres, hostage taking, or anything like that. He seems to imply in a few places that Hamas "resistance" is not terrorism. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Find someone with pro Israeli views saying the opposite? Selfstudier (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For example Israel Charny, an Israeli genocide scholar, examined biases in the Journal of Genocide Research, the journal in which that McDoom essay was published. He surveyed 76 genocide scholars and graduate students, of which 59% judged that the journal as a whole had an anti-Israel bias (based on some selected quotations).

This isn't a broad analysis of the entire field, but neither is McDoom's essay, which focuses on some particular statements he perceives as biased. If his perceptions of bias are correct, it would still be hard to draw any conclusions about the prevalence of bias in the field, since there's no quantitative data. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 21:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is an interesting claim by Charny, considering the history of scholarship in the journal, and field. From the first couple of pages read, he's doing a lot of bad reading on the statements by Segal, which isn't surprising considering how Charny has been sanctioned for his inflammatory personal attacks against Segal and other previously. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit of an odd paper in that it mixes two things: Charny's own personal thoughts about biases, and survey data from 76 scholars / grad students. I think the latter is more meaningful here, since it shows that these perceptions of anti-Israel and other biases are shared by quite a few other scholars (there could have been sampling bias, but still). — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 05:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Selfstudier, thanks for yet another source that proves there is no consensus on this question among relevant scholars: "As noted, while there exists widespread consensus within the HGS community that Hamas’ civilian-targeted violence should be condemned, this is not the case in respect of the Israeli government’s violence. Many HGS scholars have remained steadfastly silent or else uncritical of the Israeli government despite the rapidly-mounting civilian death toll." [...] "a section of the HGS community chose not to acknowledge this possibility when voicing their views – as genocide experts – on the violence. To the contrary. Some charged Hamas with genocide against Israel. Some published further opinion to deny the Israeli government’s actions constituted genocide". Vegan416 (talk) 15:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is indeed a lot of debate, that alone is arguably justification for option 3, furthermore I still don't see much evidence that the not position has anywhere near the weight of the is. Selfstudier (talk) 15:14, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually a lot of debate is exactly why Option 3 is not good. Since were not here to take sides on a debate like this, leaving calling is an allegation is best. Significant amounts of people have alleged (claimed, said, etc.) that X happened, with significant amounts of people (disagreeing, denying, etc.) Allegation means "a claim that someone or something has done something wrong" which this clearly is.

And it's not our place to decide whose voice carries more weight, the point is that there are plenty of scholars/people/etc. on both sides. @Selfstudier Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 15:19, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 is not taking sides, you are assuming that option 3 approves the claim, it does not. The WP:SCOPE of the article is defined by the title and the opening sentence which reads "The State of Israel has been accused of genocide against Palestinians during its invasion and bombing of the Gaza Strip.".

the point is that there are plenty of scholars/people/etc. on both sides My point is that the evidence points to there being rather more, arguably a consensus, on one side. Selfstudier (talk) 15:23, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And what's the recognisable and natural debate topic in two words? Iskandar323 (talk) 15:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The topic is (as it says) Israel being accussed of genocide during the war in Gaza. I would been fine with Option 2 as well for that reason.

"My point is that the evidence points to there being rather more, arguably a consensus, on one side" - What evidence? Every poll source disagrees. All figures are likely mistaken at least somewhat @Selfstudier

@Iskandar323 I don't understand what your comment means Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 15:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Read the sourcing in the article plus that which has been supplied above, I am not going to repeat it all again for latecomers. Selfstudier (talk) 15:31, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What sources are in the article is, frankly, irrelevant, considering that we (obviously) don't have every source here. For example, 70% of sources could think X, but we only have 30% of sources here and 60% disagree with X. That's very possible. If you will point me to specific comments I'll read them but given that this section alone has nearly 400 comments...I'm not reading through all that. @Selfstudier Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 15:34, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You don't want to read it because it's too long, but you want people to repeat what's already been written, which would only make it longer -- seriously? Levivich (talk) 15:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich have you read all 400+ comments in this section alone? The vast majority of the above is very long threaded discussion, much of which is usually not the main point of each side but people trying to prove their proof of it. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 15:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have, I've been reading it for the last two months, including the dozen comments you've written in the past day or so. It's not hard to spot the sources in this discussion (there's a table at the top of this subsection, which is called "Sources") or in the article (again, "References" is its own section). If you don't want to read it, that's fine, but don't argue about what the sources say if you aren't going to look at the sources other people are bringing here for discussion. This isn't a chat room; if you want to join the class discussion, do the reading first. Levivich (talk) 15:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"if you want to join the class discussion, do the reading first" - I am not expected to read a book on the Gaza war either. This talk page is about half the size of the average novel. @Levivich Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doubtless, the discussion closer will take into account that your comments are based on personal opinion rather than any detailed knowledge. Selfstudier (talk) 16:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not personal opinion. There is no requirement that I need to read a book (or the Wikipedia talk page eqivalent) in order for my ideas to count. it's not personal opinion. Plenty of people/scholars believe there to be no genocide in Gaza.

Have you really read every comment here? I doubt it. @Selfstudier Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have, several times. And kindly stop pinging me for a page that is obviously on my watch list. Selfstudier (talk) 16:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you should read a discussion before you participate in it, otherwise you would be speaking from a place of ignorance. And you should read sources about a topic before you edit an article about that topic, otherwise you would be ignorant about what you're editing. This is not an easy topic to edit articles about; a lot of reading is required, because a lot of sources have been written, and they do contradict one another. That's why this is such a long discussion: people -- who have done the reading -- are discussing the extensive sourcing on this issue. If you're not going to read the discussion or the sources, but still want to give your opinion, you're just being disruptive -- you're quite literally getting in the way of everyone else who has done the reading and is trying to improve the article. I am going to hat this off-topic portion of the discussion, so others know they don't have to read it in order to follow the actual (on-topic) discussion. Levivich (talk) 16:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow...Selfstudier. I have read actual sources. A novel sized collection of other Wikipedians opinions is not a source. And just because I didn't read a novel to participate in a...Wikipedia talk page discussion...doesn't mean this is off topic @Levivich:. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As of now, 12 countries have filed or announced an intention to file declarations of intervention in South Africa's genocide case against Israel.Source. Selfstudier (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And hundreds haven't...that's not a majority@Selfstudier Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 18:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Third and last time of asking, please stop pinging me. Selfstudier (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Last one on "consensus", "It Is Clear That Israel Is Committing Genocide In Gaza," UN Panel Concludes "Amid the growing international consensus that the atrocities Israel has been committing in Gaza amount to genocide, a UN panel has also concluded that "genocide is already happening" in Gaza. That was at the end of last year and brings us to around a half dozen reliable sources for the existence of a consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you cite those sources/individually link to them, please? Just so we don’t have duplicates, as I would probably not consider People’s dispatch to be a particularly reliable source for an academic claim, based on a very cursory search. FortunateSons (talk) 19:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have done that already, either in the article or in this discussion. Not doing it again. Selfstudier (talk) 19:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You’re not obligated to, but you’re welcome to add them to the list above if you reconsider. FortunateSons (talk) 19:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kommentar Actually, what I would like to do is address the closer's comments in the Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza#Requested move 29 February 2024 (I was not involved in that discussion), firstly Their [not] assertion that there is no clear consensus of reliable sources for the title is strong, considering the sources that have been cited within the discussion and secondly I think that a hypothetical Gaza genocide article would probably have some distinctions from either of the existing titles. That said, in the absence of any convincing policy-based argument to move, this article title stays as is

My contention is that not only has Gaza genocide been clearly demonstrated as a "topic" (a lot of debate on both sides of the argument) and that even though it is not required for a move, it is also demonstrated in sources that there is an academic, legal and international consensus on the matter (this is not to say that there is not a significant contrary view, just that it is a minority view).

In particular, these sources (along with others others less emphatic in the source list) assert this consensus:

According to a May 2024 report by the University Network for Human Rights, "actions taken by Israel's government and military in and regarding Gaza following the Hamas attacks of October 7, 2023, constitute breaches of the international law prohibitions on the commission of genocide."^[2] Human rights lawyer Susan Akram, commenting on the report and on the resistance to labelling Israel’s actions as genocide, said, "The opposition is political, as there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza".^[3]

As part of the case Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al, Holocaust historian Barry Trachtenberg testified that, among genocide historians, there is a consensus opinion that the situation in Gaza is a genocide mainly because this was made clear in the statements of Israeli officials. He said "We are watching the genocide unfold as we speak. We are in this incredibly unique position where we can intervene to stop it, using the mechanisms of international law that are available to us."^[4]

"It Is Clear That Israel Is Committing Genocide In Gaza," UN Panel Concludes "Amid the growing international consensus that the atrocities Israel has been committing in Gaza amount to genocide, a UN panel has also concluded that "genocide is already happening" in Gaza.

Israeli academics slammed for signing letter accusing Israel of ‘plausible genocide’ about 1346 academics and others that have signed on to a statement saying "Israel’s assault on Gaza appears to include both acts and intent stated in the definition of genocide." Selfstudier (talk) 19:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty of sources disagree over which view in the minority vs. majority and by how much. 1 historians, a bit of 1 thousanda academics, some random organization, and a UN panel are the majority of people. It's absolutely a topic. Both the actual genocide if it exists, and the question of whether or not it exists are notable. But as the final is quite debated, I think leaving it at "some people think this and some people don't" is the best way to describe it. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 20:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Show me any sources asserting that there is majority opinion against. Otherwise, your personal opinions are once again, irrelevant. Selfstudier (talk) 20:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well actually there's not too many recent sources saying no genocide is majority, but I have provided below plenty asserting that it is more or less equal. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 20:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided below plenty asserting that it is more or less equal Where? I can't see any. Please provide quotes saying "more or less equal" or similar. Selfstudier (talk) 21:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See the sources I provided elsewhere in this discussion. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 23:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He seems to refer to, for our purposes here irrelevant, United States public opinion polls that he posted in the new talk page section below. David A (talk) 03:52, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OT discussion about other articles

Is "Gaza genocide" the same as "Anti-Gravity"? I'm responding here to comments made by several people above (e.g. Iskandar323 and Kashmiri) who said that the title "Gaza genocide" doesn't necessarily indicate that there is a genocide in Gaza, but only that there is debate on this. However, for this argument to hold water, we would need to change the titles of all of the articles that discuss debates about suggested genocides in the same way. For example:
Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War should be renamed Ukraine 2022 genocide.
Allegations of genocide in Donbas should be renamed Donbas genocide.
Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel should be renamed Israel 2023 genocide or Western-Negev genocide.
Atrocities in the Congo Free State should be renamed Congolese genocide.
Persecution of Hazaras should be renamed Hazars genocide.
Sayfo should be renamed Assyrian genocide.
And there are many more examples. But now I have to take another break for a while. Vegan416 (talk) 16:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have to change the titles of all the other articles in order to change the title of this one. We probably should change the titles of those other ones, or at least some of them, but we don't have to. WP:CONSISTENT is just one part of WP:AT. For a detailed explanation of consistency in article titles, see WP:TITLECON. Levivich (talk) 16:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vegan416 at least the 1 I randomly chose said "no reputable historian of the Congo has made charges of genocide; a forced labor system, although it may be equally deadly, is different" so I wouldn't support that move Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 17:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support for all these except renaming the Sayfo, as that is the endonym term for that particular genocide and has usage in the literature. To change its name would be akin to renaming the Holocaust article to "Jewish genocide". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple events that could reasonably be considered a jewish genocide. As well, Holocaust sometimes refers to other non-jewish victims killed by the Nazis as well. They are different cases. @Cdjp1 Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 17:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument for the move under discussion.Selfstudier (talk) 17:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You under that page is titled arguements to avoid in deletion, not move discussions. As well, I think the point is more we should move these to to be consistent. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2, UNHR, is a self-published working paper and as such is only qualified on WP as a PRIMARY source for its authors' opinions. The authors would need to be NOTABLE expert scholars to consider using that report, even with attribution. Independent SECONDARY or TERTIARY RS are required for contentious content. SPECIFICO talk 20:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An attempt and a plea to help bring some structure to this conversation

In order for us to hopefully get anywhere and move away from all of the enormous amounts of derailing spamming (initially via severely insulting partisan rants, and excessive pinging of uninvolved editors, and more recently via repeated obnoxious "lol" comments, pointless extensive repetitive poorly spelled arguing about semantics, and continuous pinging against the wishes of other members), that systematically prevents us from moving forward, or indeed anywhere, in a coherent manner, and causes all discussion here to descend into complete chaos, let us attempt to bring some measure of structure by mainly focusing on the most relevant concrete facts of this discussion, initially by reposting a part of the official specialised academic consensus, rather than focusing on the far less relevant views of single/individual academics that support our own personal viewpoints.

Here is a May/June sampling of 758 Middle East scholars/experts who study the issue via Brookings, most of whom are located in the United States, asking the question "How would you define Israel's current military actions in Gaza?"

The responses were:

"Major war crimes akin to genocide": 41%

"Genocide": 34%

"Major war crimes but not akin to genocide": 16%

"Unjustified actions but not major war crimes": 4%

"Justified actions under the right to self-defense": 4%

"I don't know": 2%

Meaning that a large majority of 75% would likely support option 3 here.

In addition, there have been official statements regarding the issue by:

The International Criminal Court.

The United Nations Human Rights Council.

And perhaps less relevantly, the International Court of Justice, as the court usually requires years to reach a definitive conclusion: [42] [43] [44]

Is somebody here willing to also list links to official statements by relief and human rights organisations, and other relevant well-informed authorities below please? They should be available across the main Wikipedia articles regarding this topic, including this one.

No derailing, obnoxious provocations, or otherwise meaningless comments below please, just a collection of substantial official information, in order to help us discern whether the international academic consensus is strong enough for a "Gaza genocide" title, rather than the more ambivalent "Gaza genocide accusation". Thank you. David A (talk) 19:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's keep in mind that most of the Middle East is very opposed to Israel in general and has been at war with it many times. The Middle East is hardly "impartial". Many government indoctornate anti-Israel sentiments from the time they are toddlers, and it is illegal to voice support of Israel.

The US, for one says there's no genocide. ^[5] These sources indicate people are pretty divided. ^[6]^[7]^[8]^[9]^[10]^[11] Some other places (in refs, not listing everything out here to not make it too long). ^[12]^[13]^[14] I could keep going.

I would like to emphasize "No derailing, obnoxious provocations, or otherwise meaningless comments below please" and remind everyone that it applies to the whole article. All comments should be for the purpose of arriving at consensus through civil and relevant discussion of facts. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 20:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Middle East is hardly impartial and neither are Western countries like the US. Discrediting the opinions of the Middle East and putting the US by default on an impartial moral pedestal is an atrocious double standard. Of course the US would say there is no genocide, as they are deemed complicit in the allegation, and could be held legally accountable. CNC (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The US, for one says there's no genocide.

The United States government is not an independent source here.

These sources indicate people are pretty divided.

The sources you linked refer to the opinions of the general public in the United States; the people whose opinions are of interest to us here are those with relevant expertise on the subject. We also don't need sources demonstrating that there are some people saying that it's not a genocide; no one would reasonably dispute that, and again, it's irrelevant, because any number of people say any number of things. What is of interest to us is what reliable sources are saying. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 21:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, no actually both are of interest. What people think is important for commonname as well as the fact that stating only 1 side (at least in the title) would reasonably require that that side is the majority opinion. The majority opinion is pretty dependent on what people think, as scholars are not everyone.

"any number of people say any number of things" - is exactly the point. Plenty of people say they agree with each side, which is why this would be taking a side on who is right. When trying to figure out if people have enough general agreement that it would not be giving undue weight or taking a side, what said people actually think is the main important thing. @Konsio Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 21:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Me Da Wikipedian, perhaps you meant "@Kinsio" – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) 21:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are doing it again, expressing your personal opinion as if it were a fact, without any sources. Which "people" are you talking about and what are your sources? Selfstudier (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I showed sources earlier (nearly 10 of them) indicating that people are quite divided on the issue. And by people I mean the public, human beings, Homo Sapiens, however you want to describe it. Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 23:31, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean the bare urls below, that's meaningless without quotes and you still have not explained "more or less equal". Says who? Selfstudier (talk) 00:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The polls says so. Many are within 1% of equal yes vs. no Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 00:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which polls? Sources please. Selfstudier (talk) 00:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources I gave. Look at them please Me Da Wikipedian (talk) 00:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ONUS is on you to prove your claims, you say ""more or less equal". Prove it. Selfstudier (talk) 00:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You don't even say who is saying that, when they said it, nothing. Selfstudier (talk) 00:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you confusing Middle East scholars, a.k.a. scholars of the Middle East, with scholars from the Middle East? Because those are very much not the same thing. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These sources are not scholarship. Levivich (talk) 15:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To actually start off answering your request, I'd like to incorporate by reference here the table of sources above. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 02:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A note that I was requesting sources regarding average academic consensus statistics, and from reliable well-informed organisations, not United States public opinion polls (from the country in the world that is most biased in favour of Israel's policies no matter what it does), directly involved parties, the expressed viewpoints of propagandistic individual journalists, or a list of individual academics that agree with a personal viewpoint. The latter options are comparatively irrelevant for our purposes here. David A (talk) 03:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in order to clarify a severe misrepresentation of information above, the opinion poll that I initially cited above was made with 758 mostly U.S.-based Middle East scholars who study this issue, not people who live in the Middle East. David A (talk) 03:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Starting to look for good sources to put here, will add anything useful-looking I find into this comment.

"

It is the consensus of our scientific community that we are currently witnessing these risks and tendencies taking place in a particularly intensive form in Gaza, Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank. Palestinians within the 1948 boundaries (now Israel) are also experiencing high levels of threat.

Cumulatively the evidence firmly indicates that in a disproportionate response to the Hamas killings of October 7 the Israeli state is employing its extensive and advanced military capacity to inflict violence on Palestinian peoples on such a scale that it is accurate to frame it as the annihilation phase of genocide.

”

— Green, Penny; Lasslett, Kristian; McCulloch, Jude; et al. (2024-02-16). "International Expert Statement on Israeli State Crime". State Crime Journal. 12 (2). doi:10.13169/statecrime.12.2.0126. ISSN 2046-6056. Archived from the original on 2024-05-29. Retrieved 2024-06-28. Statement written and signed by members of an international community of scholars with globally recognised criminological expertise in the area of state crime.

"

The characterisation of Israeli actions in Gaza as genocide by UN experts and international legal scholars should mark a turning point, Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor said today, in a call for Israel to be held accountable for its crimes.

"As scholars and practitioners of international law, conflict studies, and genocide studies, we are compelled to sound the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip," reads the public statement signed by 880 scholars on 15 October. The statement was released one week after the Israeli aggression on Gaza began, with less than 20% of the current tally of deaths and destruction.

The public statement highlighted the overwhelming evidence that Israel had carried out genocide against civilians in the Gaza Strip, including disproportionate attacks and indiscriminate bombing, the destruction of residential neighbourhoods, the use of starvation as a weapon, and the complete cutoff of humanitarian supplies.

”

— "Scholars' consensus: Genocide in Gaza marks turning point, Israel must be held accountable" (Press release). Geneva: Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor. 2023-11-03. Archived from the original on 2024-05-15. Retrieved 2024-06-28.

Kinsio (talk ★ contribs) 04:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for helping out. Here are the sections of this Wikipedia page that seems to contain the most relevant academic references to collect and list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Israeli_attack_on_Gaza#Academic_and_legal_discourse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Israeli_attack_on_Gaza#NGOs_and_intergovernmental_organisations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Israeli_attack_on_Gaza#Legal_proceedings

David A (talk) 04:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~@Kinsio: This page is under discretionary extended confirmed restrictions and accounts that don't have at least 500 edits can't comment here. I'm sorry.~~ — kashmīrī ^TALK 07:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kinsio is EC. Selfstudier (talk) 08:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, ok, didn't notice at first that she has old accounts. No probs then. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kinsio: You can still help out here if you wish. David A (talk) 10:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly I'm really starting to feel like energy I could expend adding here would be more productively directed toward the article itself (and I don't want to be responsible for heaping even more work onto the poor closer), which is why I kinda dropped out of all this. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 19:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found old news from October 18, 2023, according to which more than 800 scholars of international law and genocide signed a public statement arguing that the Israeli military may be committing genocidal acts against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, and that was obviously long before the present level of much greater devastation had occurred. David A (talk) 08:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment leaderboard

Based on comments throughout the main section and sub-sections (excluding pinging editors that is collapsed), as of of 10:52, 30 June 2024 (diff):

Selfstudier - 77
Vegan416 - 51
Iskandar323 - 37
FortunateSons - 37
David A - 35
Me Da Wikipedian - 28
Cdjp1 - 20
kashmīrī - 18
Levivich - 18
xDanielx - 11

It's "only" been 2 weeks since the Three options survey began and as has been pointed in out in a recent contentious RfC:

"Id suggest if you dont feel youve gotten your point across after 20 comments that comments 21-10000 will not be helpful, and at a certain point dominating a discussion like this is straightforward bludgeoning [...]."

I'm not necessarily suggesting any of you stop commenting, only that repeating the same arguments over and over is no longer helpful and is only bludgeoning !voters and the process at this point, whereas working on the source table could be considered valuable still. The fact that four of you have made it to the top of a comment leaderboard again has been noted. Editors listed 7-10 have only been added as a reference point to show the disparity between those who have commented the most and other editors. If I missed anyone, let me know. CNC (talk) 11:43, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how you count the comments, but many of my comments actually were updates to the Sources table. I don't think that adding sources to this table or correcting them should be counted as bludgeoning. In fact I suggest to add this table to a separate section. Maybe even stick it at the top if there's a way to do that, since it will probably be useful way beyond this particular RM. Vegan416 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The comment counting is based on counting replies, avoiding pings or referencing users, which is easily achieved using a search function "User (talk)" within that section. To clarify, I never suggested updating/expanding the source table was bludgeoning, this was in reference to replying to voters (in the survey). Granted most of your comments have been in the sources section, but otherwise 24 have been in the survey section, so you've still commented considerably more than most !voters here regardless.

Also let's not pretend that most of the comments in that section are about updating or improving the table, most are arguing with each other over the validity of the sources, which is very much part of the discussion over moving the page. This is exactly why I included these comments as part of the count, as it includes regurgitating the same arguments. CNC (talk) 12:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Idk, comment leaderboards get skewed when there are more socks posting misinformation than editors who've read the sources and can correct it. Levivich (talk) 12:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I'm not claiming it's exact science and I've seen relevant arguments from pretty much all editors on that list. I've also seen a lot of repetitive arguments from many people on this list. This is just food for thought, take it or leave it. CNC (talk) 15:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are good points. However didn't most of these comments occurr after Vegan416 and Me da Wikipedian began to excessively post here a few days ago, which provoked responses from other editors?

Regardless, I would personally much prefer if we all strictly focus on attempting to assemble a good list of reliable academic consensus statistics and official statements from reliable institutions, and then clearly present it for public inspection and evaluation, as I stated in this talk page section above. David A (talk) 15:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your observation is correct:

11:13 June 25 - Total length of RM: 365 lines

FortunateSons - 37
David A - 30
Selfstudier - 20
Iskandar323 - 19
Cdjp1 - 18
Levivich - 13
kashmīrī - 10
xDanielx - 4
Vegan416 - 1
Me Da Wikipedian - 0

13:47 June 27 - Total length of RM: 735 lines

Selfstudier - 55
FortunateSons - 45
Vegan416 - 40
David A - 35
Iskandar323 - 28
Cdjp1 - 22
Levivich - 14
kashmīrī - 11
xDanielx - 5
Me Da Wikipedian - 1

15:14 June 30 - Total length of RM: 835 lines

Selfstudier - 83
Vegan416 - 55
FortunateSons - 51
David A - 48
Iskandar323 - 41
Me Da Wikipedian - 31
Cdjp1 - 28
Levivich - 20
kashmīrī - 18
xDanielx - 11

Levivich (talk) 17:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be to possible to create a version (maybe only of the last one) that excludes all content-unrelated (procedural and conduct) discussions from this count? It might be statistically significant for David and me. FortunateSons (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure it's possible, just needs someone to go through the comments and sort them into categories :-) The list above is a count of signatures appearing in this RM, irrespective of the nature of the comment preceding the signature.

I'm not at all surprised that you (FortunateSons) and David A appear at the top of the June 25 list. In any given discussion, especially a "big" one like this, there will usually be two editors who have posted more comments than everyone else, and they're usually on opposite sides of the discussion. They become like the leading editors of the pro/anti viewpoints. In this case, David voted "3" and began the #Three options subsection, while FS voted "1 (or 2)" and started the #Sources subsection. These are (or were) the two leading editors of the pro/anti viewpoints in this discussion. And if you look at the June 25 leaderboard, it's pretty compressed: top 4 are 37, 30, 20, 19 --- not a huge disparity between them, and not an overwhelming amount of comments for any of them (for a discussion of this nature, given the amount of RS available to examine).

What happened here is this:

On June 23, David pointed out that "3" had 16 votes (out of 23 votes total at that point)
Within a few hours, Monopoly31121993(2) joined the discussion, swinging and pinging
By June 25, it was clear that tactic was ineffectual:
- Monopoly had been taken to AE, and on 06:18 June 25 and 07:55 June 25, two admins supported a TBAN at AE, bringing the total vote there 3-0, making it clear a TBAN would happen (and it since has)
- 08:37 June 25, David pointed out that it was now up to 23-15-12 for Option 3-Option 1-Option 2
Within a few hours of that, on 11:13 June 25, Vegan started bludgeoning this thread (not the first time: [45] [46] [47] [48])
That also didn't really work. By June 27, Vegan had made 40 comments in two days -- more than anyone else had made up to the point when Vegan joined. Vegan couldn't continue at this rate, obviously; they made "only" 15 more comments after June 27.
So on June 27, Me Da Wikipedian joined and made another 31 comments.

This has been an attempt to bludgeon this discussion into a no-consensus (which would maintain the status-quo title). But such tactics don't work in the end, because meanwhile, everyone else has been gathering and discussing sources, and eventually we will land on some consensus. Levivich (talk) 18:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich, I must ask you to take back these baseless accusations that I attempted "to bludgeon this discussion into a no-consensus". The only reason that I joined the discussion only on 11:13 June 25 was because I was unaware of it before then. I only learned of this RM after Selstudier mentioned it on 09:44, 25 June in Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples, where I had previous discussions with him. So it had nothing to do with whatever David pointed to on that day. Also your line "everyone else has been gathering and discussing sources" is funny since in the days since I joined the discussion I actually gathered, discussed and added more sources to the sources table than you did. Vegan416 (talk) 19:13, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The toolforge links don’t work on mobile (or my mobile), but making no statement on any of the claims made, it is a rather interesting picture, and at least your explanation for the first third does makes sense to me.

I’m too lazy to count for everyone, but a quick count for David (vibes based, no strict methodology) lead to about ~15-20 not being content arguments, but discussions about conduct (like the debate about the appropriate treatment of others), procedural (pings, clarifying questions) or requests made to other editors (like requesting source collection). I’m guessing that the picture for some of the others may look pretty similar, likely including me.

That of course doesn’t mean that all or any of those comments are good or bad, but it likely means that this is more an issue of inter-editor discussions than it is a problem with content being bludgeoned. FortunateSons (talk) 19:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"In any given discussion, especially a "big" one like this, there will usually be two editors who have posted more comments than everyone else, and they're usually on opposite sides of the discussion. They become like the leading editors of the pro/anti viewpoints." (emphasis added). Thanks for the insight, this adequately represents the issue; the idea that certain editors become "representatives" of the discussion. This is exactly the problem when the discussion is supposed to be representative of all ECR editors. CNC (talk) 20:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Komnenic, Ana (2 December 2023). "Experts, advocates deeply divided on question of 'genocide' in Gaza". CBC. Archived from the original on 14 January 2024. Retrieved 31 December 2023.
^ International human rights clinic, Boston University School of Law; International human rights clinic, Cornell Law School; Centre for human rights, University of Pretoria; Lowenstein human rights project, Yale Law School (15 May 2024). Genocide in Gaza: Analysis of international law and its application to Israel's military actions since October 7, 2023 (PDF) (Report). University Network for Human Rights.
^ Bouranova, Alene (6 June 2024). "Is Israel Committing Genocide in Gaza? New Report from BU School of Law's International Human Rights Clinic Lays Out Case". Boston University. Archived from the original on 5 June 2024. Retrieved 7 June 2024. The opposition is political, as there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.
^ Gessen, Masha (7 February 2024). "The Limits of Accusing Israel of Genocide". The New Yorker.
^ https://www.yahoo.com/news/white-house-sees-no-genocide-015411552.html
^ https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/24/americans-believe-israel-committing-genocide-poll#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20those%20surveyed,%2C%20while%2030%25%20are%20undecided.
^ https://www.wcvb.com/article/israel-ukraine-support-national-poll-umass-wcvb/46649804
^ https://www.jpost.com/us-elections/article-800603
^ https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/5/8/support-for-a-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-increases-across-party-lines
^ https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/young-americans-think-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza/3122535
^ https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/48442-has-genocide-been-happening-israel-gaza-americans-split-holocaust-native-americans-ukraine-poll
^ https://www.ajc.org/news/5-reasons-why-the-events-in-gaza-are-not-genocide
^ https://www.thefhm.org/pressroom/no-protesters-israel-is-not-committing-genocide/
^ https://www.aei.org/op-eds/israel-is-not-committing-genocide-in-gaza/

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Opening paragraph is unbalanced

The quote "The international human rights legal community, many political and legal experts, and many Holocaust scholars all have consensus that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip", by Susan Akram is a low quality article opener.

The referenced source does not say what this quote is based on, i.e. a quantifiable review of "many political and legal experts, and many holocaust scholars all have consensus...".

Counter quotes by respected professors are abundant as well, and the article description is not the place to pitch the former vs the latter, let alone to reflect only the former.

A more legitimate quote would be the ICJ's ruling, which is significantly more neutral than the aforementioned quote, and definitely comes from a source that is many times more relevant than Suzan Akram. 2A0D:6FC7:50E:1AF6:BCA1:8A53:28C2:407B (talk) 20:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — kashmīrī ^TALK 20:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on the inclusion on the BU Today article in the lede

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How should the statements in this BU Today "Voices & Opinion" article be covered in the lede?

The international human rights legal community, many political and legal experts, and many Holocaust scholars all have consensus that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip. (as seen in this edit)
The international human rights legal community, several political and legal experts, and many Holocaust scholars have concluded that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip. (as seen in this edit)
Do not include

02:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Survey

C This is an opinion article published in a university newspaper. For a topic as well covered as this, to include a statement like this in the first paragraph of the lede on the basis of a single such source is virtually the definition of WP:UNDUE. Further, the suggestion is to include the position expressed in the article in Wikivoice; the sourcing is clearly not strong enough to do this.
It may be appropriate to include the claim in the body attributed in line, but it is clearly inappropriate to include it in the lede in Wikivoice. BilledMammal (talk) 02:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

B or similar, as the statement appears to capture the reality well. Only update the source to: "Israel's Genocide of Palestinians in Gaza". University Network for Human Rights. Retrieved 2024-06-22.. — kashmīrī ^TALK 06:18, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C (generally per BM) the source is undue, and the claim should be made with attribution in the body. Both the BU piece (and the better actual scholarship) are not appropriate, least of all without attribution. FortunateSons (talk) 09:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and particularly A goes beyond what the source states in their own voice IMO, so that’s not great. FortunateSons (talk) 09:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t have a strong opinion on if this specifically should be in the lead, though we do need a summary of the academic discourse section. It does however absolutely belong in the body, and the attempts to claim that an academic expert discussing topics in the area of her expertise is somehow unreliable or undue are straightforward examples of disruptive editing. But does this specifically need to be in the lead? It isn’t the worst thing, it’s an expert giving an overview of the views of other experts. Something needs to be in there about the views of scholars on this topic. This isn’t the worst thing but again no strong opinion on this being the specific source for that summary. nableezy - 12:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
B not because it is something that is only said in the source specifically named by OP but because that or something similar appears to be the prevailing view across relevant scholarship. See the sourcing given in the ongoing RM] that currently appears to have a consensus for amending the article title to Gaza genocide. As for removing the specific material from the body as was done, that is exceptionally difficult to comprehend. Selfstudier (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A combination of A and B: I agree with "A Socialist Trans Girl" below. David A (talk) 10:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C if this is the only source given (which is only a university newspaper, although nonetheless a secondary source summarizing the views of experts) per WP:DUE, but likely A oder B if other sources are added to support it in the body, like Selfstudier mentioned. I don't see A as going beyond what the source says, with the words many and consensus being closer to what the source says:
The opposition is political, as there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.
Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It isn’t the only source, see here. nableezy - 01:54, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, this appears to be a solid source. While it might look like a primary source at first glance, it does in fact give an overview of previous findings in pages 9 to 11, which could be a good secondary source for the statement. I'd support B if that source is added. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 08:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Either of B or A. Neither the source is "merely a random opinion" nor the cited piece of information it provides is source’s own claim or opinion but rather a citation of the consensus in the international human rights legal community. The source is a report published by Boston University and "comes from researchers at the University Network for Human Rights, a consortium of human right centers", therefore the source is indeed reliable for the information it provides, indeed much more than newspapers articles. And the source doesn’t say or give its own opinion regarding the quoted information like saying "we believe there is a genocide" but rather reflects/cites what the international human rights legal community "there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.", it is not the source’s own opinion or judgement. Beside the fact that this isn’t the only reliable source stating so as per @Selfstudier Stephan rostie (talk) 12:25, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But UNHR is neither independent of Akram's BU project nor is it a WP:RS publisher. Nor is it particularly esteemed, celebrated, discussed, or recognized in mainstream published discourse. SPECIFICO talk 21:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you seriously arguing that UNCHR is not a WP:RS ? Stephan rostie (talk) 14:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not UNCHR, UNHR. Selfstudier (talk) 14:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, SS. It show the power of modern-day branding that a vaguely institutional-sounding name like UNHR so easily evokes parity with UNCHR AND miscast as a respected, WP;NOTABLE global institution. SPECIFICO talk 15:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well it is kind of your mistake for making your own abbreviation and writing “UNHR” rather than “University Network

for Human Rights” Stephan rostie (talk) 19:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for elaboration Stephan rostie (talk) 19:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C This is a WP:PRIMARY source, self-published by Akram's employer in a university newsletter. That publication is an appropriate place to inform BU stakeholders of matters relating to the school, but neither that publication nor the fancy-sournding name of Akram's advocacy/activism project can elevate her work to a significant NPOV assessment of the range of current thinking on the issue. We would need a WP:RS publisher, prefereably peer-reviewed, to make a strong statement of a matter of current controversy and pending adjudication. The self-published opinion of a non-NOTABLE individual, however fine her commitment and advocacy, is UNDUE for the lead and should be replaced in the article body with better more reliable sources on the question. She. personally, is certainly not a secondary RS to evaluate the opinions of other observers. That should be clear to any WP editor. We need secondary RS publishers for that.

Further, whoever closes this -- please note that several !votes seems to say that, because her views seem OK therefore we can use defectively sourced content. Not so. SPECIFICO talk 16:18, 23 June 2024 (UTC),[reply]

It is not self published and a second source has been provided and not a single vote says anything close to what you claim in your last couple of sentences. False on all counts actually. nableezy - 17:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The RFC question is "How should the statements in this BU Today "Voices & Opinion" article be covered in the lede?" and the answer is that it should be cited in support of a statement in Wikivoice (can as well be cited to https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/genocide-in-gaza and not only to BU) along with multiple other supporting references saying a similar thing and about which bald assertions such as "self published" (it isn't) and "primary" (policy does not forbid primary source usage) play no part. Closer should refer to the RFCbefore discussion where it can be seen this editor and the RFC opener (who hasn't signed) both edited to suit a POV and when unable to persuade other editors, it led to this RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 18:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Except that there's no supporting evidence that humanrightsnetwork is a significant scholarly, juridical, or other expert organization. It's a student enrichment project and platform for advocacy and activism. All good, but it is not covered in the mainstream as an expert mainstream institution. This is all discussed in the thread prior to this RfC. SPECIFICO talk 20:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It’s a paper by the University Network for Human Rights, the International Human Rights Clinic at Boston University School of Law, the International Human Rights Clinic at Cornell Law School, the Centre for Human Rights at the University of Pretoria, and the Lowenstein Human Rights Project at Yale Law School. Never heard of any of those universities, are they any good? nableezy - 10:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly demonstrate that UNHR is a noteworhty RS publisher and that its independent of the person whose opinions are being proposed for article content. Maybe this needs to go to RSN. Namechecking a few ivy insitutions does not address the sourcing and notability issue. Do you have anything to document that the mainstream takes this UNHR seriously or even knows of its existence? Academia is a vast ecosystem with all sorts of offices and projects within its realm. The significant ones produce peer-reviewed, independently-published scholarly research. This is nothing of the sort. SPECIFICO talk 15:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are asking whether anyone could make a satisfactory WP article for it, sure, no problem. The thought occurs to me that you don't like this org because James Cavallaro. Selfstudier (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I did not ask whether it's NOTABLE. We know that it is not. I simply stated the fundamental WP principal, presumably known to editors EC-eligible to here, that an independent RS publisher would be needed even for an attributed opinion. Instead we've seen ad hominiems, personal disparagement, namechecking everyone from Eli Yale to Cavallaro, and folks saying, screw the RS bit, they like what Akram says, (!!!) But nobody seems able to demonstrate that this content is published by RS or meets our V and NPOV policies for any inclusion anywhere on this page. BURDEN and ONUS are out the window on this page. SPECIFICO talk 18:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can make an article, that means its notable. And making such an article would be very easy, just search books, scholar, etc. In any case, it just says the same thing as many others so this is all a lot of unnecessary fuss over nothing. Selfstudier (talk) 18:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Love ya, SS, but you are not a RS either, so saying you think you could write an article doesn't advance the process. But my interest in this from the start has simply been from seeing this self-published opinion (we can call self-published PRIMARY to short-circuit further indignant deflections) being used as if it were an independent RS-published account of a survey of qualified world opinion and with no evidence that Akram is a scholar qualified to make such an assessment. I have no opinion as to the underlying issue and I have expressed none. I've consistently said that I expect that better, solid RS could be found to address this content. I don't anticipate what they might say, but it's a shame to see editors ignore core policy to grab a handy blurb out of a promotional university newsletter and elevate it with a word salad of recognizable institution names, and buzzwords. You appear to be knowledgeable in the field. Please find valid sourcing and notable qualified experts to address the question. SPECIFICO talk 19:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ive already shown you Akram's publications, the UNHR director is James Cavallaro, also a widely published expert in the field of international law, the Cornell program is led by Susan Babcock, who is, you guessed it, again a widely published expert in the field. You cant just say that the scholarship here isnt notable or noteworthy, what matters is that it is reliable, and it is reliable because of the people and institutions behind it. nableezy - 19:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is, again, more equivocation, namedropping, and elevation of a non-notable author's self-published (PRIMARY) opinion, broadcast in a Univeristy house organ circulated to its stakeholders. There are many stronger sources and there are scholars whose views should be prioritized above those of an activist/advocate. Her worki stands on its own, but she is not a scholar and her opinions are not of such note that this encuclopedia should rebroadcast them when the mainstream media and peer reviewed publications or RS journals have not done so. That is our responsibility on this project. We don't simply publish the opinions of people whose work or opinions we may admire. SPECIFICO talk 17:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Susan Akram, as a simple Google search says, is a law professor and director of the rights clinic at Boston University School of Law teaching international human rights, and refugee and immigration law. That apart I have edited a bit in the article to make things clearer, there is literally no basis for objecting to the sources, neither her expert opinion nor the UHRU report itself.

No-one is really disputing that Akram alone should be in the lead so this entire RFC and this dialogue are just one oversized straw man designed to throw shade on the idea that Israel may be guilty of genocide.

What y'all need to do, instead of shooting the messengers, is accumulate a sufficient number of RS specifying that Israel is not committing a genocide in order to constitute a significant view in that regard as counterpoint to the already demonstrated significant view that Israel is committing a genocide. Selfstudier (talk) 17:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have no opinion as to the allegation. Now, I see you've changed the article content before the resolution of this ongoing RfC. It's now quoting multiple self-published, primary sources, again highlighting non-NOTABLE Ms. Akram without independent RS indicating any WEIGHT for her conclusions. If your googling found mainstream RS citations to establish the NOTABILITY of Akram such as might justify these primary sourced opinions, pleaase provide them in lieu of the various ad hominem attacks and deflections. I am focused only on policy and sourcing and there's no basis for any claim that I am trying to do what various supporters of Ms. Akram have stated they're doing here - pushing article content because I wish to support a personal opinion. SPECIFICO talk 18:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to discuss that at RSN anytime but since it is not going into the lead anyway, it has nothing to do with this RFC. I have changed the article content but I have not changed anything in the lead, which is what this RFC purports to be about. Selfstudier (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it were self-published, which it is not, it would clearly pass WP:EXPERTSPS. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. nableezy - 19:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

B Selfstudier's reasoning pretty much sums it up. M.Bitton (talk) 14:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C or an attributed statement. Interpreting consensus on a highly contentious topic across multiple (academic, legal and political) communities is a messy and somewhat subjective matter. While Akram is an expert, there isn't enough clarity and objectivity here to take a single expert's interpretation of consensus as established fact, and repeat it in wikivoice. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 22:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
B although I would prefer if a stronger source could be found to summarize opinion, it is a good summary of other sources that otherwise may be impossible to extract without WP:OR. (t · c) buidhe 03:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
B: This statement is already more than supported by the aggregation of sources on the page. The discussed source, alongside the UNHR, merely helps provide a more sourced basis for the summary wording, which is beneficial. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C Do not include, or only as an attributed statement. As per BilledMammal, xDanielx and FortunateSons. I would also add that when a person, even an expert, claims that the consensus agrees with his view, as is the case with Susan Akram, it is a somewhat doubtful testimony as it is self-serving. It is different when a person admits that his view contradicts the consensus because then the testimony is not self-serving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vegan416 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Combination. I think it should be The international human rights legal community, many political and legal experts, and many Holocaust scholars all have concluded that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip.. I believe it should be many political and legal experts, as it's more accurate than 'several' and is consistent with how Wikipedia frames things; if it was not many enough to be many and merely several, then it'd probably be WP:UNDUE. And I think the concluded phrasing is better, as consensus implies they as a whole have consensus, not phrasing limited to the ones that do. I also support the phrasing of "The international human rights legal community, political and legal experts, and Holocaust scholars, all have consensus that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip.". ~~There should be a comma before "all have consensus"~~. A Socialist Trans Girl 22:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support these suggested modifications. David A (talk) 10:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The removal of the vague "many" and "several" would be no loss. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Agreed. David A (talk) 16:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

C and WP:UNDUE. Do not include. Hogo-2020 (talk) 06:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C per SPECIFICO's reasonign. Given the sensitivity of the subject matter, our sources should be ironclad. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sources are ironclad. SPECIFICO's reasoning makes a mockery of WP:RS which places established academic experts near the top of our reliability pyramid. nableezy - 15:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nableezy, please review the WP:REPUTABLE section of our RS page to see your error explained more thoroughly. There are numerous PRIMARY and self-published sources, including blog opinions of grad students, where independent RS publications are required. SPECIFICO talk 16:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please tell us what self-published means? nableezy - 17:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of your continued opinion on this subject. That was mine. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 09:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This whole RFC is completely academic after the rename, the lead will in effect explain how the title fits into the scope and the particular ref subject of this RFC is just one of several that will allow a statement in wikivoice. Selfstudier (talk) 11:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what this has to do with the price of tea in China. I expressed my opinion that I agreed with SPECIFICO's reasoning on this particular issue. The closer is free to take my opinion into consideration with the weight they feel is appropriate.

I do want to congratulate you and Nableezy on your apparent promotions to WP:INQUISITOR. For future reference, what is the proper procedure for me to follow when expressing future opinions? Do I have to ask for permission from one or both of you to express an opinion or do I need specific pre-clearance for the exact opinion that will be expressed? Thanks in advance. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kommentar - @A Socialist Trans Girl: I'm pretty sure that the comma before all is not grammatically correct. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 15:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kinsio I believe you are correct. Apologies. A Socialist Trans Girl 02:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A and B per A Socialist Trans Girl (and Iskandar's tweaks). Combining both sentences seems appropiate given the recent article name/scope change and it's a proper summary of other sources in the body. Disagree with the UNDUE arguments - experts opinions are absolutely due and as shown by nableezy this has also been covered by secondary sources. - Ïvana (talk) 01:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We absolutely need some statement summarizing academic discourse, hence I strongly oppose option C as a violation of WP:LEAD. The article currently has an entire section on "Academic and legal discourse", "Cultural discourse" and academic opinions are throughout the article. Unless such academic opinions are being given UNDUE weight in the body (and there is no evidence of that), we need to summarize them somehow in the lead too.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 05:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

It may need clarifying that a mention of the Stanford report has already been included in the article, and what the RfC aims to achieve is a better wording. The current suboptimal wording will likely remain if there's no consensus. Editors are welcome to propose further wording options for this RfC. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given it's an opinion, why is there no option for attribution per WP:RSOPINION? Ie, "According to the University Network for Human Rights", per the content in the body. Either way, have to agree with others that it doesn't seem due in the lead, unless covered by other reliable sources; the proposed sentences are just a regurgitation of of the body, not a summary of it. A lead summary would be something like "Certain scholars, A, B to C, consider it a genocide, due to..., disputed by X, Y and Z, because of...". As far as I can tell nothing in the "Academic and legal discourse" has been summarised in the lead, despite numerous paragraphs of content. It's better to work on summarising the content for the lead per MOS:INTRO, rather than trying to pick out one particular report. CNC (talk) 23:26, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With better sourcing, I'd be willing to support. Or re-wording to satisfy a bundle of sources. CNC (talk) 23:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thus far, we have no evidence that "UNHR" is a significant organization or that its title should be used to elevate one person's primary-sourced opinion. SPECIFICO talk 08:36, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the expansion of the "alleged genocidal intent" section to include "genocidal rhetoric"

I originally expanded the passage quoting Michael Sfard because it was clearly cherrypicked, but upon a more careful reading of the surrounding text, it actually seems outside of the scope of this article entirely. Besides clearly breaking the logical flow of the section it's in (interrupting a section talking specifically about cabinet ministers to make a point about genocidal rhetoric in Israeli society generally), there's not really any section that it feels like it belongs in, because the only rhetoric that's particularly relevant to this article is that of people in positions of power (for whom it could plausibly indicate intent, as the section title indicates). The expansion of the section title to include "genocidal rhetoric" also feels a bit redundant for that reason, and only seems to have been added to justify the passage's inclusion. I'd normally remove this myself but I'm pretty sure I'm tapped out on my 1RR for the time being. Tagging in Wafflefrites as your edits inserted ([49] [50]) and reinserted ([51]) the text in question, and Cdjp1 as your edit was the partial revert Wafflefrites was responding to. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 14:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kinsio My partial reversion was due to the comment seeming to be outside of scope. I have no advice for how to resolve. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1: In my initial bold edit that I self-reverted because of my 1RR concerns I removed the whole passage, but honestly the way you handled it in your partial reversion was probably better. The part referring to the flood of statements now made by politicians, journalists and celebrities I can see being justified staying, but the rest of what Sfard said is definitely out of scope. (And I do feel like "genocidal rhetoric" in the section title is redundant because that's the main type of evidence being provided in the section for "alleged genocidal intent".) Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 15:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kinsio Most of the sources that contain the quotes from officials do not even allege “genocidal intent”, but some do say the statements by various officials are examples of “genocidal rhetoric”, for example The New Arab. I expanded the section heading name to include “genocidal rhetoric”, otherwise the rest of the section seemed to me as being original research with editors documenting various statements as alleged genocidal intent when some of the sources like The New Arab do not even call it intent.

in regards to the comment on cherrypicking, ironically that is what I pointed out in my edit summary. Per our policy on NPOV and specifically the section on balancing aspects, “ An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject.” The New Arab published many examples it identified as genocidal rhetoric, but it also interviewed an Israeli human rights lawyer to provide context on these statements. So not including the quotes or paraphrasing of his statements would be WP:CHERRYPICKING.

It is not outside the scope, as it is in The New Arab’s article on genocide rhetoric. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wafflefrites: Most of the sources that contain the quotes from officials do not even allege “genocidal intent” ... I believe the allegation of the statements constituting genocidal intent can be found in South Africa's application in South Africa v. Israel, so I might see if I can find some explicit references to add in there. And as I stated above in my response to Cdjp1, the initial part of the statement does make sense to provide context for Israeli thinking, but I think it's fair to say that everything from We have become accustomed to genocidal rhetoric that comes from Hamas forward is out of scope. My concern about cherrypicking has to do with the extent of the source included in your edits, which makes it sound like Sfard's remark about Hamas was an independent point rather than a segue into talking about the proliferation of genocidal rhetoric in Israeli society (and even if it had been, whatever Hamas did or did not say is definitely outside the scope of a section about statements made by Israeli officials). Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 16:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not outside the scope of proliferation of genocidal rhetoric in Israeli society, and it provides political context for the Israeli statements, so it is due and within scope. The New Arab decided to include that quote for a reason, alongside its examples of genocidal rhetoric. My second edit where I paraphrased instead of directly quoting removed “ We have become accustomed to genocidal rhetoric that comes from Hamas”. Wafflefrites (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unless we are trying to argue that Hamas rhetoric constitutes some kind of exculpatory explanation for alleged genocide by Israel, I don't see what Hamas alleged incitement has to do with this article. Selfstudier (talk) 17:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please read Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent: “it is possible to explain why certain individuals did terrible things, without either endorsing them or adding one's own proofs that they were evil or wrong.”

My intention was not to justify genocidal rhetoric but to provide additional context for why officials may have said what they said. It’s not justification but context, answering the why. But if the consensus is to exclude information, I am fine with that. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it were the case, then one could equally argue that Hamas actions are equally justified by prior Israeli war crimes. Of course they are not, in either case. Selfstudier (talk) 17:18, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That’s why Hamas’ motivations are included in the Israel–Hamas war article. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not about genocidal rhetoric in Israeli society generally. That portion of Sfard's statement (and I'm intending to refer to the incorporation of its content into the article generally here, whether by direct quotation or by paraphrase, to be clear) is definitely out of scope of the section it's currently in (specifically discussing cabinet ministers), but there's not really any logical place to move it to either because it's too broad (Israeli society generally, vs. statements of officials, for whom it could be argued to constitute intent). The statements by officials are already referred to in the first portion (statements now made by politicians ...). Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 17:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source says “ While extremist rhetoric has existed throughout the state’s history, incendiary language has now become normalised across every level of Israeli society.”

Every level of society includes politicians. I added “genocidal rhetoric” to the section heading because some of the sources in the section are not talking about genocidal intent, but genocidal rhetoric. I think some other sources may also be talking about genocidal incitement (kind of like how Trump is sometimes accused of using language that incites violence, which is different from him intending violence). Since not all of the sources in the section were on the subject of intent, I expanded the heading so that the existing sources outside the scope of intent could be included. Otherwise, I would suggest removing the quotes and sources that are not on the topic of intent. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You will also find a variety of the statements references in the articles published in the Journal of Genocide Research, saying such statements are evidence of genocidal intent. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn’t delete “genocidal intent”, I added “genocidal rhetoric”. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You also said above I expanded the section heading name to include “genocidal rhetoric”, otherwise the rest of the section seemed to me as being original research with editors documenting various statements as alleged genocidal intent when some of the sources like The New Arab do not even call it intent. (Also, since seeing it in your comment when I pasted it in here reminded me, make sure you're aware of MOS:CURLY, I noticed that was one of the things Cdjp1 fixed in the text you added as well.) Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 17:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And some of them don’t like The New Arab and this NBC one that was used [52]. I don’t mind removing all the sources that don’t allege genocidal intent but I think this would remove quite a few sentences/quotes from the section. I don’t think this AP news that was used contain the word “genocide” https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-evacuation-history-nakba-a1bec1ee3477573e80b39b4044a48111. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly the NBC article also says, “ He noted that the right-wing ministers who made the comments are "not in the war cabinet," so their words can only have so much impact on Israeli policy.”

@Kinsio@Selfstudier@Cdjp1, Wondering if there are any objections if I add this under the Alleged genocidal intent section if we decide to keep the NBC source. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When this war ends and the vast, vast, vast majority of Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank are still alive and negotiating begin about the future of their region and political administration etc., will this article be deleted, or will this remain as yet another blood libel against the Jewish people? KronosAlight (talk) 22:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTAFORUM Selfstudier (talk) 22:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on page move moratorium

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Megabytes of text have been written on this Talk in the last 30 days, with 87 distinct editors making a total of 917 edits. Arguments were traded, insults flew. Most of it was a discussion about the page title. I'm glad that Joe Roe has now skilfully closed the heated debate with an excellent summary.

As the new title needs to "settle in", I'd like to propose a temporary moratorium on further rename discussions. Please kindly indicate your preferences from among:

A-6 – A six-month moratorium on page move requests
A-12 – A 12-month moratorium on page move requests
A-24 – A 24-month moratorium on page move requests
B – No page move moratorium

Thank you. — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

B Unnecessary. Selfstudier (talk) 13:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A-12: Unlikely that the situation on the ground will warrant a rename anytime sooner, while a moratorium will certainly save everyone's time. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A-24: Given the sheer massive amounts of controversy and conflict that this topic has generated, I do not think that we should revisit it any time soon. David A (talk) 14:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

B – WP:NO-PREEMPT. It's best we discuss this only if there are disruptive requests to move the article again. I think it's pretty common to close requests right away if there is no new information that would change the result anyway. FunLater (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

B considering that the RfC was relatively close after a very recent RfC with the opposite results, a variety of real-world factors and events could rapidly change in a way that would lead to a justified move. If someone proposes a bad move, we can deal with it through existing policy. Particularly opposed to A-24, as it could theoretically (despite the low risk) interfere with the time frame of ICJ or ICC decisions with significant impact on RS coverage. FortunateSons (talk) 15:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

B – I think this is more an argument for involved editors being more thoughtful and moving extensive discussions on topics that are getting away from strict relevance to the question under discussion to a different section of the talk page (or to user talk pages, as the case may be) than for foreclosing on certain types of discussions entirely because they're too "risky". Let's trust editors to be responsible and respond accordingly if they fail to do so, rather than tying their hands. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 19:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

B – No reason to treat this differently from any other contentious topic. Vegan416 (talk) 19:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overdoing it

Gaza genocide is the systematic destruction of Palestinian people being carried out by Israel in the Gaza Strip during the ongoing Israel–Hamas war and a short description Ongoing mass murder in the Gaza Strip is imo way ott.

I don't think the title should be bolded because it is not a common name it is simply a short form descriptive title representing the consensus of a subject of debate. I kinda liked it the way it was to start with, perhaps adding some words about the consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't like it, really. I tried to put myself in the shoes of a random reader who's heard the term "genocide in Gaza" somewhere and would like to learn what's that. The earlier wording offered very little to such a person – the first sentence contained just too many details. It was more an attempt to explain ignotum per ignotius: the reader was not told what Gaza genocide in simple English is but instead was taken through a debate on the term and various related concepts/events. So I tried to offer a simple definition, closely paraphrasing the opening sentence and short description at Armenian genocide. Will this do the job? Possibly. Will everyone like it? Unlikely. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The move request was only about the title. Stating affirmatively "there is a genocide" in wikivoice would require a RfC. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That would be pointless. We don't do RfCs on what sources say. At best, we can attribute statements and opinions. — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Hemiauchenia; we've gone beyond what the RM supported. BilledMammal (talk) 02:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, and there is also the issue with using the word Murder, which generally refers to unlawful killings, for which there is no broad consensus for the overwhelming majority of cases covered as part of the article. FortunateSons (talk) 17:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. "Ongoing atrocities in the Gaza Strip"? — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:40, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Modeling on Armenian genocide is part of the problem, as that one has a greater degree of RS acceptance and therefore allows for clearer language, while we should not refer to this case as a genocide in Wikivoice. The murder issue can probably simply resolved by referring to killings (or deaths, if you want to include casualties only indirectly attributable to Israel)? FortunateSons (talk) 17:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The scope of the article is the title plus the first sentence. So what is the article about? Selfstudier (talk) 17:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In line with how the article is written, the first sentence should be clear that it’s discussing controversial allegations (or accusations, though English not being my first language may mean that some of the nuance between those two might be lost on me). I’m not sure what the issues with the original version was, as I recall, it seemed fine to me? FortunateSons (talk) 17:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since it's in court as well as debated, accusations. It seems more or less OK now after Hemiauchenia edit. Short description can follow. Selfstudier (talk) 18:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would there be any issue with going back to the stable version prior to this diff? FortunateSons (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it was me, I'd put Gaza genocide accusations. Selfstudier (talk) 18:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well no. The article doesn't discuss accusations, ie., a certain narrative, story, or opinions flying around. It focuses – or should focus – on the acts of the Israeli military, their impact and their legal qualification. Accusations are not the topic; atrocities are. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. The "acts" are (likely) war crimes or crimes against humanity. At some point, the sum total of all these acts plus incitement/intent can turn it into the third (Atrocity crime). However, altho the acts are obviously an element in the debate, the article it seems to me is more about "is it/isn't it"? Selfstudier (talk) 18:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As written now (IMO, rightly), it’s closer to discussing how it is perceived or evaluated by RS, so allegations/accusations works best for me FortunateSons (talk) 18:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Killings" is a bit too narrow IMO, given that we also have starvation, have deprivation of water ("imposing conditions of life...", etc.), deliberate destruction of housing, targetting of schools, forced displacement, etc. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Killings (and deaths/murders) all have that scope issue FortunateSons (talk) 18:23, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. The definition of the crime of genocide includes all manner of crimes and atrocities that contribute to the degradation of the conditions that support life or impinge on the sociocultural integrity of a people. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uh huh, except that the article is not only a discussion of the crime, that's South Africa's genocide case against Israel, but academic, legal and other opinion on the matter of it being "genocidal", let's say. Selfstudier (talk) 18:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The cultural genocide, [53][54], etc. is also all quite well covered. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to add that this generally goes both ways. We should neither be using the word "murder" here, nor in an of the articles relating to 2023 October 7 attacks. The neutral term is "killing(s)". VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 02:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is true, and a good point. However, this is a primary concern in cases where RS don’t use it, and there are concerns concerns about it being legal (wikipedia is not an RS, but “the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse committed with the necessary intention as defined by the law in a specific jurisdiction.”) might be less problematic with Oct 7. Do you happen to know what the sourcing looks like about using the words? FortunateSons (talk) 07:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on a quick search, almost all use cases in the article seem unproblematic, either because they are quotes/paraphrasing or obvious cases. Are there any specific ones you are concerned about? FortunateSons (talk) 07:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eg this correction I made. Unless there is a conviction, we can't call something murder, and even in cases of conviction one has to consider if significant players have raised questions about how fair the process is.

Undoubtedly both the IDF and Hamas have been accused of deliberate by lots of very reliable sources, but we should prefer "killing".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I haven’t looked into if murder can be uniformly used here (in line with RS), and therefore withhold my judgement. However, as the attack itself was likely not legal, and the civilians were specifically targeted without apparent legal reason, it’s likely that we either have or will have enough RS coverage for the murder label being unproblematic. This may be more of an issue for soldiers, but those are not counted here afaik. Regarding kidnapped, it seems to be the term used by at least some cited RS, so this would require further explanation from you? FortunateSons (talk) 19:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other contributors to imminent famine conditions

@M.Bitton Here are the other contributors copied from the Gaza famine article:

In February 2024, The Wall Street Journal reported that lawlessness in Gaza was hindering aid efforts.^[1] Axios reported that armed gangs have been attacking and looting aid trucks since Hamas police have quit due to Israeli attacks.^[2] A Palestine Red Crescent Society spokesman stated that the civil disorder "contributed to around a 50 percent decrease in the total number of aid trucks entering Gaza in February" and an Egyptian aid truck driver described people climbing and smashing aid trucks.^[3]^[4] Palestinian officials and Hamas sources said in March that masked and armed Palestinian clans and factions were beginning to provide protection for aid convoys. They said that efforts by Israel to cooperate with clans for security were being resisted, but that Hamas was able to rally the clans. A spokesperson for UNRWA said she had no knowledge of masked men protecting convoys, and an UN Humanitarian Coordinator for the Occupied Palestinian Territory said the UN was not in cooperation with clans.^[5]

In June, The New York Times reported that relief groups had stopped delivering aid to southern Gaza due to looting and attacks from armed gangs, with aid trucks being peppered by bullet holes on supply routes. Both commercial and aid agencies decided that they could not risk employees’ lives. One aid worker described the daily attacks from armed criminal gangs in the Israel-Gaza border area as being coordinated and organized. The worker said that sometimes the aid truck drivers were beaten.^[6] AP News spoke with an UN official who described thousands of aid trucks piled up, armed groups regularly obstructing convoys, and drivers being held at gunpoint.^[7] A worker at a Palestinian trucking company said that aid was spoiling in the hot weather. To try to make up for the aid deficiency, Israel allowed more commercial trucks into Gaza from Israel and the occupied West Bank, which unlike UN convoys, usually travel with armed protection. One Gazan businessman said that in the past he paid thousands of dollars to other Gazans to protect his trucks.^[6] An associate professor of political science at Al-Azhar University said the lawlessness is a result of increasing desperation and the power vacuum left from Hamas' decreasing power over Gaza. He said, "After Hamas came to power, one of the things that they brought under their control was the lawlessness of the so-called big clans" and "Now, that's left for the Palestinians on their own to deal with it. So once again, we are seeing shootings between families, there are thefts, all the bad things are happening."^[7]

In late June, the UN warned that it would suspend aid operations in Gaza unless Israel increased efforts to protect humanitarian workers. A State Department spokesman said that in June, looting and other criminal attacks were the largest barriers to delivering aid, rather than Israeli strikes or Hamas’ commandeering of aid convoys.^[8] Wafflefrites (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, it was not “widespread famine” but imminent famine or high risk of famine. Also from the Gaza famine article:

On 4 June, an updated Famine Review Committee (FRC) report for the IPC from May 2024 regarding April 2024 and projection through July 2024 said that it was unknown whether famine thresholds had been passed in April. It found that it could not endorse a Phase 5 (Famine) classification under the Famine Early Warning system, principally due to "the lack of essential up to date data on human well-being in Northern Gaza, and Gaza at large."^[9] On 30 June 2024, the IPC Global Famine Review Committee released a report that said it could not find evidence of famine in Gaza during its report period based on its surveys of households. It said that conditions in Gaza had slightly improved during this period, due to increased aid and sanitation efforts, but warned that civilians still faced extreme suffering, high famine risk, and needed sustainable aid, saying that the report's findings "should not allow room for complacency about the risk of Famine in the coming weeks and months," and that "The prolonged nature of the crisis means that this risk remains at least as high as at any time during the past few months."^[10] Wafflefrites (talk) 19:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you look at p. 53 (p. 55 of the pdf of the 30 June updated IPC report), Fig 17 and Table 20 show that COGAT facilitated the most number of deliveries and facilitated the most aid in metric tonnes to northern and southern Gaza out of all groups including UNRWA in the months of March through May. Probably because COGAT is armed and UNRWA relied on Gazan police to protect the aid trucks. Wafflefrites (talk) 19:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The new IPC report stated that: “the FRC would like to highlight that the very fact that we are unable to endorse (or not) FEWS NET’s analysis is driven by the lack of essential up to date data on human well-being in Northern Gaza”. Mainly due to the lack of access to substantial recent on-field data from Gaza for which they urgently urged for on-field surveys to be collected.

lastly, israeli politicians and government (such as COGAT are not really reliable sources, at all actually. The most one can do is to say “israel claims …” Stephan rostie (talk) 21:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is from the June 4 report, which is why they said it was not known if famine thresholds had been passed in April. However they did conduct new surveys later, and have concluded, if you read the 30 June report, that there is currently no famine in Gaza in whatever analysis period they were studying Wafflefrites (talk) 21:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wafflefrites: First of all, you don't name a section after an editor (I renamed it for you). Second, once your bold edit has been reverted, you're supposed to respect the BRD process (this is especially important when editing a contentious topic that is under 1R restrictions). Are you going to self-revert? M.Bitton (talk) 20:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn’t realize you were not supposed to name a section with an editor’s name. To me “Revert by M.Bitton” seemed more specific than “July 2024”. I will go ahead and self revert BRD, although I don’t think my edit was particularly bold. I will probably rename this section too to something more specific. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, your second revert violated 1RR. M.Bitton (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So I am I supposed to revert my revert in the article? Or do you mean I should change the Talk page section back to July 2024. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, self-reverting was the right thing to do. I was referring to your revert of my revert (that was your second revert in less than 24 hours). M.Bitton (talk) 20:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ohh, I always appreciate when other editors warn me about that because most times I am not keeping track. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyways I think it best that if you want to say the blockade has caused a widespread famine and that Israel is blocking aid (which is a true but also misleading way to put it), you need a reliable source that says all this and links the components together.

It is true that Israel blocks certain types of aid, but they screen and control all aid that goes into Gaza and they are allowing more aid in than blocking it so the way the sentence is phrased doesn’t sound precisely accurate but I did not know how to fix it, so I just slightly modified the wording. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a citation needed tag for widespread famine. If I have violated 1 RR again please let me know since I wasn’t sure if adding a tag was reverting things. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adding things is never reverting. You can consult WP:REVERT for an explanation of what exactly constitutes reverting. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 22:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The thing you are missing is that israel targeting of Gaza local police and government authorities, which it collectively label as “hamas”, is the main reason for this lawlessness (washington post, 2024), all of which which are direct consequences of israel mass bombing and intentional destruction of Gaza’s infrastructure and effort to paralyze and destroy the order and government authorities from ministeries to hospitals, local police, doctors and ambulance drivers whom israel collectively call “hamas”

this is all result of intentional israel campaign in Gaza. Your argument is as saying “people died in the indian famine because of hunger, not britain” Stephan rostie (talk) 21:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just went with the sources which say “ A Palestine Red Crescent Society spokesman stated that the civil disorder "contributed to around a 50 percent decrease in the total number of aid trucks entering Gaza in February" and the source that says a State Department spokesman said that in June, looting and other criminal attacks were the largest barriers to delivering aid, rather than Israeli strikes or Hamas’ commandeering of aid convoys.

The lead includes Israel blocking of aid and attacking of convoys, but the sources I provided attributed the decrease in the amount of aid going into Gaza directly to the crime, and I didn’t even add this to the lead I just slightly modified the wording. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You still don’t get it, this lack of order is itself because of (part of) israel intentional bombing and targeting of Gaza infrastructure, police and all government and government related authorities which it collectively call “hamas”. In other words, the main cause of this orderlessness is itself part of israel’s own campaign against Gaza. This orderlessness didn’t happen on its own.

the indian famine (and orderlessness too btw) didn’t happen because indians reached that on their own, but because of britain’s policies and campaign in india.

Details as how israel magnified the famine by targeting police and government authorities which caused lawlessness belong to the body as all other details, not the lead Stephan rostie (talk) 21:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we take your explanation at face value, the current text still seems misleading. The current text strongly implies that there's essentially only one reason for famine (or food insecurity), namely the enforced blockade, or Israel blocking or attacking humanitarian convoys. It doesn't mention things like disruption of police services, or even hint that there are other factors at play. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 21:40, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, Mr Rostie,, according to an associate professor of political science at Al-Azhar University, he said the lawlessness is a result of increasing desperation and the power vacuum left from Hamas' decreasing power over Gaza.

The professor didn’t mention the other stuff that you mentioned. I can see how the argument on how they would contribute but we need more sources on that. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Was there famine before the Israeli blockade, bombardment and total destruction of Gaza? M.Bitton (talk) 21:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

my edit was to change “caused” to “contributed”. There are other factors that have contributed to the food insecurity and emergency. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And famine was averted in Yemen in 2019 due to aid efforts even though they were at war. So a big reason for the emergency situation is due to the availability of aid trucks coming in. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know what your edit changed, but the fact that you didn't the answer the question also means that you know that there's something terribly wrong with what you're suggesting. M.Bitton (talk) 21:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The question was a poor one because according to the organization that studies famine, it is unknown if there was famine and they acknowledged in their report that conditions had improved. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you truly believed that was the case, you wouldn't suggest replacing "caused" by "contributed". M.Bitton (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I actually think the entire sentence should go since it is not sourced. Also looking at the Alleged genocidal actions section, I am wondering how many of them contain the word genocide. Probably needs checking for original research.

I don’t think a blockade causes famine, which is what the sentence currently states. After all, Gaza has been under at least partial blockade since 2005. I think a blockade contributes to famine. I think a war causes a famine, and a blockade is part of a war. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:05, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:OR, “ To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support the material being presented.” And “ Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources.” Wafflefrites (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's covered in the article's body (with a link to a dedicated article about it), therefore, it doesn't need to be sourced in the lead. I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 22:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why rather than deleting, I modified the wording to be more accurate. Even the Gaza famine article that is linked doesn’t say there is famine in wiki voice. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just checked your cited sources, two of which are just talking about flour massacre in which israeli forces opened fire on dozens of Gazans.

one states that “Palestinian clans and factions step in to protect Gaza aid”, others

from all the sources, only US spokesperson state claim that the famine is happening because civil disorder. In fact, source [8] that you are citing literally say “The ultimatum is the latest in a series of U.N. steps demanding Israel do more to safeguard aid operations from strikes by its forces and to curb growing lawlessness hindering humanitarian workers.”

your argument isn’t what your cited sources even say, and apparently is WP:UNDUE Stephan rostie (talk) 22:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"and to curb growing lawlessness hindering humanitarian workers.” If you actually read the clans protecting aid article rather than the headline you will see disputes from UN aid workers about masked men and clans working with them. I also did include Hamas and Palestinian officials statements that they were protecting aid trucks. The Flour massacre occurred when Israel was coordinating and providing security into northern Gaza as northern Gaza was incredibly food insecure at that time in February, and aid had been hindered by lawlessness per Palestinian Red Crescent. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also my edit in this article was not to include the info on lawlessness, it was to change “caused” to “contribute” and “widespread” to “imminent” . The reason I provided all the info on lawlessness, and there are more sources in June with the UN directly saying this is why they have stopped aid, was because I was asked to provide what other reasons are contributing to the famine risk.Wafflefrites (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are arguing that sources say that the israeli-induced civil disorder is the main reason or a main reason of the famine in Gaza, thats not what the source is saying

While it is true that the israeli-induced civil disorder is disturbing aid distribution,all sources agree that israel attacks on aid convoys and staff and prevention of aid entry to Gaza are the main reason. It is what caused this mass-starvation in the first place.

btw this disorder is induced by israel to the extent that it targeted even the Palestinian clans and clan leaders that stepped in to protect aid convoys and help maintain order. Stephan rostie (talk) 22:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No I am not arguing that at all. I am saying the crime is a contributing factor, not a root cause or the biggest factor. Which is why I didn’t add to the lead of the Gaza famine article.

I believe your statement about air strikes is accurate pre June, maybe from March to June, but per NYT, in June commercial and aid groups were stopping deliveries to Gaza. So in June it was a big problem but UN has been negotiating with Israel about protective gear and additional monitoring and coordination as the trucks get to warehouses so maybe they will start moving things along in July Wafflefrites (talk) 22:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to point out that this is not the only reason for the starvation. The other two main reasons cited are Israel’s limitation of aid and destruction of infrastructure. Personisinsterest (talk) 23:16, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it is not the only reason. I was asked to provide another reason other than the blockade because I had changed “caused” to “contributed”, and this was in issue in February [55] and June. But I see you have edited the lead to clear up the widespread famine confusion, so thank you, and I am fine with the wording now. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Cloud, David (February 27, 2024). "As Israel Drives Out Hamas, Lawlessness Hampers Gaza Aid Efforts". The Wall Street Journal.
^ Ravid, Barak (Feb 29, 2024). "Dozens of Palestinians killed in incident around Gaza aid convoy". Axios. Archived from the original on 4 March 2024. Retrieved 4 March 2024.
^ Le Masurier, Jessica. "'Flour massacre': Aid delivery turns deadly in Gaza as UN warns famine 'almost inevitable'". www.msn.com. Archived from the original on 25 April 2024. Retrieved 16 March 2024.
^ Le Masurier, Jessica; Khaled, Fatma (March 2024). "'Flour Massacre': Lifesaving Aid Becomes a Deadly Struggle in Gaza". PassBlue. Archived from the original on 2 March 2024. Retrieved 16 March 2024.
^ Al-Mughrabi, Nidal (March 19, 2024). "Palestinian clans and factions step in to protect Gaza aid, sources say". Reuters.
^ ^a ^b Yee, Vivian; Boxerman, Aaron (2024-06-19). "Anarchy Hinders Gaza Aid Efforts, Despite Daily Combat Pause". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2024-06-26.
^ ^a ^b "Israel's pledge to guard an aid route into Gaza falls flat as lawlessness blocks distribution". AP News. 2024-06-20. Retrieved 2024-06-26.
^ "UN tells Israel it will suspend aid operations across Gaza without improved safety". AP News. 25 June 2024. Retrieved 26 June 2024.
^ "Famine Review Committee: Review of the Famine Early Warning Systems Network (FEWS NET) IPC-Compatible Analysis for the Northern Governorates of the Gaza Strip" (PDF). Integrated Food Security Phase Classification. May 2024.
^ "FAMINE REVIEW COMMITTEE: GAZA STRIP, JUNE 2024" (PDF). Retrieved 24 June 2024.

Death of NPOV

This article signals the death of WP:NPOV and Wikipedia is the much poorer for it.

That a core tenet of the five pillars can be disregarded and bulldozed in order to accomodate a certain narrative is a very sad day.

We're not allowed to say things because of WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY but then not only something like this happens, it's ok. The RFC system currently in place may be ok when something more trivial is being discussed - not the way it's been used since October 7.

We can find the Professor of Anywhere who says that the sky is green and this is covered in whatever Journal. Doesn't make it true. And that people are saying a lot of things about Israel - doesn't make them true. Doesn't make them Wikipedia worthy.

Given the contention, we should collectively uphold WP:NPOV to an even higher level in order to create an encyclopedia everyone can be proud of. But what's happened instead doesn't reflect well on this incredible site. MaskedSinger (talk) 20:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the death of WP:NPOV What? Have they burned all the RS? I would have heard, surely?

However, what has any of this to do with improving the article (what this talk page is for). Selfstudier (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the sourcing that has been marshalled in this article, to merely dismiss the argument for genocide with the sentence We can find the Professor of Anywhere who says that the sky is green and this is covered in whatever Journal. Doesn't make it true doesn't even come close to rebutting it. For anything related to the Israel-Palestine conflict, you're never going to be able to write an article that everybody would consider "neutral" or "unbiased" due to the heavily polarization of the topic area. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTFORUM. We're not allowed to say things because of WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY ... Oh no, the horror of having to treat other people like human beings worthy of respect (?). If there's something you want to say, by all means, say it. You're on this article talk page and clearly very upset about the article; give us specifics about what's wrong with the article and bring some reliable sources along with you to help us fix it. Otherwise you're just being disruptive. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 21:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter what you think. And by the way, it isn't "Professor of Anywhere" saying this is a genocide, its hundreds of academics and UN officials. Personisinsterest (talk) 23:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Completely agree, this and other blatantly NPOV articles such as Nakba and Nuseirat refugee camp massacre are laying waste to any claim Wikipedia is a neutral, impartial source, at least when it comes to the conflict. This is the latest in blatant POV-pushing. It's another double article, when some editors are unsatisfied by the neutral tone of one article they apparently just make a new one that could read like something out of Electronic Intifada. 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight wasn't satisfactory so the Nakba article was born, 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation was apparently too neutral so the Nuseirat refugee camp massacre article was born, now since Palestinian genocide accusation wasn't good enough this disgrace of an article was created.--RM (Be my friend) 19:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTAFORUM Selfstudier (talk) 19:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The articles follow the sources; NPOV doesn't mean "not taking sides in a conflict," it means faithfully following the sources: stating mainstream views in wikivoice while also summarizing significant minority views. The 1948 expulsion and flight was just one part of the Nakba, according to the sources, that's why there are two articles. Just as the Nuseirat massacre was just one part of the Nuseirat raid. Just as the Gaza genocide is just one part of the overall Palestinian genocide accusation. Far from being the death of NPOV, it's because of NPOV that these articles are split from each other: so that one sub-topic does not gain WP:UNDUE prominence in a parent article. This is not Wikipedia dying, it's Wikipedia working as normal. If you think two articles should be merged, feel free to follow the instructions at WP:MERGE. Levivich (talk) 19:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can find a source that says virtually anything. For example, putting the "ongoing Nakba" into Wikivoice is clear POV-pushing, the idea that the Nakba can extend beyond 1948 should be put as an accusation in the original article. Likewise, we don't know how many of the dead in Nuseirat were civilians, calling it a massacre itself in Wikivoice is rather POV. And of course whether there is a genocide or not is one of the most hotly debated subjects between the two camps about this war. To state in Wikivoice that there is a genocide is basically answering the question of "Palestinian genocide accusation." RM (Be my friend) 19:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not hotly debated at all. A lot of experts have come out affirming it. Many more are simply sitting on the fence, presumably either out of fear or genuine professional ambivalence. And there's a formal court case pending. In the meantime, it's a widely discussed and notable topic. There are politicians and media pundits making noises about it, but their voices do not constitute any form of expert-fed debate. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some experts have but I can easily find others claimimg there is no genocide. "Sittimg on the fence" doesn't count, you can't claim there is in fact a large army of people who agree with you but are keeping silent in the absence of hard evidence. Also the cpurt case is, as you said, pending. It has not made a ruling. RM (Be my friend) 20:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not some, an apparent 75% academic area expert majority, whereas only 4% find Israel's current actions legitimate in comparison, and the UN member countries officially for and against the current ongoing atrocities are similarly uneven, if I remember correctly. David A (talk) 21:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Look, there is a consensus, it can be challenged at Move Review, go for it, meantime this blather is just disruption. Selfstudier (talk) 20:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This "blather" is actually meant to establish whether there's a consensus on Wikipedia to allow this article to remain or not. RM (Be my friend) 21:03, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That consensus has already been established and while some may want to complain about that, doing it here is just disruptive. If you want to challenge the consensus, move review, not bludgeoning this talk page, thanks. Selfstudier (talk) 21:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you can find a source that says virtually anything, but you cannot find a reliable source that says virtually anything. We do not state in Wikivoice that there is a genocide in Gaza. Levivich (talk) 04:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, genocide or accused

@Ecpiandy, I see you put the needs update tag because we haven't moved "accused" to "committed" and such. But I don't think the move changes anything; Gaza genocide is a common name to refer to Israel's actions, even used as a shorthand by mainstream media to denote the accusations. But it would not be neutral to fully say it is a genocide. Personisinsterest (talk) 23:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, people are assuming the title = fact, which of course, it doesn't. Selfstudier (talk) 23:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus on a name change means the supplementary sources present the idea it is a genocide; in reflection of this, an article needs to match its name otherwise there is little logic for the name change to begin with. Primary and secondary sources tell us it is a genocide, thus the wording of the article should reflect that. I don't search for State of Palestine and expect an article on Israel's military occupation, I expect an article on the logistics of the Palestinian state; I'd assume similar logic applies here. Ecpiandy (talk) 23:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are two parts to this, see the closer comments. One is the amount of sourcing on the question, which makes it a worthwhile title by itself. Then there is the prevalence of views that it is compared to a minority that it isn't, which deals with the POVTITLE objection, although closer classed this aspect as nocon. There is nothing contradictory in all this. Selfstudier (talk) 23:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Let's see what other people say here first. Ecpiandy (talk) 02:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, per the (very long) sourcing discussion, there is not nearly sufficient consensus by RS to call this a genocide in our own voice, and if it will ever exist, it’s likely to take years to manifest. If I had to guess, it won’t be before an ICJ/ICC decision. FortunateSons (talk) 23:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and for what I have read in the change name discussion, there was no consensus, but a vote, in disregard of WP:POLL. The problem with voting is that it is possible by a very militant faction to organize support. That is why WP:POLL should be applied with particular attention to political issues. Furthermore the new actual article title is a sentence of condemnation. Should innocence until proven guilty not apply ? The point is that three genocides that have been recognized under the 1948 legal definition concern two cases in which about 25% of population was killed (Cambodia and Ruanda) and one case in which in which there was a mass execution of defenseless prisoners (Srebrenica). I don't see something like that happening now in Gaza. --Robertiki (talk) 12:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We are not redoing the RM in this discussion, right? That's done and dusted. Selfstudier (talk) 12:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No sarcasm please and refrain from posting intimidating instructions on my talk page on how to behave on controversial topics. I have 15 years of experience editing Wikipedia, especially on controversial topics. Quantity isn't everything. And I didn't edit in the main space anyway, so what? I was just now aware of the name change, and was disappointed that such a controversial topic was decided by a vote instead by consenus. The move should not had been made. Is it to late, to state that, not having partecipated to the discussion ?--Robertiki (talk) 22:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is, you are explicitly arguing against a recently established consensus. And casting aspersions on the close to the effect that is was a vote rather than a consensus of !votes. As an editor with 15 years of experience editing Wikipedia, especially on controversial topics, I would have though that this is an obvious no-no. The awareness notice is standard for all persons taking an interest in this topic area, nothing personal. Selfstudier (talk) 08:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier: Unless there's a formal moratorium, any editor can challenge the title and start a move request. That's how it works. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If something has changed, what has changed? And if someone wants to contest the RM, then there is MR, right? That's how it works. Selfstudier (talk) 14:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't matter what you think, the RM was decided because the majority of people chose option 3, it was the option most heavily grounded and supported by reliable sources, and "[a] fair number" of people who chose options 1 and 2 were doing so on political grounds. Personisinsterest (talk) 16:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is no democracy and a majority should not decide without consenus. And more, Wikipedia is not a newspaper and we should have waited until full assessment from the judges and international community, possibily at war end. As noted, now Wikipedia is used as a political weapon (talk about page access doubled). --Robertiki (talk) 22:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that the majority decided, it's that the majority had a better argument. Personisinsterest (talk) 22:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a better argument if it hasn't convinced those who disagree. I'm afraid you have no idea what consenus means. "Consensus is the community resolution when opposing parties set aside their differences and agree on a statement that is agreeable to all, even if only barely." . Please read WP:WCON. Thanks. --Robertiki (talk) 23:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is impossible for 100% of the people involved to reach an agreement if the side with opposing arguments is largely far too ideologically and politically invested in a tribalist perspective. The people here who argued for the current title were deemed to have better arguments, much stronger facts and expertice on their side, and considerably more votes, in combination.

However, I do agree with Kashmiri about that we should put an official stop to any further continuous naming discussions, given all of the largely deliberate derailing hostility and spamming done in the preceding one. David A (talk) 04:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is not factually correct. I just counted 60 editors who voted, and 32 votes for option 3. What may have caused confusion here is that quite a lot of editors voted for two options. David A (talk) 06:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FortunateSons: A title isn't wikivoice. A title is a title, which is normally a common term, and sometimes an explicitly POV term. A title does not establish the truth or veracity of the words that it contains. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and while I believe that the title is not ideal in this case, my point was primarily a response to: The consensus on a name change means the supplementary sources present the idea it is a genocide; in reflection of this, an article needs to match its name otherwise there is little logic for the name change to begin with. Primary and secondary sources tell us it is a genocide, thus the wording of the article should reflect that. Looking back, it seems I was less than clear. FortunateSons (talk) 07:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the contrast is strange. You have "Gaza genocide" and yet

The former of the two is also being reviewed at the ICJ. Why is there a difference? Amayorov (talk) 18:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine v. Russian Federation (2022) is a quite different case and not directly comparable. Selfstudier (talk) 18:50, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why are they different? The court also found that Ukraine had "a plausible right not to be subjected to military operations by the Russian Federation for the purpose of preventing and punishing an alleged genocide" in its territory" – similar to the only relevant decisions to date, published by the ICJ. Amayorov (talk) 15:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you think they are the same, then go to the other article and get it changed? What has it to do with this article? WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument. Selfstudier (talk) 15:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's also WP:TITLECON:

Wikipedia:Article titles states as its fifth naming criterion, after recognizability, naturalness, precision, and conciseness: Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles.

In determining the appropriate title for that article, editors should consult the topic-specific conventions that are relevant to a particular article.

Amayorov (talk) 15:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to dispute the current article title, which has consensus, Move Review is the place, where I note no-one has to date contested the recent move. Selfstudier (talk) 15:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying it's either a good or a bad title, but for now, I think the decision to change the title was made too soon. There simply is no clear consensus if this is genocide or not, at least not yet. The ICJ case is still ongoing, the ICC prosecutor requested "only" arrest warrants for crimes against humanity. The Request to move the title was concluded too fast, it should have been left a few months longer for people to discuss it. I was unaware of this even being brought up on the talk page until now. It was initiated on 3 May, and closed just two months later. This gives too little time to gather a broader consensus. I would suggest to re-open the Requested move and leave it open for two more months before closing it.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 13:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An RM lasts for 7 days usually. Selfstudier (talk) 13:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously such a contentious topic and not yet definitive term needs more time than just 7 days to reach a broad consensus.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 09:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After recent title change daily page view jumped from 15 to over a 1000

This tells me why it is important to title article correctly - now this wiki is top in google search for searches related to `Gaza genocide` Gsgdd (talk) 06:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This also shows why it is important to start correcting the massive violations of NPOV in this article. Something that I'll put my mind to next week after finishing some other thing that I committed to. Vegan416 (talk) 07:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has not jumped from 15. The article was averaging around 700 views per day before this: [56] 15 is what "Gaza genocide" was getting when it was a redirect, rather than the main title of the page. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah i see. So its from 700 to 1500. still that's 100% increase Gsgdd (talk) 16:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The previous title was particularly awful and long-winded, so ... Iskandar323 (talk) 06:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why was it awful, as opposed to simply consistent? You have "Gaza genocide" and yet

The former of the two is also being reviewed at the ICJ. Why is there a difference? Would you suggest to change the other two too? Amayorov (talk) 18:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You wrote that in the previous section already and I replied to it there. Two different cases. Read the actual cases and judgements. Selfstudier (talk) 20:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've replied to you in the section above Amayorov (talk) 15:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And not replied to the point below. It doesn't matter anyway, all this arguing against consensus is really pointless. Selfstudier (talk) 16:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from that the reactions of scholars and experts also completely different. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges.Selfstudier (talk) 20:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Double-check my transliteration?

This is for work I'm doing on this article so might as well ask here. Can someone familiar with Hebrew check if I transliterated these titles right according to MOS:HE?

Bergman, Ronen; Zitun, Yoav (10 January 2024a). "Hahora'a: Limno'a mimhavlim lahzor le'aza 'vkol mehir', gam im yes itam hatupim" ההוראה: למנוע ממחבלים לחזור לעזה 'בכל מחיר', גם אם יש איתם חטופים [The instructions: prevent terrorists from returning to Gaza "at all costs" even if there are hostages with them]. Ynet (in Hebrew). Archived from the original on 24 February 2024. Retrieved 12 January 2024.
Bergman, Ronen; Zitun, Yoav (12 January 2024b). "Haso'ot harisonot sel hasavat has'hora" השעות הראשונות של השבת השחורה [The first hours of Black Saturday]. Yedioth Ahronoth (in Hebrew). Archived from the original on 18 January 2024. Retrieved 19 January 2024.

Thanks :) Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 07:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not very good :-) But why bother? There is no requirement to transliterate this. A translation is enough. Vegan416 (talk) 07:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because I need to know which one to make 2024a and which one to make 2024b 😅 Working on moving all the full citations into the "Works cited" section, and as you may notice, these two articles have the same authors and the same year, so the next way to order them in the reference list would be by title alphabetically. And in order to be able to do that I need the titles to be in Latin script. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 12:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not sure whether the ש becomes a s or a sh, as for ח usually transliterated into “ch”, to seperate it from ה. Pronounced ح or kh depending on the speaker. Other than that it’s fine. “Harisonot” is probably HaRashonot The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, the MOS:HE way is ḥ, I just figured it's kinda immaterial since these transliterations are just in order to be able to alphabetize. Might still distinguish it anyway to be thorough. Thanks for the tip on the word though, I used an online tool that automatically adds the nikud and some of them possibly being wrong was my biggest concern here. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 12:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Points to Vegan416 here for honesty. This time I carefully checked to make sure I was getting out the words I thought I was with the vowel pointing, and also realized that I was reading the table backwards for pairs of sounds distinguished by a dagesh (and shin vs. sin). I believe these should be correct now?

HaHora'a: lim'no'a mim'ḥablim laḥazor le'Aza "bekhal meḥir", gam im yesh itam ḥatufim
HaSha'ot harishonot shel HaShabat HaSh'ḥora

Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 17:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

now it's ok, except bekhal > bekhol Vegan416 (talk) 18:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New source for Gaza deaths

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext Vanisherman (talk) 03:25, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. This is a good source. Levivich (talk) 04:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I made some related comments about this here. TLDR: it's not part of the peer-reviewed journal, but a sort of "letter to the editor", and it's unclear how the authors came up with this estimate of future deaths, since there seems to be some mistake with their citation. It might be okay to include, but we should use caution here. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 04:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

True, although we require peer-reviewed articles for biomedical claims only. For other claims, like death count, it's enough that material is published in a high-quality source that has good editorial oversight, which the Lancet doubtlessly is. I'd be all for including the estimates with attribution ("According to Rasha Khatib, Martin McKee, and Salim Yusuf writing in The Lancet...). — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:17, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The author essentially seems to have made a guess based on prior statistics regarding "direct" and "indirect" deaths (without actually arguing that the Gaza Ministry of Health's numbers were "direct" deaths). The author literally says "it is not implausible to estimate" regarding the primary conclusion herein. The wiki article does address this issue with the Lancet article, but it strikes me as ridiculous to give such an obviously flawed article any credence at all. Daniel J. Hakimi (talk) 02:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that this information should be included, given that only the identifiable bodies directly killed by assaults from Israeli forces have been included in the listed statistics here thus far, not the ones hidden under the rubble of collapsed buildings or killed by starvation or diseases as a result from this conflict. David A (talk) 04:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is factually incorrect. The deaths figure reported by the MoH includes missing persons assumed dead, deaths from starvation, disease, etc. It is an aggregate of data directly from hospitals, morgues, and public submissions via online forms (which don't necessarily require a body to be counted). This is also not the same as the headline deaths figure from the GMO, which includes reports from media sources. Depending on the assumptions made about the data, a substantial portion of indirect deaths may already be accounted for. It would probably be less misleading to find actual studies on potential indirect deaths rather than guesstimates from non-experts writing a correspondence. Sir Charms a Lot (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it was clearly stated that the 4x number was a conservative estimate. The maximum was 15x, which would mean over 570,000 total deaths of mainly innocent women and children. Should that be mentioned as well? David A (talk) 05:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We could use this, along with other sources such as Euro-Med Monitor's estimates, to cite a sentence saying other estimates place the death toll higher than the officially reported number, but giving the specific estimates from such peripheral persons would be granting too much weight. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 07:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a number based on make believe future deaths. It would be irresponsible to even consider using that number, or any number that isn't verifiable. Sviscusi (talk) 08:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I understood, it is a number based on current deaths according to standard outcome patterning and methodology. David A (talk) 17:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Main discussion is at Talk:Israel–Hamas_war#Indirect_casualties_from_the_Lancet_study Selfstudier (talk) 15:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. It seems better to continue there. David A (talk) 17:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've also opened a discussion at RSN: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have been told elsewhere that the 186,000 deaths number was intended to refer to projected sum total future deaths from this humanitarian catastrophe, not everybody who have already died, with more indirect causes such as starvation or diseases included. If this is accurate, for the sake of academic reliability, I think that we should modify the phrasing used in this article accordingly. David A (talk) 08:55, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= oder |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The report mentioned in the beginning of "Victims" section is misattributed to EuroMed Rights, whereas it was produced by a different organization with a similar name - Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, also known as Euro-Med Monitor - as can also be seen in the link.

Suggested change:

EuroMed Rights -> Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor Zlmark (talk) 15:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, Selfstudier (talk) 16:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024 (2)

Consolidated to Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Indirect casualties from the Lancet study, please continue discussion there. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 21:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= oder |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

One of the authors of the "Lancet" article mentioned at the end of the "Victims" section issued the following clarification:

"And as our piece has been greatly misquoted and misinterpreted, can we clarify that all we are saying is that the Gaza figures are credible & indirect toll will, in time, likely be much higher. The figure we give is purely illustrative" https://x.com/martinmckee/status/1810251590520950808

Given this clarification, it's best to remove the reference to this estimate entirely, as the author himself describes it as "purely illustrative". Zlmark (talk) 18:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what this request is, are you requesting that all reference to the Lancet piece be removed?

Also see Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Indirect casualties from the Lancet study Selfstudier (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I request to remove the reference to the Lancet, because its only added value was the specific estimate, but now one of the authors clarified that it's "purely illustrative", as far as he's concerned.

This, along with the facts mentioned by other contributors - lack of peer-review, future projections mistakenly framed as current estimates and questionable methodology based on comparison to other conflicts with different dynamics - justifies a removal of this reference, in my view. Zlmark (talk) 18:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, EC editors will discuss that and decide what to do. Thanks for your input. Selfstudier (talk) 18:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And Talk:Palestinian genocide accusation#Estimate of future deaths Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These various discussions should probably be consolidated in one place? Maybe the main war article talk page? Levivich (talk) 18:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a plan, what to do, copy paste? Selfstudier (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, copy pasted both to Talk:Israel–Hamas_war#Indirect_casualties_from_the_Lancet_study, can continue there. Selfstudier (talk) 19:03, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Citation style

I'm a bit dissatisfied with the current citation style of the article. I've been working on what I consider a "fix" in a personal sandbox for a bit but after mentioning it to a couple of people I've realized I should probably seek some input on this before trying to unilaterally implement it.

So there are two sections that contain citations, "References" and "Works cited". "References" is a mix of full citations and short citations, and "Works cited" contains the full citations referred to by the short citations in "References". I feel it would be cleaner and more consistent, if we're going to have both of these sections, to consistently use both: to have inline citations be short footnote citations that go into "References", which point to full citations in "Works cited" (which would then actually contain, as the name suggests, all the works cited, instead of just some of them as it does currently).

Implementing this would mostly just be a matter of copying and pasting the existing inline full citations down into the "Works cited" section and replacing the deleted inline citations with short citations. What do y'all think? Tagging in major contributors Cdjp1, WillowCity, CarmenEsparzaAmoux, David A, Jayen466, and ABHammad. Kinsio (talk ★ contribs ★ rights) 18:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fully support, it is my preferred style, but I tend to avoid trying to convert pages whole-sale to it, as other editors have shown to have strong opinions on this matter. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I see no reason not to follow a single and widespread standard. Rkieferbaum (talk) 13:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source reliability

I've opened a discussion at RSN on the reliability of the source "Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential", which cited in this article: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Off wiki

Just putting this here for everyone’s notice: [57] Makeandtoss (talk) 21:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uh huh, I was noticing stuff, that explains it, at least in part, probably other things going on too. Selfstudier (talk) 22:03, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A quick browse of the comments shows a lot of "issues" pointed to are things that have been changed from weeks ago to months ago, so prior to the name change change that kicked off the thread yesterday. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty blatant invitation to visit this page, tho. Selfstudier (talk) 10:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers?

"By March 2024, after five months of attacks, Israeli military action had resulted in the deaths of over 31,500 Palestinians – 1 out of every 75 people in Gaza – averaging 195 killings a day, and nearly 40,000 confirmed deaths by July."

Even if we assume that Hamas' own numbers are broadly correct (which we shouldn't, because it don't distinguish between civilian and combatant casualties, and have been repeatedly proven be largely just invented), that doesn’t seem to even come close to genocide. Why are we even indulging this ludicrous nonsense? There’s 2 million Palestinians in Gaza, about 40,000 of whom are members of Hamas, many more being members of other groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other Jihadi groups.

The Allies forces killed more than 300,000 German civilians in the Second World War. Was that a genocide? Or, as I and most people believe, an unfortunate but acceptable price to pay for the destruction of the Nazi regime? KronosAlight (talk) 22:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And Israel has killed more people in such a short timeframe than in the entire Bosnian genocide. It has killed more people than the bombings of Dresden and London combined. The amount of deaths is not particularly relevant, it is based on the scholarly perspectives avaliable to us that revolve around the idea of "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", which is not what the Allies were doing in World War II. But rather than us have a personal debate, for the sake of an encyclopedia, we go on reliable sources and the perspectives/information they provide. As it stands, they are presenting the same arguments articulated in the article. We have already had numerous debates on this on the talk page if you scroll further back. Ecpiandy (talk) 00:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As per previous rulings on the Genocide Convention, and better frameworks used by genocide scholars, combatants can, and have, been counted as victims of genocide. So, if this is a genocide, the combatant-civilian distinction is not one to be considered. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Violation of WP:NPOV on recent edits

In order to prevent a WP:EDITWAR, I feel it is best to discuss the issue here before engaging in any further edits. The recent changes do not attempt to provide a neutral perspective at all, it is just an attempted pro-Israeli framing of arguments. Similar to the arguments on Talk:Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre#stop_adding_"Hamas-run"_and_"Hamas_controlled", please gain consensus and talk through it here before making such changes. Ecpiandy (talk) 00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources almost without exception attribute the number of casualties; we can't put them in wikivoice
Sources consider the fact that Hamas controls the GHM important information, and every RfC we have had on this topic, as far as I know, has found a consensus to include clarification, although the exact wording may vary
Whether there is a famine or not is relevant, particularly since recent reporting found that the situation was not as dire as previously thought
A clarification of the ICJ ruling by the person who was the head of the ICJ at the time it was issued is highly relevant.

I previously overlooked "Some sources have hypothesised that there may be" and have no objection to removing it. Similarly, "though it is not known who was responsible" overstates things, and while we need to acknowledge that hundreds to thousands have died by friendly fire, the vast majority have been killed by Israeli fire. BilledMammal (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1st issue: "Hamas-run Health ministry" is typically used in pro-Israeli sources to de-legitimise the reliability of what are traditionally seen as reliable statistics by NGOs and the United Nations in relation to historic Palestinian deaths. Similarly, we do not typically cite the organisation in control when considering deaths in other conflicts. You would not say the "Conservative-run Ministry of Health said x civilians died" in relation to the Falklands War. Yes, Hamas is an abhorrent organisation but it is very loaded language to use on a WP:NPOV article. This similar logic can be used against the "Like in all wars, " argument too. I see an overarching consensus did not seem to be reached in the previous discussion on this either. Would like more opinions on this from others. Ecpiandy (talk) 01:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While pro-Israeli sources do use that language, and pro-Palestinian sources do not, it is widely used by less partisan sources, such as the BBC, al Monitor, Le Monde, France24, Haaretz, Sky News, WION, Bloomberg, Arab News, and many others.

Why the sources do this isn't relevant to us, but I believe it's because its not self-evident that the Health Ministry is controlled by Hamas, while in other conflicts it usually is self-evident that, for example, the British Ministry of Health is controlled by the British government. BilledMammal (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it usually is self-evident that, for example, the British Ministry of Health is controlled by the British government is the incorrect comparison, as that would be comparable to the Gaza Ministry of Health is controlled by the Government of Gaza, whereas Hamas-run Ministry of Health is equivalent to Tory-run Ministry of Health. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of the other issues, I will come back to it later when I have more time. Ecpiandy (talk) 01:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, no and no. We don't normally say: "Democrat-run health ministry", "Labour-run Department of Health", etc., unless with an intent of denigrating these institutions. Sure, the Gaza government is currently under political influence of the Hamas party. However, Gaza Government is not Hamas, just like His Majesty's Government ≠ UK Labour Party. Parties come and go, civil servants stay. Besides, it's been repeated ad nauseam that Gaza MoH reporting is widely considered reliable. To present them as guilty by association is an appalling manipulation technique worthy of propaganda outlets, not of encyclopaedias. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Parties come and go, civil servants stay. In Gaza? I don't think a lot of Fatah civil servants stayed to serve in the Hamas administration; I think they got executed. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Anyway, we don't say "Democrat-run health ministry" or "Labour-run Department of Health" because the sources don't say that; if they did, we would, too. The only relevant question is whether the balance of sources do or do not include "Hamas-run" before "health ministry" (or similar). BBC does, CNN doesn't, I have no idea which approach is currently more common. It's easy to string together a list of 5 or 10 sources that do, or do not; much harder is putting together a comprehensive survey of the top media sources to see if there is a clear majority practice or not. Not that anybody needs to convince me, but what would convince me, is a table showing the whole alphabet soup plus newspapers of record from a number of different countries. That's kind of a lot of work and I'm not sure if it's worth it. But the answer is in usage by sources; it doesn't matter if it's fair, or if MoH is reliable, or if we do it for other countries; it only matters if the RS do it or not. Levivich (talk) 04:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Contentious labels stipulates that any contentious label such as association with a terrorist group should be avoided or else attributed to the source. In this case, Hamas being designated as a terrorist group by several countries, including the US, is a contentious label and should be avoided unless a reliable source explicitly states that the "Gaza Health Ministry is acting as a propaganda agency to advance Hamas' terrorism," which is clearly not the case. Additionally, sources designated as "generally reliable" do not have permanent immunity for every statement they make, which should be judged on a case by case basis. At least Mondoweiss opinionated that "Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry" serves to "demonize Palestinians, subconsciously divert the sympathy of readers from the horrific and rising Palestinian death toll and ultimately justify the Israeli genocide in Gaza^[1]". (And Mondoweiss is neither reliable nor unreliable per our recent RfC.) -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 06:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
any contentious label such as association with a terrorist group No, it does not say that, it says nothing about "association with". "Hamas" is not a contentious label. Levivich (talk) 12:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think a lot of Fatah civil servants stayed to serve in the Hamas administration; I think they got executed. Gaza Strip administration counts around 82,000 civil servants[58]. Can you kindly point me to a source describing 82,000 executions? Or even 82 executions? — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you really not aware that Hamas executes political dissenters/opponents, and that Hamas and Fatah fought a war? (Battle of Gaza (2007)) Hamas is not a political party like the ones in the US and UK. Hamas oppresses Gazans with violence, this is not news or a controversial statement. And the Gaza govt isn't "currently under the influence of" Hamas, the Gaza govt is Hamas. (Hamas government in the Gaza Strip) Here is what happens to people in Gaza who speak out against Hamas: an example from last week. Hamas is not like the Democrats or Labour. It's not a multi-party system in Gaza with professional civil servants working for different parties like in the West. I don't even think they've had a second election yet. Levivich (talk) 13:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'Hamas-run' is undoubtedly the default qualifier of any institution in the Gaza Strip in Western mainstream sources. There it functions as a reminded that everything in Gaza is run by terrorists, since 'Hamas= (nothing but) terrorists' is by now a standard implication. That Hamas has executed its opponents is true (2007 however is a far more complex situation than your ref to it allows). Israel has historically executed by targeted assassinations numerous (Palestinian) opponents, and treated those thousands it holds in administrative detention, without trial, with the extreme violence we associate with non-democratic countries, ( Bassam Aramin, who for 7 years was, despite his quietism, along with many other detainees regularly summoned for a thorough thrashing by prison guards (Apeirogon), something that is ongoing at places like Sde Teiman) or as in the case with several Palestinian exponents of Gandhian non-violence, expulsion from the West Bank as terrorists'(Mubarak Awad etc.) By the analogy I am not putting them on a par. Every state, whatever the parallels, is unique.

Hamas is certainly not anything like a Western political party, agreed. But what that kind of pointy qualification does is elide any awareness that it remains a movement with a long history of political negotiations (on this, some familiarity with Menachem Klein's studies is necessary, e.g., at least here, here and here) with its adversary, and has long experience also administering Gaza, policing it, distributing resources, running hospitals, schools and civil development projects, as every governing body does. 'Hamas-run' is tautologously pointy, as much as the U.S.-run Veterans Health Administration would be. All governing parties run the (state) institutions their election appoints them to administer. I state that with zero-sympathy for the movement, as opposed to an attempt to try and grasp how it developed the way it did, which should be approached unhysterically, in the most neutral terms possible, something that is far more difficult to do than just accepting the standard memes circulating in many if not RS. By the way, your 'here's an example from last week' (fopr which thanks, I didn't catch that) is effortlessly parallelable with this. Both are repulsive in their different ways. Nishidani (talk) 13:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I very much agree that Hamas does not have a monopoly on, nor is it even particularly unique in its use of, political violence. All kinds of governments do that, including Israel and Western governments, including my own (USA), which has plenty of examples in recent history of prisoner abuse, torture, extra-judicial assassination (a euphemism we use for "execution"), and such.

Two points I would add: first, a terrorist organization is perfectly capable of accurately counting the dead. Second, non-terrorist governments are perfectly capable of inflating or deflating casualty counts to suit their political or propaganda goals. So "Hamas-run" doesn't mean "unreliable" to me (though I recognize that it probably does mean that to many members of the public, and that some who use that phrase are counting on this inference being drawn), nor do I have any reason to believe Israel's (or America's) casualty counts any more than Hamas's or Hezbollah's or anyone else (though I recognize I'm probably in the minority on that view).

However, I'm not so sure that "Hamas-run" is still the default qualifier in Western mainstream media. I've never done the full analysis, but my impression just as an ordinary news junkie is that this has changed over the course of the war. I looked today at three recent articles from some MSM, and CNN [59] [60] [61], NBC [62] [63] [64], AP [65] [66] [67], Reuters [68] [69] [70], and CBC [71] [72] [73] do not say "Hamas-run" before "Gaza Health Ministry" (or similar), they just say "according to the territory's Health Ministry" or "according to Gaza health officials," or something like that. BBC [74] [75] [76], ABC [77] [78] (can't find a third recent article under their own byline), and CBS [79] [80] [81] still use "Hamas-run" or similar ("Hamas-aligned," "Hamas-controlled"). I think if we did this analysis for more MSM, we could figure out what the prevailing usage is. Levivich (talk) 19:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I bow to your superior googling skills, but it always strikes me as the default term whenever Ynet and The Times of israel mention it. In any case, I've no problem with accepting that Hamas has engaged in terror. That is just registering the obvious. I do have one when it is defined as a 'terrorist organization'. That primary definition is very much a political determination by Israel and its Western allies, the most prominent of which engaged in massive terror (the war on Iraq). State actors, particularly those with an imperial cast (U.S.Russia, China) define 'terrorism' as a characteristic of the non-state actors who challenge their interests, and Israel not only imitated this but worked intensely to have this designation adopted in the E.U. and the Anglophone axis of the U.S. Canada and Australia, thus placing Hamas (and Hezbollah) outside the pale of legitimate negotiating parties. Menachem Klein goes a long way towards telling us how relentlessly consistent a few interested states have been in sabotaging Hamas's attempts at political negotiations. It's no secret that Netanyahu's endless disruption of negotiations rides publicly on an avowed refusal to negotiate with terrorists, even if the probable reason there is that he must string things along until Nov.4. Sorry for this screed. It's probably off-topic since I'm not editing the page.Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You pretty much explained youself why "Hamas-run" is a contentious label for GHM. How can you compile data under active treat of a terrorist group while your figures being accepted as uncompromised/unbiased/undercount by other reliabled sources, except for Israel and its political allies? -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 13:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hamas-run is not a "contentious label" (a Wikipedia term) because it's not contentious. Nobody disputes that MoH is Hamas-run. People do dispute whether Hamas is a "terrorist" organization. That's why "terrorist" is contentious (it is contended) but "Hamas-run" is not. (Also, it's not a label.) The argument here is about NPOV -- whether "Hamas-run" is due and neutral (as Wikipedia defines those terms) -- not about WTW. Levivich (talk) 13:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Give me a reliable source which actually opposes Hamas' terrorist designation by the US and Israel. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 13:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So there's this website called Wikipedia that has an article about Hamas that has sources about this stuff. Levivich (talk) 13:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about we stop spinning our wheels duplicating the same discussion on a different talk page yet again and throw together an RFC for NPOVN? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to entertain your sarcasm, but I have found no reliable source challenging Hamas' terrorist designation, not even Al Jazeera: they simply states the plain truth about the designation. I think I have to emphasize one point: countries don't designate Hamas as a terrorist doesn't mean they oppose the designation by other countries. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 13:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can we have a formal RfC to determine the application of "Hamas-run" label for GHM to settle this dispute? -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 07:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm all for it. — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. Altho we have had umpteen discussions already about GHM reliability and always conclude that GHM is reliable. Plus we have RS demonstrating that this addition is simply Israeli propaganda at work, see Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 44#"Hamas-run" Merely because some RS use this label does not mean that WP needs to, it's purpose seems clear, to cast doubt on GHM reliability. Selfstudier (talk) 12:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the intent is to have this cover a wide array of articles I'd suggest it take place at WP:NPOVN and be widely advertised. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea, I think Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 418#Are Hamas and Gaza ministry numbers reliable? was a recent noticeboard go round. Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And see Talk:Gaza Health Ministry#RfC - criticism of AbrahammWyner's article. Selfstudier (talk) 12:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In all those discussions, there hasn't yet been an RfC? Yes, absolutely, there should be one. Levivich (talk) 12:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should the RFC be at the Gaza Health Ministry talk page? Selfstudier (talk) 15:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then the question could be

"Should the lead include the phrase "Hamas-run" at any point?"

And of course, advertise this all over the shop including NPOVN, projects, centralized, etc. Selfstudier (talk) 17:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Selfstudier, WP:NPOVN. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did look there but everything there seems to assume some article as the subject of discussion, rather than many articles? Why don't you do it, if you think it's possible. Selfstudier (talk) 17:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly because I'm on my phone and I'm going to butcher a duck when I finish my mai tai. I'll get to it later if no one else does. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May I suggest this will not be productive until/unless someone who wishes to make the case that Wikipedia should/shouldn't put "Hamas-run" before "Gaza Health Ministry" (or similar) gathers the sources to show that including/excluding the phrase is what RS does. Otherwise, it's just going to be a bunch of argumentation without sourcing. There is no way around doing the research to answer the question, in my view. Levivich (talk) 18:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The RFC will run for at least 30 days, so there's plenty of time for sourcing analysis. I'd rather do something than let this continue to be an issue across a pile of articles. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you'd rather do something, feel free to flip through some news sources and see if they use the phrase. I've already checked CNN, ABC, NBC and CBS (and will post links here shortly), so those can be skipped. The 30 days of RFC will be productively spent if they begin with a source analysis, not if the source analysis happens part-way through. Before there are sources to examine, there is nothing to discuss. Levivich (talk) 18:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well we know AP does it "not always" (lol). Selfstudier (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Think the Beeb uses it pretty much all the time, have to check tho. Selfstudier (talk) 18:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Guardian doesn't, latest report on the Deif strike thing "the health ministry in the Hamas-administered territory", "Gaza’s health ministry said.." Selfstudier (talk) 18:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beeb def still does (see links in my reply to Nish above). So maybe the thing to do is to put together a list somewhere (here? the GHM article?) and then launch an RFC at NPOVN? I think NPOVN is the right place for multi-article issues like this. We'll have to advertise it on the talk pages of all the articles (and probably the WikiProjects for good measure). Levivich (talk) 19:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SFR is gonna do it (post duck and mai tai). Selfstudier (talk) 19:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is true, otoh, one can argue that the ONUS is on those wishing to add the qualifier, it's not there on the GHM article, for instance. But then, it keeps being added here or there regardless of ONUS and back to square one. Also does it solely depend on what the majority RS are doing? If there are sources showing that this is motivated by propaganda efforts, that's a part of it, too, isn't it? Selfstudier (talk) 18:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly it depends on is subject to community consensus and how the closer reads the discussion. At least when it's done we'll have a community's consensus to work from rather than local consensus across dozens of articles. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I don't think it matters if it's motivated by propaganda efforts, or by racism, or by journalistic integrity... what matters is whether "Hamas-run" it's a significant WP:ASPECT of the GMH casualty figures. Just my opinion on it, but I see it as a very binary question: if almost all sources put "Hamas-run" before "health ministry," then we should. If almost all sources don't, then we don't. If it's like a 50/50 split, then we have a difficult decision to make. And maybe in that instance, come to think of it, other considerations -- like propaganda -- would be relevant. (But I don't think it's a 50/50 split.) Levivich (talk) 18:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is very 50/50, and from an encyclopaedic point of view, it is very much against WP:NOV to put "Hamas-run". Keep it as it is. Ecpiandy (talk) 02:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know we cannot use personal opinions, but we all know it is a genocide. Everyone reading this knows it. Keep it as it is. Ecpiandy (talk) 02:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

we all know it is a genocide We don't know that because not all sources say that, let's keep things on an even keel here. Selfstudier (talk) 08:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Western media's reference to the 'Hamas-run' Health Ministry is another dehumanizing tactic enabling Israel's genocide", Mondoweiss, 2023-12-29

Inconsistent language

Hopefully I'm not the only person noticing this. The lead for Rohingya genocide reads: "The Rohingya genocide is a series of ontoing persecutions and killings of the Muslim Rohingya people by the military of Myanmar". The lead for this article reads: "Israel has been accused by experts, governments, UN agencies and non-governmental organizations of carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian population during its invasion and bombing of the Gaza strip".

Make it make sense. This kind of language in a lead reads as if we have to walk on eggshells when trying to even call it a genocide. It is clearly different from the language used for other ongoing genocides. This is just one of many examples. — Snoteleks (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, while the move to Gaza genocide has been made with the Tamil genocide in mind, it hasn't quite followed through in the spirit of that article. --NFSreloaded (talk) 08:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument. The title by itself does not mean that Israel is carrying out a genocide as a fact, it means, in this particular case, that lots of people are saying it is and there is a court case at the ICJ making that accusation. The title here means that the "Gaza genocide" is a topic of discussion, the WP:SCOPE of the article is the title plus the first sentence(s). Selfstudier (talk) 08:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier How do you explain that calling the "Gaza genocide" a genocide is up for discussion even after explicitly referencing all the organizations that unanimously agree it is a genocide? How do you explain that any other genocide doesn't get the same treatment of being questioned as a genocide? — Snoteleks (talk) 13:46, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean, I am going by the sourcing that is in the article and the recent RM, "neither side achieved a consensus on the question of which title is favoured by WP:POVTITLE". Nor do I care what the position is with other genocide articles (other than the "parent" article Palestinian genocide accusation), I am only interested in this article right here. Selfstudier (talk) 14:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One can refer to Genocides in history (21st century), the Israel/Palestine entry there starts off "Israel has been accused of inciting or carrying out genocide against the Palestinians." just like the article here.

Of course it is possible that as time passes, what is occurring in Gaza may come to be recognized as a genocide even without the benefit of an ICJ ruling, I don't think that is the position right now tho. Selfstudier (talk) 14:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier What is occurring in Gaza is already being recognized as a genocide by all accounts, the lead of the article says so itself. Consensus has been reached, debate has ended. — Snoteleks (talk) 19:34, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead says it is an accusation, it does not state that it is a genocide, nor should it. I find it quite odd that advocates for either side are arguing that the title means it is a genocide, it doesn't. Selfstudier (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier "Nor should it" how so? Do we now have to disclose that Taiwan is being "accused" of being a country? What reasons do you have to be against it being stated as exactly what it is? — Snoteleks (talk) 21:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, apparently you would like to add material to the article asserting in WP voice that the events in Gaza amount to a genocide. Well go ahead and add that. And I don't care about Taiwan, either. Selfstudier (talk) 21:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do you explain that any other genocide doesn't get the same treatment of being questioned as a genocide? Um, "But was it a genocide?" is probably the most common question asked in the entire field of genocide studies. Levivich (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think the Rohingya and Gaza articles are similar. There is currently a discussion to merge the Rohingya article with Persecution of Muslims in Myanmar. Also the Persecution of Uyghurs in China article used to be called Uyghur genocide (the Chinese government considered the Uyghur political violence in Xinjiang to be terrorism and implemented controversial policies), but the Uyghur article title was changed to persecution. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You raise an interesting point there I am almost certain I could justify an article on persecution as a fact, that's one of the ICC charges on the pending warrants. Persecution is a virtual slam dunk compared to the bar for legally proving genocide. Selfstudier (talk) 15:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wafflefrites Are you saying that the government that's allegedly persecuting Uyghurs is the reason why the article title changed from genocide to persecution? — Snoteleks (talk) 19:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Snoteleks No, Wikipedia editors decide on articles titles, not governments. You were comparing the Rohingya genocide article to this one. I was pointing out that there is a merge discussion on that article into an article on persecution. I then gave another example where another Wikipedia article title was changed from “genocide” to “persecution”. My point, was that I think the articles are different and therefore I don’t think the language should be the same, unless you want to add persecution to the Gaza genocide article. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Snoteleks Also, in regards to the “alleged persecution”, I am curious what category or language you would use to describe forced sterilization and “reeducation camps”? Wafflefrites (talk) 20:36, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wafflefrites If you find a problem with the use of the term "alleged", you should also find a problem with the use of the term "accused of", since both very evidently make the statement subjective and therefore not encyclopedic, despite there being an objective consensus. I would use genocide in both instances, by the way. — Snoteleks (talk) 21:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Snoteleks There are actually MOS guidelines for this, see MOS:ALLEGED and WP:WIKIVOICE. I need to edit the Uyghur article, as I just noticed alleged is in the lead of that article. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wafflefrites Excellent, so the manual of style supports us not using such language. Therefore we should change this article's lead as well. — Snoteleks (talk) 23:18, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Snoteleks "Accused" and "alleged" are words to watch that can introduce bias and doubt, but I think you need to use critical thinking/judgment and look at the context. For the Uyghur article, "alleged" was used twice in the lead, but I only removed the first instance. In that article, I changed "The alleged abuses" to "There have been reports of", but I kept "the crimes alleged appeared to have been". I did that because according to the Manual of Style, "alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined". So in some cases, "alleged/accused" can be used. The multiple independent reports of abuses from past victims seemed to be well documented so they did not seem to be undetermined, but I kept "alleged" in regards to crimes because I think crime is different from abuse.

MOS:ACCUSED is a guideline, but WP:WIKIVOICE is a policy, so we should try to follow the policy more than the guideline. WP:WIKIVOICE says to avoid stating opinion as facts. In some articles I have read, experts have "warned" of genocide which I think is different from saying there is genocide. In this Vox article, some of the words used are "warned", "risk of", "sound the alarm about the possibility." [82]. This article says "scholars are torn", "risk of", "do not meet the very high threshold that is required to meet the legal definition of genocide”[83] which leads me to consider WP:SOURCESDIFFER: if there are some experts warning of the possibility/risk of genocide, and other experts saying there is genocide, that's different. Therefore, I think the easiest way to re-write the first sentence if you want to avoid using the word "accused" and following policy and guideline is: "A number of experts, governments, UN agencies and non-governmental organisations have said that Israel is or may be carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian population during its invasion and bombing of the Gaza Strip during the ongoing Israel–Hamas war." Wafflefrites (talk) 00:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, the article Palestinian genocide accusation exists and it's first sentence is "The State of Israel has been accused of carrying out or inciting genocide against Palestinians during the Israeli–Palestinian conflict." Together, the title and that sentence constitute the WP:SCOPE and it is clear that the word accusation is not a problem there at all. Nor is it here, especially since there is an ongoing court case, where using accusation is more common. Selfstudier (talk) 08:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that works too. I was giving an example of how you could rewrite the sentence if you don’t want to use “accused” Wafflefrites (talk) 15:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RFC of interest

Please see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#RFC - Gaza Health Ministry qualifier. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scholarly articles on Gaza in the Journal of Genocide Research

The Journal of Genocide Research has published a considerable number of articles on Gaza this year. See an overview of recent articles here. The following are Wikipedia Library links:

Inescapably Genocidal, Martin Shaw, 3 Jan 2024
“We are Fighting Nazis”: Genocidal Fashionings of Gaza(ns) After 7 October, Zoé Samudzi, 18 Jan 2024
The Futility of Genocide Studies After Gaza, Abdelwahab El-Affendi, 18 Jan 2024
Gaza 2023: Words Matter, Lives Matter More, Mark Levene, 21 Jan 2024
Screaming, Silence, and Mass Violence in Israel/Palestine, Uğur Ümit Üngör, 26 Jan 2024
Gaza as a Laboratory 2.0, Shmuel Lederman, 29 Jan 2024
The Rhetoric of Denial: Contribution to an Archive of the Debate about Mass Violence in Gaza, Didier Fassin, 5 Feb 2024
Gaza as Twilight of Israel Exceptionalism: Holocaust and Genocide Studies from Unprecedented Crisis to Unprecedented Change, Raz Segal & Luigi Daniele, 5 Mar 2024
A “Tragic Humanitarian Crisis”: Israel’s Weaponization of Starvation and the Question of Intent, Jessica Whyte, 17 Apr 2024
Expert Commentary, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, and the Question of Genocide: Prosemitic Bias within a Scholarly Community?, Omar Shahabudin McDoom, 25 Apr 2024
Genocide and Resistance in Palestine under Law's Shadow, Maryam Jamshidi, 6 May 2024
A Threshold Crossed: On Genocidal Intent and the Duty to Prevent Genocide in Palestine, Nimer Sultany, 9 May 2024
Understanding Sexual Violence Debates Since 7 October: Weaponization and Denial, Anwar Mhajne, 30 May 2024
Genocidal Mirroring in Israel/Palestine, Yoav Di-Capua, 5 Jun 2024

Some of these might make useful sources for the present article. --Andreas JN 466 13:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been working through them since their first publications:

In article
In article
In article
In article
In article
In article
In article
In article
Not in article
Not in article
Not in article
Not in article
Not in article
Not in article

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cdjp1 Thanks for the listing, good to know! Andreas JN 466 12:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= oder |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The 1st source doesn't actually accuse Israel of committing (or more precisely, 'having committed') a genocide, the 'experts' (more like 'UN officials' (incl. Fransesca Albanese and her ilk)) simply say they 'fear a genocide could happen' (if other entities don't intervene). The 3rd source is relying on the Lancet report which as this talk page discussion has established, is talking about a projected genocide. All in all, the sources show a small amount of 'entities' accusing Israel of committing, or having committed, a genocide and the lead should reflect that.

References

^ "Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people". OHCHR. 16 November 2023. Archived from the original on 24 December 2023. Retrieved 22 December 2023. Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to "destroy the Palestinian people under occupation", loud calls for a 'second Nakba' in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.
^ Burga 2023; Corder 2024
^ Quigley, John (3 July 2024). "The Lancet and Genocide By "Slow Death" in Gaza". Arab Center Washington DC. Retrieved 13 July 2024.

Emdosis (talk) 00:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. There is a majority of sourcing making the accusation at the very least, which is what the material says. Also one could argue equally that it is "some" governments, "some" UN agencies etcetera but the fact is that there is a consensus in expert sourcing. Selfstudier (talk) 09:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll

The death toll moves over time and slowly becomes outdated, especially as the Gaza Health Ministry is unable to count deaths as well as it did early in the conflict due to most hospitals (where deaths are counted by them) being damaged, overwhelmed, or destroyed entirely. According to a recent study, the current deaths could be 186,000 now.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/8/gaza-toll-could-exceed-186000-lancet-study-says ReiPeixe (talk) 11:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is already subject of discussions. Selfstudier (talk) 12:20, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible influx of new editors

Just over an hour ago on the Israel discussion board of the Reddit website, someone has, in a post targeting the very awful "Gaza Genocide" article, calls on people to create a Wikipedia account, as I/P issues are so one sided right now it is actually disgusting---I really wish more people would join in this fight in setting the "Narrative". starship .paint (RUN) 06:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

War, not genocide

The claims of genocide have been debunked again and again. The death toll has been shown to be much lower than terrorist organization Hamas, aka Gaza health ministry, claims. Hamas's charter is genocidal against Jews worldwide. NancySchrader (talk) 06:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Komnenic, Ana (2 December 2023). "Experts, advocates deeply divided on question of 'genocide' in Gaza". CBC. Archived from the original on 14 January 2024. Retrieved 31 December 2023.

[2] International human rights clinic, Boston University School of Law; International human rights clinic, Cornell Law School; Centre for human rights, University of Pretoria; Lowenstein human rights project, Yale Law School (15 May 2024). Genocide in Gaza: Analysis of international law and its application to Israel's military actions since October 7, 2023 (PDF) (Report). University Network for Human Rights.

[Bouranova-3] Bouranova, Alene (6 June 2024). "Is Israel Committing Genocide in Gaza? New Report from BU School of Law's International Human Rights Clinic Lays Out Case". Boston University. Archived from the original on 5 June 2024. Retrieved 7 June 2024. The opposition is political, as there is consensus amongst the international human rights legal community, many other legal and political experts, including many Holocaust scholars, that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

[4] Gessen, Masha (7 February 2024). "The Limits of Accusing Israel of Genocide". The New Yorker.

[5] ttps://www.yahoo.com/news/white-house-sees-no-genocide-015411552.html

[6] ttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/24/americans-believe-israel-committing-genocide-poll#:~:text=Almost%20half%20of%20those%20surveyed,%2C%20while%2030%25%20are%20undecided.

[7] ttps://www.wcvb.com/article/israel-ukraine-support-national-poll-umass-wcvb/46649804

[8] ttps://www.jpost.com/us-elections/article-800603

[9] ttps://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/5/8/support-for-a-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-increases-across-party-lines

[10] ttps://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/young-americans-think-israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza/3122535

[11] ttps://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/48442-has-genocide-been-happening-israel-gaza-americans-split-holocaust-native-americans-ukraine-poll

[12] ttps://www.ajc.org/news/5-reasons-why-the-events-in-gaza-are-not-genocide

[13] ttps://www.thefhm.org/pressroom/no-protesters-israel-is-not-committing-genocide/

[14] ttps://www.aei.org/op-eds/israel-is-not-committing-genocide-in-gaza/

[15] Cloud, David (February 27, 2024). "As Israel Drives Out Hamas, Lawlessness Hampers Gaza Aid Efforts". The Wall Street Journal.

[16] Ravid, Barak (Feb 29, 2024). "Dozens of Palestinians killed in incident around Gaza aid convoy". Axios. Archived from the original on 4 March 2024. Retrieved 4 March 2024.

[:8-17] Le Masurier, Jessica. "'Flour massacre': Aid delivery turns deadly in Gaza as UN warns famine 'almost inevitable'". www.msn.com. Archived from the original on 25 April 2024. Retrieved 16 March 2024.

[:9-18] Le Masurier, Jessica; Khaled, Fatma (March 2024). "'Flour Massacre': Lifesaving Aid Becomes a Deadly Struggle in Gaza". PassBlue. Archived from the original on 2 March 2024. Retrieved 16 March 2024.

[19] Al-Mughrabi, Nidal (March 19, 2024). "Palestinian clans and factions step in to protect Gaza aid, sources say". Reuters.

[:6-20] Yee, Vivian; Boxerman, Aaron (2024-06-19). "Anarchy Hinders Gaza Aid Efforts, Despite Daily Combat Pause". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2024-06-26.

[:5-21] "Israel's pledge to guard an aid route into Gaza falls flat as lawlessness blocks distribution". AP News. 2024-06-20. Retrieved 2024-06-26.

[22] "UN tells Israel it will suspend aid operations across Gaza without improved safety". AP News. 25 June 2024. Retrieved 26 June 2024.

[:4-23] "Famine Review Committee: Review of the Famine Early Warning Systems Network (FEWS NET) IPC-Compatible Analysis for the Northern Governorates of the Gaza Strip" (PDF). Integrated Food Security Phase Classification. May 2024.

[FRC-24] "FAMINE REVIEW COMMITTEE: GAZA STRIP, JUNE 2024" (PDF). Retrieved 24 June 2024.

[25] "Western media's reference to the 'Hamas-run' Health Ministry is another dehumanizing tactic enabling Israel's genocide", Mondoweiss, 2023-12-29

[ohchr-26] "Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people". OHCHR. 16 November 2023. Archived from the original on 24 December 2023. Retrieved 22 December 2023. Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to "destroy the Palestinian people under occupation", loud calls for a 'second Nakba' in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.

[27] Burga 2023; Corder 2024

[28] Quigley, John (3 July 2024). "The Lancet and Genocide By "Slow Death" in Gaza". Arab Center Washington DC. Retrieved 13 July 2024.

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@@ Line 1,580: / Line 1,580: @@
 Just over an hour ago on the Israel discussion board of the Reddit website, someone has, in a [https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1e7o7gu/if_you_care_about_the_truth_create_a_wikipedia/ post] targeting the {{red|very awful "Gaza Genocide" article}}, calls on people to {{red|create a Wikipedia account}}, as {{red|I/P issues are so one sided right now it is actually disgusting---I really wish more people would join in this fight in setting the "Narrative".}} '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|RUN]])''' 06:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
+== War, not genocide  ==
+The claims of genocide have been debunked again and again. The death toll has been shown to be much lower than terrorist organization Hamas, aka Gaza health ministry, claims. Hamas's charter is genocidal against Jews worldwide. [[User:NancySchrader|NancySchrader]] ([[User talk:NancySchrader|talk]]) 06:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)